Straight from the title, “Hidden Apartheid: Caste Discrimination against India’s Untouchables,” you know that the new report from Human Rights Watch (HRW) out today is pulling no punches when it comes to qualifying the extent and seriousness of anti-Dalit discrimination in India today. The comparison with apartheid gained significant political cover two months ago when the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, drew the link in public remarks at a conference in Delhi. Here’s the prime minister:
Singh said: “Dalits have faced a unique discrimination in our society that is fundamentally different from the problems of minority groups in general. The only parallel to the practice of untouchability is apartheid,” he said. “Untouchability is not just social discrimination, it is a blot on humanity,” Singh said.
Calling for a “political, social, cultural and intellectual battle,” against such discrimination, the PM noted that constitutional and administrative measures alone are not sufficient. “Our government is deeply and sincerely committed to the equality of all sections of our society and will take all necessary steps to help in the social, educational and economic empowerment of Dalits. This is our solemn commitment,” Singh said.
Of course the gap between legal remediation and actual practice has been precisely the problem for 57 years, since the Constitution in 1950 outlawed untouchability in all its forms, with further legislation added over the years. The continuing discrimination against Dalits also violates the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, to which India is a signatory, as the convention covers not just what its title narrowly suggests but in fact “race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.” At any rate, this gap between theory in practice is well known, and the problem has always been to end the actual practices of discrimination, violence, and humiliation that Dalits encounter across India to degrees that perhaps (probably) vary by region and locality but are never, ever trivial.
Consider a few choice quotes from the report’s summary (you can download it or read the whole report online here):
DalitsÂ’ fundamental civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights are routinely violated by state actors and private individuals, in violation of Article 5 of the Convention. Caste-motivated killings, rapes, and other abuses are a daily occurrence in India, resulting in routine violations of DalitsÂ’ right to security of person and protection of the state. The police have systematically failed to protect Dalit homes and Dalit individuals from acts of looting, arson, sexual assault, torture, and other inhumane acts such as the tonsuring, stripping and parading of Dalit women, and forcing Dalits to drink urine and eat feces. surveyed. …
India has failed to address the multiple forms of discrimination faced by Dalit women. Even as compared to Dalit men, Dalit women do not have equal access to employment opportunities or justice mechanisms. They must contend with threats to their personal security, including trafficking and sexual violence. In some states in India, Dalit women are forced into prostitution under the devadasi system and are ultimately auctioned off to urban brothels. This puts them at particular risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. …
The right to own property is systematically denied to Dalits. Landlessness—encompassing a lack of access to land, inability to own land, and forced evictions—constitutes a crucial element in the subordination of Dalits. Land reform legislation is neither implemented nor properly enforced. When Dalits do manage to acquire land, access to it is often denied. …
The denial of the right to work and free choice of employment lies at the very heart of the caste system. Dalits are forced to perform tasks deemed too “polluting” or degrading for non-Dalits. According to unofficial estimates, more than 1.3 million Dalits—mostly women—are employed as manual scavengers to clear human waste from dry pit latrines. Dalits comprise the majority of agricultural, bonded, and child laborers in the country. …
Manual scavengers are routinely exposed to both human and animal waste without proper protection. This has severe repercussions for their health; most suffer from anemia, diarrhea, vomiting, and respiratory diseases. In many cities, Dalits clear sewage blockages without protective gear. Over 100 die each year from inhaling toxic gases or from drowning in excrement.
The difficult thing is that much of the discrimination against Dalits is well known and considered a fact of life. This isn’t the kind of report that breaks major news that everyone can immediately mobilize around. Rather, it’s a compendium of practices and contradictions and hypocrisies that are all too often recognized individually but either shrugged away as a whole, or, just as often, so daunting in their totality that it’s hard to know what to do. Besides, the only effective political mobilization against these practices will come from Dalits themselves, which means overcoming patterns of intimidation and resignation that are age-old and surmounting a collective action problem of enormous magnitude.
The principal author of the NRW report is a desi sister. Her name is Smita Narula and she is an assistant professor of clinical law at NYU, having previously worked at HRW as their senior researcher for South Asia. You can read more about her here. She also has an audio clip in English and Hindi on the organization’s website in which she states the principal findings and the importance of the issue.
Dalits have faced a unique discrimination in our society that is fundamentally different from the problems of minority groups in general
well, groups like the burakumin occupy a similar role in japanese society. this isn’t a culturally unique aspect to india, it is simply extended and magnified by the nature of caste and the way hinduism has evolved in south asia.
second, does anyone here know any dalits in the USA? just curious. many here like to drop hints about their high caste antecedents (sometimes by flogging them) no matter their religion, but i think this is a partial reflection of the caste/status origins of brownz. so straight up, 15% of south asian brownz are dalits, has anyone met a brown dalit fam in the USA???
I met one, but they’re FOBs. I know the guy from college (India).
Ok, that was meant to read ‘I know the guy from my college days (India)’. But Razib, its hard to tell. You don’t (and shouldn’t) bring up caste in a polite conversation. Back in college I had no idea what anyone else’s caste was. Sometimes you found out, but it was mostly by accident.
Unfortunately, the Govt’s reservation quota policy is definitely not working, as it only helps the ‘creamy’ layer. The vast majority of dalits do not benefit from those policies at all.
I know a dalit family that lived in Vancouver area and they were treated like crap by other South Asians, due to there caste. They had worked in several south asian restaurants, where they were underpaid and over worked.
They did not seem happy living in Vancouver, so I able to help them open the very 1st indian restaurant in my home town several hours away from Vancouver.
This family was of a christian background, and were sponsored by a christian organization that helped them get into Canada.
Razib,
I know quite a few of Dalits, friendships originating from India, and some of them are now in States.
One of them is a IIT-IIM combo graduate.
As Sakshi told you, you find by accident or someone shares that information with you or one happens to be a prominent politican (Kanshi Ram wagehera, wagehera). Asking someone caste in India in setting that is a public space (University, Government Bldg.) can land you in immense shit.
I have met several engineers and tech-support people from dalit or other very simple background. I use this construction because people dont always self-identify as dalit. In one case, the respondent was very clear that they were from the “mochi” community and quite proud of his achievements.
My perception is that over the last 10 years, the small middle-class of dalits and others established thru govt reservation in the 50s and 60s has been able to educate itself and get some of the better paying jobs. So its been a combination of govt reservations and the expanding private sector that has done the job for them.
There is an appalling lack of interest in mass education both from “official” india and the so-called dalit leadership. A brief survery of various dalit “liberation” sites will show enormous effort devoted to proving brahmin perfidy, bitter complaints about the past but almost no focus on establishment of schools or other forms of constructive action. The only exception to this are the christian evangelicals.
Sobering as hell. Has there been no change for the better at all in the last 60 years?
This makes me hang my head in shame, I wish for once the discussion here doesnÂ’t degenerate into an India bashing and India defending bitch fest and we can focus on this grave issue and what we can do to find a solution.
Asking someone caste in India in setting that is a public space
yeah, yeah, i know. i’m talking about the USA. people here drop hints or talk about their familial caste origins all the time. i don’t know many american brownz so i don’t know how it is in this community.
The extent of social injustice in India is shocking. I was not aware of this since I always thought of Gandhi and mother Theresa and whatnot as examples of Indian generosity and spirituality. But I have been seeing very troubling things lately. Recently I watched a film called “Maya” and was left speechless by the appalling system of sexual abuse at the heart of hinduism! The worse part is that the whole village, including the parents of these innocent children consider ritual sexual abuse to be “normal” and even a “blessing”! That blows my mind.
I’m curious as to how much state action is involved in this discrimination. That end of the problem has a more attainable solution than any private discrimination. It boils down to enforcing laws that seem to already exist. Likewise, there seems to be a lot of legislation in place to protect Dalits from private discrimination, but laws can only go so far. Laws only affect actions, they cannot have an impact on mindsets. This is why I don’t think the problem will ever go away.
Well, it hasn’t happened to me. Maybe it was more common with the previous generation. I don’t know many desi uncle-aunties in the US.
“Besides, the only effective political mobilization against these practices will come from Dalits themselves, which means overcoming patterns of intimidation and resignation that are age-old and surmounting a collective action problem of enormous magnitude.”
a combination of the force of law, dalit mobilization and pressure from other hindus (including the oft-maligned RSS) recently resulted in a victory for dalits wishing to worship freely at the Jagannath temple in Orissa. initially there was strenuous opposition from upper castes in the area, then they relented and allowed dalits in via separate entrance and separate darshan vantage points. but the dalits and others rightfully objected to this condescension and those windows were demolished and dalits now use the same route. it’s early days yet, but so far i haven’t read of any problems. it’s probably not much given the scope of the discrimination mentioned in the report, but it’s a sea change for the temple and hopefully it will spark a sea change in attitudes that will produce a ripple effect in other areas of daily life.
Maybe it was more common with the previous generation. I don’t know many desi uncle-aunties in the US.
i’m talking 1.5 & 2nders.
Movies are meant to entertain and (occasionally) provoke thought. I wish people would stop using them as an introduction to alien cultures. So you watch Gandhi and think India is wonderful, then you watch Maya and think it is horrible? Well India is neither that wonderful, nor is it that horrible. It is (surprise, surprise) somewhere in between: just a country and a culture like any other.
That practise is not the heart of hinduism. It is an aberration and practised by an extremely miniscule minority. So if you think its some kind of Indian version of the Magdalene Sisters, its not.
It boils down to enforcing laws that seem to already exist.
State actors, especially at the village level, believe in caste hierarchy. So why in the world would they enforce laws that challenge that understanding? This started off as a religious problem, its much more than that now obviously, but it would be helpful to go back to basics. I know of one group I read about that recently tried to do just that.
Its also sobering to recall the words of Swami Vivekananda. This is what he said about Kerala 100 years ago:
” it is no use fighting among the castes. What good will it do? It will divide us all the more, weaken us all the more, degrade us all the more. The days of exclusive -privileges and exclusive claims are gone, gone for ever from the soil of India, and it is one of the great blessings of the British Rule in India. Even to the Mohammedan Rule we owe that great blessing, the destruction of exclusive privilege…That Rule was, after all, not all bad; nothing is all bad, and nothing is all good. The Mohammedan conquest of India came as salvation to the down-trodden, to the poor. That is why one-fifth of our people have become Mohammedans. It was not the sword that did it all. It would be the height of madness to think it was all the work of sword and fire. And one-fifth–one half-of your Madras people will become Christians if you do not take care. Was there ever a sillier thing before in the world than what I saw in Malabar country? The poor Pariah is not allowed to pass through the same street as the high-caste man, but if he changes his name to a hodge-podge English name, it is all right. Or to a Mohammedan name, it is all right. What inference would you draw except that those Malabaris are all lunatics, their homes so many lunatic asylums, and that they are to be treated with derision by every India until they mend their manners and know better. Shame upon them that such wicked and diabolical customs are allowed; their own children are allowed to die of starvation, but as soon as they take up some other religion they are well fed. There ought to be no more fight between the castes.”
Much has changed since then. In many respects Kerala is a very enlightened place. But much remains to be done.
has anyone met a brown dalit fam in the USA???
I want to say yes, because it would be statistically impossible to know as many desis as I do, and not know a Dalit.
At the same time though, when does this ever come up? I mean, it’s not like you use your caste for any social purposes here in the US. It becomes one of the irrelevant-but-interesting facts.
Also, I’m not sure how many 1st and 2nd generation types self-identify as Dalit anyway.
when does this ever come up
i don’t know. i only encountered this a few years ago when i started socializing with brownz. the main tendency was for brahmins to mention offhand they were brahmin (or imply it), and other groups (e.g., syrian christians & ismailis as two examples) to imply brahmin ancestry. other groups like rajputs have a high status too. i thought it would be irrelevant, but it seems like bragging about how your great-great-great-great…father/mother was a king/queen of nowhereland.
anyway, the only reason i brought this up is that most 1.5 & 2nd genz find caste as it is implemented in india rather abhorrent. on the other hand, if they’re mostly the “top half” anyway and that’s who they socialize with they don’t have much personal experience with this reality.
It becomes one of the irrelevant-but-interesting facts.
Not at all. For starters, just see how even sub-castes from Indian subcontinent in North America and UK have their own separate places of worship, even Sikhs. For that matter, Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh carry over their hierarchical divide across the oceans, and it gets manifested from time to time.
I agree with Razib (comment #. 19). I also agree with Razib that there is nothing unique in social divide, as he gives examples of Japan, Korea, etc.
This is gonna sound really bad but a few years ago before I moved to Vancouver I didn’t even know that I was from a jatt background[ I was that much of a coconut/whitewashed]. I had no idea what a jatt was.
I could care less about being of jatt background. But alot of jatt’s like talking about there jatt background just so they can say the word jatt. It’s kind of funny if you think about.
Here is a link on banning the manual work done by some. Lots of money are being spent to eliminate this but the corrupt politicians may make it longer to implement.
One of my friends who is SC(Scheduled Caste) or ST(Scheduled Tribe) is in the US, Most of my friends are either Dalits or from lower castes and they are successful in their careers. If not for Affirmative action/Reservation system they wouldn’t have achieved that kind of success.
There is lot of discrimination against Dalits in villages, but caste has become somewhat irrelevant in cities and big towns. Human Rights Watch may be exaggerating or generalising the problem, In some parts of India Dalits are really strong as a political group and are reasonably successful. South Indian states have made some progress in Socio-economic terms, its the North Indian states I am worried about.
Dalits are not monolithic entity, there are different sub castes in each state, people from some of those sub castes are doing better than others.
[quote] Recently I watched a film called “Maya” and was left speechless by the appalling system of sexual abuse at the heart of hinduism! [\quote]
Yeah, sure, whatever.
Why not stop by in Boston where it transpires that the heart of the christian catholic faith is the anal rape of young boys by catholic priests?
Sorry, this was a bit too much to let is pass….
The problems with dalits in India is for real, no body can deny it. The poor uneducated dalits from villages of India are the biggest casualties. But Mr Manmohan Singh should have an introspection with his party people before anything else, because congress is the single biggest guilty party for the plight of dalits in India today. They have been in power for the majority of last 60 years and all they have done is that to get votes,they made shoddy ill implemented reservation schemes. The beneficiaries of these reservations have only been the incompetent people from creamy layer and it has done almost irrecoverable damage to the image of dalits and to the relations between dalit and so called upper caste.
Today a guy from upper caste has deep resentment towards the dalits because they (upper caste) think that dalits get all the opportunites even if they dont deservee it, which is ironic cause the real needy people hardly get anything.
So if the idea is to make everyone equally miserable, these people have accomplished there goals.
Not at all. For starters, just see how even sub-castes from Indian subcontinent in North America and UK have their own separate places of worship, even Sikhs.
Interesting. I have to admit, I’ve never noticed this, i.e. the practice of subcastes having different temples. I live in a smaller Midwestern city that just has one temple, and it seems to have become the social nucleus for the local Indian community. There is something of a North-South divide, but that’s not really a caste issue.
What Razib mentions about Brahmins and Rajputs casually dropping in mention of their background in a conversation rings very true with my experience. Also, everyone knows what Brahmin last names are in every part of India I’ve lived in. I’m not surprised it isn’t more prevalent in the US partly because desis are more likely to stick together there in general, but also probably because the self-selection mechanism meant that more upper-castes and educated upper classes (the two do coincide a lot still) ended up in Amrika. So there isn’t as much opportunity to practise old-fashioned discrimination.
Regarding temple entry laws, someone noted:
Temple entry laws go back to the 1950s, Dalits there fought tooth and nail for the right to enter temples that upper castes didn’t want them to. A year or two ago a court in TN I think ruled that Dalits can also be pandits, which is pretty revolutionary.
The HRW report is depressing as all hell but it’s important for us to read it. All to easy to think this sort of thing doesn’t exist when you don’t see it all around you every day, as most of us don’t.
“Temple entry laws go back to the 1950s, Dalits there fought tooth and nail for the right to enter temples that upper castes didn’t want them to. A year or two ago a court in TN I think ruled that Dalits can also be pandits, which is pretty revolutionary.”
that’s the important thing, that the state and the police in Orissa finally intervened and upheld the law. support from ordinary hindus of all castes who made a public outcry about it also helped. no one element is going to create a huge change – all three have to work together.
Both Abhi and Yo Dad have mentioned their brahminhood on SM. What do you make of that? Most of the time it is meaningless. It is no different from saying you are gujju or bong. Making an issue of this would be stifling for most hindus.
In the villages, all communities have their own temples. Nobody bothers going to anyone else’s temple. It is only the NGO types looking for things to problematize who have decided to make an issue of this as if there are not problems enough without having to concoct some. As for the bigger temples that deny entry to those they consider unfit – they are pretty non-discriminating in their discrimination. Indira Gandhi was not permitted entry into the Jagannath Temple. Neither was a friend of mine because she was in a skirt and they weren’t convinced she was hindu. And why must the JC traditions set the standard for this anyway? They are actively looking for people to join their flocks and naturally invite you in. Hindus have no such agenda and are more concerned with respecting their traditions so can be justified in telling someone to keep out. Again, in the local temples this is not a problem as people are indifferent to this. Incidentally, no brahmin can go into a dalit temple either.
As for the atrocities, I think it is time these were examined for exactly the crimes that they were. If a person is murdered, let’s call it murder. It is ridiculous to say he was murdered because of his caste specially since 90% of the time the atrocities are committed by the so-called low caste people too which is a fact they conveniently fail to mention.
This may be the most depressing line in the whole post. As long as the only people who care about oppression are the oppressed, nothing’s ever going to get done.
Gujju and Bong are references to geographical locations, it is a bit different.
Anyway, what exactly ARE dalits? Are they an ethinic background? Are they of African ancestry as claimed here http://profile.myspace.com/ index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89293119
and here
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=15115869
that’s the important thing, that the state and the police in Orissa finally intervened and upheld the law. support from ordinary hindus of all castes who made a public outcry about it also helped. no one element is going to create a huge change – all three have to work together.
Absolutely. The Vaikom satygraha involved groups of peoples from many castes – so -called high and low, Periyar, Narayana Guru, Gandhi, and even Brahmins like Rajagopalachari. Dalit mobilization, while the single most crucial ingredient, isn’t enough. The muredrous stranglehold of Jim Crow wasn’t broken by Blacks alone.
And there are no takers by the way. Who’d want to go into a dead-end profession anyway? Many Sanskrit colleges and pathshaalas are shutting down because nobody wants to do this job. Again, it is easy to pounce on these things and make a political issue of them. But even among the pandits there are different schools and they accept only their kind of pandits. The harijans and tribals have always had their own traditions for death and marriage ceremonies etc. It would not occur to them to get a brahmin pandit to do their rituals.
A year or two ago a court in TN I think ruled that Dalits can also be pandits, which is pretty revolutionary.
Interesting. Can I get a link to a story. I hadn’t heard of this before.
It actually kind of bothers me that a court would do this. While I appreciate the importance of a government mobilizing to end systematic discrimination, isn’t this the government interfering in a religious practice? What’s next, a statute that says every non-Dalit in India has to have at least one Dalit person to dinner once a week? (Yes, I exaggerate).
As an aside, TN has a long tradition of temples with non-Brahmin priests, and this court ruling (jeez!) may have been along those same lines.
It’s incredibly sad to think about, isnt’ it, that Dalits should be continued to be treated badly? It’s disgusting.
Clueless
I always knew my family was a Jatt family, but that is because as one of the first wave of immigrants to the US in the sixties, they went to regional conferences that sometimes overlapped with caste: In my parents case, Haryana/Jatt. The ten people in this demographic in our part of the US would have meetings, which I suspect, would be subsumed by larger Indian or South Asian gatherings today. We stopped going when I was a kid because they had made their own life and own friends after a time and because they didn’t particularly want to self-ghettoize themselves in one ethnic community. I never thought of it as caste, but as a regional thing, somehow. It’s like, that’s the part of India my family is from. Weird, but’s that’s how it was presented to me.
On another note, in the past I’ve been surprised by some of the north-versus-south vibe of the comments section, particularly by western born/raised desis. Wierd thing to internalize, but entirely natural, I suppose. Also, a lot of demeaning comments towards one caste or another, which, again, surprised me considering the ‘aren’t well all South Asian’ vibe that happens here. And the whole, I’m a Guju thing, that happens around SM. There are so many layers to identity and I’m always intrigued by the patchwork that results. It’s as if caste, reworked in the Western diaspora context, becomes a sort of soft regionalism. Am I out of line with that?
Also, what’s a Rajput? I mean, II’ve never heard about that term in context of a caste. Is it one? I didn’t know that.
I see people on SM dropping the Tam-Brahm reference all the time, when speaking of the south or TN. I can see how announcing that you are Tamil might lend some color to your perspective on the south or Tamil Nadu, etc., announcing that your tam-brahm however, IMHO, lends nothing to your view point, unless the discussion is specifically about Tamil Brahmins. So why do it?
I’m not trying to start something here, I’m genuinely curious.
MD,
i’m with you. the funniest thing to me is when brownz assume their regional idiosyncrasies are brown-normative. i’ve done it myself. oh, and another thing is the use of terms like ‘gora’ as if everyone will understand it (and most do). i had to email and ask someone if gora was a word bengalis used cuz i’d never heard it….
Oh, and I forgot to add one other thing: biography is a strong component in these comment boards, or has been since so many discussions are about identity, and it becomes hard not to mention all the things that are in the biography. So, I don’t think people mentioning they are brahmin is necessarily suspect, in that context.
Hema – I read about it in passing, here’s the first reference I could find, though it’s an editorial.
Government regulation of temples and religious activity/exclusion was always controversial (see Robert Baird Religion and Law in Modern India and numerous articles by Marc Galanter) as an intervention in religion and private behaviour, but the case made for it back in the day was that religion and caste permeate so much of everday social life that not intervening to prevent caste discrimination could actually prevent people from accessing basic human goods.
That may well be, but there are enough cases of Dalits being beaten up for trying to enter temples reported in the newspapers (a basic news search/Lexis Nexis/Indian newspaper databases will bring up several) to suggest that not all villages have caste-sorted temples. It could also be that Dalits wish to enter temples they have been excluded from as they move up the socioeconomic ladder/attempt to mainstream?
Strongly suggest everyone reads the full report, btw, a lot of it is in point form and recommendations so it’s not as long as it looks.
That makes total sense. But why don’t you see anyone say “being a Tam-Mudaliar” or “being a Tam-Chettiar” or “being a Tam-Thevar”?
Sorry – above post was me. I was trying to address MD and put the name in the box. Sorry.
Uh oh, we have two different MDs….MD 39 is not MD #42. 🙂
Hey, thanks for clarifying! I’ve used this boring old handle for so long. If I knew I was going to be a long term commenter I would have come up with something more clever, rather than the initials of my name.
but the case made for it back in the day was that religion and caste permeate so much of everday social life that not intervening to prevent caste discrimination could actually prevent people from accessing basic human goods.
Yes, I can see that. To the extent that discrimination in providing basic services and amenities is bad, it should absolutely be stopped. I have no issues with the US Civil Rights Act prohibiting segregation in restaurants, hotels, etc., even though those are private entities, and customers are engaging in private conduct, for example.
But religion is a different thing, in my opinion. Would the courts feel as comfortable telling the Church of South India who it could pick its bishops from? Caste is too often seen as uniquely a Hindu problem, but it’s a social problem, and IMO, social behavior usually escapes government regulation/enforcement.
So, I don’t think people mentioning they are brahmin is necessarily suspect, in that context.
doesn’t matter in the USA. americans don’t care/note such distinctions.
It actually kind of bothers me that a court would do this. While I appreciate the importance of a government mobilizing to end systematic discrimination, isn’t this the government interfering in a religious practice?
The DMK tried to do it in the 1970s, a body of Tamil Brahmins filed a counter-petition, and the Supreme Court sided with the Brahmins and struck it down as a violation of Hindu tradition. More recently, the Supreme Court (in 2002) ruled the very opposite – based upon its reading of Hindu texts, it concluded that all Hindus are eligible to be temple priests. The DMK law – welcome, imo -is consonant with the 2002 ruling. There has been no uproar AT ALL from the Hindu public in TN about the ruling btw, which tells me that they don’t perceive an “intereference” in their religion. 🙂
There has been no uproar AT ALL from the Hindu public in TN about the ruling btw, which tells me that they don’t perceive an “intereference” in their religion. 🙂
Not surprised at all. I’ve discussed things like this with folks in India many times, and they don’t share my libertarian concerns about government and social justice. 🙂
doesn’t matter in the USA. americans don’t care/note such distinctions.
i have been asked my caste by americans and europeans thousands of times, often out of curiosity. but then i have spent most of my life around campus towns.
also, remember, most of the friendly discussions were not at all condescending but mostly desire to learn fine points. when i was a graduate student, on our first conference trip, my advisor (1st gen american from spain) had lengthy discussions with me on caste, etc. i had detailed talks with him on franco and his family history.