There are two kinds of people in the world: those who have been counting down to Wednesday all year long, and those who wonder why so many people are buying flowers for President’s Day. I count myself in the latter camp, having been single virtually every Vday that I can remember. So I watch with amusement as many of my friends work themselves into a lather because of the intense pressure to commemorate this day with precisely the right amount and kind of conspicuous consumption.
The mingled scent of love and desperation in the air can mean only one thing for desis these days, namely speed dating followed by quirky stories from the mainstream media. Here’s a NYT article about Muslim Speed Dating Meeting:
A few years ago the organizers were forced to establish a limit of one parent per participant and bar them from the tables until the social hour because so many interfered. Parents … alternate between craning their necks to see who their adult children are meeting or horse-trading bios, photographs and telephone numbers among themselves….
Mrs. Siddique said her shy, 20-year-old daughter spent the hours leading up to the banquet crying that her father was forcing her to do something weird. “Back home in Pakistan, the families meet first,” she said. “You are not marrying the guy only, but his whole family…” [Link]
I suspect journalists are tickled by this spectacle because to them speed dating is like the bar scene, but faster. So the idea that conservative parents endorse it is weird. Parents, on the other hand, see it as a faster way to set up little tea encounters for their children, but only wholesale instead of retail. And desis love a bargain!
Desi parents (especially Muslim ones, but I’m sure there are similar scenes in other communities) do make it pretty easy to be mocked:
One panelist, Yasmeen Qadri, suggested that Muslim mothers across the continent band together in an organization called “Mothers Against Dating,” modeled on Mothers Against Drunk Driving. [Link],
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p>So who’s right? Is speed dating/meeting a truly chaste solution to parents’ worries, or is it the first step down the slippery slope to group sex and public handholding?
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Mothers trade biodatas while their children speed date |
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p> It turns out both sides are right. Speed dating actually comes out of a conservative religious impulse. It was created and trademarked by Rabbi Yaacov Dayo, who laid it all out in the romantically titled “A Time-Saving Guide To Finding Your Lifelong Love”. The purpose was to encourage a return to the good old days of civilized courtship:
“Throughout the 1800s and early 1900s people dated to get married,” … But many modes of contemporary dating are a sad waste of time for those aiming at permanency, especially women who want children, … “It’s not because they don’t want more meaningful relationships. I think it’s a question of them not knowing how to get there–I think they just cannot figure it out.” For one thing, … there are not enough elders to serve as role models for building successful, intimate, long-term partnerships. [Link]
So the parents aren’t wrong to see speed dating as an ally in their quest to protect their children’s morals. Or are they?
When psychologists have studied speed dating they find that people ignore all of the weighty factors that parents stress, and choose based largely on … hotness:
“Although they had three minutes, most participants made their decision based on the information that they probably got in the first three seconds,” Kurzban said. “Somewhat surprisingly, factors that you might think would be really important to people, like religion, education and income, played very little role in their choices…” [Link]
… study participants were asked ahead of time what they would prefer in a partner. Men–rather predictably–said attractiveness, while women listed intelligence and sincerity… However, when they moved through the speed dating process there was no appreciable difference between men and women. Both used attractiveness to make their decisions. [Link]
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p>And in fact, like in a bar, there’s even a closing time effect, at least for men:
Also, during the last two dates of the session men were a lot more likely to say that they’d like to see someone again. “This corresponds to a saying that ‘women are prettier at closing time,'” said Simonson, referring to a study that asked men in a bar to rate the attractiveness of women at 9 p.m. and then at midnight (controlling for alcohol consumption). The women were deemed to be more attractive later in the evening. “You don’t find that spike in women saying yes at the very end of an evening,”… [Link]
Ssssssh. Don’t tell the uncles and aunties though 
“Don’t talk to the Muslim girls, ever, but you are going to marry them. As for the non-Muslim girls, talk to them, but don’t ever bring one home.”
this made me cringe. one of the most repulsive tendencies in many muslim families in my opinion is the tendency to accept “sowing wild oats” with non-muslim females before settling down with a “respectable” girl. basically, non-muslim women are good enough for housing a muslim man’s organs on occasion, but only muslim women are good enough to bring forth children. the only cultures in the USA which have managed to withstand the pull of the cultural Zeitgeist on these issues are segregated groups, like the amish, or extremely clannish ones like roma. the SES profile of muslim americans is too middle class and assimilated to make this feasible.
p.s. i noticed once on decruz’s weblog that some christian indians were justifying arranged marriage via biblical citations. the religious rationale is just that, a rationale. of course, being a virgin until marriage is easy in societies when you marry right after puberty or late in your teens, then in modern america where professionals tend to delay marriage until after their graduate education.
i say let’s bring back the swayamvara. that is speed dating at its best!
Mothers against Dating should be called Mothers against Intergration
I may be wrong but desi parents who live in the west have a double standard when it comes to dating. If there sons do it they may not be happy but won’t say much. But if there western raised daughter starts dating then all hell will break lose. Some will will take there daughters back home to the homeland to get married and even worse a few have had taken there own daughters lifes.
Honestly, Russel Peters should be looking here for new material.
Unfortunately, this is all too common among Hindus as well. It’s an assimilation thing. The “goris” are fine as sexual objects, but how could they EVER be as wise, understanding, caring (etc, etc, etc…) as a suitable Indian girl? This issue has led to one of the only straight-up shouting matches I’ve had with family members.
Neal – who would they prefer, though, a gori or a muslim girl?
Unfortunately, this is all too common among Hindus as well.
well, i know a guy who dates extensively, but he tells all of his SOs (white and east asian, he’s never dated brown that i know of) that he is going to marry a patel so it isn’t going to be a long term proposition. at least he’s honest, but perhaps he should invest in a massage parlor membership.
Hahaha, oh man, I’ve never been in a position to find out. I bet it would start up a fun ‘conversation’ though 😀
I have to point out here — my parents have never espoused this attitude (although they have sometimes needed some time to adjust to people I’ve been dating). It’s always random uncles and aunties.
That sucks. Sure, yeah, at least he’s honest. But this kind of shit reflects poorly on all of us. It perpetuates a really sleazy stereotype about misogynistic Indian men.
People marry within groups for a host of reasons and many of them are not ethically questionable. Most brownz are not Christian and that right there poses a barrier to intermarriage. A large body of “high SES” brownz may be secular, so religious differences may play little role in their choice of mates.
Having sex for sport with white women (with no intention of marrying them) may be more suspect, I agree, but it can go both ways – there are many whites who have no intention of marrying brownz either, and if both have no intention of marrying the other, whats the harm?
Yeah, at least the acronym will work out better.
Most brownz are not Christian and that right there poses a barrier to intermarriage. A large body of “high SES” brownz may be secular, so religious differences may play little role in their choice of mates.
that would explain 30% outmarriage rates for indian americans for 1.5 & 2nd gens.
Having sex for sport with white women (with no intention of marrying them) may be more suspect, I agree, but it can go both ways – there are many whites who have no intention of marrying brownz either, and if both have no intention of marrying the other, whats the harm?
people are not angels, and what you say is true, the problem with some communities (not just brown) is that ingroup-outgroup dynamics result in an operational dehumanization of outgroups which is sanctioned by communal norms. this is not really a good trend in a pluralistic society. i know many people who say they will date widely but stipulate that they will only marry some in “their community.” i think that this turns other human beings into ephemeral utility bundles, and that’s problematic.
My parents never had any problemswith me dating non-desis, in fact Iäve never dated a desi, and they seem quite okay that may eventually settle down with wome one who isn’t a bengali hindu. However auntie back in Calcutta isn’t at ease with it, and maybe that would be to much to expect. My parents live in India now a days and every time I’m back visiting there are two or three aunties trying to set me up with a good bangla woman.
It’s pretty entertaing, however I beieve things wouldn’t have been as funny if I was a woman, myparents would be ok, but the rest, I doubt they would let her in to their homes.
This issue is pretty much related to all the racism bla bla bla in Celebrity Big Brother, they may call you Popadom but you can still fuck them and eat with their parents. We however can live in Uganda for 200 years without inter marrying.
Also think about it, sleep with a caucasian, sure they won’t be angry as long as you have a dick, bring home an african-american…. My parents lived in NYC for 30 years, they still say Nigro.
i thought parents posting their kids’ profile on websites like shaadi.com or bharatmatrimony.com was weird when it first started years back. now it’s the norm. maybe this spped meeting/dating would be acceptable shortly, too.
Aren’t there some similarities between how Jewish people in the West have this pressure to ultimately settle down with Jewish partners? Same assimilation anxieties, family pressures, aunties fixing people up with someone they know from their cousin’s best friend’s synagogue? It’s probably not as intense but my Jewish friend loves comparing Indian culture with Jewish culture and this is one of the things she said to me. I mean they’ve been experiencing these things for longer than us so I imagine in the main we will follow their trajectory.
Aren’t there some similarities between how Jewish people in the West have this pressure to ultimately settle down with Jewish partners?
yes, obviously. one issue though: i think the cultural emphasis on ingroup female virginity is part of the issue. that is, a double standard. i think american jewish preference for endogamy isn’t wrapped up in issues of female chastity, and both males and females tend to feel concomitant pressures to date within the group, or not.
Wouldn’t you feel entirely nervous/awkward if your parents came with you to a speed-dating gig? I know I would, but maybe that speaks to my own hang-ups.
Clueless, for all the times I disagree with you, a big TRUE DAT to the comment on the dating double standard in the western diaspora.
It’s not that weird, if you think about it. Most of the people I know whose parents have posted profiles didn’t know or didn’t want their parents to do it… but they did anyway. I feel like parents are way more likely to post matrimonial ads than their children.
Red, funny that you mention the match-making “culture” in the Jewish community; I’ve generally felt that arranged marriage, in the U.S., was remarkably similar.
I saw this and laughed. I can’t help that I’m juvenile, but wouldn’t it be amazing if sex were a sport?
And lastly, there is tons of dating and premarital sex happening in the desi community at large. I can’t speak to the Muslim community, but I often wish people were just more open/accepting of this so that we could all move on. The taboo seems useless, and, in my experience, seems to take a toll on people. I mean, I am always floored when I meet desis who have been dating their SO for 1+ years, or are living with their SO, and still don’t mention anything to their parents.
I can’t resist commenting on this topic. The new dating practices are extremely confusing, not to mention downright scary, for us old fogeys raising children in a country we chose merely for its economic opportunities without giving its other strange cultural traits a second thought. I wish we had – I had.
I am pretty assimilated and not exactly your run-of-the-mill confused desi, but what really scares me is how dating is getting to be a juvenile sport. I have heard 14-year olds, an age group my wife and I have acquired quite an expertise in, rave about their boyfriends and girlfriends. Is 14 a proper age to have a partner in life? Come on!
These 14 and 15 year olds are not all sexually involved. But the emotional involvement, and the mere concept of a partner at this age, is downright abnormal in our humble opinion.
Maybe my opinions are a little off the speed dating topic, but speed dating at age 20+, when one is presumably looking for a life partner, is far more sensible than casual dating in early and even late teens. I apologize for my uncleness here, but I do blame the chicken with all its hormones for turning our children into pseudo adults at age 14.
“It’s not that weird, if you think about it. Most of the people I know whose parents have posted profiles didn’t know or didn’t want their parents to do it… but they did anyway. I feel like parents are way more likely to post matrimonial ads than their children.”
But thats why it is weird, I have never managed to come to terms with how much power Indian parents have over their kids. I’d be furious if any one pulled a stunt like that with me.
Do you think so? In my experience these desi matrimonial sites are partly used as hook up sites for shagging. All that undercover stuff going on big time.
Samjay, I guess you’re right — it’s weird. Perhaps it would have been better for me to have said it’s “common” for desi parents to be overly involved in their kids’ love lives. 🙂
Maybe this is where some of the confusion lies, as well. Not everyone dates to find their jeevansaathi, and dating does not intrinsically imply sexual activity. I think most people understand the difference between dating at 14 versus dating at 20. I think (desi) parents are so worried about their kids having sex and not doing well on their exams that they get all crazy. But also, they show a tremendous lack of trust in their kids. If you’ve “raised ’em right,” won’t you trust them to make decisions that are good for them, even if you ultimately disagree with those choices? It’s one thing when a kid is 13, but I would hope people would grow a pair (pardon the sexism) and display some maturity as adults.
Maybe the 1.5 gen’ers can correct me, but have you found that dating practices (or, the popular rhetoric around dating practices) are way more conservative in the western desi diaspora than they are in the desh?
“so I imagine in the main we will follow their trajectory.”
Red Snapper I’ve had the same exact conversation with my Jewish friends. Now that 2nd-gen AB Indians are getting a bit longer in the tooth its funny to see how many folks getting past say…age 27 or so; find the closest most availiable desi and ‘settle’ down. A part of me is jealous. But a much bigger part is like..HOLDUP…WAIT A MINUTE! DO you even care to KNOW your prospective mate?! I see massive boatloads of parental/family emotional blackmail in the American desi marriage scene. It’s weird. Sad. But its gonna make for some killer gossip down the road.
Floridian I started ‘dating’ when I was 13….in a group context but still…the social pressure was overwhelming!!…my parents just laughed at me and let me go about my merry way.
Well, you don’t have to be desi to feel like that, plenty of american parents are saying the same thing. I do think you are wrong though, you become an adult by playing adult as a kid. I don’t think having relationships is any different from other things that we learn while growing up.
Is dating appropriate for a 14-15 year old? I really don’t know when it is appropriate to get emotionally involved at the first time, modern urbanized society seems to make us older and older before settle down to have a family. But traditionally, especially in India, that used to be the age when people gor married.
“I really don’t know when it is appropriate to get emotionally involved at the first time”
Samjay..there is no possible way to know…and more importantly…CONTROL this. Your kids will like/love when they do…just make sure you foster enough trust in them that they can tell you when they do. Stay in the loop of their lives. The more you lay down law in a strict, moralistic fashion, the more they will form a second life that will exclude you.
Hell yes! Maybe this is my (younger) perspective, but you can find desis to shag anytime! I mean, just go to a South Asian conference 😛 Or maybe the crowd I run in doesn’t identify as that “desperate”? 🙂
That said, especially at the beginning, I feel like parents were so much more likely to post their kids’ b-i-o-d-a-t-a.
Traditionally parents are the ones who post the matrimonial ads. People posting ads for themselves is the new-fangled way. In India sometimes even when people do it themselves they pretend it’s coming from the parents or a relative. Btw, the thriving matrimnial ad tradition in India was started by the Brits desperately seeking other Brits during their colonial sojourn. That’s why India has such a head start in the “personals” arena compared to other places.
This article is not recent, I read this a few months ago, but nonetheless… I don’t understand what this article is really supposed to say, the length of it looks at Pakistanis but also incorporates other Muslim American groups. It’s all kind of lumped together
Is it supposed to serve as yet another glimpse into the “foreign” lives and separate ways of South Asians/Muslims? Yeah, it’s amusing but what does mainstream America actually make of articles like this…
Those sites (I’m talking from UK experience here) are brilliant for hooking up and meeting people for fun and games. But they have an even more sublime aspect — putting your picture up there takes the heat off you from your parents who are relieved that you are finally doing something to settle down with a ‘respectable’ brown boy/girl. So they’re happy. And in the meantime you suddenly have hundreds of thousands of horny boys and girls to wink at, meet and flirt with, and have no strings attached dirty weekends in London hotels with. Perfect.
And hey, eventually you will most likely actually meet someone you like and settle down with. They’re the best thing to happen for a while — and all done in the most discrete and respectable undercover way of course, which makes it more fun.
Yeah, it’s amusing but what does mainstream America actually make of articles like this…
you’re f**king primitive 🙂 but that’s OK, you’re colored, it adds to the vibrancy of amerika.
“Maybe the 1.5 gen’ers can correct me, but have you found that dating practices (or, the popular rhetoric around dating practices) are way more conservative in the western desi diaspora than they are in the desh?”
Nope! The dating practices are still more conservating in the desh. I would grant you this, though. The desis back in the desh may feel some of the same emotions and urges as the western desis, but those emotions are not as readily acted upon in the form of early -een DATING! At the end of the day, cultures and civilizations are about proper actions. If every human urge was sanctioned for immediate enactment, we will be back in the stone ages.
Glass houses “Stay in the loop of their lives.” That’s the best thing, and may be the only thing, a parent can do! Good advice.
Glass houses “Floridian I started ‘dating’ when I was 13….in a group context but still…the social pressure was overwhelming!!…my parents just laughed at me and let me go about my merry way.” I would love to talk to your parents. I need moral support!
Nope! The dating practices are still more conservating in the desh. I would grant you this, though.
yeah, but, those of us whose parents left a generation ago still have to deal with 1970s values. so that’s what i think the original comment alludes to.
Best line ever 😀
Absolutely NOT. One or two south Bombay examples do not make up a rule. The rhetoric around male-female relationship is still extremely conservative in most India. A good example of this is the “outraged Bachchans” headline reported by a lot of serious media outlets in India over Aishwarya Rai’s kissing scene in a recent movie. Personally I think that the whole story was BS. I think its f#@king ridiculous that people think that Amitabh Bachchan in real life is like the protagonist he played in Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gam, but the story reflects the culture of India and sensitivity towards male-female relationships.
Razib said: well, i know a guy who dates extensively, but he tells all of his SOs (white and east asian, he’s never dated brown that i know of) that he is going to marry a patel so it isn’t going to be a long term proposition.
Some women put up with this type of man b/c they don’t want to marry, but don’t want to be alone either. I personally think that those ladies need to have more respect for themselves, and date men who they know may marry them later on, because that is why the majority of people date in the first place. Even if someone’s mother or father is unhappy, your life is your own, NOT theirs. Choose people you associate with wisely, and treat men and women with the respect they deserve- that’s what I learned from my desi family!
This is the most ridiculous thing I have EVER heard of. The article makes numerous references to Muslims not being able to date. I ask anyone to truly read the Quran in depth, and tell me that meeting chastely (NOT in a room full of crazy aunties) with the opposite sex is Islamically wrong.
Absolutely ridiculous.
What’s wrong with dating somebody with no intent to marry them, as long as both parties are clear about it in the first place? Why so judgmental? Should I not have dated that French exchange student, even though it was pretty clear that we were never going to live in the same country (and might not have wanted to?) Should I not have dated locals while I was working in Shanghai, even though I was coming back to the US and they were staying there?
Sometimes you date somebody because they are right for where you are in life, although not right for where you are going. You might like them, you might even love them. But as long as it is done ethically, I can’t see that it’s wrong.
I know lots of women who will only marry somebody taller than they are, although they might date a man their height. Does that turn “other human beings into ephemeral utility bundles” ?
What if you’re 15 or 20 and not looking to settle down any time soon? Should high schoolers only date people who fit their parameters for a long term mate?
Maybe my opinions are a little off the speed dating topic, but speed dating at age 20+, when one is presumably looking for a life partner, is far more sensible than casual dating in early and even late teens. I apologize for my uncleness here, but I do blame the chicken with all its hormones for turning our children into pseudo adults at age 14.
These young teens (of course) aren’t looking for a life partner, BUT they want someone to hang with who shares their same interests. You as a parent should encourage healthy behavior, BUT 14 is not the age to be getting involved with the opposite gender. Many (liberal) desi and other Asian parents I grew up around didn’t let their kids date until age 18. This may be a little TOO strict for most kids growing up in US, but they said they did it for their kids’ own protection.
Emma, how many 20 or 22 or even 25 year olds do you know who are actually looking for a life partner? I can count the examples on my fingers …
You as a parent should encourage healthy behavior, BUT 14 is not the age to be getting involved with the opposite gender.
I meant physically involved, because though the rates of teen pregnancy have gone a bit down, the rates of HIV infection are pretty high w/ ages 16-24. Also, please communicate with your kids about contraception, because most schools are not doing that at all (even in NYC area where I am a substitute teacher and tutor). Indiana, where my brother is in HS) has abstinence-only education (as Bush wants).
What’s wrong with dating somebody with no intent to marry them, as long as both parties are clear about it in the first place? Why so judgmental? Should I not have dated that French exchange student, even though it was pretty clear that we were never going to live in the same country (and might not have wanted to?) Should I not have dated locals while I was working in Shanghai, even though I was coming back to the US and they were staying there?
Sometimes you date somebody because they are right for where you are in life, although not right for where you are going. You might like them, you might even love them. But as long as it is done ethically, I can’t see that it’s wrong.
That’s why I said it was my PERSONAL point of view! My family and I are one the LEAST judgmental desi-American families I’ve ever come across, BUT we do all have our different ways of thinking about relationships. Yes, dating people casually is NO sin, BUT don’t it’s another thing to go around pretending you love them (which some people unfortunately do).
Emma, how many 20 or 22 or even 25 year olds do you know who are actually looking for a life partner? I can count the examples on my fingers …
I don’t think 22 is too young, but then again, that is the age when people are outta college and looking for their 1st job, trying for grad school, blah, blah, blah. An issue that comes up is the LACK OF TIME, and no one can argue about that!
Emma, please learn how to set your comments apart from the comments you are responding to. Just highlight the comments you are answering and then hit the ” icon.
See?
I know lots of women who will only marry somebody taller than they are, although they might date a man their height. Does that turn “other human beings into ephemeral utility bundles” ?
yes, and where are those riots between the tall and short groups? between the ugly and beautiful? not all differences are created the same. not all discrimation is alike.
Emma, how many 20 or 22 or even 25 year olds do you know who are actually looking for a life partner? I can count the examples on my fingers
you should shut up then since you obviously either don’t know many people or have a biased sample.
Sincere question to SM administrators: how does trollery like this not get banned? Is it because Razib is a frequent poster and thus a “friend of the family”?
I mean, come on…everyone knows this dude isn’t even a real geneticist. Just another hack with a blog. Well, as they say, if you can’t do it, then blog about it. 🙂
LOL at the “wholesale vs retail”! I’ve heard of matchmaking conventions popular among Gujarati families, particularly, in the States, where people walk around with biodatas and identifying numbers around their necks or something – that’s sort of like speed-dating, isn’t it? Don’t you love how conservative desi parents are perfectly happy to pimp their kids on a marriage market so long as it’s quick, as opposed to letting them go out and pimp themselves? 😉
Heard of the Hutus vs Tutsis?
BTW, they weren’t really tall and short groups though.