Aish Marries Tree(s)–A Setback for Feminism?

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Aishwarya Rai, who has been in the news lately because of her engagement to Abhishek Bachchan, has apparently been ritually married to not one but two trees before her real marriage (thanks, Antahkarana). The aim is to counter the astrological effects of being born a Manglik:

But Ash is reportedly blighted with what in astrological terms is described as “manglik dosh,” which means that the planet Mars (mangla) and possibly even the planet Saturn are in the seventh house. People with manglik dosh are prone to multiple marriages, according to San Francisco Bay Area Vedic astrologer Pandit Parashar. That means Ash’s marriage to Abhishek could either end in divorce or his death.

In Hindu tradition, in order to offset the evil influence of manglik dosh, a woman should marry a peepal or banana tree before she ties the knot with her fiancé. Or she could even marry a clay urn, which should be broken soon after the nuptial ceremonies, signifying that the bride has become a widow, and the manglik dosh problem has been solved.

ItÂ’s not known if Ash has married, or plans to marry, an urn, but she reportedly has married a peepal tree in the holy city of Varanasi, and a banana tree in the southern Indian city of Bangalore. (link)

The Indian media is reporting that a case has been filed against the Bachchan family by lawyer Shruti Singh to the effect that these types of practices promote untouchability. She has also suggested that it’s offensive to women.

There has been some discussion of this event on the blog Feministing, and one commenter there points out that the practice of marrying a tree can also be recommended for men, though I haven’t been able to confirm that. (If true, that would definitely weaken the case that this is a misogynistic ritual.) Other commenters have suggested that this is probably pretty harmless in the big scheme of things — especially since honor killings, dowry killings, child marriages, and forced marriages are still problems in Indian society.

What do readers think? Is this “backward” practice part of a slippery slope (only one step away from things that are much more problematic), or something basically harmless? What do you think of Shruti Singh’s claim that this practice promotes untouchability? I must admit I don’t know very much about Hindu astrology, and so can’t say what role caste plays in these practices in general.

268 thoughts on “Aish Marries Tree(s)–A Setback for Feminism?”

  2. There are various acts of Parliament that allow someone to be sued for demanding dowry, including caste in matrimonial ads etc (though this last one seems to have been relaxed a little, earlier all ads had to say “caste no bar” and now “communities” are openly listed) – so there may be some legal basis for the PIL. Still, the mangal-dosh nonsense in this particular case would seem to be a “victimless crime” and it’s hard to argue that someone was discriminated against on this basis. If you were to file PILs against everyone who was, as the quaint expression goes, “caste-ridden” in their thinking or superstitious, or sexist, you’d have to sue half the country. Best focus on actual cases of harm, like caste discrimination in employment and so on.

  3. If my parents asked me to marry a tree I’d do it to make THEM happy. If my inlaws asked me to marry a tree and my husband to be didn’t have an objective opinion I might have a massive problem with it.

    Why would you do it for your parents but not your in-laws? This right here is the root cause for so many marital problems among our current generation of desis.

  4. There are various acts of Parliament that allow someone to be sued for demanding dowry, including caste in matrimonial ads etc (though this last one seems to have been relaxed a little, earlier all ads had to say “caste no bar” and now “communities” are openly listed) – so there may be some legal basis for the PIL.

    Yeah. I’m just curious what that legal basis is. As I understand it, there is an actual statute criminalizing the practice of demanding dowry, so I can see what the basis of a PIL would be in that case, and caste discrimination in private sector employment, education, etc. would be a homerun PIL. But the manglik issue doesn’t necessarily invoke caste. For example, in the Tamil community, belief in “sevvai dosham” allegedly transcends most caste lines.

    Still, the mangal-dosh nonsense in this particular case would seem to be a “victimless crime” and it’s hard to argue that someone was discriminated against on this basis.

    Exactly. In the grand scheme of things, this strikes me as a relatively harmless ritual. At any rate, a PIL should have to balance societal harms of private conduct against the cost of enforcing (in theory) any directive that is the result of the PIL. In this case, the cost outweighs the harm significantly.

  5. i fail to see how marrying a tree is setting feminism back. maybe a particular brand of feminism, like…umm…oh i dunno…the vhite/vestern kind.

    so three points: 1)i guess one could look at it in many ways. 2) this is mine. and 3) i think that marrying a tree is not necessarily to be interpreted as literal as “breaking a curse.” it really should be philosophized as a way of renouncing a notion of the self/transcending the body/creating good karma. that seems feminist to me, particularly the transcending the body.

    anyway…i’m off to my meditation in indian culture class 😀 tootles!

  6. Sikh-Hindu marriages tend to be among people within the same caste…as are most Sikh-Sikh marriages. Marriages ACROSS caste lines are less common, regardless of religion.

    Yes, like Khatris and Mair Rajputs. I would venture that there are very few urban Hindu Punjabi families without at least a couple of Sikh intermarriages – and vice versa. That being said, I think urban Punjabis have generally done a good job of putting caste behind them, at least compared to some other groups.

    This is the future of urban India…mixed marriages will be the rule.

    Yes, this appears likely, though most of India is still rural. Even communities traditionally finicky about exogamy like Tamil Brahmin Iyers and Sindhis are experiencing this. Interestingly, women with the manglick dosham are marketed beyond caste lines more widely because of the “defect.” So a Tamil Brahmin family may be amenable to “any South Indian Brahmana” as a result of the bad alignment.

    Vikram Chatwal married his wife with the consent of his parents, there was no religious controversy whatever, and they had Hindu and Sikh ceremonies.

    BTW this astology stuff, its not just superstitious provincials who believe this. I know a Professor who holds chairs in both physics and mathematics who puts out an astrology journal in Upstate New York – he told me unabashedly that he thinks there’s “something to it.”

  7. Why would you do it for your parents but not your in-laws? This right here is the root cause for so many marital problems among our current generation of desis.

    Such a gray area Amitabh. My parents have earned my compromise while my in-laws haven’t yet. And yes they are the husband’s parents but just as I take responsiblity for my parents actions I’d expect him to take responsiblity for his parents actions.

    Again this is such a nebulous topic that to make any rigid statements about it would be out of line. Every single situation is subjective. I wouldn’t be so quick to blame a whole generation of desis.

    I’d say the root cause of so many problems today is the fact that the current generation doesn’t blindly follow cultural rules and rites and prefers to question them as well as authority. Not a bad thing IMO. The implied and demanded respect irrespective of how poorly behaved the demanding party is is now questioned by the current generation. Again in my opinion that’s a good thing.

  8. Hema – not sure what the exact statute is here, there may well be one about “promoting obscurantism and quackery,” but the general point I was trying to get at was that there is a basis for the Indian state to intervene in what it considers “backward” or harmful social practices. It would be interesting if someone argued that women were more likely to be discriminated against as mangliks or something, but I doubt it, because people are usually OK with a manglik-manglik match, and if all else fails, there are always silly tree-rituals and other forms of bribing the priests gods. This PIL strikes me as similar to a hisbah suit in old-fashioned Islamic law, when you can basically intervene in people’s private lives to say they did something un-Islamic and should be punished.

  9. BTW this astology stuff, its not just superstitious provincials who believe this. I know a Professor who holds chairs in both physics and mathematics who puts out an astrology journal in Upstate New York – he told me unabashedly that he thinks there’s “something to it.”

    As much as I love logic I absolutely love Astrolgy…perhaps western astrology more than eastern astrology 🙂

  10. Astrology is nothing but the emotional side of astronomy.

    I don’t put alot of faith in it, but I do think there is some science behind. Water levels change according to the waxing and waning of the moon. Humans on Earth are composed mostly of water, hence I do think there is something to be said for changes within us also, according to the waxing and waning of the moon as well as the positions of other planets.

    Astrology seeks to explain our emotional states from a planetary perspective. I am willing to concede that the moon and other planets might have some effect on our bodies and minds, just as they do the Earth planet.

    Marrying a tree or whatever might be a superstition, but what if it actually works?

  12. Such a gray area Amitabh. My parents have earned my compromise while my in-laws haven’t yet. And yes they are the husband’s parents but just as I take responsiblity for my parents actions I’d expect him to take responsiblity for his parents actions.

    Yeah, but maybe just like you would be willing to do something small (like tree marrying) you don’t believe in, just to please your parents, make them happy and silence them, maybe he would feel the same way towards his.

    Just because he’s a man – why would he have to “stand up” with an “objective opinion”?

  13. karwa chauth

    Different name in Tamilnadu man, I wish I could wake my mom up, she does this every year, slightly different procedure, but the goal is the same.

  14. JOAT, I think that as Indian women we are also more sensitive to in-law demands precisely because the norm of the previous generation and even now is for the woman and her family to treat the in-laws’ wishes as their command – and the classic husband’s-parents would require things of their DIL that they never would of their daughter. So even if it’s relatively harmless to humour someone on these grounds, I too would be more hesitant to humour in-laws than parents because it opens a whole different can of worms. Similarly, I’d be quicker to humour a parent who is more generally respectful than one who demands something unreasonable on sexist grounds.

  15. Well, first of all, the judiciary is part of the system of government, even though it makes independent decisions, and has the right to review legislative action, so I disagree with the distinction you are making.

    First off, if the court feels its a frivilous lawsuit, it will get tossed out and there will be no question of government interference. If it does not get tossed out, even then until the court rules against Aishwarya, there is no harm done to her. That is the whole concept of a PIL. Compare this to a legislative action, where a bunch of corrupt fat overpaid elected politicians, spend time in the Parliament throwing chairs at each other and not getting much done in the end anyway. There in lies the difference between filing a PIL and legislating a law.

    Should the government really regulate the extent to which individuals choose to believe in astrology, superstition, etc?

    No the government should not stop someone from going to an astrologer. But however if someone is promoting a discriminatory practice, directly or indirectly, at some stage some branch should step in and say enough is enough. Heck, Aishwarya was the one discriminated against by. If she said no to this crap in the first place, there would be no controversy.

  16. Is there any equivalent of Karva Chauth that husbands perform for the benefit of wives?

    I asked my neighbor this once when his wife was fasting on that day and he said, “the husband gives his whole life to the wife, no need for one day fasting”.

  17. So even if it’s relatively harmless to humour someone on these grounds, I too would be more hesitant to humour in-laws than parents because it opens a whole different can of worms.

    True enough. But it’s a fine line to walk. Although I’m hesitant to humor my in-laws, I find myself doing it anyway. My parents asking me to do something unreasonable would make me rant at them for hours, for being backward, superstitious, lord-knows-what-else. When my in-laws ask, my response is more “ok, I’ll think about it.”

    I’m not entirely sure this is just norming of behavior to an accepted cultural model. Maybe. I also think the fact that you rarely know your in-laws as well as you know your own parents has something to do with it.

    For all we know, Aishwarya is doing this for the sake of her own parents rather than at the request of her future in-laws.

  18. Just because he’s a man – why would he have to “stand up” with an “objective opinion”?

    You are implying that as a woman I am not required to stand up to my parents. Are you? Because I’d expect both man and woman to raise objections to either set of parents based on the validity of the request and it’s effect on the relationship. I just believe that my objection to my parents carries more weight just as his objection to his parents for obvious reasons.

    So even if it’s relatively harmless to humour someone on these grounds, I too would be more hesitant to humour in-laws than parents because it opens a whole different can of worms. Similarly, I’d be quicker to humour a parent who is more generally respectful than one who demands something unreasonable on sexist grounds.

    You said it more succinctly. Exactly my line of thought. Unfortunately like most desi women I’ve seen the ‘harmless’ demands from in-laws ruin marriages and wreck havoc in lives of women over time in my family and circle of friends. I’m simply speaking from that POV and knowing myself.

  19. Carib Queen,

    What about the African practice of having sex with virgins to cure AIDS, what if it actually works?

    These superstitions need to rooted out of human society as they are the cause of untold misery and suffering. Astrology is merely the less poisonous part of this giant cloud of ignorance that mankind has been working to climb above. It’s merely used to rip off ignorant people.

    Gazsi

  20. My parents asking me to do something unreasonable would make me rant at them for hours, for being backward, superstitious, lord-knows-what-else. When my in-laws ask, my response is more “ok, I’ll think about it.”

    Yeah, I can see that. Though funnily enough, many of my aunts now joke that they are much more sensitive about their DIL’s feelings and walk on eggshells because they don’t want to be the stereotypical saas, while the DIL’s own mother is more likely to yell at her daughter 😉

    Is there any equivalent of Karva Chauth that husbands perform for the benefit of wives? I asked my neighbor this once when his wife was fasting on that day and he said, “the husband gives his whole life to the wife, no need for one day fasting”.

    Grooooan…that is such a desi uncle thing to say. Ugh.

  21. PPPS: Since this thread is not about that, let focus on manglik issue.

    Yes let’s. Years ago, when I was stuck on how to settle a conjecture that would amount to one half of my dissertation, I found myself with too much time on my hands and posted the following passage on a matrimonial website:

    High-status family, with extensive interests in the banana trade, seeks match for their son: 26, 5’8″, and very well-educated. Son already highly placed, with prospects to reach the very top. Seeking a comely, well-educated girl, 21-25 yrs, with an interest in both the home and the outdoors. C/D no bar; all we seek is a good family tree. Monkliks preferred. Apply with… etc., etc.

    It was utterly astonishing to me that so many “uncles” and “aunties” just failed to spot the problem with this ad. I was surprised to learn how much in-demand one could become just for declaring a preference for mangliks. After a year of good fun, I was informed by the e-matrimonial site that that I was “corrupting their database”, and that they would have to remove my advert 🙁

  22. Seeking a comely, well-educated girl,

    Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the “comely” thing in the ad bothers me more than the manglik preference thing.

    I’m going to have to figure out how to file a PIL remotely. That’s discrimination against the non-comely. 😉

  23. “Comely” looks like a typo, bet it should have been “homely” – the all-purpose matrimonial shortcut to say “home-loving” with no idea of the real meaning of the word.

  24. I’m sorry but what is comely? Is that like comatose? Or is it in the context of ‘sober’ that my father liberally uses. ‘You should be friends with that girls, she’s so sober.’ As if at this age I need my parents to dictate my friends and didn’t I see this same girl drunk at a club last weekend? 🙂

  25. Comely

    1. pleasing in appearance; attractive; fair: a comely face. 2. proper; seemly; becoming: comely behavior.

    I’ve been in relationships so bad marrying a tree would have been more exciting. Cherry Blossoms are quite sexy.

  29. “Comely” looks like a typo, bet it should have been “homely” – the all-purpose matrimonial shortcut to say “home-loving” with no idea of the real meaning of the word.

    LMAO! Right. The one that always gets me is “wheatish complexion.” I’ve seen plenty of wheat fields, and if anyone I knew was actually the color of wheat shock, I’d be worried.

  30. No, SP @ #73, it’s not a typo. I placed that ad, so I should know! Dudes… are the inneuendos in that ad (crucually, the one deliberate typo in there) too subtle!?! Maybe thay are; it took the matrimonial dot-com a full year to rumble me.

  32. You see Janeofalltrades, this thread just shows to me how narrow minded most people are, unlike people like you and I. Have you seen naked apple and orange and silver birches in bloom? Ohmygod.

    Don’t knock it until you’ve tried it, know what I mean?

    Although I do have some standards. Personally, I wouldnt marry an older tree; I mean older than 300 years. So most English Oaks are out of the question for me. And Weeping Willows, forgetaboutit, too neurotic.

  34. Khatri Hindu Punjabi male, 27, Professional (MBBS, LLb, PhD,) from good family, Green Card in application stage, skin colour not too bad, westernised but has respect for backward traditions, seeks deciduous Tree, classification no barrier, must be wheatish complexion with smooth bark that doesnt bleed sap too much, with strong roots, many branches, certified without woodworm for mutual conjugal relationship and propagation of orchards. Dowry expected, Redwoods and Spruces need not apply.

  35. all we seek is a good family tree.

    I totally missed this part, but how funny is that, in view of the current discussion? Heh. You really can’t make this stuff up, but if you’re going to…

  37. Personally, I wouldnt marry an older tree; I mean older than 300 years. So most English Oaks are out of the question for me. And Weeping Willows, forgetaboutit, too neurotic.

    My personal preference would be the North American Beech. Big I mean HUGE…can be over 20 feet wide and 100 feet tall and is the toughest and strongest of the species and lives thru storms and has a long life. Flowers of both sex, nuts grow in pairs and it feeds 100s of other living things. What more can one ask from a partner?

  40. I guess superstition is the price you pay for not having organized religion. It’s a shame she’s caught up in all of this, but the fear factor can be quite strong so in a way I do understand. As for the concept of marrying trees and pots, that’s cool. Nothing wrong with ritual. It’s meant to be meaningless. It’s those who try and read too much meaning in the symbolism who are misguided, imo.

    Here’s the one place where I sincerely admire the so-called great religions. On a foundation of smoke and mirrors they have managed to build a superstructure and to extract some meaning. As for Hindus, they stand on a rock solid foundation but the edifice is as rotten as rotten can be, and then some.

  41. LMAO! No, “caste/dowry” not “cross dresser”!! Vesternized baccha.

    “C/D” means caste/DENOMINATION – nobody mentions the other D word (dowry) in an ad explicity since its illegal.

  42. I’ve never heard “denomination” used in Indian matrimonials – kyon, GB, what was your matlab?

  44. Um, to the best of my knowledge the “caste/dowry no bar” thing is mentioned in ads precisely because it’s illegal to require a particular caste/amount of money.

  45. “We marry trees. No wonder we are referred to as macacas.”

    no, we are too conditioned to see ourselves through the eyes of others, so we are well-trained macacas:) better to be a wild macaca wedded to a tree than a tamed, chained one doing party tricks for others.

  46. no, we are too conditioned to see ourselves through the eyes of others, so we are well-trained macacas:) better to be a wild macaca wedded to a tree than a tamed, chained one doing party tricks for others.

    Hear hear! Embrace your exoticism.

  47. Um, to the best of my knowledge the “caste/dowry no bar” thing is mentioned in ads precisely because it’s illegal to require a particular caste

    Who you kidding? I’ve seen a million ads requiring a khatri, brahmin or some other xyz girl.

  48. I guess superstition is the price you pay for not having organized religion

    Arguably this particular superstition is based on the organised part of Hinduism, since it’s pandits who are supposed to do your horoscope and then do your de-manglikification….I’d laugh off the ritual myself, if I had to do it – but clearly someone in that bunch(Bachchans, Ash or her clan) takes it seriously, which is why they are doing it, no?

  49. Sakshi – yeah, things have eased up now and you see all the various castes/communities listed, but back in the day, you couldn’t mention caste and everyone wrote the obligatory “caste no bar” even while giving lots of “community” clues. Haven’t looked at the ads in a while so I don’t know what the norm is now.

  50. I find this whole thing funny and very strange. When I got married, we did none of that horoscope checking. Me or my husband could be manglik for all we know.

    Also, why doesn’t this stuff concern non indians?

    Is it really 2007?