“Come back here, man. Gimme my daughter.”

Safe.jpg

I’m swamped at work, but I’m also outraged, because of Fuerza Dulce’s latest submission to our news tab– I can’t let this go. CNN may be a bunch of assholes with sensationalism on their minds, but their story and this one are essentially about the same thing; we do not value the lives of women. Via the BBC:

A two-day-old baby girl in India has survived after being buried alive in a field by her maternal grandfather in the south of the country. The baby, who had apparently never been fed, was discovered by a farmer near a village some 150km south of Hyderabad.
He said he only spotted her because her tiny hand was sticking out of the soil.
Police say they have arrested the baby’s grandfather, 52-year-old Abdul Rahman, after he confessed to trying to kill the newborn by burying her alive.
“I am yet to marry off four daughters and cannot take responsibility for a fifth one, even when she is only a granddaughter,” Mr Rahman was quoted as telling police.

The article went on to state that he may have taken his grandchild without his dauther’s consent. His unnamed grandchild. Whom he buried. Alive.

I am so livid, I can barely type. Because of this immutable fact, I will warn you that I will shut this thread down if:

  • If “Maximum City” gets mentioned. I beg you, this is not the place.
  • I get asked, “why didn’t you post about immigration/terrorism/the story I sent in four times, instead of this predictable infanticide story?”
  • If one of you says this makes us look bad.

I really don’t care if all of the above makes me a pain in your ass or if it proves that the trolls are right and I am a bitch, after all. This doesn’t make us look bad, this IS bad.

A baby. Buried alive. Yes, it’s happened for centuries, but that doesn’t mean that reading such a story five minutes ago didn’t send a searing dagger in to my heart. We each blog about whatever moves us; there are no assignments in the bunker, no requirements or expectations. This moved me to despair. There will never be a point when we bless someone by saying, “May you be the mother of a hundred daughters“, and we are lesser for it.

244 thoughts on ““Come back here, man. Gimme my daughter.”

  1. What is the point of your comment? That we shouldn’t talk about it, or try to understand it? Is sodomy the only crime worth getting upset about? Could you help edify me as to what kind of things in India and China we are allowed to talk about? And were/are you like a child soldier in Sierra Leone or something? I am really scratching my head to figure out how somebody can be so absolutely lacking in empathy or any human grace.

    Rahul:

    I think we do understand it? I also don’t think its anything we have control over. Whereas a frivolous lawsuit is a different story. Maybe you see my logic here.

  2. Rohit, I disagree. There are several ways in which this story can help: (1) Make people aware of the magnitude and aspects of the problem they were not aware of, (2) Provide an opportunity for people to relate to their own personal experiences, as has happened, (3) Potentially make some people evaluate their own attitudes and educate themselves on it, and (4) Maybe, motivate somebody to pursue action in various forms to ameliorate the problem, by either donation or volunteering. If even a few people on the thread benefit from some of these aspects, it is worthwhile. Now, as I said in an early comment, maybe I am Dukakis-like

    I also disagree with you that the major issue in the cutting of the lock is that of a frivolous lawsuit. Independent of your personal point of view, the very fact that so many balanced people (even in the “enlightened”, “secular”, “American” audience) disagree over the implications and ramifications of that action should indicate to you that it could very well have been far more than a case of excessive rambunctiousness.

  3. Now, as I said in an early comment, maybe I am Dukakis-like

    That line got cut off. What I typed was:

    Now, as I said in an early comment, maybe I am Dukakis-like in that I try/tend not be swayed by one specific story, but much prefer to understand the statistics or context as, personally, it helps me to formulate what I feel is a more productive response. But other people tend to react differently, viscerally, and that’s their prerogative.

  4. Anna : Good luck with the adoption (not sarcasm). The more people adopt the better especially the ones who can afford. Indifference is better than outrage aka fake sympathy. The reason I call it fake sympathy is because the ranter does nothing else beyond the talk. Quite like middle class / upper class indians railing against the political system but refusing to vote. Are the outraged commenters willing to go to the under developed world (india/china) and change society? Not in most cases. I have not read one comment that provides a viable solution. Most solutions are vague generalities that don’t go beyond high school debates. The words that I read are “should,must”. Outrage results in poor solutions. But outrage channelled into appropriate solutions works wonders.

    An anecdote about Sushmita Sen that I read a few years ago was the judge refusing to sign the adoption because she was single and no man would marry her since she had an adopted child. Her father stepped in and said “I know that only a good man will want marry her coz no evil man will want a woman with an adopted child”. The judge signed the papers. Anecdote may be false 🙂

    Just a clarification : Did you mean that you are planning to adopt a girl from India or did you mean that you are adopting a girl from usa? In either case good luck.

  5. (1) Make people aware of the magnitude and aspects of the problem they were not aware of

    Awareness is overrated in this case. How many Desi’s are actually unaware of the tendency for Indian parents to prefer boy babies over girl babies? This article is just about that tendency, taken to a logical (albeit unfortunate) conclusion.

    (2) Provide an opportunity for people to relate to their own personal experiences, as has happened,

    Its ingrained into the Indian psyche that boys are preferred over girls. Not that this is a wortwhile view, but Indians don’t need therapy to realize it.

    (3) Potentially make some people evaluate their own attitudes and educate themselves on it, and (4) Maybe, motivate somebody to pursue action in various forms to ameliorate the problem, by either donation or volunteering. If even a few people on the thread benefit from some of these aspects, it is worthwhile.

    Its great that you can see so deeply into the issue, as opposed to extracting obtuse sympathy from it, via a childish outburst. And of course, your interest is genuine in the highest sense of the word. However, in the final analysis, I would have to say you are misguided. For one thing, this practice has been going on for thousands of years. When you till every acre of land with your bare hands, you need all the help you can get. Five girls in the family is clearly not beneficial to the situation. Of course, you can let the girls be born… but it doesn’t make much difference – if you’re already poor, and there’s a famine, 2 or 3 them may easily die. Bizzare as it may seem to you, having boy babies is actually crucial to the economic livelihood of these dirt poor farmers.

  6. Rohit, your reductionist argument about economics and farming are wrong. There are many farming societies which don’t see the need to kill their girl babies. Read that Amartya Sen article I linked to. You might not agree with all of it, but it definitely points to the subtlety required to make a logically consistent argument on this issue, by evaluating pure economic or cultural arguments in the global context.

    Also knowing about the existence of the issue, and being comfortable with it not to require therapy (???) are not the only point. There is the matter of figuring out why, and how it should be fixed.

    I will quote the last paragraph of that article, written in 1990. In view of the enormity of the problems of women’s survival in large parts of Asia and Africa, it is surprising that these disadvantages have received such inadequate attention. The numbers of “missing women” in relation to the numbers that could be expected if men and women received similar care in health, medicine, and nutrition, are remarkably large. A great many more than a hundred million women are simply not there because women are neglected compared with men. If this situation is to be corrected by political action and public policy, the reasons why there are so many “missing” women must first be better understood. We confront here what is clearly one of the more momentous, and neglected, problems facing the world today.

    As to how much one post changes things, I don’t know. I always ask myself how much I must really care, and whether I couldn’t actually be doing more good if I wasn’t so comfortable with being comfortable, and actually got out into the real world and made a difference. Maybe I am just a moralizing bullshitter who prefers coffee-table conversations over concrete action. I don’t know.

  7. If you can’t make your points without insulting those whom you disagree with, go elsewhere.

    Additionally, further comments regarding how this is a “stupid topic” will be deleted, if only because we are in the 200 comment range and that indicates that people would like to discuss it. So far, it seems that first generation DBDs are opposed to discussing this, so violently opposed, that several have become abusive and were banned. Second generation ABDs have not voiced similar. I would like to point out that while everyone is welcome here, this is a second-generation blog with an American focus on diasporic issues. Please stop trying to ignore that.

  8. Thanks, Rahul (for the song and for the Sen breakdown).

    The reason I call it fake sympathy is because the ranter does nothing else beyond the talk. Quite like middle class / upper class indians railing against the political system but refusing to vote. Are the outraged commenters willing to go to the under developed world (india/china) and change society? Not in most cases.

    melbournedesi, I feel you — I think this kind of goes hand in hand with guilt, which, if not translated into any tangible action, just drains the person feeling guilty and does nothing productive for people who are suffering. That said, I have reservations about people from outside the developed countries trying to “reform” the developing world. I think any lasting change in India is going to have to come from within.

    In addition to adoption, even if the commentators here realize that so much of this is ingrained/unconscious, then maybe they will take positive action to voice their opposition to anti-girl attitudes and will change their own lifestyle habits (or pay more attention) in light of this. I know that sounds silly, but attitudes have to change somewhere, and it helps if your peer group is motivated to change their attitude, as well.

  9. If they want to kill their girl babies because girls mean one less hand to till the soil (by hand, of course), that is their buisness. Not that it is ethically correct, but again, we don’t live in their country – NONE of us faces economic depravation.

    YOu know, I can’t read this anymore. Enough. I’m not sure if you even really believe what you wrote, but regardless, you chose to put your insecurities and defensiveness above women’s LIVES. I tried being reasoned and balanced above but it’s obviously easier to obliterate viewpoints than to listen. Maybe I shouldn’t be upset by what some anonymous people wrote, but the sheer forcefulness of the anti-woman wave in these comments has put me on the verge of tears. I am a woman. How dare you. How fucking DARE you.

  10. Rohit, your reductionist argument about economics and farming are wrong. There are many farming societies which don’t see the need to kill their girl babies.

    Obviously, well off farmers will not kill their babies. I don’t think I’m wrong about the economic context. Death is actually preferable to starvation. And yes, starvation is a real possibility… need I remind you that tens of thousands in India live with this possibility everyday. And many of these tens of thousands are farmers who have moved from the rural areas to the urban areas and end up sleeping in the streets, to find work because farming did not provide an adequate source of income. The problem is much bigger than a girl baby being buried in a field. In fact, the latter does not even begin to highlight the issue. Also, cultural stigma is strong in rural India. Dowry is prevalent. Not only will the family, but the girl, will become social outcastes if dowry is not paid. This, in turn, will further exacerbate the meager economic situation. Girl babies are not killed simply to obtain sympathy from CNN, even though CNN likes to think so, when it comes out with this sensationalist garbage once in a blue moon.

    Also knowing about the existence of the issue, and being comfortable with it not to require therapy (???) are not the only point. There is the matter of figuring out why, and how it should be fixed.

    Yes, if you want to introduce modern farming techniques. But I doubt that even this is a solution; I am willing to wager that the amount of land a poor farmer in India owns is very little. So even modern farming techniques would do little to increase output.

    I will quote the last paragraph of that article, written in 1990. In view of the enormity of the problems of women’s survival in large parts of Asia and Africa, it is surprising that these disadvantages have received such inadequate attention. The numbers of “missing women” in relation to the numbers that could be expected if men and women received similar care in health, medicine, and nutrition, are remarkably large. A great many more than a hundred million women are simply not there because women are neglected compared with men. If this situation is to be corrected by political action and public policy, the reasons why there are so many “missing” women must first be better understood. We confront here what is clearly one of the more momentous, and neglected, problems facing the world today.

    Men can work 12 or 16 hours straight in the fields. Men are capable of using the oxen to plow the land. Men do not have to give dowry when they marry. In the day to day survival of the patriarchal societies of these villages, no one is going to wait around for politicians or public policies to take care of his needs. These people are helping themselves, which is actually the best route. You learn from experience, and these people have 5000 years of it. No one cared until globalization came along; these people are ignoring globalization and still following the old cultural practices, which is fine.

    As to how much one post changes things, I don’t know. I always ask myself how much I must really care, and whether I couldn’t actually be doing more good if I wasn’t so comfortable with being comfortable, and actually got out into the real world and made a difference. Maybe I am just a moralizing bullshitter who prefers coffee-table conversations over concrete action. I don’t know.

    Poor people will do anything to survive. As long as its their family, and not anyone else’s, no one has a right to interfere.

  11. YOu know, I can’t read this anymore. Enough.

    Word. The comments on the past couple threads regarding females young and old are absolutely sick. And don’t think I’m not familiar with the intricacies of development micro-econ because I am. And I’m quite familiar with the crowd for whom the children-as-an-investment-model paradigm appeals to their inner misogyny. If you want to go down that route to justify your misogyny just know that your conclusions are glossed-over incomplete horseshit social darwinist economics. If you try really hard, crunch numbers, create models and you still conclude that a woman has little implicit or explicit value if she can’t till soil and thus should be sacrificed then YOUR MODELS AND THE CONCLUSIONS YOU DRAW FROM THEM ARE INCOMPLETE. I repeat, YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND YOUR MODELS ARE IDIOTIC.

    ALJKLFJDIOSJFODFJKDFJLSJFLSJKFLJDLJOISFJLKFJLKJDL!!!!!!

    Whew, ok, I’m calm now. We’ve got some work to do. ABD, DBD, PVC, DoD, BCBG, it doesn’t matter. Find a misogynistic desi and engage them in a pleasant discourse regarding this topic and then yank that latent loutish lunacy out of them.

    Anna, major props to your dad for calling a douchebag a douchebag. Sometimes there’s no need to be civil.

  12. Obviously, well off farmers will not kill their babies.

    Rohit, your argument completely ignores empirical data. Firstly, in India, well off farmers do kill their babies, specifically their female babies. As was mentioned earlier, some of the richest states in India have the highest rates of female infanticide/foeticide. This is not because of a disproportionate weighting of lower classes killing their girls — it happens across socioeconomic groups. Thus, empirical economics do not seem to be the driving factor when families decide whether or not to kill their girls.

    Secondly, for your argument to hold, you would have to look at comparable agrarian societies (e.g. countries within sub-Saharan Africa) and see if there is a similar prevalence of girl-child killing. Empirically, female infanticide doesn’t exist to the same degree in those societies, and it is not because subsistence farmers in Africa are significantly richer than subsistence farmers in India. In the literature and from field experience we know that women in most sub-Saharan African countries are often kept from going to school so that they can work in the fields, where they work for 12-16 hours, often longer, just as their male counterparts do in other parts of the world. Your argument is based on assumptions on both the nature and value of women’s work (i.e. that women are weaker, less productive, do not contribute to the work in the household). Your economic rationale does not hold. I am not being unsympathetic to the issue of agrarian poverty, or poverty more broadly, but it is ridiculous to argue that this phenomena is unique to economics or wealth.

    Poor people will do anything to survive. As long as its their family, and not anyone else’s, no one has a right to interfere.

    This is also ridiculous. So the social mores that a community adopts do not apply within the private household or within an entire class of people? Thankfully law doesn’t (in theory) work that way. Maybe this is simply a divergence of political opinion, but people do not have the “right” to kill their family members so long as it’s “in the family.” Furthermore, it is ignorant, in my opinion, to paint the issue of female infanticide as a phenomena unique to poor people; I think poor people are simply more likely to be criminalized/punished for actions that are taking place across economic groups.

  13. YOUR MODELS AND THE CONCLUSIONS YOU DRAW FROM THEM ARE INCOMPLETE. I repeat, YOU ARE AN IDIOT AND YOUR MODELS ARE IDIOTIC.

    Thank you! I am tired of people making shit up and explaining it in economic terms. It’s comfortable, isn’t it, to pretend this is about economics and not about misogyny?

    I said this less eloquently above, but your economic “models/theories” do not hold water when tested against empirical data. That doesn’t mean the data is wrong, it means your assumptions and your model are wrong, and so are your conclusions.

  14. “Although she never took off her protective gear and yelled “No living man am I!”.

    That’s because she never had to face a witch king 🙂

  15. you chose to put your insecurities and defensiveness above women’s LIVES…Maybe I shouldn’t be upset by what some anonymous people wrote, but the sheer forcefulness of the anti-woman wave in these comments has put me on the verge of tears. I am a woman. How dare you. How fucking DARE you.

    Word, Aanchal. Preach it. I’m amazed at the amount of deliberate ignorance we’ve seen about women in the last few days. I am upset by what some anonymous people wrote, too. I think we should be. These people are our community.

    Trollish newbies who all seem overwhelmingly DBD: Instead of having a knee-jerk reaction which emanates from an unnecessary defensiveness of India and her culture, how about reading what people have tried to explain here? Also, newsflash– India doesn’t want or need insecure, jingoism-espousing defenders like you. She’s strong enough to tolerate contradiction and complexity, too bad you aren’t more like her.

  16. So far, it seems that first generation DBDs are opposed to discussing this Trollish newbies who all seem overwhelmingly DBD

    Whoa, whoa, whoa! Let’s not draw conclusions about the easily 100,000+ DBDs (or FOBs or green eyed martians, or whatever you’d like to call them) from the 10 or so people who have commented on this thread. Let me posit an alternative explanation: Maybe there are many ABDs who feel this way too, but it is culturally ingrained in them not to express their views in public, because they will immediately (and justifiably) get a lot of flak. Maybe the FOBs who feel the same way just don’t know any better. And using the term DBDs when painting the group as knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers does not make your statements any less pejorative than if you use the term FOB or whatever.

    Think about replacing some of your sentences to refer to some of the other groups we’ve been talking about, and see if you think those sentences would pass muster.

    I don’t want to derail the thread any more by going on and on about ABD examples of “jingoism-espousing defenders” etc., but I’d rather deal with individual commenters or comments or a particular attitude, than trying to tar and feather entire groups of people without any sound basis.

  17. Nice work, No Von Mises. I do have one quibble though:

    BD, DBD, PVC, DoD, BCBG

    Did you mean CBGB?

  18. Maybe there are many ABDs who feel this way too, but it is culturally ingrained in them not to express their views in public, because they will immediately (and justifiably) get a lot of flak.

    There is some truth to this (not necessarily pertaining to this post). Thanks for recognizing this. Some of my views are probably more in line with some DBDs (again, not necessarily in this thread), but sometimes I hesitate to express them because overall I enjoy a very friendly, warm dialogue with most people on this site, and that’s more important to me (being a reasonably well-respected member of this community) than to get into big fights with people for no purpose, just for the sake of making my point or forcefully expressing my views. And, as above (comment #150), sometimes I can’t even defend my own views too well…but I’m not ashamed to admit that. In general, I’m willing to change my views on things if people are convincing enough. But getting back to what you said, there could definitely be an element of some ABDs like me holding back on expressing everything we feel, for fear of the ‘flak’ that could result. I try to choose my words carefully, but where I feel it’s important, I will state exactly what I think.

  19. Also, newsflash– India doesn’t want or need insecure, jingoism-espousing defenders like you. She’s strong enough to tolerate contradiction and complexity, too bad you aren’t more like her.

    Well-said!

  20. Yesterday while reading about Gurdas Mann, I read on Wiki that his son goes to Eton in the UK, and likely Gurdas Mann has taken up the benefit of the diaspora. Good for him, and its quite a model

    I think its a different thing to say that in India, say Punjab, that one can tackle this with a discussion of the inherent misogyny of the social dynamics. Maybe I’m wrong here. But I feel the freedom to do this kind of introspection is something one can find better in, for lack of a better term here, the OECD countries, particularly in Western Europe and the anglosphere. The anglosphere being maybe the most free part of a very imperfect world. It could be that is a tremendous over-statement, but, maybe it’s not

    That’s why I think a whole-hearted push to make India more like the OECD societies is something more broad; that would automatically work its way towards anti=caste and anti-women policies. Just today I read another incident where in Punjab a woman was paraded naked in her village; presumably it was a caste issue as well as an issue of misogyny.

    Misogyny is not just behind these actions, these actions spur misogny; these are dehumanizing acts that cause likely chain-reactions

    Its simply untenable to deny that South Asian society needs changing, its flawed. Its not working for everyone. Speaking as someone who loves Punjabi culture, Indian culture, and South Asian culture

    ps – is there any period of desi movie songs that matches the 50’60’s?

  21. Thanks, Rahul (for the song

    I don’t know much about much, but I’m happy to steer people in the right direction 😛

    is there any period of desi movie songs that matches the 50’60’s?

    You meant Hindi 🙂 I think the corresponding period for Tamil music is the late 70s to mid 80s, during Ilayaraaja’s halcyon period.

  22. For those of you who don’t know, Anna’s sister is in Iraq right now, slaughtering babies (and entire families) by the dozen. Therefore it is amusing to see Anna sobbing over a baby left to die by a poor farmer who couldn’t afford to raise her.

  23. What is it with people and their nasty ad-hominem attacks? “Observer”, that was beyond uncalled for, and completely irrelevant to the current discussion.

  24. to those of u asked me why i married the guy with such thoughts; well I had no idea he had such thoughts. you normally dont talk with your “prospective” about such things and it was an arranged marraige, so i met him just 3-4 times n mostly in the company of parents and relatives. as to why i still stay with him yes i am considering going back. i just needed a strong enough reason as his parents are very nice to me. trying their best to accomodate me as im from a very different background (they are extremely traditional). im being very cautious because it will cause them extreme distress and sadly his dad is a heart patient.

  25. observer: For those of you who don’t know, Anna’s sister is in Iraq right now, slaughtering babies (and entire families) by the dozen. Therefore it is amusing to see Anna sobbing over a baby left to die by a poor farmer who couldn’t afford to raise her.
    Rahul: What is it with people and their nasty ad-hominem attacks? “Observer”, that was beyond uncalled for, and completely irrelevant to the current discussion.

    Not to mention incorrect.

    “observer”, is that all you’ve got? She is doing no such thing, not that I owe someone like you an explanation. I’m also sickened by how you characterized the callous disposal of this two-day old baby; she was not “left to die”, she was BURIED ALIVE. Are you so consumed with hating on me that you can’t read? Shame on you.

    My sister does not blog here. She does not blog anywhere. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me, not my family members who have nothing to do with this.

  26. For anyone who believes that the sex-ratio in India is not being noticed by the Govt. of India at its highest levels, you need to read the 11th 5-year plan (2007-2012) which explicitly states as one of its objectives to rectify this problem:

    Improve sex ratio to 935 by 2011-12 and to 950 by 2016-17 (wikipedia.org)

  27. A N N A, if “Observer” has a problem with your opinions, he/she should make that point. Resorting to personal attacks is the last resort of somebody who has realized that they are incapable of making convincing arguments in support of their viewpoint. You know the “other side” has lost the debate when this is the best they can come up with. I don’t think it is necessary or justified for you to deflect these vicious attacks on your (uninvolved) sister by inviting or deflecting them onto yourself.

    pooja, I am not good with expressing empathy for people I don’t know (I would also never have dared to ask you the questions which some of these people posed without actually talking to you), and I hope I don’t sound platitudinous, but good luck with whatever decision you make, and focus on your personal wellbeing while doing so. The most impactful aspects of some of these latest posts, for me at least, have been the tramautic personal experiences that people have shared. It is one thing to know about these issues in the abstract, and understand the aggregates as I have tried to, but it is a whole another ballgame to see deserving people have their lives turned upside down because of irrational biases.

  28. << blockquote >>”observer”, is that all you’ve got? She is doing no such thing, not that I owe someone like you an explanation. I’m also sickened by how you characterized the callous disposal of this two-day old baby; she was not “left to die”, she was BURIED ALIVE. Are you so consumed with hating on me that you can’t read? Shame on you. <>

    Listen ANNA:

    Your sister joined a war thats gotten over 150,000 Iraqi’s killed in less than 6 years. Your sister WILLINGLY joined that war, meaning she WILLINGLY supports the VIOLENT methods being used to IMPLEMENT it. Also, your sister is TRAINED to kill. TRAINED to be impassive to death. Are you going to lie and say she doesn’t carry a gun? And yes, the US Army does kill Iraqi civilians; every Army does it – an ARMY is a KILLING MACHINE.

    Now, why don’t you start a thread for all the Iraqi babies who die/are neglected everyday because of a war YOUR sister willingly participates in?

    Why don’t you start a thread for the 500,000 Iraqi children who died due to US/Britain (your sister’s MASTERS) economic sanctions of Iraq during Saddam’s time?

    I know why! Because you, possessing such a craving for attention, would rather start a thread focused on a single baby, a TOTALLY isolated incident, just so you can feel better! Here’s some advice: GROW UP! Reality doesn’t revolve around you and your irrelevent feelings!

  29. You know nothing. My sister is not in the Army and she was in the military long before this war was a glimmer in our useless president’s eye. Now go beat out your hate erection and stop spewing your incorrect rantings here. Talk about irrelevance…no one wants to read you.

    You don’t know my sister so don’t talk about her, if only because you have been wrong about every shitty thing you have accused her of. And that really does make you an asshole.

    Learn how to read– a long-time reader POSTED this story to the newstab, while other readers sent it in because they wanted to see it and discuss it on this site, which is well within their rights. You’re so consumed with your stupid negativity, you have to dismiss the truth– this is not an isolated incident. It happens. Our readers were upset by it. So yeah, obviously I pulled this story out of my ass and wrote about this news to get attention. Get over your irrational hate for me.

  30. And abused men (there are many) will certainly never put on a F****ing show!

    post # 180, comon: I am surprised that you think that it’s easy for women to “put on a show.” Given the huge under-reporting of rape, harassment in the workplace, and child abuse, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. It is not easy to speak up (even)when when you’re bring groped forcefully in public, or being harassed on the street.

    I pride myself on being an independent woman who has been exposed to a fair bit of feminist thinking, and yet I’m ashamed to say that I’ve never called out a male for acting like a jerk (and believe me there have been several occasions when I should have). This includes family friends, relatives, and your average joe on the street. I’ve actually cried and begged people not to intervene precisely because I was afraid of confrontation and did not want to “make a scene.” And this inability to confront this sort of behavior allows these persons to continue without impunity because they never face any censure or consequences.

    Once, shopping in a busy Delhi bazaar as a child, I saw a woman actually yell at a guy for pinching her ass and groping her breasts. All activity ceased around us for a moment, and people were mesmerized by this raging woman, who was middle-aged and not what you would call super-attractive. Basically, pretty much all the adults around me were thinking that this woman was being unnecessarily touchy and no one really stood up for her. Another time a sixteen year old cousin of mine was standing on the street and some guy casually walked up to us and slapped her bottom hard. I was about ten or so and completely taken aback by his brazenness. Lots of people saw that and no one cared. She herself thought that it was some younger cousin horsing around and couldn’t react in time. These are but a few incidents that I (a girl from a fairly “sheltered” upper-middle class family, you can extrapolate from that how much more crap women have to face if they have access to even fewer resources and less-supportive social networks ) saw and ever since then I’ve always been hesitant to speak up when I face idiots like this in public (be it in the clubs of DC or the streets of Delhi).

    In conclusion, fellow-women, put on a show if you need to. You have my support and admiration. I know it’s hard and embarrassing (and people will dismiss you for it sometimes and call you a shrill hag), but we need to take back the streets. It’ll be a sweet day when we can be out walking by ourselves in some random park on a moonlit night, without our families worrying that we’ll never be back. I wait for the day when people will let their daughters stay out as late as their sons. When women will not have to hesitate before signing up for the night shift. When it’ll be okay to wear whatever you please without being called a slut. When either men stop appearing shirtless in public or no one raises their eyebrows when women go topless (no, I’m not being facetious).

  31. I wait for the day when… it’ll be okay to wear whatever you please without being called a slut. When either men stop appearing shirtless in public or no one raises their eyebrows when women go topless (no, I’m not being facetious).

    i wait for the day when the word slut is eradicated from everybody’s vocabulary. i hate its implications – that people are judged for their sexual activity – as well as the fact that it is predominantly only used to judge women. as for female toplessness – i think a canadian woman, several years ago, successfully rallied for the right of women to be treated equally as their fellow male citizens in this regard.

    re the comments lamenting the ‘waste of space’ on this topic – i think it’s horrific that anybody feels they have the right to kill a two-day old baby, no matter what the gender, no matter what the reason. i do not discount the economic and social burdens prevailing on this family, but in the absence of a total turnaround in the mentality towards this circumstance, i hope that more communities come up with some sort of alternative. i know in some indian locailities – salem in TN, for instance – there are venues to give up your child, no questions asked, just as fire stations serve the same purpose in the states. even if that child’s life might not be perfect under this route, at least he/she would have the option of living that life.

  32. My sister is not in the Army and she was in the military long before this war

    The army is a branch of the military.

    You don’t know my sister so don’t talk about her, if only because you have been wrong about every shitty thing you have accused her of. And that really does make you an asshole.

    Sorry to break it to you, Abu Grahib wasn’t one of those shopping expeditions you like to feature all over flixster. By the way, if the loss of life bothers you so much, how do you tolerate your sister being in the army?

    < blockquote> Learn how to read– a long-time reader POSTED this story to the newstab, while other readers sent it in because they wanted to see it and discuss it on this site, which is well within their rights. You’re so consumed with your stupid negativity, you have to dismiss the truth– this is not an isolated incident. It happens. Our readers were upset by it. So yeah, obviously I pulled this story out of my ass and wrote about this news to get attention. Get over your irrational hate for me.

    Excuse me but your DESPERATE need for SYMPATHY shows clearly enough in the following words:

    < blockquote> I am so livid, I can barely type. Because of this immutable fact, I will warn you that I will shut this thread down if:

    If “Maximum City” gets mentioned. I beg you, this is not the place. I get asked, “why didn’t you post about immigration/terrorism/the story I sent in four times, instead of this predictable infanticide story?” If one of you says this makes us look bad.

    As far as I’m concerned, you’re the ONLY blogger who would post a story threatening to ban people who spoke against it. CLEAR and incontrovertible evidence of your insecurity. It doesn’t matter who sent the story in, the way you posted it, centering around your supposed “lividness” says everything. You were so “livid” you felt the need to ban dissenters. This shows why your sympathy is fake; personally I don’t even think you care about the baby, you just wanted to ban people and in the process gain attention!

  33. And allowing for regional differences, in general, what practice do Indian Muslims adopt? Dowry? Or bride price?

    Its dowry all the way for Indian Muslims. Some of them of course have moved away from this practice but its still pretty common. Dowry is similarly common in Pakistan as well.

  34. Dude, Observer, chill out. Your critique has nothing to do with the post/topic at hand — it’s just an excuse to lampoon ANNA. If you can’t engage in civil dialogue, then why are you here? Even if you had made a more cogent connection between the War and this incident (which would be a stretch and absolutely need not include ANNA’s sister or ANNA’s family for that matter), what purpose would it serve?

    I’m not surprised ANNA had to ask that people refrain from making specific comments because, in case you haven’t noticed, there seems to be some kind of stupidity virus flying around that makes people think that the anonymity of the internet allows them to be vicious and off-topic, particularly when it comes to anything ANNA posts. If you don’t like what you’re reading, then stop reading SM, or stop reading ANNA’s posts, or better yet, start your own blog and post about your feelings.

  35. All these Anna hating posts just serve to re-confirm the premise of this blog. They are shining cyber examples that gender bias is alive in well in the real world of Desi 2007.

  36. 239 · Desi Feminista on July 8, 2007 06:46 PM · Direct link All these Anna hating posts just serve to re-confirm the premise of this blog. They are shining cyber examples that gender bias is alive in well in the real world of Desi 2007.

    Sorry to break it to you, but this has nothing to do with anti-feminism. Neither does the article have anything to do with feminism. Dirt-poor villagers don’t give a rats ass about feminism. If feminism put food on the table, they would be all for it.

    Swati said… Why do people assume that its envy? Is it the same people who are so sure the blogger is a female, so its natural to assume one woman can’t say anything to another woman without it arising out of jealousy? In today’s media saturated culture, people who crave attention whether its famous people or people who think they should be famous like this girl ANNA (given her nutty online “empire”) should usually expect a backlash or criticism based on that. I really don’t have any sympathy for ANNA and find her trite and overwelmingly meaningless. And if someone made up a blog to comment on ridiculous they think other people are, then that’s their right. You fools (the ones so offended by this) make up blogs everyday. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:51sVyTIJFOEJ:unsuitablegal.blogspot.com/2007/05/nice-dose-of-hypocrisy-with-my-morning.html+Anna,+Swati&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
  37. Sorry to break it to you, but this has nothing to do with anti-feminism. Neither does the article have anything to do with feminism. Dirt-poor villagers don’t give a rats ass about feminism. If feminism put food on the table, they would be all for it.

    Feminism promotes educating women, respecting their opinions, legacies, and stories. This has actually improved cultures and civilizations far more than most people would like to admit because of their own insecurities and prejudice. Dirt poor villagers wouldn’t be burying live babies if they realized women and men have equal worth in education, the job market, and family. Feminism brings it to the table, maybe you just choked on it.

  38. “Anna” probably feels great that this thread got 240 replies. The real reason? 95% of the rest of the site is also filled with her attention deficit disorder spawned lunacy. Talk about “selection.”

  39. The idiots need some serious introspection. The patheticness never fails to amaze. Get a life already you losers. And ANNA, just ignore the bastards.

    Anyway, Sahej, Gurdas Maan is great, but I feel a lot of his talent was squandered on poor songs and albums. I don’t know all his stuff, but his stand-out tracks (to me) are Ki Banu Duniya Da, Taun Surahi Vargi, Punjabiye Zubaaney, Sajna Ve Sajna, Challa, Inj Nahin Karinde, Apna Punjab, and maybe a few others that are escaping my mind right now. By the way, he has been critical of women for failing to adhere to tradition, and also for adopting snobby attitudes and looking down on Punjabi and Hindi (and being too proud of speaking English).

    I just found this video on youtube recently. It’s one of my favorite songs of his, and even though the video is corny, I encourage everyone to watch it.

  40. “Anna” probably feels great that this thread got 240 replies.

    I like how you put that in quotes like that’s “allegedly her name”. I can’t imagine what dull lives a few of you lead, that you feel the need to obsess about a blogger you don’t even know. If you have such a problem with her, don’t read her, in fact ignore her– hate is the flip-side of love.

    This thread is past the point of saving. To those who actually discussed the issues instead of personally attacking others, thanks.