I know I’m plowing a slightly old furrow here (Manish blogged about this product when it launched back in ’05), but in light of the Guardian commentary today by Sarita Malik that Red Snapper posted on the news tab, and the latest round of skin-ism and politics-of-appearance debates on the comment threads, I thought it might be useful to reproduce the scientific chart to the right. It’s an analysis by Emami Ltd., the makers of “Fair and Handsome” skin lightening creme for men.
The product website is a gold mine of manipulation, insecurity generation, and odd Indian advertising lingo, complete with a list of “free sample receivers” and “hey gals! give your opinion also” exhortations. It’s also, obviously, testimonial that at least in Desh, skin-ism is still in deep effect.
We all know intutively that the phenomenon extends to the diaspora, but how much, and with what consequences, is a matter of (endless) discussion. I have to say that although I found Malik’s commentary well written and to the point, she offered little concrete evidence of skin color discrimination among desis in the UK, and she undermined her piece by referring to Fair and Handsome as a Hindustan Lever (makers of Fair & Lovely) product, which it isn’t.
It’s already a HUGE business, so I guess for some people they do eventually work.
What about India’s “breast cream” by Ayur?
Has anyone here ever used it? I admit I have. But not long enough to see any results. And I came to the conclusion that what makes it looks like it works is the upward motion of the massage you have to do while applying it. Yeah, I imagine if you massage your breasts upward everyday for a year, there will be some noticeable difference, with or without cream. I’ve got some funny tales to tell about buying it though.
One of Biotherm’s top selling creams is called Bust Up “Intensive Bust Firming Gel”. The concept is the same as anti cellulite creams. Over a period of time it makes the appearance of uneven skin/fat appear smoother and makes the skin soft. I promise you no cream out there on earth can brow a woman’s breasts just by rubbing it in. 🙂
in my family i am the only one with a dark complexion. very dark. while all in my immedeate family are as light as an italian or most latin appear to be. i think it’s a recessive gene. my grandma and an aunt are the same.
anyhow i’ve grown up in three countries: benares, india; all over puerto rico; and new jersey. and honestly the only place that i’ve to encounter any sort of prejudice due to complexion was in jersey. family members had teasing comments, puerto rico was brutal during school, but the garden state was the only place where i was left be.
bllsht like fair skin cream really messes with kids’ esteem. luckily i came to this state at an early enough age to gain back confidence and begin to appreciate my skin tone.
I don’t buy this. It’s more likely that these attractive girls found someone they were attracted to, as opposed to being dumped by Indian guys because they were dark skinned, which last time I checked, is pretty much the colour of the average Indian, give or take away some shades of brown. Which by the way, the average white does not really care. Please everyone. Haven’t you seen really ugly women and men who are light-skinned? And really gorgeous dark-skinned people? (Check Heroes and Lost TV series). So, you are either attractive or you aren’t. Changing your skin colour doesn’t do much in the West, and even in India. Except of course, if you want to get into Bollywood.
This is something I can believe.
That’s precisely the ridiculousness of it all, those ‘few shades of brown’ make ALL the difference in India. I can completely believe that these girls were given less than flattering attention by some Indian guys (and their families) because of skin color. In India, I definitely know some really beautiful women who have hard time finding guys coz of dark skin.
Thanks for the very feminist take, Mistress of Spices :/ Great thing to have gender equality at last, innit? 😀
Perhaps because a lot of marriages in India are arranged, and so these superficial things are given predominance betwen families. In Europe, lighter skin and being chubby were signs of beauty in the middle ages, because rich people stayed indoors and had food to eat. Of course, in our age, most people work indoors, and rich people can afford holidays and get tanned. And they can afford healthy food, instead of McDonald’s. So, tanned and skinny is good. Pale skin and fat is bad.
I guess it is the other way around in India.
Absolutely. And don’t forget Naipaul’s report (in his book “The Middle Passage”) on the very subtle gradations of skin-color in the West Indies: “white, fusty, musty, dusty, tea, coffee, cocoa, light black, dark black.”
The human intelligence (I use the noun as neutrally as possible) is able to make extremely fine distinctions, and this is an ability that’s not restricted to India.
In response to http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004075.html#comment110459 the dupatta and the gloves are also used to protect against pollution. I am not sure about the fashion aspect of it though……….
Ok…if you’re referring to Sendhil Ramamurthy and Navin Andrews, they are really not THAT dark. The people that have a hard time finding a husband are darker than that, or come from a family where everyone else is fairer so the expectations are different. Personally I don’t know anyone who had a hard time finding a husband but I have heard it happens.
Not true…I am quite a different color where they sun don’t shine. “Wheatish” under my clothes, “dark” outside them. So the amount of sun exposure I get does affect how dark I am. Why do you think Indian moms are always telling their daughters to stay out of the sun?
I know next to nothing about the West Indies, but I think I remember a black West Indian friend talking about how things were segregated (officially or unofficially?) based on these gradations. He mentioned cricket teams in particular – something about the whites creating teams for each shade in order to pit ethnic groups against each other, and how that influenced his (negative) perception of the South Asians growing up.
I was always under the impression it is mainly the mothers, sisters, and aunties who ask their daughters/sisters/nieces not to go out in the sun because they will get dark. I am not saying all the guys are good. Just, in most of the cases guys do not dare to talk about this issue.
I have been in US (LA) for 5+ years and I have always been of medium brown shade.
Every time I go back home, someone definitely gives me this line
“Hmmmm.. how come you have not become fairer after living in US for so long!! “
WTF? I didn’t know that fusty, musty & dusty were colors. They sound more like cute names for pets.
Sadly I have faced this response more often than I care to remember and it has never made any sense to me. I tell my loving, tact-challenged rellies that Houston has almost the same climate as Kolkata (sic).
I say “I know!!! I’m very disappointed myself.”. I usually have no way to tell if they get the sarcasm. But the conversation moves on to something else, at least.
u rock
By the way this reminds me.. I remember in my teenage years, the best way to earn some brownie points with a dusky babe was to profess utmost admiration for the beauty of Kajol. Wonder who has taken her place as brownine points earner these days!
The implication is that it is somehow hopeless ineptitude on our part that we are still as dark as the moonless night despite the best efforts of our host country. OK, I admit that I myself do, on occasion, go outside… during the daytime!!! But I’m working on it and am seeking therapy (behavioural not topical)
Do you mean dusky or dusty? According to our Naipaul officionados this is an important difference and could affect my advice to you. In general, I would avoid dusty babes.
That is so typically dumb.
You feed their ignorance with this response. As if living in New York would have made you fairer.
Definitely dusky , not dusty (or maybe only when the dustiness is mutually induced 😀 )
By the way do u mean “officionados” or “afficionados” 😉
Kajol is much fairer than your average indian. This is all so very silly.
You better believe it. This is exactly the double standard that I am refering too. Those few shades of brown make all the difference. When doing my undergrad in India, there was an attractive dark skinned girl who the guys would talk about and say things like “she would have been hot if not for her dark skin”. I have seen this kind of shit first hand. I don’t really know where it stems from, but its deeply ingrained in Indian society. Heres my take on it…. historically India has seen a lot of dominance of lighter skin. Aryans dominated the Dravidians, Mughals (lighter skinned Muslim Rulers from Persia etc.) dominated much of North India for centuries, and finally the British. The lower castes in the caste system which has been around for thousands of years are generally darker skinned also. The Mughals and British used the caste system to their advantage and favored the higher caste people of what they considered “good stock”. This also lead to a “Persianified” or “Caucasianised” sense of beauty and hierarchy and the influence of this carries on to the current day. People call this “Colonial hangover” and what not. I would like to call it “the inertia of light skinned dominance”. I can back up each one of these statements with facts and a source, if I had more time. I am not just pulling this out of my ass. This may sound hard for someone born and brought up in America to understand and digest, but its reality in India.
Hahahaha, thats hilarious! Haven’t got that yet, but I can totally see it coming.
Cisco- what Manu says about the chances of meeting a nice brown boy being diminished for dark-skinned Indian women makes sense to me. Even in this day and age, men are still (for the most part) approaching and initiating the contact in the mating game. If darker-skinned Indian women are approached by less Indian men vs. lighter-skinned Indian women, then the chances of a dark-skinned Indian woman meeting a “nice brown boy” are, indeed, diminished. Yes, they may end up with someone non-Indian because they happened to find someone they were attracted to who was non-Indian, but with less Indian guys around them, simple statistics tells us it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian. I’ve seen this with darker-skinned friends of mine, both men and women, and it’s a sad reality.
Ok, I agree it is stupid for people to ask why you’re not fairer after living in the US, but it’s not totally unreasonable to think it might happen. My family always comments on how much fairer I am when I go back to India and while it might be annoying, it’s true. Both my parents and I are several shades lighter than when we first moved here, and I’ve seen it with my cousins who grew up in India and came here for grad school/jobs. I’m quite dark regardless (darker than Parminder Nagra who someone described on another thread as being on the “dark end of the spectrum”. Also, as an aside, try being a small desi ER doctor with long hair and see how many times you get told you look like her) but am definitely darker after either a week in Mexico on the beach, or 10+ years living in India. People can change color overall. Probably not everyone does. And THAT’s why, as I said in an earlier post on this thread, Indian moms tell their kids not to go out in the sun. My mom didn’t tell me that, so I do, so I know I can change color quite dramatically, despite being dark already. So be annoyed at people who comment on how fair you did or didn’t get while living in the US, but they’re rude, not factually incorrect.
Great. So other Indians see me with my husband and think, she married him because she was too dark to get an Indian guy? This is absurd. Sure, there might be guys who thought I wasn’t good looking enough because I was too brown, but I guarantee for every one of those there was one that thought I was cute. I didn’t marry my white husband because I couldn’t find an Indian boy who liked me, or because I don’t like Indian boys. I married him because I love him and he just happens to not be Indian. I’ve dated Indian guys; I’ve been attracted to Indian guys; I’ve even been in love with Indian guys. I DID NOT marry a white guy because I was forced to because of my skin color, and it’s insulting to everyone in this equation to suggest that that this is a common occurence, or as you put it ,a “sad reality”. Did any of those people actually admit to you that that’s why they married a white guy? I seriously doubt it. I never felt like I couldn’t marry an Indian guy if that’s what I wanted.
What’s so sad about it anyway? It’s not like 1 billion desis are suddenly going to melt into oblivion because I or anyone else married a white guy.
I am willing to admit that being dark could make an arranged marriage harder, but that’s because it’s more than just finding a mutual attraction. I remember a funny line from Missisipi Masala…”you can be dark and have money, you can be fair and have no money, but you can’t be dark and have no money and expect to marry Hari Patel” or something to that effect… It’s about the status of having a fair wife, daughter in law, or grandchildren; I admit there are status issues involved in “love marriages” too, but usually more subtle. And I don’t think the desi women who might be having a hard time finding an arranged match are then driven to marry white boys…it just seems rather far fetched.
desishiksa- I believe you’ve setup a straw-man argument in post 74. In no way am I saying every dark-skinned woman who ends up with a non-Indian man did so because she wasn’t approached by enough Indian men. As I said in my post “Yes, [dark-skinned Indian women] may end up with someone non-Indian because they happened to find someone they were attracted to who was non-Indian, but with less Indian guys around them, simple statistics tells us it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian.” Maybe I should clarify this statement: it is more probable they will end up with a non-Indian vs. fair-skinned Indian women ending up with a non-Indian.
From what I’ve seen / heard from many Indian women, the pool of Indian men to choose from is smaller for dark skinned Indian women vs. light skinned Indian women. One cannot deny that this bias exists in the Indian and Indian American communities. I’ve heard the complaint from many dark skinned Indian women that they are often “passed over” for their lighter skinned friends by Indian men, whereas non-Indian men don’t care about their skin color or even find it “exotic”. The end result being that the light skinned Indian women have more options when it comes to Indian men, whereas the dark skinned Indian women have less options when it comes to Indian men. This isn’t to say that either group can’t find true love with an Indian or non-Indian man. I say it is a “sad reality” because I think it is sad that this color bias exists.
You are taking this a little too personally here. VMN Rao is talking about the “sad realities” of brown people having double standards about their own skin color. Just because he said that the chances of a dark brown girl meeting an Indian guy are reduced by this does not imply that all brown women who are married to white guys did because they could not find an Indian guy.
Oops… looks like he beat me to it
Thats BS. Living in America does not make desis “much fairer”.
Very true. Which is why, as you point out, the darker-skinned desi women are much better off if they are outside India, and are open to relationships with non-desi men.
V true. Some brown guys overseas still have the same colour complex when it comes to women of their own ethnicity at the end of the day, although I have to say a lot of them don’t too (and the non-prejudiced ones are usually hotter ;)…
True enough. The non-prejudiced ones are usually those who don’t have to or care to think about “improving” their family genetics by marrying someone fairer.
Here’s a more “scientific” version of the question (Razib??!!!). I’ve been discussing a lot of eugenics-related issues with friends lately, so these keep popping into my mind. Is it somehow ingrained in human beings to prefer the fairest skin possible in a particular environment?
Here’s what I mean, from the Darwinian POV: Fair skin has a certain evolutionary disadvantage (burns easier, cannot withstand sun), so would be a negative trait to have in sunny tropical places. However, in less sunny places like Europe, it confers no particular advantage that I can think of. So the only way for a fair-skinned race to develop would be if fair skin was repeatedly sexually selected for, over a long period of time. This selection continued until a point was reached where the skin is as fair as possible, but can still withstand the sun in that region.
I just pulled that argument out of my a$$. It does make sense to me, but feel free to counter it.
ps: The above argument works only under the assumption that the ‘original’ human beings who moved out of Africa were dark-skinned.
My mom diligently downed portions of Saffron and Milk every day of her pregnancy. Thank you mom for all this fairness, else I’d have been dark like you and dad.
Technophobicgeek, part of the reason people in cold, northern climes are fair is because a lot of vitamin d is actually made by the skin (though obviously some comes in the diet)…and you need a certain amount of sunlight for that. If you live in a cold clime, with limited sunshine, then it’s advantageous to have less pigment (so the necessary vitamin d synthesis can take place more easily).
Thanks Amitabh, I think you just saved my remaining faith in humanity 🙂
Just tell people that the TV character is based on you. Don’t forget to mention the time you treated the show’s director and he got the idea…
Are you calling me a liar?
Anyway, I’m not speaking for “desis” in general, only pointing out that I, a desi, am significantly lighter. It’s logical. No tropical sun, less sun because I’m often indoors, travel by car…decreased melanin production.
I think living in America does make you darker. More outdoor activities, less pollution therefore more sun’s rays getting through. Sun doesn’t have to be tropical to get the melanin going. Plus we have less of a culture of sun avoidance here so we are less likely to cover up when we are out in the sun. Not necessarily a good thing of course given the health issues of sun exposure.
The reason there are less Indian guys is simply because if you live in the West, and live in a diverse community, you are more likely to meet non-Indians than Indians. And if you are second/third-generation, you will feel more connection with non-Indians than with FOB Indians. Does that shock you?
Not every Indian is obsessed with skin colour, and if you judge someone by superficial traits, then that person is better off without you. We are natural tanned, ok? Let’s move on, and for those that carry their mother’s sun phobia, please don’t teach that to your kids. Enjoy the sun and the beach. And be proud when you go to India.
well said, Cisco, and I hope that’s the final word on the matter.
Cisco- it shocks me that you totally missed my point when I thought it was clear as day, yes. My statement about “less Indian guys” was comparing the number of Indian guys in the dating pool of dark-skinned vs. light-skinned Indian women. Both groups are in the West, both groups live in a diverse community. I assume you do not believe the color bias exists among Indian Americans? If so, I disagree.
On the contrary, a friend of mine in gradshcool had this theory that ABDs had a slightly darker complexion than IBDs. None of his explainations made any sense to me..but a couple of times I too noticed this during diwali night/garba etc. Gujarati and Punjabi ABD girls have a slighty darker complexion than their counterparts in India (city dwellers).
This is just an observation.
Its just the clean crisp air of the cities back home. Just kidding !!!
brown_fob, The reason you have noticed what you have noticed is that ABD desi girls are more likely to be wearing makeup and in the US women can get makeup that matches their skin. In India makeup used to be a layer of white talcum powder. Even those who wear modern makeup in India tend to chose a much lighter shade than their own skin tone, due to obvious reasons. So these could be the contributing factor.
The reason you have noticed what you have noticed is that ABD desi girls are more likely to be wearing makeup and in the US women can get makeup that matches their skin. In India makeup used to be a layer of white talcum powder. Even those who wear modern makeup in India tend to chose a much lighter shade than their own skin tone, due to obvious reasons. So these could be the contributing factor.
It is even much simpler. Your baseline observation. In white-dominated country, every brown looks darker. In brown-dominated country, even slighter lighter shades are noticed by you and others. You eye, and brain resets to the majority hue.
People are BSing like nobodies business, I do not know any darker-skinned women in India who did not get married in India due to complexion [I spend and have spent a lot of time in India]. Sure, there is a mark down that is made up by being hot, dowry, charming personality, etc. It is like anything in life, there is a pecking order that changes from time to time. Tell me a society that does not have a pecking order.
People who are going ga-ga about color neutral west is. Three words: 1) miscenegation laws till 70s, 2) One drop rule (or brown bag test), and last but least 3) Opening lines of Snow White story. I have two degrees from Amreeka, and I am not kidding the stuff I have heard about skin-color obsession from the majority during luch hour gossip and parties (obviously behind your back).
So guys, enjoy and chill. I’ll just call Bipasha Basu, sweet talk her, and tell her about the comments here @ SM.
I couldn’t deal with most of what this thread ended up being but I think this one tops it all. Just when you think you’ve heard it all brown_fob what the? This has got to be the most ridiculous notion EVER!!
As for people asking why someone hasn’t gotten fair after living in the US there is some truth to the matter. Skin naturally improves in the west, better air/water, better range of products available, foods whatever it is. You see the difference in Indians in the first year they come to the US, especially adolescents. Their skin improves if they were prone to acne and their face brightenes. No it doesn’t get lighter but I’ve seen this with so many people including me when I first moved here.
KT you da man!! Tell it like it is.
BTW one of my good friend’s mother was on the phone with someone from India. They were looking for a bride for my friend’s brother. She was standing in her own daughters house with her son in law a few feet away and I swear to god this is exactly what she said (in gujarati) “I want someone extremely fair and tall and preferably light eyed. I don’t want someone dark like Sarika (my friend name changed) I want a pretty girl for my son.”
I swear I couldn’t even make up that creativity if I tried and wouldn’t have believed half of it if I hadn’t heard it myself. Apparently later there was a big row and the son in law then asked the dear mother in law that had insulted her own daughter in front of her husband to kindly take her hiney back to her house.
Read White Mughal, there is a passage in early part of the book, where a very high British official of East India Company wrote a letter to Warren Hastings. It goes something like that:
He decides his fairer skinned Anglo-Indian children to immigrate to England, and one of them is darker skinned that will stay in India. You know what that meant……….a life of lowly clerk or train driver.
You can see, how much I am in love with the mighty West (or enlightened desis living in West) that will free us of all prejudices.
I believe your conversation, JOAT but I can heard similar thing from mothers of other ethnicity too.
🙂