One upside of my relentless biz travel is airplane time to catch up on reading. Coming back from Hong Kong, I started digging into Niall Ferguson’s controversial Empire – a work previously covered on SM here. I personally find the book fascinating, well written, thoroughly researched and, dare I say, a balanced portrait of the whys, hows, and modern effects of British colonialism – warts, accomplishments, and all.
But, rather than dive into yet another post-colonial-legacy debate, I thought mutineers might be interested in one specific internal difference between the Brits in India vs. elsewhere in the empire – they had a much higher tendency to “go native” –
Until the first decades of the nineteenth century, the British in India had not the slightest notion of trying to Anglicize India and certainly not to Christianize it. On the contrary, it was the British themselves who often took pleasure in being orientalized. [Empire, pg 133]
Later chapters explore how this Prime Directive of sorts would change dramatically – in part leading to and following the Sepoy Mutiny. But, in the mean time, what explains the “orientalized” Brits? Ferguson identifies one culprit – the irresistible allure of our desi sista’s. Many a Brit discovered, apparently, that once you go brown, you stop foolin’ around–
In one of his Home Letters Written from India (mainly dating from the 1830s) Samuel Snead Brown observed that ‘those who have lived with a native woman for any length of time never marry a European… so amusingly playful, so anxious to oblige and please [are they], that a person after being accustomed to their society shrinks from the idea of encountering the whims or yielding to the fancies of an English-woman’ [Empire, pg 134]
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Ghee and Rice didn’t miss her… |
Ahhh the good ole days before that silly suffrage, equality, and womens rights nonsense. When women, like the children they were to care for, were seen but not heard and if they really had something to say, it was pleasant and never shrill. 
(Alas, many an ABCD gal suspect similar motives when a modern brutha heads back to the homeland to get married.)
One [married] Captain Robert Smith made similar remarks in his travelogue but in a more over-the-top way –
The mild expression, so characteristic of this race, the beauty and regularity of the features and the symmetrical form of the head are striking and convey a high idea of the intellectuality of the Asiatic race… This classical elegance of form is not confined to the head alone, the bust is often of the finest proportions of ancient statuary and when seen through the thin veil of flowing muslin as the graceful Hindu female ascends from her morning ablution in the Ganges is a subject well worth the labor of the poet or artist. [pg 134]
Leaving aside the arguably patronizing tone, I couldn’t help but chuckle at what comes next after Smith’s Aphroditian image. While positively ebullient about most physical charms of the desi maiden, Capt Smith saw fit to plant one caveat –
…he felt the typical Indian woman’s lower half was ‘badly formed and ill calculated to harmonize with so beautiful a superstructure.’ He had clearly given the matter a good deal of thought. [pg 134]
Heh… So apparently desi gals were unable to don the stretch pants and miniskirts so fashionable in, uh, Victorian England. Luckily, Capt Smith was there to post warning to the unknowing men back home. As for me personally, Capt Smith can criticize, but I like my women like Flo-Jo.
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p>UPDATE: Normally, as a rule, I try not to post updates to my posts or, for that matter, engage too deeply in the comment threads. As any blogger / commenter with a fulltime “real life” knows, this sport is addictive and the time drain can be enormous. We try to be a little engaged and occasionally, SM Intern will engage to nuke comments that personally attack folks and, if it continues, we ban the commenter altogether….
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p>BUT, scanning the comments (natch, the FURY) generated this time around, I figured I oughta chime in.
Y’all realize that this post is tongue in cheek, right?
Well, at least Manju does. But other folks seem to be taking my quotes of “Sam Snead” and “Captain Smith” as *my approval* of their positions when the whole point was the opposite! I hoped my sarcastic commentary in between their, uh, not-quite-scientific observations was apparent (dissing Women’s Suffrage? Joining Snead in praising women who are “seen but not heard”? “Stretch pants and miniskirts” as essential elements of Victorian fashion? Smith’s “over-the-top”-ness? Heck, I even tried to subtly work in Sir Mixalot – an “authority” who’d rather colorfully disagree with Capt Smith, et. al. about nice “lower halves” and join me in approval of Madhuri Dixit’s “Flo-Jo”-ness)…. (by the way, just now, I was being sarcastic about Mixalot being an authority )
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p>Perhaps my sarcastic tongue could use some practice. Or perhaps you’re just not allowed to quote, in polite company, any sort of colonial and/or female body subject matter without plainly and vociferously denouncing it (Male body parts are a diff matter, of course). If so, that’s unfortunate… it’s just so…. plain.
Still, I offer humble apologies and a convivial drink at the next meetup for those who walked away offended. And now, we return to our regularly scheduled lives…
In ancient Rome, I believe, women of above average corpulence were cosidered more beautiful. As were men of below average endowment. Vinod, don’t let us change the topic 🙂
the paucity of afore mentioned desi gals in miniskirts where i live makes desi legs in stilletos a sight for sore eyes… they seem to be not as cellulite laden… in my humble opinion the puerto ricanas have it all!
wow, that’s not racist at all!
Oh man, I found this book about Robert Clive in a used bookstore here in Chicago called “The Rape of India”. It is basically a history of Clive and the colonization of India as though it were told by that “know what I mean?” guy from Monty Python. I have no idea how accurate any of it is, but the whole book is told in a manner barely more “literary” than pornography. It is fucking hilarious.
oh. my. god. becky. just look at her butt!
This bit, I think it was about advanced bathing techniques in Desh really.
wow, that’s not racist at all! Niall Ferguson racist? Oh no! Such a fine gentleman with all these wonderful ideas. Check out his actual proposals on what to do in Iraq in this article entitled Cowboys and Indians” :
Rather, it is time to acknowledge just how thinly stretched American forces in Iraq are and to address the problem: whether by finding new allies (send Condoleezza Rice to New Delhi?); Borderline racist. radically expanding the accelerated citizenship program for immigrants who join the army; Borderline racist. or lowering the (historically high) educational requirements demanded by military recruiters. Borderline racist.
William Dalrymple did a pretty thorough job on the late 18thC. to early 19th C. change of Prime Directive in White Mughals.
greek prostitutions would pad their asses.
I assumed the “wow it’s not racist” was directed at the colonial commentary and the PR comment (#2)
Well, she’s just sticking hers out in a “playful” way.
For a second there, I really wanted to move to Chicago.. because it had funky-sounding bookstores like “The Rape of India”.. until I read that line again.
Aakashwaani: Amazon Ships. Stay in Iowa.
Vinod, I understand that some of the posts here are done for fun. But you do have some intellectual inclinations. So in the interest of pure debate, I would like to point you to “Amartya Sen, ‘The Argumentative Indian'”. I believe this to be a truly balanced book about the way West(britain among other carpetbaggers) has plundered(a lot) and enriched( mainly in the interest of looting further) the Indian subcontinent. I know this is probably a semi knee jerk reaction, But when some one talks about colonialism being good for anyone, I would have to say People need it like a hole in their head ! -Raj
Well he is right about the lower half. Desi legs are fugly. Ditto for african legs.
East Asian gals consistently have the cutest legs. Followed by europeans.
Methinks thats why the euro colonials adopted leg revealing attire: skirts for women, short pants for men etc. To taunt the natives with their superior calves. 🙂
I assumed the “wow it’s not racist” was directed at the colonial commentary and the PR comment (#2) Don’t you mean Vinod’s colonial commentary? I specifically want to avoid upsetting people on this blog, so I chose instead to say obliquely that the references may sound somewhat racist to some people.
Let me call into question two assumptions in the post : first, what was Captain Smith’s research methodology? To what extent do his “findings” have bearing on the proportions of Indian women today as opposed to, say, cultural “assumptions” about Indian women in the 19th century? To be sure, Niall Ferguson is likely using the Smith reference to reflect the 19th century British perception of Indian women. These may well be the right quotations to use in that context, but I would not use these quotations in today’s context because, as I mentioned in comment #1, different cultures view beauty differently (and it has nothing to do with race itself). For instance, in the Indian context, as Amrita points out, Madhuri’s pose may be viewed quite differently than it would in the American context. I could question what possible measurements Captain Smith may have undertaken to arrive at his conclusions, but I wouldn’t bother to because he probably didn’t have a serious enough methodology to even deserve much analysis. You couldn’t say that so easily about the, ummm…, other survey.
Second, I would ask if it is fair to question the motivations of an Indian-American if he chooses to marry a girl from India (in the context of the quote ‘so amusingly playful, so anxious to oblige and please [are they]’). From what I have seen, dudes choose to marry educated, highly educated ones at that, Indian girls. Perhaps, we should base the discussion on Enlightenment values, as opposed to values specific to specific cultures (such as greater or less independence and greater or lesser family values), such as the American or the Indian. I would argue that educated Indian girls are just as much a product of Englightment values as American ones. It seems to me that the opinions of Brown are about Indian girls from the 19th century, and not about those that have been through a board of education 😉
This is the most subversive post in the entire history of sepia mutiny. Vinod is a very very clever lad indeed.
You and I clearly live on different planets.
Heh, it’s wild to know that folks 150 yrs ago wondered the same thing… it’s truly rare to see a desi gal who can rock a miniskirt 😉
(and, FWIW, before I get my ass handed to me here, lemme just say that desi men – for whatever reason – almost always have a “pre-uncle” belly — desi gals way ‘outperform’ dudes here)
You and I clearly live on different planets.
ennis bro, i’m with you. east asian women have the ‘fat calf’ problem which results in a lot of surgery in japan. african americans (if they aren’t obese) often have elegantly shaply legs. the african american male physique when optimized can be appollonian in its classical perfection.
cite: Dr. Suh In Seock, a surgeon in Seoul, has struggled to find the best way to fix an affliction the Koreans call muu-dari and the Japanese call daikon-ashi: radish-shaped calves.
we gotz a radish lover in the house!
In response to #10 an observation or for that matter a preference does not imply the prejudice or discrimination entailed in racism… i’m an equal opportunity friend 🙂
I strongly disagree. I think desi “gals” look great in miniskirts … in fact, I think they should wear them more often. With tall, high-heeled boots.
😉
I strongly disagree. I think desi “gals” look great in miniskirts … in fact, I think they should wear them more often. With tall, high-heeled boots. I haven’t seen a whole lot of ’em in mini-skirts, but I gotta agree with that. As regards Madhuri Dixit and so forth, it ain’t so much that the Ghee and rice don’t miss Ms. Dixit as much as the fact that she wants that look. The gal is totally in control, not the other way round.
What does chet snicker have to say about this topic?
Indians have longer legs and shorter bodies. And if they are like me, they have long long legs. Oh yes they are thin chicken legs for sure. But at 40, when everyone else is worried about thunder thighs, my chicken legs remain, well, slim. Slim and shapely and long. What more can a girl ask for.
Once I went brown I definitely stuck around, but as they say when I’m out on the corner hustlin’ and flowin’…Game recognizes game. Beauty is beauty on any continent whether one prefers pale alebaster skin or a nice dark moca hue. Perhaps the hint of something different, something foreign and slightly exotic is appealing when occupying a foreign land. You get tired of tea and crumpets and want some dhosa and lassi for breakfast.
Although I did confirm something for my brother after he recently bedded a desi girl…and ladies I mean this with all due respect so please don’t get offended. I assured him that despite her small but curvy frame, they were probably most definitely real and spectacular.
Holla back!
the chinee women are of shapeley foot and legge, but the hindoo woman is of a fine physique of childbearing. the negress is not a beauty but a sexual beast, nonetheless the female and the male negro are of robust health. for sexuel relations it is best to pursue the chinee.
am i right fellas? i mean am i right? come on guys!
am i right fellas? i mean am i right? come on guys! Ouch.
Enjoyed the post, Vinod! Glad to know that despite the shortcomings, you’re still a fan.
“You get tired of tea and crumpets and want some dhosa and lassi for breakfast.”
Kind of ironic when you think of where they got the tea from in the first place.
The comments on this site are in general headed in the direction of discourse more suited for junior high. Obsessive commenting about the color, looks, asses, breasts etc. etc. of desi females is getting a little tiresome.
I think we desi mens are zimbly trying to make up for our small…confidence.
test
once you go round and brown, you never turn it down.
At the risk of being off-topic, let me just say that I met Niall Ferguson at a conference last monday. He looks very young, even though he must be in his forties. and oh, such airs! even snobs would call him a snob. Heavy oxbridge accent, takes himself way too seriously. Talking to him, you realize where the old stereotype about stuffy Brits comes from.
And talking about women, one of the first slides in his presentation at the conference talked about various commodities pre-1500 AD – Gold, Iron, etc… and fertile women!
🙂 I think you should qualify that as desi-women got back. I dont think there can ever be a conclusive study to state that our women are low on endowment factor. Our gods are good to us, so we should always be smiling.
This comment is weird. A) most desi guys don’t think of desi women as “something foreign and exotic” B) we generally don’t think about “occupying foreign lands as a means to have sex with desi women, and C) contrary to popular belief I don’t think either the BBC or your limited experience can vouch for the sexual characteristics of desi people.
Unless this was just a wild joke. Were you being tongue in cheek?
not to say desi men are not bastards. clearly they are.
Actually, I think the legs factor might also depend on the location. Not too many desis from the desh (even the 1.5 gen) have amazing legs, but OTOH, there seem to be a higher percentage of nice legs among abd’s. Usually the rule, at least in my campus, – long legs and smaller torsos especially if one’s ancestry is from the north.
Vinod & Amrita,
If you are interested in reading some further analysis of the matter, we recently had an extensive discussion on this very same topic on the British “Pickled Politics” blog here.
Anyone who thinks that Desi women are quiet or retiring should meet the women of my family – on both continents. We referred to my great-grandmother as “the martinet” for her short stature and commanding presence, and her eldest daughter as “the major-general.” To say that these women were commanding is mild. Aunty Clytie died ten years ago and I’m still scared of her.
There is a possibility, though, that in my anglicised MangaloreBombayPoone family, women adopted some British behavioural characteristics. I’ve met many Indian women who are shy and retiring in public, but in the family home, are lionesses in charge of the manor. I’m not sure the stereotype of quiet women holds. . . at least not for Southies.
From what I have read (Jai, correct me if I’m wrong), the tendency to ‘go native’ was arrested when large numbees of British women started arriving in India during the later stages of the Raj. These women, from Victorian England, put a stop to casual socialising and mixing between desis and brits, and enforced rigid social segregation. Anyway, in my view (and I won’t apologise for this even if I get a lot of flak) women are far bigger snobs than men ON AVERAGE…especially women from upper socioeconomic classes in India. This is based on observation, and not because I ever found myself on the receiving end of said snobbery. I wonder if this is a relic of attitudes learned from British women during the Raj, or is it a reflection of something older and deeper within Indian society?
I have to agree with #41 on this: I’ve got some terrifying aunts myself (from the south — Tamil Nadu, Kerala — I mean, good god, the demure-and-retiring desi girl stereotype SO does not fit Kerala women! It’s a matriarchal society, people, and it shows!). And this isn’t a criticism of said women at all — I think they rock, and I try to emulate them in many ways. They speak their minds and they get things done, so more power to them.
And #42: you’re not going to get flak from me for that observation 🙂 . I don’t know if it’s for cultural or historical or hormonal reasons that upper-caste women are generally far bigger snobs than their husbands. But I’ve noticed it myself, again without being the object of the snobbery — and because of it I’m more comfortable in the company of the men than the women, which is difficult when you’re a woman yourself and often expected to hang out with the women and do what they’re doing. I’m curious to hear if anyone who agrees might have any theories on why this is so.
Speak for your self buddy !!!!
Sahej
A few points of clarification. I’m white, my wife is desi (ABD Telugu), and my daughter well she’s adorable.
I was simply trying to throw out one possible explanation for the British fascination while they were occupying India. Also I want attempting to support my theory that women in all colors from all parts of the world can be smoking hot. One simply has to find them.
I never gave a second thought about my wife being Indian when I initially asked her out. I simply thought she was cool girl with a nice body. The whole skin-religion-what-will-the-kids-look-like dicussions did not come until 3 2 years later. Things just clicked, we got along, dated for two years before telling her parents, yada yada we’re married with a kid.
Sahej
The third part was intended as a joke and reference to a Seinfeld episode. With regards to personal experience, I am indeed somewhat limited with only an N = 2.
It’s not just colonial men-desi women. My great-great-great grandfather had two wives in colonial India, and one of them was white. It caused a scandal in his Hindu family, but now all parties are quite friendly with each other, the whiteness having washed out, more or less, a generation or two ago. The “real” family was reportedly quite nasty to the “white” family, but he stood up for his half-breed children.
ditto for Marathi women… uh… Westies? That’s right, I disown the North.
Not a big deal Asha’s dad. Without the clarification it just seems a little strange. Its all good man, sorry if I rankled you!
That’s very interesting, is your family from an aristocratic/feudal background ? I ask because I know there was some interaction between English women & Indian men at that level of society. My interpretation of this is somewhat different from yours though, I think the nastiness has more to do with perceived illegitimacy than racism. It would have been the same situation if this patriarch had a second family with a Hindu of a different caste.