Prashant points us at yet another interesting, Desi economic history piece by Gautam Bastian. In it, Gautam quotes a provocative Telegraph OpEd that discusses a surprising diversity in the Desi Intellegentsia’s attitudes towards the market. Instead of the uniform, Pavlovian rejection Uncle Milt experienced, the Telegraph’s Ramachandra Guha points at a specific braindrain of Guju econ knowledge –
Back in the Sixties, it used to be said that India’s most successful export were economists. Our economy was resolutely insulated from the rest of the world, but our economists occupied high posts in famous universities in Europe and America. Later, the joke was amended to say that the reason India’s economy was mediocre was because its economists were world-class. No South Korean was a professor of political economy at Cambridge; no Malaysian had been awarded the Nobel Prize. But their economies grew at an impressive 8 per cent, whereas ours stayed stuck at 3.5 per cent, also known as the “Hindu” rate of growth.My own theory about Indian economists is more specific and hopefully less facetious. It runs as follows; Gujarati economists place faith in the market, while Bengali economists are prone to trust the state. In the Fifties, when P.C. Mahalonobis drafted the Soviet-inspired second five year plan, A.D. Shroff responded by starting the Forum of Free Enterprise. In the Sixties and the Seventies, about the only economist of pedigree advocating Indian integration with the world economy was the Gujarati, Jagdish Bhagwati. He was opposed by an array of Marxists, many of whom (naturally) were Bengali.
As Gautam notes, several prominent thinkers have attacked the the broad question of “if intellectuals are so smart, how come so many have been so wrong about markets?” (Heck, little old me, in my blogging youth tried to add on to Nozick). But by slicing and dicing across socio-cultural lines within India, Guha takes the question in a different direction. While I’d heard the stereotype of Bengali Marxists (keep in mind that my homestate – Kerala – has its fair share as well) I wasn’t aware that Guju’s were responsible for the counter pole. Biz friendly Gujus, eh? I suppose many stereotypes start with a grain of truth somewhere….
Never trust Wikipedia as your only source of information. If that was true Gujarat would have a per capita income of around $1500 a year, which is FAR from reality. In 2004-5 Gujarat had a per capita income of Rs 28,355 which is around $630 a year. By contrast Punjab had a per capita income of Rs 30,701. With a population around 5% of the Indian total Gujarat contributed around 7% to the total GDP. Official Gujarat government source:
http://financedepartment.gujarat.gov.in/pdf/frbmbook_eng.pdf
If gujjus are such great capitalists why is Gujarat so poor? $600-700 a year in per capita income is poor even by third world standards.
I didn’t say that it was exclusive to Gujurat… The economic impact of caste based discrimination is often underestimated. If 20-30% of the population (or more) is unable to exercise their full productivity/potential, mean measures of the economy is definitely going to get pulled down. It would be interesting to see some statistics on the GDP/capita of the advantaged castes, though I doubt it its possible to measure.
truthseeker,
Excellent question. Firstly, the successive governments in Gujarat were anything but business friendly. Secondly, Mumbai (Bombay) was the center of commerce for decades. Any self-respecting nephew/cousin would land up at his established relative’s place in Borivli, Vile Parle or Napean Sea road (you take your pick). He would work as an apprentice in the shop/mill/brokerage/company and then move his way up. That explains why a large percentage of business -from small to mega – are controlled by Gujaratis in Mumbai.
A similar trend is visible in the US. I’ve observed Patels operate in a particular state in the US (they used to sponsor the cricket club my fellow MS students and I played in). They follow the same pattern. Here’s a typical story – A cousin/nephew etc gets pushed out by his parents (dikra jao ni!), comes to Oklahoma City, Baton Rouge, Boise, Birmingham and other non-glamorous places. He is alloted a small shady motel, the sort that plays dirty movies over cable tv and rents rooms by the hour. Him and his wife plus two Mexican illegals comprise the staff. They have troubles with cops, drug dealers, INS etc. But they stick it out. And here’s the amazing thing. The relative who sets him up pays him only for expenses. He deposits the “salary” in a trust (could be a bank account), in order to teach him to be frugal and responsible. When sufficient money has been saved, he gives him that lump sum and helps him with an additional loan to set up a bigger franchise – could be a Ramada, a Days Inn, series of Dry Cleaning shops etc. The next relative who comes on board gets to run the shady motel. Within some years, the guy who got upgraded to a Days Inn is wealthy enough to repeat this cycle with his or his wife’s relatives.
It is quite amazing to see the transition. I’ve seen them in all shades – the crude rustic from a village who runs the shady motel (he could also be a displaced East African Patel too, who came via Panama), the rough cut diamond who runs Days Inn, the street-smart urbane Holiday Inn dude and the suave senior patriarch who now runs a chain in many cities, votes Republican, goes to Kiwanis and sponsors India Independence Day celebrations while playing host to a Bollywood star. Absolute hard work, a flexible attitude towards rules/ethics (not all of them), total clan loyalty, a joint family-like system with help given to extended relations, and an ability to work doggone hard and not care about “what people think” makes them highly successful.
A fellow Kannadiga on the other hand would go; “What shady motel??? Who do you think I am. I’ve got Status saar. I’ll have my filter kaafi by two, thank you.”
“If gujjus are such great capitalists why is Gujarat so poor? $600-700 a year in per capita income is poor even by third world standards.”
One cannot simply look at the absolute income numbers to determine the Capitalist quotient of the Gujarati people.I grew up for the first 18 years in Gujarat in a upper middle class family. I moved to US recently and living in moderately large city in the heartland in a household with a income of about 70K. Let me tell you that I have hardly experienced any change in my lifestyle or comfort. Coming from such a background,it surprised me that that living in Gujarat and in the US so similar than is normally portrayed or assumed. i guess what i am trying to say is that compared to other states, the middle class, as a percentage of population, is huge.
Talking of Being market friendly, let this be an indicator of the “capitalistness” of the Gujarati people. “Gujarati-promoted companies account for around 24.83% of the total private market capital (in BSE), if one also includes the Gujarati-speaking Parsis who contribute around 7.66% to the figure. Marwaris promoted companies take 10.97% of the market cap.“
The number of Gujarati PSUs listed on the markets outnumbers any state.
Another point to be made here is that compared to other states, Gujarat is highly urbanized (34%). Four main cities of Gujarat: Ahmedabad, Baroda, Surat, Rajkot have population over a million. Urbanization being a sign of a more developed economy is ECON101.
Heck, even the barbershop talk on a lazy a Sunday morning is regularly on the markets.
Another indicator: “Gujarat Samachar”, which is the leading daily, in every edition devotes at least 6-8 pages (not including pages of stock market, mutual fund and commodities price tables) and on market and business news (which are way more insightful and indepth than TOI and Express).
The talk between relatives and friends of the family is very often on which uncle made a killing in recent boom and kone taal padi gayi (who went bust).
The local economies of even samll towns like Bhavnagar jump up when stock market is high ans vice versa.
These are just some indicators.
LOL. My favorite quote from A Suitable Boy was when Seth describes Bengali workers’ ambitions as “we want employment, not work”
“Often, therefore, one will find – in communities (espicially hierarchical ones) where the knowledgable greybeard/egghead is given unconditional respect – that the greybeard/egghead’s social peers actually bow to the arcana that he spouts and is supposedly the master of. (Does this remind you of someone with tenure :-))
That is how intellectual tyranny is born. And that is why I’m not at all surprised that India’s intellectual bullies have come from societies where “respect given to one based on one’s knowledge”. “
You know that works both ways…Bengalis tend to have way more sophisticated tastes. If you go to an Hindustani classical music concert, you’ll always see a large contingent of Bengalis, go to the latest bollywood dhamaka, and a large contingent will be Gujju. Go to a Gujju wedding- its a like tacky bollywood number gone wrong (I used to wonder who actually bought the spangled lenghas and saris on Hilcroft until I went to one). Go to a bengali one, the crowds are dressed in a much more sophisticated manner. Bengalis also are much more into the classical and modern arts as well as literary appreciation. Even just from visiting friends’ houses, you see such an extreme difference in taste-even with really well-off Gujju families. The aesthetic sense just isn’t there. It’s kinda like the prime example of how money can’t buy good taste.
Although, on the whole, I gotta say I admire the community cohesiveness that Gujjus have-and although I’m not a big fan of some of their religious practices, their devotion to their faiths, whether its Hinduism, Jainism, or whatever else, is pretty impressive. And of course, you can’t help but be impressed
In Houston, the ONLY hindu temple that had a murthi for Goddess Saraswati was the Bengali Durga Bari Society…and from what I’ve observed, the South and Bengal are the two main areas of the country that actually celebrate Saraswati Puja in a significant way…maybe that has something to do with respect for intellectual and scholarly debate evolved in those regions.
Actually, in those parts of the country-on Diwali day, traditionally Lakshmi was not the main deity worshipped (this changed in the last century though in south india) Kali Puja was celebrated in Bengal, and in most parts of Andhra and Tamil Nadu, a vratam for Goddess Parvati was usually held-this has almost died out though. There was no equivalent day for Dhanteras. Clearly there was some sort of mercantile reverence in the northwest that was not as strong in the South or in the East, perhaps even well before colonial times.
“It’s kinda like the prime example of how money can’t buy good taste.” That depends on whether the intention of accumulation money is to but a “good taste” or not.;-) I mean, who is to decide what constitutes “good taste”?
There is a choice. Either i be a khaki wearing, Trotsky touting commie indulging myself in useless arguments or i be a capitalist devoting better time of my productive life for financial and thereby the social, educational upliftment of my family and society. Choices were made and results are for all to see.
But one can look at the absolute income numbers to determine what the “Capitalist quotient of the Gujarati people” has accomplished.
You all seem to think that anecdotal evidence trumps the statistics on income. Thats just irrational.
If the Gujarati middle class is so huge, and Gujarat is more urban than other states, and gujjus are such great entrepeneurs, then where are the numbers to back these claims up? Gujarat has a per capita income of less than $700 a year. The UN describes the poverty level as less than $2 a day. By that standard the average income of gujaratis, like that of all indians, falls below the global poverty line.
“It’s kinda like the prime example of how money can’t buy good taste.” That depends on whether the intention of accumulation money is to but a “good taste” or not.;-) I mean, who is to decide what constitutes “good taste”?
Society, the AIA, interior designers, fashion designers, the general public, artists, critics etc…take your pick.
There is a choice. Either i be a khaki wearing, Trotsky touting commie indulging myself in useless arguments or i be a capitalist devoting better time of my productive life for financial and thereby
I was referring to the impact of respecting education and knowledge within a society-and how you can see the influences in the aesthetic cultural choices people make. I really don’t think its just a big coincidence.
And you can cut the crap about the altruism of Gujjus making their money-please don’t deny that making as much money as possible is also THE status symbol.
I’ll never forget trying to explain to this Gujju uncle that I wanted to go into foreign policy/think tank world/academia etc. and he was just so shocked that I could even contemplate taking a government job that it wasn’t even worth trying explaining why I’d make a choice like that instead of focusing all my energy on accumulating as much money as possible. I love capitalism, believe me I do (I don’t think its without its flaws either, though). However, I will never understand putting money money money as the end all and be all of your life and the sole measure of success.
Are you then a big fan of the highly sophisticated and intellectual bengali religious practice of sacrificing goats to Kali?
“Truth”seeker . . . after 50 years of socialist rule, the entire country was a mess. It’s better ot measure by recent growth, in which Gujurat has been the best and is the most highly developed. The same you can’t say that China is not doing so well based on statistics without regarding time and space. At the moment it is poor, but in the last ten years it has more than double per capita income.
And furthermore, although you kep ignoring when someone explains something to you, Gujuratis don’t always stay in Gujurat. Ever heard of Bombay? Most Guju owned businsses are still there. If all those businesses uprooted and settled into Surat, you’d see a much higher income level.
Unless I missed it, I didn’t read any reference to the adverse effects of British colonialism on Bengal and most of its contiguous states. Kolkata was the original seat of the British empire, and the British were more interested in developing a huge cadre of loyal minions rather than indigenous entrepreneurship that would have ultimately weakened their hold. In Bengal, Bihar, Orissa and Uttar Pradesh, the core of the British Empire in India, the dominant culture was of education followed by “naukri.”
The business orientation of the Gujaratis, on the other hand, may have similar historical explanations – a coastal state facing towards more commercialized west, much commercial interaction with various parts of the world, perhaps far less influenced by the colonizers from the Mughals to the British, hence less inclined to serve other masters.
108 “However, I will never understand putting money money money as the end all and be all of your life and the sole measure of success.”
Obviously success in life can never be measured by money. But success in business always is. If one chooses business as one’s profession, just as you would choose foreign policy as yours, then one’s PROFESSIONAL success should be measured by the wealth accumulated and a few other metrics.
There should be a distinction made between personal and professional achievement, and business should be appropriately categorized as a profession with money as its rightful goal. Within the confines of a certain professional/business context, the drive for “money, money, money” is nothing to apologize for. Neither does it have to detract from the pursuit of the altruistic and intellectual.
Please do not confuse this with Gordon Gekko’s “Greed is good” line in the movie, Wall Street. There is a big difference between greed and ambition.
It is a mistake to call the license raj “socialist”. Call it a corrupt nexus between the brahmin babus and the baniya industrialists (many if not most of whom were gujjus). Even after 15 years of liberalization the per capita income of Gujarat is still at subsaharan african levels.
There are 50 million gujuratis in Gujarat. How many are there in Mumbai and abroad?
about the $600 – $700 income discussion .. does anyone notice the fact that there has been a steady flow of “immigrants” from UP, Bihar & MP over the years looking for employment .. right from low income laborers to IAS officers … and i don’t know where does the neglect-of-education-for-money part comes from .. sure it existed until recently .. but that’s on a decline nowadays .. this is frm a guy who has atlest 5 Ph.D’s, 2 Masters, and some more doctors n engineers in the immediate family ..
Truthseeker,
Here’s the PPP ranking of couuntries where India is ranked at #122 with $3320 PPP GDP per capita. If we combine that with the quote in my earlier comment that Gujarat’s per capita GDP within India is 2.47 times the national average, Gujarat’s per capita PPP GDP will work out to $8200. This ranks it solidly within the middle income countries at a rank of around 70, somewhere between Brazil and Iran.
2.This entire thread has been about how India got destroyed by Marxist moronic statists since independence and continues to be so. Gujarat did not live under a vacuum, it was unfortunately strangled by the same license-quota-permit raj like everyone else in India. Hence the lack of a stellar GDP in absolute terms, just as is the case for the rest of the country.
3.Therefore, it is meaningless to seek connection between Gujaratis’ entrepreneurialism and lack of correspondingly higher GDP. It is based on the false assumption that entreprenurialism was a key driver of GDP growth. If anything, Gujarat’s entrepreneurialism worked inspite of all the hurdles put up by a powerful central government.
This is why the most logically relevant comparison is how Gujarat fared relative to other Indian states because they were all subject to the same oppressive statist policies. Only then can you see that business-friendly attitude is a significant differentiator for Gujarat which, all else being equal, became the third most prosperous state in India. The only two states ahead of India are Punjab and Maharashtra, and even then, realistically, Maharashtra is just riding on the corporate headquarters in Mumbai as well as the Gujju owned businesses in that state. For example, Mumbai-based Gujarati owned Reliance alone accounts for about 2-3% of India’s GDP now and not only did Reliance get founded in Gujarat, but it also has major operations in that state, including what will become one of world’s largest integrated petroleum complexes in Jamnagar. Within the Indian economy, you’ll find Gujjus making disproportionately high contribution to wealth creation.
Varahmihir #104:
What you described is exactly the logic behind using PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) to compare countries in international economics. A simplified application of this concept is the Big Mac Index created by the Economist.
If a Gujju had million bucks in the bank, you will probab;y never know. If a Punjabi/Sindhi had $100K in the bank, they will potray themselves so you think they had a million bucks in the bank., What about the Bengali ?
Complete BS. I already proved that is a lie. Who do you trust more, Wikipedia or the data from the Government of Gujarat? Official Gujarat government source:
http://financedepartment.gujarat.gov.in/pdf/frbmbook_eng.pdf
In 2004-5 Gujarat had a per capita income of Rs 28,355 which is around $630 a year. Do you really think that’s 2.47 times the national average?
If it worked where are the results? A per capita income thats below the global poverty rate isnt something to be crowing about, is it?
Arre bhai, did you even bother to read what I said? It’s not about Wikipedia, dude – understand the concept of PPP and apply it. That’s why I went through it in my argument. And, BTW, Wiki quotes the CMIE for its numbers, which is the most respected data source for Indian econommy, even more so than the official government stats.
Let me explain this one last time using your source. You are still using the nominal forex conversion rate to take Rs 28,335 per capita GDP to come up with its dollar equivalent, which is utterly wrong. You are using the dollar to rupee conversion rate of Rs 28,335/630 = Rs 45 to a dollar. That is WRONG. The PPP conversion rate is more like Rs 4 or 5 to a US$ (don’t have time to source it, you can google it yourself or proxy it through the ratio of PPP GDP vs. nominal GDP – say about $3200/$700 = 4.6). Your figure of Rs 28,335 per capita GDP, then that works out to be equivalent to about $6300, which still ranks Gujarat among the middle income countries in the PPP GDP rank that I linked to in my earlier post.
In terms of results, how about the fact that just the three Gujarati owned businesses – Tata, Reliance and Wipro – account for more than 5% of India’s entire GDP? If you throw in the Gujjus’ total control of India’s diamond trade, then just those four will account for almost 10% of India’s GDP which is higher than the fraction of the Gujju populaiton of India. Again, your argument is based on the false premise that the entire result of Gujaratis’ entrepreneurship must be reflected into the the GDP of the state of Gujarat alone and nowhere else! That’s ridiculous – kyon bhai, the Palanpuris that own the diamond trade or Azim Premji or the Tatas or Reliance don’t count for anything if their operations do not directly contribute to the GDP of Gujarat?
You have no idea what you are talking about. Rs 28,335 per capita is only slightly higher than the average per capita of India. The PPP per capita of India is around $3500, which means that Gujarat’s PPP per capita cannot possibly be $6300 as you absurdly insist (you claimed it was $8200 just minutes ago!). You are clearly very confused.
Where do the overwhelming majority of gujaratis live if not in Gujarat? Is succesful entrepreneurship limited only to the Ambanis and a few other gujjus outside Gujarat, or are all gujjus entrepeneurs? If it is the latter as is being claimed, where are the results? Rs 28,335 or $630 (nominal) or ~$4000 (PPP) are all well below the global average.
For you to claim that Gujarat is 2.47 times wealthier than the Indian average and at the level of Iran is seriously delusional. Have you ever been to Iran? Iran has nowhere near the rate of abject poverty and hunger that is found in Gujarat, just as it is in the rest of India:
http://www.unicef.org.uk/fundraising/resources/unicef_interfaith_action_jains.pdf
“Are you then a big fan of the highly sophisticated and intellectual bengali religious practice of sacrificing goats to Kali?”
More so than forcing women to sit behind you with a big fat rope in the middle, letting all them men sit up front and have darshan…
More so than making every female deity subservient to the male ones.
More so than oddly going to Krishna temples every sunday eating free food and simply never being able to contemplate that a disdain for philosophy and knowledge go against the very religion I profess to belong to…
Truthseeker,
India’s ruinous economic order since Independence is a socialist one. Any amount of mudslinging isn’t going to change that.
Thanx to someone for quoting the great Dr.BR Shenoy. Ram Guha as usual in his superficial (quickies anyone?) forgets to mention the other great economist who walked out of Nehru’s khichdii cabinet – Sir John Mathai. Isn’t it funny in these politically correct times there is no problem in trotting out that old canard about the “Hindu rate of growth”? Particularly when you remember that Rajaji a fierce critic of Nehruvian statism was a lifelong Hindu!
Shiva, what quote of Dr. BR Shenoy are you referring to? I see not a single quote on this thread of Dr. Shenoys. Of the other three names you have mentioned I will focus on Rajaji. I automatically discount anyone who has emerged from Doon school in the 70’s 🙂 unless he has proven him/herself and John Mathai I will leave to you. Rajaji was not a fierce critic of Nehru’s socialist policies. Here is one specific quote “Encouraging competition in industry and giving incentives for higher production are good for the public as well as for the private interests. I want an India where talent and energy can find scope for play without having to cringe and obtain special individual permission from officials and ministers, and where their efforts will be judged by the open market in India and abroad.”. That is not a fierce criticism of a socialist policy. It is a fierce criticism of India’s license-raj. Let us not be quick to trash “socialism”. Rajaji was a great thinker, but he did not have to lead the country. I for one, would take Nehru’s handling of India’s independence anyday over the many other countries that were suddenly left to think for themselves in the absence of colonial masters. It speaks volumes to the Indian intellect and culture(that which everybody so likes to deride) that we could actually have differences of opinion as between Sardar Patel, Nehru, Rajaji and the like and still evolve with our own identity. If democracy is chaos at the cost of free thinking, give me democracy. Now to address this since a few others have expressed it :
Does socialism automatically imply economic ruin? well, let us say it does. Certainly we as humans have not proven ourselves capable of disproving evolutionary theory “survival of the fittest”. Still, we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg in India. Common market prices of basic goods needed, called the three basic necessities – food, clothing and shelter are, as a percentage of annual income, rapidly outstripping average middle class incomes. India’s middle class is about 250 million now. Let us see number of people below poverty line : 300 million. BTW, the poverty line is defined as 300 rupees a month. OK, that still leaves about 450 million – 550 million people who fall in the upper class by these figures. Thats a stretch of imagination for me but lets accept it. Still, we are at 550 million people who are stretching to live on their salary. Thats roughly 1.6 the population of this country. So do you have any solution to this problem other than restrained growth to prevent rapacious capitalists to exploit before suitable policies and laws can be put into place for checks and balances? Before the people of India can actually all think for themselves and express themselves and say, yes, we like growth, but we would also like to be a part of it!
In response to why is Gujarat as poor as the rest of India – Keep in mind that Gujarat is no closed off oasis. Migrants from all over India converge upon the state to do menial jobs and other low-paying work (and high-paying jobs as well). Gujarat will never have an income 5 times that of the Indian average because before the economy betters to that degree, word would spread that it was economically beneficial to move there as pay was better(view the many migrant living quarters that spring up in open fields and areas). In contrast, Gujaratis themselves move across India to become businessmen and professionals(millions live in Maharashtra alone). This dominance is seen on the Indian stock exchange as close to 25% of the listed companies are Gujarati. So while at the end of the day, you see the average salary in Gujarat is not much higher than the rest of India, to Gujaratis and to those who have walked the cities of Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Surat and Gandhinagar it sure as hell looks much better off than other major urban centers and thus richer where the reality is that a poor underclass exists in the state and will always exist as a replenishable population source is present. PS I would also believe that Gujaratis were more likely to know someone abroad as a huge percentage of the American, British, African expatriate population is of Gujarati descent and this would contribute to a better worldwide business knowledge and most importantly an availability of opportunities through an extended kinship network that others would not possess.
I see, so Radha please explain for our benefit the philosophy and knowledge behind the gruesome bengali religious practice of animal (and human, until the Brits banned it!) sacrifices to Kali….
turnip,
So do you have any solution to this problem other than restrained growth to prevent rapacious capitalists to exploit before suitable policies and laws can be put into place for checks and balances
The assumption here is that India’s socialist policies would’ve helped the poor, if it were implemented successfully. A lot of folks contend that India has not liberalised enough. The small business sector and the poor are the most affected by India’s license-quota system. The Center for Civil Society, India has done excellent research on that topic. [Related topic: why do India’s policy makers want to keep a majority of Indians in poverty. Re this.]
“I see, so Radha please explain for our benefit the philosophy and knowledge behind the gruesome bengali religious practice of animal (and human, until the Brits banned it!) sacrifices to Kali….”
What incidentally is so terrible about sacrificing goats? Don’t gujjus have havans-where do you think that came from-from the vedic sacrificial rituals. The concept of sacrifice is pretty common for all hindus.
Bengalis are meant to eat the meat after the goat is killed or distribute it to the poor-no different from Muslims slaughtering goats or cows or whatever else on Eid. Bengalis are generally not vegetarian. And the role of blood and spiritual power has been documented in many religions-from drinking the body and blood of christ, to bloody animal sacrifices. At any rate, killing in the name of hinduism is something that Gujarat is certainly more known for than Bengalis are.
Incidentally, aren’t most gujjus Vaishnav? You actually owe bengalis a debt of gratitude then-it was Chaitanya (a Bengali) that brought the worship of Radhakrishna to the rest of India.
Oh and btw, I’m not a Bengali myself.
Quizman, Absolutely right. It is not guaranteed that socialist policies would have helped the poor. However, coming out of British rule it seems to be a reasonable option to ensure that the country did not rend itself apart because I am sure there were a lot of people who would have liked to resume their kingly and autocratic ways. That was a good link.
Its nuts to boast that the only cities in the world filthy and backward enough to still breed the plague are “better off”.
India is a caste-ridden society. Casteism isn’t socialism, didnt you know?
The License Raj was nothing but a corrupt nexus of clueless, casteist, incompetent brahmin babus and selfish, greedy, casteist baniya industrialists.
“At any rate, killing in the name of hinduism is something that Gujarat is certainly more known for than Bengalis are.”
Aaah. Finally. I was just waiting for it. Applause. Applause. Since the first comment i was just waiting when this is brought up. It is an easy way out. Surely here it is. but i am sure this topic has been discussed to death here at SM. so lets not get into it. ok? “Its nuts to boast that the only cities in the world filthy and backward enough to still breed the plague are “better off”.” Dude have you even been to Surat after the plague? Surat is as clean, if not more, than Bangalore or Hyderabad.
Just wondering if all those people looking for jobs in BIMARU states were given a choice work either in Bengal or in Gujarat. Where would they go? Gee that is surely a tough decision to make. I would surely love to become a commie, live amongst with my fellow comrades and indulge myself in all intellectual yadayada every night in indulge myself in the aesthetic, and culturally rich environment of Bengal which the rich yet unaesthetic (afterall, money cant buy “good taste” ) Gujaratis could never provide. Duh!! thats a no-brainer.
PS. Radha, If Bengal begins with a “B”, doesnt Hinduism begin with a “H”? I mean even if you are an atheist, just for the sake of convention?
Hey truthseeker, the current economic growth in India will allow the top ten percent of the population to earn enough to hire more servants for their benefit. Consider this : post IT boom, many Tamil Brahmins moved back to Tamil Nadu. It used to be the rule that a middle class babu could only hire one Dravidian for his family. Now the motto is “one Dravidian to massage each foot.” Get your bleeding heart out of your arse and worry about yourself and how many Dravidians YOU can hire, rather than the starving masses which is the socialist mindet that got India into trouble in the first place.
Is post 132 a bad attempt at being SpoorNam or just crazy bs?
The ugly face of India:
radha:
varnadharm:
Sathya,
Since we have strayed away from the topic of this thread, what is so ugly about sacrificing goats and then eating them? I see, you would rather have the sanitised industrial scale slaughtering of animals for food and the putting to sleep of old and infirm pets with a gun shot to the head like in Texas and the US. Now that is the civilized beautiful face of the west!
what is so ugly about sacrificing goats and then eating them? >>
let’s take the bull by the horns, and just say this is a christist/orientalist “critique” of pagans. let’s go to the full conclusion instead of prancing about the dead body in the room like so many sepia mutineers..
Truthseeker
<
blockquote>The License Raj was nothing but a corrupt nexus of clueless, casteist, incompetent brahmin babus and selfish, greedy, casteist baniya industrialists.
Lol. Consider the casteists you talk about . . . which castes are they appealing to? The casteists primarily come form the low caste side, not the other. And consider . . . who are the ones fighting to uphold the current system? They are the casteists, the reservationists, the labor unions . . . not the industrialists. Consider that Nehru flat out said he wanted to implement a Soviet type system of a more Fabian variety.
And also, about the Gujurati diaspora, including India I would estimate atleast 12-14 million living outside of Gujurat. Significant number, estimate many millions across major Indian cities, and a couple million including the US, Africa, UK.
Too bad India doesn’t have all that oil to lift its people out of the poverty! Seriously are you just clinging to numbers to prove a point here?
Spin away brother! Wonder where the licence raj came from if not from socialist policies? The brahmins and baniya sat together and said lets make a deal.. brahmins rule and baniya’s get exclusive licences to trade.. right.. People defending socialism seem to disown the ill effects of it like it has nothing to do with it. Blame a paricular class for the problems, blame human greed or whatever, excuses, excuses. Any system which can’t take into consideration the power equations of the society or human behavior is a bound to fail. The hypocrisy of the practitioners of socialism is mind boggling. An idea of few short sighted intellectuals imposed on the rest of the society.
Vinay, the objective of many radicals is to take what is given, see it fail (see: Soviet Union), and then claim it wasn’t true communism/socialism/utopianism There’s only one recorded “success” of collectivisation, and that is Cuba. And it can barely be considered so. Its an easy copout to place the collective Brahmin boogeyman, but the truth of the matter is it is organized labor (comprising of all castes) that has the greatest stranglehold on the country.
Do you actually think personal anecdotes rather than numbers is the way to prove a point? Thats the way to cling to delusions. Like the dumb delusion that Gujarat is as prosperous as Iran, Brazil etc.
Organized labor did not prevent America from becoming an economic superpower. Did it?
If India actually implemented socialism it would have outlawed the pernicious caste system, enforced the minimum wage, provided universal education and healthcare and so on. All the developed nations of the world are a healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. If anything India is one of the least socialist nations on earth. It abandons huge chunks of its population to beggary, hunger, illiteracy, homelessness.
You are right, organized labor did not prevent the US from becoming an economic power. Similarly outlawing all kinds of social differences and making everyone an equal comrade (the equivalent of a casteless system) did not make the USSR an economic power either. Did it? So don’t throw caste system (whatever it means) as a reason for economic backwardness. Nehru and the post-indpendence Indian Congress governments did not implement any ism whether socialism or capitalism. Whatever it was, it was a unique Indian blend of a mixed economy where both the private and public sectors had a role to play. You can trace LSE economists influence, but regardless the private sector was severely constrained in what it could produce, how much of it and price controls, with no internal competition (the license raj) which effectively curtailed a vibrant private sector from being much more productive. Import substitution and other protectionist policies were the right thing to do in the initial years as most countries including the US, Japan, Korea have all done so when embarking on their economic ascent. So nothing wrong with that. But it should have been used to grow our own domestic industrial leaders. The public sector had a large role early on, but they needed to have domestic competition and internal accountability for them to have been more productive in later years.
You are right that the one thing the Indian state has failed is in providing universal education and healthcare much more aggressively. It still isn’t doing enough in this regard.
About Gujarathis and Bengalis, it would be true to say that more Gujarathis are entrepreneurial and business oriented than the Bengalis. I will leave the value judgements on whether intellectual pursuits or money making money is more important to the individual. Suffice it to say that a society needs a healthy balance of not just these two groups, namely the intellectuals and the business people, but also the military and the labor (organized if you prefer). Oops that would be the same as the ancient four-fold Varna ideal, which wasn’t meant to be based on birth.
No, thank God. Ever flown in to Mumbai, Kolkatta airports? THAT is unionized labor in action, my friend. And when they were threatened with . . . having to do work . . . to clean up the place, they raised hell.
Lol. You keep trying. See if you can find another couple billion takers to replace the the tens of millions of whom have either been directly killed thanks to your buddies in the USSR, China (let me guess, they weren’t “true” communists” or indirectly put through generations of economic and social misery. You’ve been on the losing side all throughout history, have you ever cared to wonder why?
I think those ideas are prevalent in the Indian society and it is question of implementing it. Got any ideas to share about implementing those ideas?
It seems to me that the idealistic socialist forgot about that part of deal. Anybody can make laws, but if you can’t implement them it means nothing. If India doesn’t have the will to implement “socialism” as it may mean to you, then maybe its time to throw out that idea.
Good point! Every system is prone to get corrupt and so did the Varna ideal. You can see American system of capitalism running into problems now (but is still the best system practiced today).
It is a mistake to equate the hindu caste system, which has a religious basis, to the socio-economic classes found in other societies.
But what this entrepreneurial orientation has accomplished for the state of Gujarat, where most gujaratis are concentrated, isn’t much to crow about. Is it?
Its telling that you left out Untouchability in this “healthy balance”. How does that hindu institution fit into your scheme? A religion that practices social division and apartheid simply on the basis of birth is a pernicious, unjust and oppressive one.
As for the claim that the varna system was not based on birth in its original promulgation, can you point us to the time in history when hinduism required any kind of meritocratic test before assigning caste status? Thats right, you can’t.
By this same logic India should throw out the caste system as well. Since it hasn’t shown the will to implement casteism correctly by its own principles. How many “brahmins” today practice their caste vocation? Either force all brahmins to do what the scriptures describe as their dharma, or throw out brahminism entirely.
India doesn’t have the will to enforce its laws either. Perhaps you should demand that the legal system should also be thrown out?
You have no idea about the situation in India, do you? If it is a “hindu caste system, which has a religious basis”, why are Dalit Christians and Dalit Muslims clamoring for reservation? Dalit Christian and a Dalit Muslim should not exist, right?
I ould care less who wants to crow about it. Some Gujarathis for it and you against it!
I thought your prescription for ills was to outlaw them. Well, untouchability has been outlawed by the Indian constitution!
Caste is a useless term that muddles understanding. The only reality in India is and has been jati, which translates to clans or tribes in other societies and there are thousands of them. Varna as a theoretical construct has only four categories. Sometime in history some of these jatis especially in North India, mapped themselves to one of the varnas based on the predominant occupations within the jati. Many did not, especially the many jatis that are classified as ‘scheduled castes’ or ‘Dalits’. These jatis have been dynamic throughout history with many rising or falling based on their economic and political power some banding together and others breaking apart. In the south, in Tamil Nadu to be specific, the only jatis to map into the varna scheme were the Iyers and Iyengars as Brahmins since they saw a benefit in doing that. No other jatis did this or do this since varna is a theoretcial construct and it was not of any benefit or requirement for them to do so.
In present day India every individual is free to choose their professions. It may still be useful to see these professions as being labor, military, intellectual or business oriented like the four-fold varna ideal and to say that we need a healthy balance of those professions.
i>As for the claim that the varna system was not based on birth in its original promulgation, can you point us to the time in history when hinduism required any kind of meritocratic test before assigning caste status? Thats right, you can’t.
The Buddha formulated a different criteria for defining a Brahmin:
Not by matted hair, nor by family, nor by birth does one become a Brahmana. But in whom there exist both truth and righteousness, pure is he, a Brahmana is he.
What is the use of your matted hair, O witless man? What is the use of your antelope skin garment? Within, you are full of passions; without, you embellish yourself.