A few weeks ago, six imams were removed from an USAIR flight originating from Minneapolis where they had just been attending a conference of Imams held at the Mall of America on building bridges. Their suspicious behavior? Praying out loud while they waited and asking for seatbelt extensions. (Here’s an argument that their behavior was truly suspicious and here’s an argument saying it wasn’t). Coulter: Profiling Muslims is … like profiling the Klan
Before they knew it, airport police swarmed onto the plane, and the six imams were herded out, handcuffed and interrogated for hours… After the FBI cleared them, US Airways still refused to allow them to fly. The imams bought tickets on Northwest Airlines and flew back to Phoenix… [Link]
The event has produced widely differing reactions. Ann Coulter piped up to argue that it is good to profile Muslims and Arabs (she makes little distinction), saying:
After the attacks of 9/11, profiling Muslims is more like profiling the Klan. [Link]
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Washington DC area talk show host Jerry Klein went the other direction, staging an event to demonstrate how deep bigotry towards Muslims was. First he suggested that “all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band,” a suggestion that was supported by manycallers. One went further, saying:
… that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver’s licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. “What good is identifying them?” he asked. “You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans…” [Link]
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p>At the end of the hour long show, where many people had called in to argue that visual identification of Muslims would make other Americans safer, the host turned the tables on his callers:
Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. … “I can’t believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said,” he told his audience … “For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people’s bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver’s license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It’s beyond disgusting.
“Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen … We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous…” [Link]
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p>This same debate about difference and disloyalty has now mutated and cropped up in the debate about the swearing in of the first Muslim congressman, Keith Ellison, coincidentally of Minnesota:
When America’s first Muslim congressman, a Democrat from Minnesota, let it be known he will carry a Koran to his swearing-in ceremony on Jan. 4, conservative pundit Dennis Prager called it “an act of hubris … that undermines American civilization.”
In a web column, the talk-show host said, “Insofar as a member of Congress taking an oath to serve America and uphold its values is concerned, America is interested in only one book, the Bible. If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don’t serve in Congress…” [Link]
What makes this position so interesting is that it is both irrelevant and unconstitutional. It is irrelevant because congressmen do not take an oath on any book at all:
In Congress, newly elected representatives do not put their left hands on any book. They raise their right hands, and are sworn in together as the speaker of the House administers the oath of office. Some do carry a book, according to House historians, and some choose to photograph a private swearing-in afterward with their hand on the Bible. One senator is known to have carried an expanded Bible that included the Book of Mormon. [Link]
So for the purpose of being sworn in you could carry a dictionary with you, it doesn’t matter. The book is just for the photo op. It’s unconstitutional because:
The Constitution says: “The senators and representatives … shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States…” [Link]
Prager may or may not know that, but that’s besides the point. The debate here and above seems to be largely about symbolic loyalty, what it takes to be considered American.
The irony is that in 2000, there was a great pan-conservative movement, created in part by activists like Grover Norquist, where conservative Christians, Jews and Muslims had all found common cause in the Bush Presidency. Six years ago, cultural conservatives would have had less of a problem with Ellison’s actions, as long as he carried a holy book at all. Now, however, lines have been redrawn and the same conservative Muslims who were once seen as allies in the fight against secular humanism and sex education, are now seen as outsiders. To me it just shows how insincere their inclusion was in the first place.
All the probes dismiss the cliams of racism.
The mental instability claim was also used for the Pakistani American who shot the Jewish woman not too long ago and that Popal guy in San Francisco who ran over 14 people. Seems to be a lot of that “mental instability” going around. Except in the case of attacks against Muslims.
Washington Times is not an acceptable source on this blog…. 😉
The very first link on this story is to the Washington Times.
My bad… The Times, they are a changin’ 🙂
…sorry for the Threadjack
I turned on NPR on the way to lunch and Anna was talking about Diwali Barbies 🙂
…back on thread now…
Wow! that my friend is a pathetic argument! Using a general statement to dismiss the validity of a specific case. Now that’s why the self-appointed “conservative” commentators like you are not taken seriously. You are only doing a dis-service to the conservative viewpoint in your zeal to score a cheap point.
This is a nonsensical statement, Vikram. An individual can be mentally unstable. Can a group? More to the point, do you think that the LAPD or the management of major American airlines are “mentally unstable”?
I mean man, an action perpetrated by an individual is qualitatively different than one perpetrated by a social institution, whether it’s a governmental entity, a corporation, an interest group, or even a religion. That shouldn’t be so hard to understand.
If there’s a white guy and he goes out and shoots a brown guy, I’ll buy that it’s mental instability. But that’s not the same as being tasered multiple times by the police, or being interrogated for speaking your native tongue in public.
And you are…? the “liberal” vox populi ?
Does every political discussion have to be about winning elections? Dismissing all statistics just because it’s hard to understand which ones to believe just helps people who don’t want to be held accountable for anything.
I am sorry Vikram, your comments do not interest me. They add no value to my life. If you had a point you would stick to it, but I see from your response that you have none.
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blockquote> This is a nonsensical statement, Vikram. An individual can be mentally unstable. Can a group? More to the point, do you think that the LAPD or the management of major American airlines are “mentally unstable”?
I pointed out three incidents that took place a couple of months apart. In all cases “mental instability” is promptly accepted as the reason for the attacks. (Interestingly if it were mental instability , that would be worth discussing in itself , but I guess not on this blog). Does that seem reasonable to you ?
Whether or not the imams were “behaving suspiciously” or however you want to characterize it, from the personal experiences of folks on this blog it is pretty clear that there is active discrimination and latent racism towards anyone who looks brown or “Muslim” (since those are being used interchangeably despite the fact that African Americans are one of the largest Muslim populations in the U.S.).
I guess the underlying question is, “Is (racial/ethnic) profiling good foreign policy for the U.S.?” I would argue no, and not just from some kind of knee-jerk liberal bias or whatnot, but because I spent some time working for the U.S. Dept. of Justice just after 9/11, and most times looking for “suspicious behavior” (which is much more broadly defined) was more effective from a law enforcement perspective than relying on superficial measures.
Also, off topic, but because I wasn’t able to follow up with citations last time:
So I was the person who made that claim, and here are the citations I said I would provide:
Total Asian American enrollment in colleges in 2000/01 (I couldn’t find more updated stats): 6% [cite1] [cite2] [cite3] Total Asian American enrollment in “elite” colleges, 2005: 10-30% [cite] Number of People Who Are “Asian” Alone (including immigrants but not including mixed race individuals) in the U.S. (2005): 4.3% [cite]
So it could be that Asian Americans are slightly underrepresented (particularly when you disaggregate), but it’s almost impossible to tell since Asians are lumped together with Asian Americans, and because people who identify as “mixed race” or “decline to state” could be attributed in another manner, and it depends on if you are lumping together Pacific Islanders and Native Hawaiians.
All that said, the numbers look like folks are about on par, currently, but if you look at the 10 years before that Asian Americans were definitely underrepresented in college enrollment. It’s hard to track it further than that because the U.S. Census didn’t necessarily take down racial/ethnic data for “subcommunities” within the “Asian” banner.
Likewise.
Camille:whether they behaved suspiciously or not is exactly the salient point. By the way, what would you all call suspicious behavior? Suspicious enough to warrant intervention? Just curious……
Also, is anyone arguing that hate violence against any group is ok? Red herring as far as I’m concerned. I certainly didn’t get that impression, and while statistically hate violence against Jews is still the highest of any religious community (pre- and post-9/11), there was also an increase in hate violence against Muslims and “Other” (presumably Sikhs/Hindus) of over 300% between 2000 and 2002. As Neal mentioned, these numbers may be artificially low since underreporting is notorious among immigrant communities, communities with limited English proficiency, the very young, and the very old – all of whom were major targets post 9/11.
And, as rarely as I agree with razib, it’s important to note that people could still harbor negative attitudes, prejudices, or associations with the larger Muslim community regardless of whether they physically beat someone or deface their property. I’d be interested to see statistics on how many people are denied employment opportunities, loans, etc., because they “appear” Muslim/Arab. I’ll have to go hunting for it, but a recent employment discrimination story mentioned that African Americans still had the highest barriers to employment… save for people with “Arab-sounding names.”
MD–I’m not dismissing statistics outright. I think if you are going to make factual claims, you should provide evidence (and generally when I have made factual claims in my posts on this site I’ve provided a link to support them. Whether or not poeple trust my sources is up to them to decide). However, I think that liberals in general feel too much of a burden of proof, while politicians on the right resort to compelling rhetoric that is more appealing to people. I think that we could take a page out of their book, not in making incendiary statements without factual basis, but in making heartfelt, emotional ones on occasion. Bill Clinton, I think had this balance down and that’s why he was such a great politician.
Three highly reported incidents out of the hundreds of hate crimes (and hundreds of thousands of assaults) that took place across the nation in that period of time? Starting with a sample size of anywhere from 1 to 7 million people? Yeah, I think it’s fair to say that mental instability still holds up as a theory.
Of course mental illness has long been linked with stressful conditions, so a population that’s being discriminated against would obviously show higher rates anyway. So if anything, 3 incidents might seem a little low.
But let’s be honest here. The reason you even heard about these cases is because they were committed by Islamic perpetrators. Don’t tell me you’ve read about every unprovoked assault in this country. Just off the top of your head, how many white Christians attacked other white Christians without provocation in that span of time? Crazy, violent shit happens every day, but it doesn’t always become national news. You heard about it for the same reason that the examples Ennis listed are a problem: the media is very willing to promote a storyline of violent Islam.
But I would really love it if you would just come out and say what you’re thinking. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but your comments keep pointing to an assumption that all Muslims are inherently violent. If in fact that’s what you’re trying imply, it would probably be a good idea if that particular bias was acknowledged up front with no lingering questions.
Well, Bill Clinton could connect, allright. I disagree with so much of what he says and does, and yet, I can’t help viewing him with some affection. Politicians need this gift, which makes a Hillary candidacy interesting….she doesn’t quite have the gift as far as I can see, but she’s a hard worker so we will see.
So here’s where I totally contradict myself, but within the FBI and DOJ there are whole documents that define “criminally suspicious behavior” (I should have been more specific, I apologize). I have no idea how that is defined now in a post-9/11 context, especially for airlines. That said, I think airlines should be discriminating about all their passengers. I think people pay an inordinate amount of attention to people who they think “look Muslim” or “look Arab” [brown, really], at the expense of other suspicious characters. I think this is pure laziness. It is easier to focus on phenotypic or xenophobic assumptions than to have to be vigilant with every passenger you meet. I think some airlines/airports are consistent with a lot of their passengers, and I think some use much more racially/ethnically defined methods.
To bring up everyone’s favorite, people were convinced Muslims had bombed the Oklahoma City Building until they figured out it was Timothy McVeigh. I know it adds time to the process, but if you’re going to be strict with one group, be strict with all groups.
Yes, but intellectually they are about the same. They are both bomb throwers. Yes, Ann Coulter probably has more influence but almost any sensible conservative does not pay attention to her anymore. NR, the preeminent conservative mag. fired her right after 9/11.
I don’t care much for Rove’s republican party because it is no longer conservative.
For razib and anyone else’s who’s interested, an article on the issues with berber vs arab identitiy in Morocco. By the way, this article claims that Berbers are the majority population in Morocco, as does the Wikipedia entry on Morocco. So clearly there are several versions of this statistical “truth”, despite your claim that Moroccans are mostly Arab. Ironic, considering your call for more factual accuracy.
my interpretation of vikram’s comments is that he’s pointing out that there’s an insitutional racism among muslims, that manifests itself in various ways, including individuals, menatally stable or not, trying to kill non-muslims.
so vinays distinction:
…is really a distinction w/o a difference.
True, but like Neal said in the post here, she was giving a speech at the GOPAC with Cheney in the audience. Conservative politicians will not distance her as long as she has a fan following as they need those votes, so something has to be done about it.
Whoa whoa whoa. You’re going to have to back up and contextualize that since Islam is one of the world’s most diverse religions. Particularly in how you’re using “institutional racism.”
How is there no difference between individual hatred and a discriminatory state policy? I am legitimately curious.
How does she have influence then, and over whom? If the sensible conservatives have shunned her, is her market amongst moderates? Leftists perhaps?
For razib and anyone else’s who’s interested, an article on the issues with berber vs arab identitiy in Morocco. By the way, this article claims that Berbers are the majority population in Morocco, as does the Wikipedia entry on Morocco. So clearly there are several versions of this statistical “truth”, despite your claim that Moroccans are mostly Arab. Ironic, considering your call for more factual accuracy.
why don’t you just stick your tongue out at me while you’re at it? seroiusly 🙂 here is what the wikipedia article says:
About three-quarters of all present-day Moroccans are of Berber descent, while Arabs form the second largest ethnic group.
The country’s distinctive Arabic dialect is called Moroccan Arabic. Approximately 12 million (40% of the population), mostly in rural areas, speak Berber – which exists in Morocco in three different dialects (Tarifit, Tashelhiyt, and Tamazight) – either as a first language or bilingually with the spoken Arabic dialect.
i’m not ignorant of the nuances of ethnicity and “being berber.” that being said, i find it irrelevant that the vast majority of moroccan’s are of “berber ancestry.” i tend to privilege the language on speaks as more important and i haven’t seen any numbers which suggest that more moroccan’s speak berber as their first language than arabic. perhaps like welsh who can’t speak welsh some berbers retain berber tribal identification without speaking berber. i wouldn’t know.
but i think my first comment was still worth it insofar as your comment implied that morocco was a predominantly non-arab muslim country to a third party. obviously more complicated than that, though in the “who is a arab” (e.g., are copts and lebanese christians arab?) i use language as a touchstone (ergo, i don’t think somolia really should be in the arab league).
Ok Sigmund, if mental illness is linked to stress caused by discrimination, we should be hearing of 1000s of mentally ill Jewish drivers mowing down people too shouldn’t we ? The FBI stats point out a 6:1 ratio of anti-Jewish hate crimes compared with anti-Islamic. Why isn’t that happening ? I’d love to know your explanation.
One thing the leader of a sleeper Islamic terror cell on American soil would do is to contact some other sympathetic muslims (who are on the right side of the law on all aspects) to:
And do this over and over and over again, in state after state. Eventually, the authorities who are responsible for security become fatigued and frazzled enough that they are wary of taking any action against anyone – especially mid-eastern looking muslims.
And then, when this fatigue has set in deep, the sleeper cell will awaken. See, at that point they will not stop people with powder, backpacks with wires etc etc. The chances of their operation becoming successful are more than ever
I certainly hope the authorities can see through this charade.
M. Nam
@129
Yo man, why are you giving ideas to our enemies!! Someone report this guy to FBI.
Rednecks. Christian fundamentalists. Anybody who can stand more than five minutes of her sociopathic induced verbal diarrhea.
That’s because while Islam may have been founded on peaceful principles, the current world scenario is certainly not advancing it as such. From Iraq to Thailand to Russia, the only news that ever reaches the western world is about Islam and its association with unadulterated brutality, whether it’s purported by Muslims themselves or Muslims serve as the victims. I honestly can’t blame the majority of the US population for thinking as they do, the same as I wouldn’t blame someone in Iran for believing biased reports about Christianity or Judaism. Without making the effort to avoid generalizations, you’re forced to rely on what others want you to think and not the actual truth.
wrt #129:
Move over, Jack Higgins…
You forgot Darfur…
I was on a plane a couple of weeks ago where right after the cabin doors closed this olive-skinned dude in the row in front of me took out his cell to sneak in a last minute phone call and started screaming in Arabic at whoever was on the other end. I was sitting next to an older white man and he and I simultaneously exchanged looks best described as “HOLY FUCKING SHIT.” Seriously, it was so loud two infants in the back of the plane woke up and started bawling. I know the guy was probably arguing with his wife over whose turn it was to bring home the groceries but WHY? Why would you purposely draw attention to yourself like that and more importantly, freak the hell out of everyone around you?
“Culture of fear,” you say? I don’t buy it. Maybe it’s because I’m a woman living in a city and the threat of violence is very real (and to think otherwise would be foolish) and something I have thought about about daily since before 9/11, so you bet I think about it when I’m flying too. It doesn’t rule my life but it does factor into my decisions.
So did anyone turn in the rude cellphone user? No. No one wants to be that person who’s later attacked for being racist and ignorant. But I have never been so relieved to land safely in my life.
My list is by no means complete. The situation in Darfur is special because the media disproportionately reports on it, and when they do it’s spun as more of an ethnic conflict than an intra-religious one (for that matter, I believe it’s a combination of both.)
1) You pointed out three examples of individual Muslims attacking people. Three. Not “1000s”. I’m pretty sure I could find 3 examples of people who happened to be both Jewish and violently insane.
2) There’s a growing body of research looking at discrimination as a contributor to mental illness, both directly and in conjunction with research into stress. This Dept of Health site is a good review, and you can read everything you’ve ever wanted to know about the impact of stress on health here. There’s been a lot of work done on stigma and mental health among gay populations which would apply here as well.
3) I already responded to your “6:1” statistic above. People who don’t trust the police are not as likely to report non-violent crimes. Also, keep in mind that there are up to four times more Jews in the US than Muslims, so a 6:1 ratio wouldn’t be that unexpected even if they were experiencing nearly the same amount of discrimination.
Now all of that said, anti-Semitism is still obviously real in this country. And I’m sure there are some people who crack up because of it. The difference is that when “David” goes off his meds and assaults someone instead of “Hassan”, it doesn’t make the national news. The difference is that if 3 of the roughly 4 million Jews in the country (or, let’s adjust for population — 12 of them) are involved in violent crimes, people don’t start writing op-eds about how Abraham was a terrorist and Judaism was a religion of violence.
Founded on peaceful principles? you really believe that? For a moment let’s forget the association of Islam to violence and talk about the fundamental principles of Americans. Isn’t America supposed to be about equality, opportunity and rule of law? It is a country based on the rule of law not fear, and certainly not based on a rule according to whims of the authority figures. In the fight against the extremists we are becoming part them. In the meantime we continue to do that which feeds the extremism. We are only treating the symptoms of the disease.
And do what? Indefinitely jail brown people who buy stereo wires, use powdered sugar, and dare to speak in foreign languages at international airports? Guantanamo for all? Gotta make sure al-Qaeda knows we’re not falling for their fiendish trickery…
You do realize, of course, that the average American could not tell the difference between a Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Buddhist, Christian, or atheist as long as he has brown skin, right?
With all my heart.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying – but if you’re alluding to America’s founding principles, then I will have to say that we cannot fault the original fathers for not being able to look forward enough into the future to predict certain perversions of the Constitution by current figures of authority.
How? By feeding into the media attention that they garner? By “sympathizing” with them, as MoorNam has suggested? What exactly is the basis of your argument?
Another hypothetical question… Would you put your kid or neice or nephew on that plane?
lol, but what does your mind say?
No! I am talking about the principles which have brought this country its greatness and success. Equality (to the extent that it can be guaranteed, opportunity (to seek happiness, money, etc.), and rule of law (that there is a good consensus to its fairness and effectiveness in its enforcement)
No yo! by our short-sighted foreign policy! By continuing to support the American way of consuming too many resources despite the visible ill-effects of the same.
Yes please do. Especially examples where they attacked people while saying things like they wanted to “Punish the Goyim”
An interesting quote from Omar Shahin, one of ejected imams, from 2001:
Sharp as a razor, that Shahin.
Hmm…I don’t know…I speak Hindi fluently, Telugu just barely, and Malayalam not at all, yet I identify as South Indian/Telugu/Malyali more than I identify with Hindi as being “my” language. It’s a complicated and fascinating issue but totally off topic so I hate to threadjack by continuing this discussion so I promise to refrain from any further comment.
If I didn’t, it would be because I was affected by the pack mentality of fear, and I would recognize that. If we need to accept the need for vigilante profiling by those traveling on the average US flight in order to be safe, then being safe is just not worth it. My safety is not worth violating someone else’s civil liberties. I’m fine with baggage searches, questioning by airport staff, taking my shoes off, and squeezing my conditioner into dinky little bottles in the name of safety. I’ll jump through any hoops the FAA wants me to if it’s required by law. I’m not fine with the other passengers on a plane getting to decide if I’m okay to fly or not.
Anyone noticed this comment from Ann Coulter’s article..
She’s not making this up.. From translation of Sahih Muslim book 41
I like the last one better. Looks like Mohammad has marked one type of tree as a Jewish supporter and the rest of the “trees” are for jihad..
🙂
What is this, bash-a-muslim day?…and on this famously leftist blog?
Gulab -I mean no disrespect to you personally. Only to the Quran and Islam.
“That’s because while Islam may have been founded on peaceful principles,”
If you say that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peace loving people, I couldn’t agree more. But, If you claim that Islam was founded on peaceful principles, then, either you have never read the Quran, or,have failed to grasp its message, which reeeks of violence and vengeance. Not to mention, misogyny and idiocy.
[Admin note: Kritic is clearly violating our comment policy with this comment. No more warnings]
oooooook. I am not in the mood to debate the interpretation and context of isolated hadith nor why I believe what I believe. I shouldn’t have to justify my religious views. I also think that this isn’t the direction ennis imagined for this post.
kritic- You just accused me of never having read the Qur’an and/or misinterpreting it. Furthermore you just denounced the entire religion. You think this doesn’t offend me? Wow.
I’m peacin out of this post.