The latest nationally recognized incident of excessive use of force by the LAPD police in Los Angeles (the third this week) came Tuesday night right here on the UCLA campus’ main library. Apparently UCLA has a policy by which they do random ID checks at the library after 11 p.m. That’s all good, since it is for the benefit of student safety. That’s what started this incident:
According to a campus police report, the incident began when community service officers, who serve as guards at the library, began their nightly routine of checking to make sure everyone using the library after 11 p.m. is a student or otherwise authorized to be there…When [Mostafa] Tabatabainejad, 23, refused to provide his ID to the community service officer, the officer told him he would have to show it or leave the library, the report said.
After repeated requests, the officer left and returned with campus police, who asked Tabatabainejad to leave “multiple times,” according to a statement by the UCLA Police Department.
“He continued to refuse,” the statement said. “As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building.”
Witnesses disputed that account, saying that when campus police arrived, Tabatabainejad had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack. When an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, the witnesses said, Tabatabainejad told the officer to let go, yelling “Get off me” several times.
“Tabatabainejad encouraged library patrons to join his resistance,” police said. “The officers deemed it necessary to use the Taser.”
Officers stunned Tabatabainejad, causing him to fall to the floor. [Link]
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Here is my issue with what I see in the clip. If a person violates a law and you want to arrest him then go ahead. I am certainly not going to argue that Tabatabainejad did not deserve to be arrested. There are legal ways to change a law if you think it is stupid. What I take issue with is the repeated use of a Taser as a punitive measure against a passively resisting citizen that is already on the ground. Passive resistance is a gift given to us by Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. If the officers need to then they can call for backup. A handful of officers shouldn’t have a problem cuffing and carrying a limp, non-compliant man to their waiting car unless he is morbidly obese. The Taser is used here to punish the victim for disobeying authority. Is this what could happen to me if I ever non-violently protest something? And what if this individual was mentally ill or off his meds? Add to this toxic mix the fact that he was Muslim (and I’m guessing that he probably has brown skin).
You will note in the video that the other students in the library are on the verge of rioting against the police. The police start looking like cornered animals as more and more students gather around, ask for their badge numbers, and tell them that they are abusing their power.
As the student and the officers were struggling, bystanders repeatedly asked the police officers to stop, and at one point officers told the gathered crowd to stand back and threatened to use a Taser on anyone who got too close.
Laila Gordy, a fourth-year economics student who was present in the library during the incident, said police officers threatened to shoot her with a Taser when she asked an officer for his name and his badge number. [Link]
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p>As you might have expected, CAIR is all over this:
The Southern California office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA) today called for an independent investigation of an incident late Tuesday in which a student at the University of California Los Angeles (UCLA) was given multiple “Taser” stun gun shocks by campus police.
CAIR-LA was contacted by several UCLA students who expressed their concern about possible civil rights violations by police officers. [Link]
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p>Tabatabainejad got off a few shots of his own as he was being Tasered:
Video shot from a student’s camera phone captured the student yelling, “Here’s your Patriot Act, here’s your fucking abuse of power,” while he struggled with the officers. [Link]
Thank goodness for cell phone cameras.
Update:
Let the UCLA PD know what you think. Here is what they have to say about it.
From the UCLA Daily Bruin:
The last sentence above should also be within the quotation.
sluggo:
His name shows up on the UCLA directory search ..so I guess he’s a student at UCLA.
the library must have its own video of the entire incident. most areas of uc libraries are monitored via video. when and if that comes out, it should provide a more complete answer to what indeed exacerbated the situation.
i’m pretty sure i’ve read that he definitely is a student.
i hope this guy is doing ok. is he saying that he has a medical condition close to the end of the video?
It could have been a lot worse if it were a desolate stretch of some LA highway with no one around.
This was a library for fucks sake! Not a shady bar, not a testosterone filled zone (sports arena) etc.
When did geeks and students become a threat and need tazering?!
Cops need their balls chopped. Too much testosterone is a bad thing.
Mr. K, your quick with deserves, dare I say it, a blog of its own. Ahem.
Wit. I meant wit. Clearly I do not deserve a blog of my own.
It could have been a lot worse if it were a desolate stretch of some LA highway with no one around.
Agreed. High handedness by people in uniforms should be fought back. I sympathize with their victims’ urge to even fight it violently.
What I find most chilling is the cop who keeps repeating “Stand Up, Stand Up.” I’m sure (or rather I hope) they are told in their training the physiological effect that a Taser would have on a victim. But he still keeps repeating his demand in a robotic manner. This is what actual torture would look like.
Are you serious?? He said this after he. was. tasered.
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Sure there can be another viewpoint, one siding with the authority inspite of what is seen and heard from the witnesses if thats what you like but the tactics used in the argument was speculative as I demonstrated. Insinuating, alleging things that were not said and bringing in fault on the victim by an unproven association, now that is worthy of contempt and there can be no dicsussion is such a case.
That is not a point, that could be your suspicion at the best. Its possible but can you bring that up as a defense for the officers actions even if proved?
Abu Ghraib of sorts in UCLA
Jesus Christ
1) When you get tazered, it hurts like a bitch, but as soon as the power goes off you regain your motor control. The fact that the guy was screaming while he was being tazered meant he didn’t even get a full charge.
2) The guy was asked repeatedly to stand up, he didn’t. (again, you’re not all loose after a tazer stun, you have full motor control within seconds)
The tazer is a far better option than pure physical brute force trying to get a guy out of the area. Why? The probability of getting hurt is greater when policemen will physically force you out of an area, vs you doing so under your own power. Think of it in this way, there were only two policemen no back up, a library full of students, its a college campus, and a guy is causing a scene. They weren’t punishing him, they were trying to get him to leave under his own power and not actually physically rough him up. The Patriot Act line may be cause for a standing ovation in this crowd, but it was pretty stupid and dumb. This had nothing to do with the patriot act or anything else. The guy escalated a scene in the library of all places, refused to show ID (when he had it on him) to student patrol (who are not armed), then with police, then everytime he said he’d go, he’d do another flop on the ground. Even for two guys, a dude playing ‘dead weight’ is difficult.
THE SCREAMING LOOKS FAR WORSE THAN IT REALLY IS. All police have to undergo tazer stuns everytime they qualify (or atleast once depending on department rules), specifically to understand the effects of it and how to employ it. Regardless of whatever emotional reaction one has here, in terms of the law, the police and student patrol tried to get the guy out and it escalated.
How do you not know the guy, who was talking back (while on the ground saying he’d get up, but wouldn’t), wasn’t showing physical movement? Can you see if the guy is resisting with force while on the ground, in between stuns, when the cop is asking ‘get up’? No. The video is grainy, a few statements have filtered to the press, others still haven’t (another messageboard has a student saying he witnessed it from beginning to end, and the police had very little option other than to tazer the guy out of the library. He was still agitating the police while on the ground saying he would get up but didn’t.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJsRHYutL2k
Here is a video of a cadet getting a FIVE second blast at a pretty high setting.
A tazer should NOT be drawn the same way as a gun. The whole idea of a tazer is to use NON LETHAL force. Drawing a gun is LETHAL force. Pepper Spray (not the piddly commercial shit, but police stuff) isn’t the best option. You know why? In the closed environment of the library, it WILL get into people’s lungs around and half that crowd will run away with irrriatated throats. I’ve been in the proximity of a pepper spray incident by police at a bar. Half the bar cleared out because the pepper spray got everywhere.
I can see how most of you feel this is a crime of unspeakable proportions, but your analysis on what police can/cannot do, their options, their methods, and rationale behind particular course of action is severely lacking.
And those suggesting/recommending the students to have taken action against police disappoint me. The idiot asking the cops for their badge number WHILE they were dealing with someone physically is the worst thing to do. They don’t have to do jack shit and if other students mobbed the police, they would have been in deep shit. Making a record and telling their version of the truth when the investigation occurs is the best thing one can do. The truth of what you saw, and giving said testimony in the courtroom is the best way to go. Cornering policemen only makes the situation far worse.
My recommendation? Let the investigation take its course and all eyewitness accounts (whom all seemed to have had better view of all the events) be recorded. Don’t get caught up in the emotion of the video, look at the law and see what it has to say. If policemen violated their own procedures or law, they should be punished. If not, well those of you who don’t like the law as it is then, get it changed.
But I’m sure someone will make an ad hominem attack on me for ‘favoring’ oppressive pigs, racist cops, or authority figures.
GujuDude: I think MassaleWallah’s link is work quoting here:
[Please click through to his link to see the appropriate links and quotes]
I’ve never seen a tazing before but this video was absolutely chilling and brought me flash-backs of when I witnessed some bullying in high-school and felt powerless to intervene.
THE SCREAMING LOOKS FAR WORSE THAN IT REALLY IS
Right!! You’d know, since you use one to brush your teeth every morning, isn’t it?
Well, just for those who don’t have a ‘control’ sample of a tazer hit (I posted this above, but it got screwed up), here it is again. FIVE seconds.
This lasts a few seconds. The questions in-between the tazer stuns (while none of us can really see the dude or his reactions) were far longer than that. Again, the law is written around what reasonable people would do. The dude trying to incite a riot (telling other students to join in), legally makes his case worse.
Like I said, the video is hazy, the statements are all over the place and most of them are lacking on substance, though emotionally charged.
I am not sure if Manju was ascribing the pigs and trailer trash remarks somehow to the said student. I think he was making a general point. And how are you so sure that’s not how this student feels about cops? I mean why wouldn’t he leave the library in the first place? Why the racket? Between the time he was asked to leave and he was first tasered, there was enough opportunity for him to leave the building on his own. This kid was sure angry about some things. I respect his right to rage but there’s a place and time for it. Maybe that’s why he didn’t win genuine sympathy of the students who probably would have rioted in his favor then. As far as the witness accounts are concerned I hope they are all taken into account. But it won’t be surprising if a few vociferous ones will always be in solidarity of their fellow student. Someone already made the point as to what kind of alternative police action wouldn’t be considered excessive in such a situation.
Manju’s criminal reference was in bad taste. But why would you pounce upon it to discredit his entire commenting history on this blog by saying ” he is a troll disguised as a reasonable person “. Do you call your various friends on this blog ‘trolls’? The ones who routinely call America, Republicans, Bush and the White Man criminal? You call Manju a “reactionary”. The truth is some of us moderates who comment here from time to time are so taken aback by the blatant leftist slant of this blog and most of it’s comments that we are forced to react fiercely and we do often come across, I admit even in our own eyes, being more to the right than we actually are.
PROTEST TOMORROW
Anyone in the LA Area, Come by UCLA at NOON tomorrow for a protest of this absolutely horrendous situation. That video was ridiculous, and I’m glad people took the video – citizen advocacy journalism at it’s finest.
Gujudude, I respect where you’re coming from but, like Abhi says in the post, don’t you think there is something seriously wrong if the reaction to non-violent civil-disobedience (“going limp”) is a violent pain-inducing act like a tazering ? I suspect there is a better way.
Also, please note that the tazer you’ve experienced might not be as advanced as the one the UCLA police used. And multiple times at that.
And nobody here is disagreeing with you that we should wait for the full investigation (if done thoroughly) to make final judgements.
Tsk, tsk, tsk. Poor dental care. You mean twice a day – morning and before sleeping.
Again, all the responses, understandably have been emotive.
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE. POPOS SUCK!!! DOWN WID DA SySTEM!!!!
Lets put it this way. Do you think, reverting back to what Police used to do (gun and a baton) would be a better application of force? Maybe everyone can fund 2 extra shifts of police (along with all their training, pension, and medical costs) to go and remove jackasses from libraries.
Hell, if the cops drew their guns (which they wouldn’t because you do so not to threaten, but to really use deadly force), half that crowd and the dude would have shut up. I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT.
But lets run down the options police has to remove someone breaking the law from the premisis (which they have a warrant/charter to do) for a NON LETHAL situation.
1) Convince the guy 2) Physical brute force 3) Pepper Spray 4) Taser
Option 1: Failed. The guy didn’t want to leave. Option 2: TWo police officers (student police aren’t allowed to get physical) and a resisting student. They don’t want to bruise his bones (nor get hurt themselves). Option 3: Indoors library, several students in close proximity. Pepper spray is a no-go. OPtion 4: tazer and convince him to move out under his own power.
ONLY way I see the kid getting around this one is if he can CONCLUSIVELY prove the tazers incapacitated him beyond getting up, physically or psychologically.
My last parting words before I take leave of this thread. Three things have brought about the most change in the world – universal sufferage, rule of law instituted from it, and science. Tazers, overall, have proven to be quite effective as a policing tool. There are always exceptions to the rule, but the overall effect of tazers has been better for society. So, before y’all go charging up because what you saw was scary as shit, stand back for a second and understand what tools WE give the police and how WE authorize its use.
Again, if the policemen broke STANDING OPERATION PROCEDURES (note: not recommendations), they are in violation of their duties. Else, they progressed as they were authorized. If you think a tazer is a brutal tool, get rid of it. You’ll be facing the same life/death and more beatings (not that LA has a poor history of it).
Just to clarify, that is not me in the youtube video 🙂 Its a white guy, I’m brown as an oreo biscuit.
I would respectfully disagree. People seem to have already made their minds up based upon an emotional response and have already considered the police to be the guilty party. Just adds to my general observation here that people in our community, here, (and overall) aren’t all too well informed on police or military tactics that we civilians authorize. An image is worth a thousand words, though it may never convey the depth of information needed to make the right/informed judgement.
Sorry Taz, I’m gonna recommend the opposite, or with a caveat. IF you think you know all the facts, IF you think you’re well informed from the video and initial media statements, IF you think you know how this applies to the law and have a solution in mind, go protest.
Ok, now I’m finally out.
While he might not have wanted to leave at the very first encounter…
From the Daily Bruin:
Seems like he was leaving according to the paper and based on that, your list doesn’t jive. Why not just walk with him instead of touching him and causing a possible confrontation?
The video is chilling. I echoe the setiments above supporting non-violent resistance and denouncing abuse of power. Lets hope this incident gets the full investigation it deserves
We should be aware, however, that the temptation to use a specicic incident to make general statements is dangerous. Surely we all recognize police brutality as a horrible problem in our society, bred by a combination of bigotry, laziness, and narcissism (fed, in turn, by excessive adulation). And we all know that the PATRIOT Act is being applied racistly.
I understand and share in the wanting to document the intersection of police brutality and PATRIOT-ic racism, but this incident may not be an instance of that. But maybe it is. we should first get the facts.
Gujudude: You forgot option 5) Call for backup (a subset of option 2, i suppose). Surely 4 cops (one for each limb?) could have taken him outside without the need for a taser ?
People on this thread and at the protest tomorrow are voicing their opinion that they’d rather not see something like this ever again; and that’s a good thing. Think of it as a strong expression of revulsion which will be taken into consideration in the final sober cost-benefit analysis.
to my 126, i want to add that, despite the specific facts, demonstrating to ensure that future events dont escalate the way they did here is fully appropriate.
Control sample?! Are you kidding me? That video makes as much sense as a ‘control’ sample as this one does, of what a person should be able to do with his/her bare hands.
Any actual facts/data/studies you’d like to cite to back such a wide ranging claim? And while you’re out there googling for some, perhaps you could spend a few minutes reading this?
Excellent links Masale.Wallah.
Here’s another one for GujuDude and company. Enjoy.
I heard about this late last night, and I wanted to add two things: 1) UCLA police is not the same as campus police; they make up the UCPD and are a valid police force (as opposed to a security force) 2) There is a rally for the student on Friday morning taking place around noon time in front of the Kerchoff steps.
Abhi:
read the sentance in it’s context…
the criminal i’m refering to are the cops, obviously since they are the only one’s being called “rednecks” and the ones vinay was referring to in his comments. we were talking about the cop’s motives.
It was this little Vinay boy who was throwing around the theory that discussing motives constituted subversion:
I looked up “troll” and i came up with this:
this sounds more like Kobayashi. i’m not in his league. give me some time.
You misunderstand me. I like clinton; i think the charges of sexual harassment are just as credible as the ones made against clarance thomas and and bob packwood (appropriate name, huh). i just wish he didn’t rape juanita broderick. it’s a sad day when fascists like me are the only one’s standing up for women’s rights.
GujuDude: very informative, dispassionate, and objective posts. jilted_manhood: thanks for the fairness.
so, you’re just a mini-troll (or mini-Kobayashi – to use your own example of a troll) now and aspiring for greater troll achievements?
a little bit of something, is better than a lot of nothing.
y’know, what abhi said, especially this…”you are often a troll disguised as a reasonable person (which I find to be the worst kind)” reminds me of something saurav at “pass the roti” said to me once. he called my defence of gays at the hands of muslim bigots to be “the worst kind of lying”. he thought i was beng disingenuous, as abhi seems to think.
it reminds me of this exchange. to which anna replied.
conservative thought is just not taken seriously in some quarters, despite being the world’s, or at least the US’s dominant ideology. but i really mean what i say and i’m not trying to be provocative…just maybe a liittle bit funny at times. it fact, i think i’m rather mainstream…unlike kobayashi who is much more an oscar wilde character but somehow accepted as genuine here.
Shameful,the whole incident! Brings me to tears and makes me ashamed to be in this place!, this whole planet!
Is it a citizen’s right to ask for name and badge number or is that just Hollywood fiction?
Well, that video was quite thought-provoking…..
It’s difficult to gauge what was really going on from the footage, although of course the “dialogue” can be heard very clearly.
I would cautiously agree with GujuDude’s comments above. I don’t know if anyone can really have an informed opinion without a thorough (and accurate) knowledge of what really happened, especially in light of the conflicting accounts. It’s probably best not to base one’s stance on conjecture and assumptions, whether it’s regarding the police or Tabatabainejad himself.
I like Mr Kobayashi a lot, and generally find him to be an extremely intelligent, insightful and sensitive person. And obviously very funny. I have been known to crack a joke or two myself from time to time on SM. However, I do get the impression that he is given a little more slack than usual because he knows some of the Mutineers offline, particularly in relation to his occasional use of different usernames when commenting (which is normally not allowed). I am also going to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he (or one of the Mutineers) was not the person behind that “JaiLam” post a little while ago, which — although faintly amusing — was an example of very bad timing indeed.
I missed this earlier, and I may be nit-picking, but I couldn’t help but cringe:
jilted_manhood:
See, this frustrates me because it reflects the notion that regulation and justice have to be violent. This cruelty-for-cruelty, blast-his-brains-out-that’ll-solve-everything attitude is so unproductive. Abhi would defend Manju if Manju were the guy getting tasered, and I would defend the cops’ rights to humane treatment – and I say this as someone who thinks policing bodies are inherently racist paramilitary terrorist organizations.
BTW Taz and other people organizing/attending the protest rally –
I don’t like much of what GujuDude has said about this incident, but I do agree on his point that y’all need to make sure you have your facts straight before you demonstrate today. As someone who has attended and organized many protests (and gotten roughed up, pepper-sprayed, tear-gased, arrested, and almost officially banned from the People’s Republic of China) and knows what UC organizing looks like, I stress that it’s for Mostafa’s and his supporters’ benefit that the organizers really, really do their homework before everybody goes out there. Make sure everyone is crystal clear on the legalities of the situation, because if you aren’t, you’re bound to get caught up in the moment and make claims and accusations that are false. Make sure you know what all the speakers are going to say. Make sure Mostafa would agree with any claims made about him. Just be careful. It can torpedo the PR for your side if you mess up on the facts; they’ll dismiss you as a bunch of race-baiting infantile leftists.
Incorrect. If anything he is one of the most consistent people here handle-wise.
He most certainly was not, nor was any of us.
Manju, No Von Mises had this to say about you a while back, and a lot of people would agree, including me. I don’t take you as a character seriously, but I do take your voice as a mainstream conservative seriously, and I appreciate its role here. Although… what’s with the hateration on Mr Kobayashi? He doesn’t come close to the definition of a troll because he’s never been inflammatory or inappropriate, and he doesn’t go off topic any more than you or anyone else. Besides, I think he likes you (though probably not in the Oscar Wilde kinda way).
He is given a little more slack because a lot of people think he’s absolutely right on (they even say so!), and because he’s pretty damn funny. And, well, you know, who doesn’t appreciate free comedy? And the different handles? I must have missed it (but please don’t link the evidence to prove it – this subject of Mr Kobayashi’s involvement on SM has been blown out of proportion at this point).
oops, sorry Siddhartha, I didn’t refresh to see that you had commented on it already.
those who are in LA should try to make the rally..
the force used was complete and utter overkill…
there is a great article here in the lancet about the use of taser gun
Effects of stun guns and tasers.
The Lancet, Volume 358, Issue 9283, Pages 687-688 R. Fish, L. Geddes
i’m on the article right now.. here it is some of it due to copyright issues 🙁
those barbaric a-holes. it makes me want to vomit. and when others wanted to help and get the ID’s of the campus police, for them be threatend to taser them too?
i remember studying at powell when i was at ucla… and if you got into the library before 10pm no ID’s were checked… so if i went at 8pm…and studied pass the time they started checking and i happened to forget, i was screwed…but i think this guy was frustrated because it is a dumb rule.. check id’s all the time.. so people will have them on all the time.. and it’s equality no matter what time you enter the library…
ah Shruti, you don’t know how much I love that term- it’s brought so much clarity to my jumbledness, not to mention less friends left, right, north, and south. This is how David Rieff must feel.
Libraries aren’t the place to taser folks. I think libraries are damn near sacred.
Shruti,
I was referring to him being given more slack by the Mutineers/moderators, not by the rest of us.
Yes he is, on both counts. I said so myself in my previous post.
Agreed 😉
That’s what happens when you’re publicly spotted out on a date with Richard Gere, “the world’s most famous Buddhist” (as someone on The Simpsons once called him).
Siddhartha,
I sincerely hope not. Some of the “courtesies” included in that uncalled-for little parody appeared to be quoted verbatim from things I usually make a point of saying as a form of politeness in my occasional offline emails to the Mutineers, but which I have never included in any of my posts here on SM. Since I think you’re a straightforward and trustworthy guy (and because Anna has spoken very highly of you previously on SM), I’ll take your word for it and assume that it was just an unfortunate coincidence.
i agree with jai singh… people should not be allowed to use different handles..and yes, there are those out there who have…(and no, i have not)..
…..unless they make it obvious that they’re the same person, eg. “Colonial Jai/Jai Singh/etc” and their handle is a reflection of the context of the subsequent post.
If there’s scope for masquerading as completely different commenters across multiple threads — and this does occasionally happen, including commenters who have behaved exactly as Abhi previously described (trolls pretending to be reasonable people) — then it should be a no-no.
Generally I think the moderators do a good job of jumping on such behaviour (and it’s completely understandable that they can’t keep an eye on SM 24/7), but occasionally people have fallen through the net and continued to treat this blog as their own personal playground. However, during the last few weeks I think Abhi & Co have obviously been very proactive in cleaning this place up and attempting to get things back on track.
abhi & company…
sounds like a band 😉
yes, they have been working diligently, vigilently, and thoroughly to keep this mutiny free from trolls.
kudos to them..and a big friday bowl of garlic hummus for all of them.. (who is bringing the pita ;))
breath mints for desert?
Manju, j’accuse!
I find you guilty of feeding the trolls.
Now, I know you’re reacting directly to my dig in comment #81, to which I can only say that your views on the subject (here and here) merited it. Or maybe they didn’t. What I have said, I have said. I wish I’d been more brutal, but it’s too late to correct the past now.
Enough with this, let’s get back to the real topic at hand: filthy leftist criminals and the police officers who delicately subdue them.
🙂 Credit goes to Siddhartha, who has obviously read more Lenin than I.