Sepia Friendster postergirl Jane of All Trades reads the BBC at the same time I do, because we’re both horrified at the latest development in the War on Terror:
A Muslim convert planned to detonate a dirty bomb and launch an attack on London’s Tube, a court has been told.
Former Hindu Dhiren Barot, 34, from London, plotted “massive explosions” in the US and UK and synchronised attacks.
I tripped over “former Hindu” as I was reading this and barely absorbed the appalling nature of Barot’s plans, which his lawyers argue he didn’t have the resources to carry out.
Barot, from Kingsbury in north-west London, described by prosecutors as “a member or close associate” of al-Qaeda is to be sentenced on Tuesday.
“The plan was to carry out massive explosions here and in the USA, the principal object being to kill hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people without warning,” prosecutor Edmund Lawson QC told Woolwich Crown Court
This tidbit is kinda interesting:
The BBC, The Times and the Associated Press news agency successfully challenged a judge’s ruling that had threatened to prevent reporting of details from the court hearing.
In order to cause the greatest amount of devastation possible, Barot wanted to blow up a subway train as it traveled in a tunnel under the Thames. These are the suspect’s own words regarding his plans:
“Imagine the chaos that would be caused if a powerful explosion were to rip through here [London] and actually rupture the river itself.
“That would cause pandemonium, what with the explosions, flooding, drowning etc that would occur.”
As for Amreeka, the IMF, the World Bank (what, no White House?), the NYSE and various bank headquarters were part of the accused’s plans. I will be all the more bitter about this truism tomorrow, after some deluded person in Nebraska votes red to foil terrorists who don’t give a shit about that state, since they prefer to target places where I live, like D.C. But hey– who cares? Let’s keep creating terrorists faster than we can kill them!
People who are guilty, even of conspiracy to commit crimes, should be punished. The evidence should be solid and beyond mere circumstance. This guy is clearly a nut job. This is hardly a great victory in the Global War on Terror. It’s also bad for immigrant Britain. Red Snapper, the things you say I said, I never said.
Unfortunately for the intelligence services, it is a case of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t (take threats seriously)”. Back in ’95 Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed planned Operation Bojinka , a wildly ambitious plan to down 11 airliners that was largely ignored by US Intelligence despite trial runs and extensive planning. Seemed like the ravings of some fanatics too. It took KSM 6 years to get it right. Maybe Barot should also be given 6 years to “get it right” ?
No. The BBC is selling papers by sensationalizing things without waiting for the facts. We are all on a hair trigger nowadays with respect to the “War on terror.” In most of these cases we find that there is nothing to it. Just today for example there was a study released:
I will not say the plan is a media concoction. But I do get the feeling that the plan was “more aspirational than operational” and does not deserve to be taken seriously. And the media hypes, not as part of some conspiracy, but cos that’s the nature of the beast. What’s new about that?
. The BBC is selling papers by sensationalizing things without waiting for the facts
the tabloid culture in the UK is different than in the USA. i mean, the american press isn’t great, but it is somewhat less sensationalist….
How do you know? How can you speak with so much authority? How is it clear? The crux of your argument is that because you think it is so, it is so. That’s not an argument, that’s just conjecture — conjecture in the face of a man pleading guilty in a British court, with a trail of evidence linking him to violent Islamist movements, as part of a wider trial that is to start next year.
Prosecuting a man who is involved in blowing people up (who has pleaded guilty and is involved with violent Islamists) is bad for immigrant Britain? Are you being serious? Of all the convoluted loopy logic and abject argument that is the worst I have ever come across. The deeds of violent extremists are bad for immigrant Britain as it is for the whole of Britain. Please, this kind of paranoia and conspiracy theorising gives the left a bad name. It is incorrigible of you to say that.
You have said these things. You have stated that this sentencing is the result of a government and media driven conspiracy and there is not a problem of violent extremists — despite the fact that they planned 9/11 in Hamburg, Germany, killed 200 people in Madrid, 55 people in London, and that they are active as we live and breathe today.
I’m dropping out of the discussion now…I think people have to face up that there is a problem, and it’s better to be inside the boat dealing with it and negating the zealots and those without perspective who use the problem as a reason to demonise all Muslims and mount an assault on multiculturalism and human rights, than to posit conspiracy theories and lose all credibility. I think that is an urgent need. If the left doesnt deal with this, maintaining the balance and being true to the problem, rather than react in a partisan fashion because of the rhetoric of the right, then we have problems.
Peace Preston.
…brown.
The BBC doesnt sell newspapers.
It all boils down to a knee jerk response to a man pleading guilty to conspiracy to murder as blaming the media. That is erroneous.
Wasn’t this guy in the news back then? Good time to be back in the news I guess (oh no! I am not suggesting a conspiracy theory).
Red Snapper,
Without belittling the danger from terrorist attacks, do you understand the use of fear as a tactic to achieve compliance from the masses for certain laws which infringe upon the rights of the people? Do you not think that in itself is a danger that we meed to watch out for? What do you say of reports which talk about this “terrorist plot” but make no commentary on the possibility of it happening? What exactly is that report trying to say and what is it achieving? Safety for the non-brown population?
As much as the conspiracy theories have gained prevalence by filling in the blanks around known facts, the accusation of calling every doubt as a conspiracy theory is getting tiring.
I thought the BBC bent over backwards to be as PC as they could…
Vikram, your link is five years old. The BBC has gone through quite a few changes since then. I don’t know about PC or sensationalism, and I’m not saying anything about this particular story, but my overall impression is that they’re no longer as thorough.
Being PC and being sensational are not mutually exclusive. By American standards the BBC is PC. However, in these times of dying traditional media, everyone has become sensationalist. Except NPR 🙂
Does anybody here remember when BBC used footage from Kosovo or some other place (showing tanks rolling on the streets) while doing a story on Kashmir? They did apologize and correct the story later on though.
What changes have they been through ? Here’s an article from a few weeks ago about the way things are run at the BBC these days.
Since we are talking about the BBC, here is a quote from BBC series Yes Minister
It’s kind of depressing that they probably do. Look what they did to Tony Blair 🙁
Sigh it’s just so funny watching the news play out around American mid term elections and in the lead up to the next presidential election. This guy gets caught, then Saddam was finally sentenced, but they’re saying it’ll take ages for his execution…
who’s betting that if they don’t find Osama they’ll plan Saddam’s hanging closer to the time Bush seeks re-election?
I don’t think we should confuse the reality of these attacks and their effects on people with the media spin around them, though. The London bombings were as real as 9/11. The only unreal thing about it is the way those deaths have been manipulated so that guys like this can keep the cycle going…
feel empathy for people living in big urban centres…
…and relief that some safe litle corners of the world are too unimportant, and uninvolved in the ‘war’ to be bombed.
Tash –
“who’s betting that if they don’t find Osama they’ll plan Saddam’s hanging closer to the time Bush seeks re-election?”
As much as he and the American comedian association may want to, I don’t believe Bush can run for a third term. Unless, Cheney and Rummy Inc. engineer a nuke strike on the mainland….then all bets are off…
With all due respect, no, the US does not influence the judicial system of the Brits. Such a position undermines the independence of the British judicial system and pisses on many that do their jobs as their system allows them to do.
Uhhh, Bush can’t get re-elected. He’s done in another 2 years.
Too true, I’d forgotten about that rule.
I’m guessing it doesn’t make much difference who Haliburton Inc. places as the face of the campaign, though.
Why the *%&$ did Al Gore only become interesting when he started wondering about the melting of the polar ice caps?!!
…sigh.
Just out of curiosity…Did this idiot change his religion to “Islam” to boost the propogandists/fear mongers theory about muslims <=> terrorists <=> muslims?? you know, just to add an extra twist to his catastrophic plans??
No one would have probably paid “as much” attention, if he still continued to be a Hindu…so to get maximum mileage, my ‘skeptical’ side thinks ‘conversion’ to Islam was part of the plan.., this guy is even more sinister than we make out to be. ( if anyone can check….the time frame, when he changed religions)
Bombs kill hundreds, but ‘fear’ ‘preception’ ‘labelling’ cause continued anguish to ‘millions’.
He wasn’t interesting enough when he invented the Internet and was the inspiration for the hero of Erich Segal’s “Love Story” ? Tough crowd…
I’m a law student and the system I’m studying is strongly based on the British common law system. I’d love to believe unwaveringly in the independence of the judiciary like I used to… I’m going to be a part of that system pretty much so wasn’t trying to hate on it at all to add to the hate that lawyers get…
but if it’s so independent (with unelected judges) then how did a House of Lords judge like Lord Denning get to make the remark that he could hardly see ‘an English person’ on juries anymore (referring to the number of South Asians on British juries in urban centres)
… that remark reveals much about how a group of essentially privileged men get to make decisions based on ‘precedent’ and ‘principles’ handed down by predecessors from the same social group for people who now form a diverse and multicultural society.
All I’m saying is that where I live all the judges literally went to about 4 different high schools and at least half of all the people in jail are of indigenous descent. The number goes up when you count other Polynesian people. One Algerian professor was kept in judicially approved solitary confinement for three years because he has a Mulsim name and was thought to be a ‘threat to national security.’ He now lives in a Catholic seminary and publishes poetry down the road from my university.
I love ideas like the rule of law and judicial impartiality, but the more I study Law the more I see that it’s social, political and deeply cultural. I hate that legal systems are being manipulated by political forces (the judge in the Iraqi court yelling at Saddam while sentencing him is an image I can’t get out of my head), but while I think it’s good to aim for the goal of true justice and fairness it’s also not good to bury your head in the sad when you know you’re not there yet.
This particular person deserved to be punished because of his attempted plans. I just fear that there are people who get increasingly caught in the crossfire between politics and law who may actually be innocent or have their human rights trampled upon as they’re faced with law and not justice.
tash:
i really shouldn’t be doing this, but you may enjoy taking a course on “critical legal studies” at school, if they offer one, or if you haven’t already.
for all your snark – the guy has been publicly attributed as being one of the political figures who got the policy support for the Internet in the early stages. maybe you’re just some techie gnome gibbering into his sleeve while wanking into the screen – so i will excuse you your dumbassery – but there is more to a technological achievement than circuits and wires. north america languishes behind europe and asia in cellphone technology because it couldnt get its act together and convince the industry to push a single standard. and if you havent read or seen the inconvenient truth – get out of your cubicle and do so. the man deserves respect for his ideas, for his elocution and for having the balls for pursuing his vision in spite of what must have been a crushing loss – it would have just been so easy to be written off – and heck, i am not even american.
Whoa… easy there on the hysterical hyperbolic harangue …
You forgot the “tubes” …
Sorry didn’t realize that you were on your knees worshipping (or performing other acts) on old Al.
Awww. I’m really glad you caught the scent of my feministing multiculturalisting postmodernisting bent from all the way over here 😉
I know about Critical Legal Studies, Manju, I’m already over on the dark side 🙂 but thanks for thinking of me.
Oh, Vikram, that was Monica and Bill, remember?? 😉 Of all the people to get the personal morality of Democrats mixed up, you woulda been last on my list.
Be interesting to see if thsoe idol-worshipping, illegal-substance consuming sodomites win big in the mid term elections, oops should I have said erections Vikram, missed a good political jab there didn’t I…
Feel free to say that next time you look in the mirror 😉 Muahahahahahaha
BTW, when one reads the complete story on the link with the “dip the Muslims in pig’s blood/ wrap them in pig’s skin”, it pretty much debunks it. It’s an Urban Legend, albeit one that keeps poking its head up from time to time. Maybe the same people made it up who made up the Saudi sponsored rumor that Jews make their sweets with the blood of Christian and Muslim children…
Maybe his punishment should be Ancient- Greek- Hades inspired: 72 Virgins each holding the Kama Sutra and they are all 5 steps away from him but everytime he takes one step towards them, they move one step away from him!
eh…your observation skills are lacking… he said that he admired Al’s balls… I just apologized for interrupting his worship of Gore’s gonads.
Why don’t to to that oh-so-earnest teenage idealism of yours passing your classes, since you are rather clueless. Come back when you are all grown up.. 😉
hey, he didn’t inhale. there was a message, but this story has no happy ending.
Easy with the personal attacks and vulgar sideswipes, folks, please.
…chill brown, chill….
Vikram, behave! You dont want to scare of the young people, we need the idealism of the young, if for nothing else, just so we could laugh at how naive we use to be. Just got back from happy hour, some people in DC are already celebrating, and no one has voted as yet. Pervs! I hate lawyers that become politicians, devil spawn, I know the law and I can manipulate it! Hmmpphh. I am going to go drink some waterÂ… everything will be worse tomorrow.
“No one would have probably paid “as much” attention, if he still continued to be a Hindu…so to get maximum mileage, my ‘skeptical’ side thinks ‘conversion’ to Islam was part of the plan.., this guy is even more sinister than we make out to be. ( if anyone can check….the time frame, when he changed religions)”
Suraj, this is no doubt one of the dumber things I’ve read in a while.
That narrows the alternatives…may be radicalization happened after embracing Islam?
I’m not following your logic here.
A country’s judiciary can morph into whatever the people of that country make of it. My comment was in response to the following:
You skirted this by pointing/diverting the discussion to a group of privileged men theory with respect to the individual countries, which has some merit as any power structure is somewhat nepotistic or incestuous, but the core of my disagreement was throwing around the assertion that the Republican Party has reach into the ‘inner depths’ of the British judicial system, police, law courts, etc, to which you sadly agreed to. The US has influence, though, I would limit that to Tony Blair’s government, not the ‘inner depths’ of the judicial system.
It is quite a different thing to say the US-UK have a tight relationship, then using that idea to spin information into how this is some type of Republic conspiracy where they have strings they can pull in the judiciary. And ‘they’ didn’t do anything to Tony Blair. Blair made the decisions himself and was well within his power to make whatever choice he wanted. Seriously, if the Bush government held all those insidious strings everywhere with such control/influence, ‘they’ would have been far more effective in enforcing their policies, particularly in the middle east, which by all accounts has not transpired as they wanted.
So, whatever else you say, I don’t know much about the local politics with respect the the intra community relations (Desis, White people, whatever). Many of those issues bridge nations/race/ethnicities/religions, whatever.
I’m talking about US influence/meddling with the British judiciary. I see no evidence (or have not seen any, can you provide such information?)
Crap. I am so disappointed that someone beat me to the Borat jokes.
I’m also surprised that anyone took this numbnuts sumbitch seriously. For all the shivers the imagery may have sent up your spine, it’s one thing to “plan an attack,” and quite another to actually pull it off. Of course now that he’s in custody, he’s “the most senior al Quaeda operative ever arrested since yesterday” or however they put it, but let’s all contain ourselves, shall we? Remember: when you snark at your fellow mutineers, the terrorists are winning.
Doesn’t anyone else see an uncanny resemblance to Daily Show correspondent Aasif Mandvi? (P.S. He is a brownz you know. I’m surprised that he hasn’t been covered on this site yet.)
Yeah, methinks it’s time to chill too.
This could go on in a ‘ooh show me the evidence’ kinda fashion or we could just agree to disagree, I respect your opinion GujuDude even if you don’t respect mine all is well as long as the Borat jokes are flowing and the beautiful Diwali song by Steve Carell keeps popping up in me head…
‘If you’re Indian and you like chapattaaaaay…come on celebrate Deeewolllay…’
PS Vikram in the middle of exam study so thanks a million for the you’re gonna fail vibes… I would come back when I’m all grown up but I fear I’d be much less fun by then 🙂 Someone’s gotta be the idealist, and I’d rather be seeing rainbows and sunshine than focussing on Gore’s gonads…
but to each their own 🙂
and yeah I can’t believe that it’s idiots like the brown Jimmy Smits person in the picture who could hold us all to ransom. Freaky…
Dhiren Barot is not quite a “BBCD” — he was born in India. However, he grew up in the UK and converted to Islam during his 20s.
I posted a Times article about him in the News tab yesterday. Here it is for those who missed it.
And the guy’s a Gujju too, which makes this all the more curious in terms of what the hell led him to this path. The Gujarati community in Britain, especially the 2nd-Generation, isn’t exactly famous for being saturated with political & religious extremists.
I guess he fell into some very bad company.
Vinay, all your the answers to your questions are contained in my posts, please read them carefully.
There have been some outrageous statements made on this thread, one of them being that prosecuting a man for conspiracy to commit murder is an affront to ‘immigrants in Britain’. This kind of logic is so warped as to be beyond my understanding as to how anyone can hold it — and with friends like this, Muslims and other ‘browns’ in Britain do not need enemies, what with people taking partisan affront at the prosecution of individuals for terrorist offences.
He has been sentenced to life imprisonment
Read the details in the Guardian report above. There are links to the police documents at the bottom of the page.
Red Snapper,
Not everybody on this board who’s sounding sceptical is suggesting that terrorist attacks are a media concoction. What some are suggesting is that mere minnows arrested by anti-terrorism task-forces in the U.K. have been built up into big fishes and/or portrayed as the new faces of Evil by the U.K. press… probably with a little government “encouragement”. Why are you so keen to attack people who are merely sounding this note of caution ? As for the question implied by your interlocuters — i.e. is Dhiren Barot an uber-terrorist or loser-cum-fall-guy — this might be a valid doubt. Among the causes for this type of doubt: did you, or anyone else on this thread, ever tune in to this very disturbing episode of “This American Life” (NPR) about a pathetic loser named Lakhani who was literally foisted with a Stinger missile by U.S. Intelligence, and then given a life sentence after a trial where the jury nearly deadlocked ?
Red Snapper, how about a little intellectual honesty? No one has said the things you claim. You disagree with people, fine. But stick to what people actually said, not your willful misreading of it.
Oops, Red Snapper, to have said “… so keen to attack people…?” in my comment above was perhaps a wrong characterisation your viewpoint. Sorry! But I sincerely wish you’d be more mindful of how governments — including Western democracies — manufacture consensus. In case you are, it does not come across too clearly in your posts.
This isn’t about respecting your opinion or not, it is merely a discussion of something you’ve put forward and I disagree with it. I find it interesting that people throw around such assertions, while popular, may have very little ground to stand on. If you felt I was making a personal attack, that was not my intention or goal. Opinions differ and I was asking you to defend/rebutt your position. I just want to know how you seriously agreed with the conclusion that the Republican Party, GWB and his merry band have influence that manipulates the British judicial system. There must be some objective set of information you’ve based your opinion on.
If you don’t feel my inquiry has merit, so be it. To each their own. Peace be with you.
Yes GB you misread my position, thanks for correcting yourself.
Preston, respectfully, I have not misread a single thing you have said. Claiming that prosecuting an individual for planning terrorist offences is bad for ‘immigrant Britain’ is an egregious statement and demands to be refuted.
Red Snapper,
First of all let me tell you that I agree with most of your position about prosecuting this guy and not taking terrorist threat lightly. And with due respect I re-read every one of your posts and I find no answer to my questions. So please try to be a little honest, you don’t have to answer them but don’t pretend that you did.
Safety for the British population as a whole. Whether they are “non-brown” or not is irrelevant.
Looks like Zakir Naik is working his magic