Sepia Friendster postergirl Jane of All Trades reads the BBC at the same time I do, because we’re both horrified at the latest development in the War on Terror:
A Muslim convert planned to detonate a dirty bomb and launch an attack on London’s Tube, a court has been told.
Former Hindu Dhiren Barot, 34, from London, plotted “massive explosions” in the US and UK and synchronised attacks.
I tripped over “former Hindu” as I was reading this and barely absorbed the appalling nature of Barot’s plans, which his lawyers argue he didn’t have the resources to carry out.
Barot, from Kingsbury in north-west London, described by prosecutors as “a member or close associate” of al-Qaeda is to be sentenced on Tuesday.
“The plan was to carry out massive explosions here and in the USA, the principal object being to kill hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people without warning,” prosecutor Edmund Lawson QC told Woolwich Crown Court
This tidbit is kinda interesting:
The BBC, The Times and the Associated Press news agency successfully challenged a judge’s ruling that had threatened to prevent reporting of details from the court hearing.
In order to cause the greatest amount of devastation possible, Barot wanted to blow up a subway train as it traveled in a tunnel under the Thames. These are the suspect’s own words regarding his plans:
“Imagine the chaos that would be caused if a powerful explosion were to rip through here [London] and actually rupture the river itself.
“That would cause pandemonium, what with the explosions, flooding, drowning etc that would occur.”
As for Amreeka, the IMF, the World Bank (what, no White House?), the NYSE and various bank headquarters were part of the accused’s plans. I will be all the more bitter about this truism tomorrow, after some deluded person in Nebraska votes red to foil terrorists who don’t give a shit about that state, since they prefer to target places where I live, like D.C. But hey– who cares? Let’s keep creating terrorists faster than we can kill them!
Anybody know why was barot pissed? And why do (some) muslim converts feel righteous or morally enabled about inflicting violence?
As for Borat, the movie may be very funny, but it struck me the very first time I saw its promo that bigots and ignorant idiots anywhere will feel ok to go Borat on you, as it came out immediately in the Nirva post a couple of days ago. Throw in an offensive comment, and back it up with ‘relax baby/dude! haven’t you seen borat?’!!
From the many promos, the movie promises to be as offensive to kazakhs as funny to everyone else. Not comfortable with the idea of extreme ridicule of one minority for comedy needs of all others. I don’t know if many Americans would be equally comfortable if there were to be a similar movie from the Kazakh perspective. I can imagine Springer-stuff getting strong play in it along with other fringe weirdness…
GujuDude I believe in it the same way I seriously believe that the wars in Iraq and Aghanistan were primarily about oil and economic resources, and the same way I believe that the USA’s foreign policies have had a profound impact on various aspects of life all around the world. I’m not saying my ‘objective sources’ wouldn’t be tenuous links that may not be straightforward enough to satisfy you, but I’m just saying that in the UK some of the appointments (not all) to the judicary are political appointments, and the USA has certainly influenced UK foreign and defence policies in recent years. The law is political and social and does not always equate to justice.
Any legal system is a creature of its political and social times, and while people strive for impartiality, there are times when the system bends to political pressure. I’ve been helping on a case where someone was unlawfully detained for the first time in NZ because he was suspected of being a terrorist. Do I have objective evidence that judges were under political pressure to keep him in solitary confinement? Do I have objective statistics that his Muslim name and brown face where what kept him behind bars? No.
But do I believe that his imprisonment was a result of those factors?
Hell yeah.
And that is where we disagree. Much respect to pure objective facts but I believe they don’t always suffice in the real world whereas you do. That’s all 🙂
Pure objective facts are great, I’m not that myopic enough to assume the world will crank out the perfect numbers for me. One has to look at things in multiple angles, get the right data, and see if correlations exist, but there is some information that would lead one to believe in a theory to give it some credibility before being really tested out. What you’re telling me is you have a theory – an idea that the US administration, when it comes to terrorism issues, has direct active influence in the deepest reaches of the anglosphere but have zero information linking those events beyond their position on the political spectrum in relation to your beliefs.
Let me put this forward: What if the events you are seeing are not influenced by active US influence in those countries, but rather events that people in the anglosphere have observed within the US and come to similar conclusions independent of US interference? You make it sound as if American Republicans are the only one to hold certain beliefs and those who make similar decisions in different allied states are doing so at US direction, not because they have the same insecurities driving their decisions as a result of those common circumstances.
What you’ve put forward is quite loose and information can be interpreted in wildly different ways. As an American, it becomes quite tiresome when everything and anything (even it it is similar to what happens in the US) gets blamed on US influence while the local folks who are actually in the decision loop with responsibility for said decisions are given a ‘pass’. Those people may harbor the same beliefs independent of any American ‘arm twisting’. Events in the United States may inspire people to take analogous actions and that is an American influence. But that is passive, not an active reach of a group of men sitting in Washington. I agree that political pressure has influence in the legal system. The legal system is a direct product of politics. Laws in liberal representative republics are primarily created by the people and their reps.
The core of my disagreement with you isn’t that the objective facts don’t exist (they may, I don’t know, thats why I asked you if you hand ANY, even a shred), yet you believe in something. It is that you’ve already concluded what the reason is (Republican parties active influence into the depths of whatever justice systems) and you’ve molded information to fit the forgone conclusion. Politically many nations are faced with the same issues confronting them. Citizens of those countries have tough decisions to make and they look around and may adopt things, may not. The choices may be far more independent ( I think XYZ is correct and a good solution) rather than forced into (XYZ has manipulated/Brainwashed us into a decision) than people give credit for.
I won’t push this any further because I think I’ve made all the points I wish to cover in all my comments on this thread. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.
Thanks for your comments, I can see what you’re saying but I am not anti-American and empathise that it gets ‘tiresome’ when US influence gets blamed for everything from global warming to obesity.
I do think that blaming the US has been a convenient way for other western countries (including the one I live in) to avoid responsibility for unethical decisions they make and that is unfair on the US.
However I think that in the area that the post was about (individuals being arrested for terrorism or suspected terrorism) – despite the fact that the particular person in the post deserved to be criminally liable for his actions – the US had led the way in creating laws and enforcing policies which denigrate individual human rights.
And as the world’s most powerful country its actions will always influence other nations. British political and legal systems don’t blindly follow the US, but influences, passive or active, are strongly present. I don’t think they are things you can quantify into XYZ…
Would ordinary Americans wish to interfere with the British legal system? No. But American politicians (Republicans or Democrats) have a strong and continuing tradition of influencing the general policy trends in other countries, which then forms the backdrop in which laws are made.
Was a very good discussion though, and I can fully see your point. I believe that arm twisting takes many different forms, from free trade agreements to post-war construction deals to control of economically rich resources, and while other western countries are as much to blame for being a part of such things as the US government, I do think that the administration shares its half of the story.
Red Snapper,
I did not quite say that I misread your position. I merely said that my calling your posts ATTACKS on your interlocutors was a mischaracterisation. I still disagree with your rhetorical strategy. By “correcting” myself I am simply trying to be rigorous, but my objection of #93 still stands: by making the statement: “I have problem taking it seriously when you state that terrorist attacks are a media concoction,” you attribute to people statements that they’ve never made. Don’t you think you must try to be rigorous about how you gloss other people’s thoughts?
Anybody else see the resemblance to Jimmy Smits? Maybe all brown people really do look alike …
Hey, don’t diss Jimmy Smits like that (he’s a classy actor)! This guy looks like someone I’ve seen before, but I’m not sure where- very odd.
I have not heard of many Hindus converting to Islam in US. Perhaps it is more common in UK?
And the guy’s a Gujju too, which makes this all the more curious in terms of what the hell led him to this path. The Gujarati community in Britain, especially the 2nd-Generation, isn’t exactly famous for being saturated with political & religious extremists.
I guess he fell into some very bad company.
These extremists (like most people of the world) want a place to belong. When they don’t fit easily w/ those around them, they don’t turn to drugs, alcohol, or promiscuity, they (unfortunately for us) turn to fanaticism. I think more needs to be done about intervention, so other young guys don’t succumb to this crap!
Ahmed Zaoui should be deported back to Algeria… would save the NZ tax payer some money.
Awww. Nice that you could say that to my face, Vikram…
Do you want to say that to his 7 year old’s son face, the son who’s in hiding with his mother and other siblings and who has nightmares about what’s happened to his Dad?
Do you want to tell it to his wife, who struggles to feed her family and relies on the kindness of NZ taxpayers and other strangers who think that saving lives might just be more important than saving a few dollars?
Do you want to visit a poetry reading or a lecture on religious toleration that Mr Zaoui might be giving and tell it directly to the man’s face?
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Emma,
No, it’s not common at all — that’s the whole point. Most British converts to Islam seem to be white or black.
GB, when people make statements about how the prosecution of this individual was as the result of malign Republican influence in the British judicial system, that it is the result of a voracious media hyping up the case, that is not only factually incorrect, but my statement is an accurate description of attitudes and opinion expressed.
Vinay
I assumed you would be able to read my posts carefully and see that your questions were answered. However I will quote myself here for you to concentrate on:
Further, one thing has been bugging me about your questions. The final one:
The report is not trying to say anything – it is reporting an important news item. But your last question regarding the ‘safety for the non-brown population’ is really spectacular.
My opinions on the need for people on the left to take ownership and not be in denial of the problem stand — the knee jerk reaction of blaming the messenger needs to be corrected. But this whole ‘non brown population’ thing I find a squalid/troubling conjecture. Unless you know of any explosives that have been developed that only target the non brown population, you should remember that in London the dead and maimed were a reflection of the multicultural population of the city. A nineteen year old Bengali girl from east London was sitting next to the bomber on the bus, on her way to work, and they could only identify her by her teeth, there was nothing else intact left of her body. Placing the news reporting of a violent extremist being convicted of plotting to carry out terrorist attacks in a narrative of ‘big bad white bogeyman’ deliberately persecuting ‘browns’, that reporting this news item amounts to a racistly coded pandering to the ‘non brown populations’ prejudices is egregious and demonstrably false. Something about it, given the nature of the menace and the reality of the nature of the threat to everyone, and racially objectifying the victims (potential and real) in this way makes it seem particularly disconcerting to read.
If the son is in hiding, how do you know what his nightmares are ? Just curious. Telepathy ?
Guess none of the $2.4 million made it to her… Didn’t realize that was a “few dollars”.
So NZ spends millions of dollars on a bad poet ? No to the former, sure to the second. Sorry I cannot say it in verse to him.
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-The nightmares are from an interview.
-That money is largely spent on litigation costs, genius.
-I’m guessing his verse just might be better than yours.
This is all I’m gonna say, because…
Oh…THAT says it all.
What about Zaoui’s conviction on terrorism charges in Belgium & France ? And his deportation from Switzerland ? This in addition to the charges against him in Algeria. Are you claiming that all 4 countries law enforcement agencies and Interpol are wrong ? Do you have a refutation of their charges ?
Ah, my mistake, we are talking of lawyers here. Cold cash only… no starry eyed pro-bono workers. 🙂
Sure it should be… for the price it is costing NZ. Have you worked out the price/word ?