Sunday marks the 10 year anniversary of the overturning of Proposition 209 in California. Thursday, here at UCLA students of all colors got together in the morning for a funeral procession for the Death of Diversity. Students dressed in black staged a silent “walk-in” by walking into law classes and standing in silence, in an effort to depict what a classroom should look like if it were representative of the population of CA. There were over 50% minorities enrolled in the law school in 1995, the year before Prop 209 took place, far more than there have been since that year. 
Ten years ago this Sunday, California voters passed Proposition 209, which banned the use of race, ethnicity, color, gender or national origin as a factor in hiring and admissions in public institutions….Since then UCLA has seen a substantial drop in the number of black, Latino, Chicano/a and Native American students who are admitted.Out of the 4,422 students in UCLA’s freshman class of 2006, 100 are black. The low enrollment numbers have incited criticism from the UCLA community as well as national media outlets…Alina Ball [in the UCLA Law School Class of ’08] …found herself to be the only black female student, and one of nine black students total, in her class of more than 300. [daily bruin]
At UCLA, Johnson and other speakers noted that African American, Latino and Native American students continue to be underrepresented at UCLA and other UC campuses, with their numbers at the schools well below their proportions in the state’s population. The numbers plummeted the year after the ban took effect, and although they have recovered since then for the UC system as a whole, they have remained low at its most competitive campuses, including UCLA and UC Berkeley. [la times]
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p>But what does this mean for desis? South Asian Americans were out at the rally in full force, with members of the South Asian Law Student Association (SALSA) and Muslim Student Association (MSA) making an appearance. If the law school were to directly reflect the 1.24% [p.48] South Asian American population that we have in California, that would mean of the 340 law students in the 2008 class, there should be at least 4 desis in the entering class. I’m not sure about the exact stats, but I believe last year’s class had 13 South Asians. To further complicate the matter in trying to get stats on how many South Asian Americans are in the UC system, as far as categorization in the UC system is concerned, ‘Pakistani’ and ‘East Indian’ are lumped in with ‘Other.’
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p>Last month, the satirical article written by Jed Levine at the UCLA Bruin caused some ruckus in the Asian American blogosphere…His main gripe? There are too many Asian Americans on UCLA’s campus and their numbers on campus should be limited to make room for other ethnicities…
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Yes, white people are an underrepresented minority here at UCLA; while they make up 44 percent of the California population, white students only constitute 34 percent of UCLA’s student population….Asian-Americans, on the other hand, make up only 12 percent of the state of California and 38 percent of UCLA students.I agree with the chair of MEChA that the UC Regents are using unfair means to admit UC students. Using grades and test scores as a measure of academic success is clearly just a way to show preference to Asian-American students, who are better at both, and thus promote the status quo.
By keeping the Asian-American student numbers under control and more accurate to their representation in California, we can free up 26 percent of the student body for members of underrepresented groups.
I hear some liberal arts colleges accept head shots from applicants, and I think a similar program at UCLA would be monumentally successful at helping us weed out the young Maos and Kim Jongs from potential Mandelas, Lincolns and Estefans. [daily bruin]
Sadly, this opinion of Asian Americans taking the seats of other underrepresented groups is not just Levine’s, but one heard in the murmurs at yesterday’s rally from some Latinas standing in the crowd behind me. I was offended at first — weren’t we here at the rally standing in solidarity together as a people of color fighting for equity? Was this just an issue to pit Blacks and Latinos against the Asians and South Asians? But in retrospect I had to question — Do desis even care about affirmative action? Though we had turned out it great numbers at the rally yesterday, I couldn’t help but wonder: if we as Asian American are currently being overly represented in the UC system, then does the reversal of proposition 209 even matter to us, or even worse, will it be detrimental to our enrollment? Is this an issue that needs to have South Asian American representation?
Cuz only Rich/White/Straight/Male seats should be taken.
!
I want to comment now, but I’ll save my take for later…
🙂 This post has nothing to do with Affirmative Action, the term South Asian is almost proverbial now; you have milked it dry. Time to switch gears.
over-and-out //
I’m pretty sure Jed Levine’s piece was satire.
This brings me back to the idea of what makes an one an Asian American. Levine mentions Mao and Kim Jong but not Jawaharlal or Mohandas.
usa is usa because it operates on a strict merit based manner
this applies for college admissions,jobs,sports, whatever
they aim and get the best and brightest at whatever they do
it just so happens that in the academic realm, the majority of the people are immigrant asians – the white boy who wrote that article can say whatever he says, but usa is number 1 in the world because of its asian population
there is a deeper issue that needs to be addressed when considering the low number of latino and black admissions in UC system – you cannot help them by just using affirmative action to admit them to colleges
the simple reason why usa is number 1 is because they pass things like proposition 209
india is currently going through debate on quotas – it can learn a thing or two form usa
I’m pretty sure Jed Levine’s piece was satire.
🙂 yes.
If the law school were to directly reflect the 10.3% [p.46] South Asian American population that we have in California, that would be the of the 340 law students in the 2008 class, that means there should be at least 35 desis in the entering class. I’m not sure about the exact stats, but I believe last year’s class only had 13 South Asians.
i think you made a mistake here (typo). from page 48:
12% of the population is asian. on that page they have breakdowns of the percentage of asian indians, sri lankans, pakistanis, bangladeshis of this 12%, doing the math i get that 1.24% of california’s population is brown, not 10.3%. with the numbers above re: law school, 3.8% of incoming are brown, so there is overrepresentation (though the slightly younger age profile of asian indians should mitigate this).
Last month, the satirical article written by Jed Levine at the UCLA Bruin caused some ruckus in the Asian American blogosphere…His main gripe? There are too many Asian Americans on UCLA’s campus and their numbers on campus should be limited to make room for other ethnicities…
That’s what a lot of people thought at first, but if you read the article carefully, it’s actually a satire; he’s actually attacking the Black and Latino students who he feels want special preferences/affirmative action by sarcastically saying that Asian Americans weaseled there way into UCLA because of their merit, instead of affirmative action.
Do desis even care about affirmative action?
As far as I’ve been able to tell, at least among people my age (mid 20s) and younger, they generally don’t care about it much or are against it; those who support affirmative action (which I generally do) seem to be in the minority.
Thats an outrageously false statistic. Do you really think there are more than 3 million desis in California??
I’m going to comment anyway to say that NOT taking race into account is part of the reason why there aren’t many south asian students in the law school at UCLA. If desis don’t care about AA now, they really should start to.
Otherwise entrance into higher education becomes a numbers game both with regard to test scores and gpa(which I personally think is mostly fair) and population size (not fair). A south asian student who has great scores, ECs, and a great gpa should not get lost in the shuffle because there are 10 applicants with similar stats who all happen to be east asian.
They are overrepresented among college professors, engineers and technology workers. Between 10 percent and 12 percent of all medical-school students are Indians, according to the American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, the biggest physicians’ group in the nation after the American Medical Association.
cite. this is probably an overestimate, but, you’ve all looked at facebooks or what not from your friends in med school right? browns (indians) are WAY overrepresented in medical schools.
I’m going to comment anyway to say that NOT taking race into account is part of the reason why there aren’t many south asian students in the law school at UCLA. If desis don’t care about AA now, they really should start to.
taz was wrong about the numbers. your argument makes more sense for southeast asians, who do complain about being lumped with other asians (though less vietnamese, who are doing better than the hmong).
this is like saying blacks are overrepresented in basketball,nfl, or american sports in general
the only this is, if you said, you would be considered a racist
asians are still a minority , quit undermining them by repeatedly saying overrepresented, while they are just doing what they are good at
The Opportunity Costs of Affirmative Action: The study, described in an article published in the June issue of Social Science Quarterly, also found that eliminating affirmative action would significantly raise the number of Asian-American students, while having little effect on white students.
asian american students are perceived as over-achieving freaks by many admissions boards, who are looking for “well rounded” students of “good character.” we know what that means 🙂
Ha!
Thanks Razib- totally typo (and considering that of 13% Cali are Asian Americans I should have caught that sooner.)
from dan golden’s the price of admission: “these Asian kids are all alike — strong scores and grades, science and music, but I can’t really tell them apart.” (admissions officer) here golden is interviewed by a public radio host (white, robin young), and she is surprised at the extent of discrimation against asians in admissions. she assumed that the overrepresentation of asians was because of “international students.” 🙂
now, for real, has anyone who went to an elite school experienced a white individual of sub-par academic performance dismiss their admission because “they are a minority” (you know, all minorities are alike!)? i’ve heard of this from many people. the inverse of white skin privilege, the stigma of needing special standards…. (except when you’re colored and you’re treated like a SAT feak).
Two things: If we want to play statistics in this manner, you might want to consider how many “south asian” or even “asian american” students there are in ALL fields rather than just law. If we take the percentage of people who are of Asian descent PLUS those from pacific islander descent thats about 12.5%. We definitely make up more than our share in certain disciplines that are currently popular in the community. the point I am trying to make is that sure our representation is a bit lower in law schools when reflected against the population but I’m sure its also a bit higher elsewhere. I don’t think we can just make this a seats game. Who are we taking them from and where are they going?
Personally I’d love to see a meritocratic system bermuda triangle but you’re fooling yourself if you think this is one. I will give two very short examples. One : Try taking a testmasters or kaplan class on the LSAT, GRE, SAT or any other standardized exam. A thousand plus dollars later try imagining how well you would have done without that class. Two: Try imagining going to school in a town without a bookstore or movie theater and a waning public library. A school that doesnt allow afterschool activities except for quizbowl and detention for fear of encouraging loitering and possibly violence. If you don’t believe it exists try Helena, AR. How far will a kid from here get without a couple of superbly inspired, overworked teachers? How is it meritocratic?
That they don’t want a university full of students who spend friday and saturday night at the library? Or maybe they don’t want all their students to be pre-med/law?
It’s great that asians score well on tests and all that… And I am well aware of the fact that not every asian student goes into those career paths. Trust me, I know this. But there are many good reasons for why a university would want not just well-rounded individuals, but well-rounded student bodies. Especially when funding (especially for private universities) relies so heavily on maintaining a variety of different academic and non-academic programs.
And honestly, a high gpa and test-score starts to look really unimpressive when its not coupled with an interesting or challenging background.
of course political active desis will protest rollback of affirmative action. asian american activists did during the 90s even though repeal of racial considerations increased their numbers. the general trend is that the unis just kick out the more marginal asian american students, so, the super-achievers know they are safe. this is the handicap principle, but adding disadvantages to your group in the game you show what a stellar individual you are to even make it through the more stringent cordon. it is a display of liberal bonafides to be in favor of diversity even when it hurts your own group. but group is the major issue here: i will make the prediction that asian american activists who support diversity policies as they are generally practiced (e.g., higher standards for asian americans) aren’t marginal students from families who can barely afford to send them to school, they are the best and the brightest and most secure who have no worries. you know you’ve made it 🙂
The numbers are wrong because the study she cites says that 10.3% of the ASIAN population of California is South Asian. Not the TOTAL population of CA.
Especially when funding (especially for private universities) relies so heavily on maintaining a variety of different academic and non-academic programs.
1) most sports programs lose money actually 2) the sports programs which are marginal tend to be where they place very wealthy kids 3) yes, funding is important, rich kids parents donate a lot, and this tends to be old money (something asian americans are not)
That they don’t want a university full of students who spend friday and saturday night at the library? Or maybe they don’t want all their students to be pre-med/law?
this is a fair point. nevertheless, from the data i’ve seen the extent of discrimination goes further than is necessary.
And honestly, a high gpa and test-score starts to look really unimpressive when its not coupled with an interesting or challenging background.
i don’t know anyone who would apply to elite schools without extracirriculars. you saw the part about music?
there is some truth to the contention that asian americans have parents who bring a ‘cram school’ mentality to the game. but, only some. these are american kids who do sports and are active in music.
but in any case. it’s fine to discriminate, i’m not sweating it, one the upsides that even idiot asian americans are perceived to be brains. but, people should be honest about it. the assertion above by the white talk show hostess is symptomatic (“i thought they were international students”). there are different kinds of minorities with different experiences. it is fine by me if admissions boards discriminate against middle class asian american applications in favor of hyper-wealthy white jocks and poor black & latino kids*, but everyone should know what’s going on so we have our victim-meters properly calibrated.
Oh Razib. 🙂
First, you make an assumption here that, all achievers spend friday nights in the library. I guess you do know that that is not true. Also, for many who do, what is wrong with that? That it is not cool? Or is friday night some kind of national ritual all Americans must participate in? Frankly, I did my share of the usual friday night partying when I first landed in the US, but found it a largely vapid exercise. I am certainly through with that now.
I have problems with terms like “interesting or challenging background” because they are extremely subjective. Razib pointed out something similar in #13.
Ok, I have to go now, to spend my saturday evening in the library. I can see this is going to be one long thread 😀 .
recent harvard grad matt yglesis, and liberal pundit, knows the score.
The New Jews:
What tends to get less attention is the extent to which the mechanisms formerly used to informally cap the number of Jewish students haven’t so much been dismantled as merely redirected at Asian-Americans. All of the major departures from a strict academic meritocracy — affirmative action, legacy preferences, athletic recruitment, emphasis on extracurricular activities, geographical diversity, etc. — just so happen to cut against Asian applicants. As a result, just as with Jews back in the day, the Asian-Americans who wind up admitted have substantially better test scores and other academic qualifications than do the non-Asians. Karabel notes all this near the end of the book, but doesn’t really draw any conclusions. Nor do I, really, have any conclusions to draw either since strict meritocracy doesn’t seem to me to actually be a particularly worthy social ideal.
btw, where do i stand on affirmative action? i guess i generally oppose. but the reality is that it is probably here to stay, so i think we should just be sure to know how it really works out. e.g., the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action have been white women, not blacks (for example). the beneficiaries of affirmative action who are black at elite universities are not typical black americans:
Ethnic self-identification of Harvard black students
Black American, 57.1% Afro-Caribbean, 21.2% African, 13.6% Bi-ethnic or biracial, 25.9%
(i was wrong about the biracial %, doubled it in my original post)
and, 50% of the fathers of black Harvard freshmen have advanced degrees….
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of theatre programs and liberal arts departments. Who is going to support academia if everyone runs off to be a doctor? I was going to make your 3rd point but I don’t know the alumni donation rates across ethnicities… but I think we can all assume that rich white people give the most money to their alma maters…
You’re talking ECs when I’m talking life experiences. It is easy to make the right choices and get top scores when you have a whole community of people telling you that’s what should be done. If you are from a community where most people haven’t gone to college, where your parents don’t even know what an SAT is, and where half the kids in your HS don’t graduate (raises hand) a lower test score (gpa, not so much…) can be more impressive.
With AA, groups are measured against each other. So if asians have to have high test scores its because that’s the standard thats been set within that group.
and
1) i was wrong about the biracial number
2) this study
3) how do you know this the case for every black student at Harvard?, i’m not god, so i don’t know, nor do i believe it is true of every black student at harvard. in any case, the problem is diminished at harvard since along with howard they get the creme. it is more of an issue at the non-harvard elites.
It is easy to make the right choices and get top scores when you have a whole community of people telling you that’s what should be done. If you are from a community where most people haven’t gone to college, where your parents don’t even know what an SAT is, and where half the kids in your HS don’t graduate (raises hand) a lower test score (gpa, not so much…) can be more impressive.
1) easier, not easy
2) please note that 50% of blacks students have fathers with advanced degrees. the problem with race-based affirmative action is that it doesn’t have the SES results that most claim for it. there is a large black middle class, over half of the community. it isn’t like they aren’t applying to college. i grant there are cultural issues, i just don’t believe that it is proper to assert them without the context of the fact that black students at elite universities differ in color, but are often quite privileged.
Oneup,
i don’t particularly want to get into a discussion about admissions policies re: non-asians. my only point in responding to the topic here is that different minority groups have different interests on this issue. and, different segments within the minorities have different interests. a korean american kid with a 1600 SAT and 4.25 GPA and a bunch varsity letters + music + outstanding community service is in a different place than a korean american kid with a 1450 SAT a 3.9 GPA 1 varsity letter + music + ho hum community service. i think the former can support affirmative action pretty easily since there are a wide arrange of unconstrained options. the latter, less so, because they’re marginal.
This is the thing, no where in that article does it say that the black students admitted to harvard had significantly lower stats than other racial groups. You seem to be claiming that as the case, since that’s usually what people who go the SES based AA route want to claim.
What I want to know is: How do you know those black students with educated parents and higher SES didn’t get in on their own “merit” like everyone else at harvard? Why do they have to be AA admits?
Isn’t the latter person screwed regardless?
First off, Thank GOD that UC Berkeley doesn’t do affirmative action! Secondly, what is it that Ivy Leagues want, exactly? No one really seems to know! At least with the UC’s that I applied to, I was sure that my grades and, yes, test scores fell in the “accepted student” range based on last year’s and the years’ before stats. But, with Ivy Leagues, even if your grades and test scores are outstanding, your teachers love you, and you’ve got a few extracurriculars as well, somehow, they can decide you’re not “well-rounded” enough or some other BS like that and reject your petootie, when a kid who’s taking Regular Pre-Calc as a senior (you took Honors Pre-Calc as a sophomore, followed by AP Calc BC and AP Stats) but is biracial and has “legacy” at Harvard on her dad’s side gets in!! I don’t get it! Will AA help me, a South Asian Indian American, or is it already hurting me??! (Sorry for the rant, guys — touchy issue for me. Especially since my parents won’t get off my case about my abysmal 0-4 batting average at the Ivys I applied to!).
re-#31 What do you mean by ‘screwed’?
Sigh I think I was the (brown version of the) latter person in Razib’s example. And thus I got “screwed” — no Ivy acceptancs for me!
I mean that with AA, the latter person might not get in to allow for an URM… and without it, that person won’t get in because he is competing with someone with similar background and higher scores/better stats.
diversity in terms of race is NOT equivalent to diversity in terms of background (economic, culture, society etc). the later is good for universities when it can be achieved. i think most affirmative program supporters tend to confuse one with another.
wtf?!? this is exactly what so many other SA friends of mine have to fight against when they tell their parents that they don’t want to go into medicine/engineering. there’s a lot of talk about the confines of “the model minority” stereotype, let’s not buy into it ourselves.
White Flight
Interesting article.
The irony. Members of the race that enslaved blacks are benefitting from a progam orginally designed to counter the legacy of slavery. With all this talk of diversity, whatever happened to the shackled runner metaphor?
true dat – i dont see how you got the impression that asians HAVE to do engineering/medicine from what i wrote – i for one dont care about this at all – do whatever you want, and if anybody, even if your parents oppose you – all the more reason for you to do what you want 😉
however it is simply wrong and silly to say that those who do choose to go into these fields are overrepreesnting asians –
another thin- most commenters on this blog are doctors, lawyers, engineers whatever –
its hypocritical of people in these professions to say that asians are over represented in these fields – if you feel this way, quit what you are doing and do something else – to ease the overrepresentattion problem ofcourse 😉
FYI, the Supreme Court, with its two new radical conservative additions, is very likely to rule that affirmative action violates the equal protection clause. The recently retired Justice O’Connor was part of the 5-4 razor thin majority that upheld the Univ of Michigan’s affirmative action program in Gratz v. Bollinger. AA programs might well be limited to private institutions very soon.
The gap in SAT scores persists even at the highest levels of achievement. A study of the 1989 applicants to five highly-selective universities found that white candidates’ average combined SAT score was 186 points higher than the corresponding SAT average for African American applicants. Close to 75 percent of the white applicants scored over 1200 on the SAT, while 29 percent of black applicants did. The results of this study were reported in the 1998 book b>The Shape of the River: Long-Term Consequences of Considering Race in College and University Admissions, by Derek Bok and William Bowen, former presidents of Harvard and Princeton universities.
cite (bok & bowen favor affirmative action in admissiosn)
FYI, the Supreme Court, with its two new radical conservative additions, is very likely to rule that affirmative action violates the equal protection clause.
they’ll find ways to get around it. these rulings are pretty much irrelevant IMO aside from throwing up bureaucratic hurdles. admissions boards can look at where the applicant lives and crank the conditional probabilities based on other clues in their application if they have particular diversity goals.
quite possible. but it won’t affect private universities. for that to happen the SC will have to rule that AA violates the ’64 civil rights act…still possible but less likely.
also, just a reality check, the vast majority of americans do not attend selective institutiosn where this matters.
oops sory desi new yorker, see you pointed this out already. btw, I like the term “radical conservative,” talk about being out of touch with reality. This stuff has been mainstream since at least 1980.
additionally, there is something to be said for principle. e.g., it doesn’t always have to be “how does it affect my group?” there are many asian americans who favor diversity even if it hurts there group, and there are african americans who favor race-blind admissions even if it hurts their group. since people here like to remind me i’m ‘bangladeshi’ i suppose i should be pissed about being lumped in with those high achieving indian americans, but whatever. whatever the rules of the game, they should be transparent.
way too pessimistic razib. It’s hardly a popular program so it can be destroyed by plebiscite or on constitutional grounds with more conservative judges.
AA would be a goner if the republicans chose to make it a bigger issue. but they haven’t. bush is too compassionate.
way too pessimistic razib. It’s hardly a popular program so it can be destroyed by plebiscite or on constitutional grounds with more conservative judges.
doesn’t matter. implementation is the key. you can ‘ban’ affirmative action but there are ways to get around it. whatever happened to switching from the SAT to the SAT II a few years back? black activists were angry with latinos seeing as how spanish was avail. as one of the subject tests and it seemed an unfair leg up….
Oneup: My apologies for my second comment in #23. I did not realize you meant life experiences. In fairness, nor did a few others, till you clarified in #26.
I am entirely with you on this. It is easy to do well when someone hands you the rulebook, and you just have to follow the rules. Its much harder when you have to figure out the rulebook yourself. I think we need AA (and in the Indian context, reservations for backward castes). But again, it is extremely hard to come up with parameters that ensure that a small already-privileged subset of those classes/castes does not walk away with the pie. This is an issue that does not get sufficient attention.