With what seems to be the ongoing theme on Sepia Mutiny this week of (self) identification of South Asian Americans and racialization of America, I had to share the following story I got in my inbox this morning. My friend’s name is Nirva. Nice desi name, right? Nirva is shopping for a bicycle, and found one on craigslist…
Nirva: I saw your add on craigs list about the bicycle sale. And, I’m really interested in the nishikisport and murray women’s bikes. Are both of these frames lightweight and are they new? Thanks, NirvaCraigslist Bike Seller: what nirva, whateva
[What exactly deos the “whateva” mean? Was it an insult to her name? Or was it a “we have no bikes for you”?]
N: i am sorry what did you say?
CBS: oh yeah righ they are brand new for 80 dollars yes. come right over this is hollywood and you can buy a bike nishiki brand for 80 dollars. what boat did you just get off?
[“What boat did I get off?” Kind of presumptuous to get all of that simply from her first name, don’t ya think?]
N: Excuse you…..First of all. It’s a question. If you want to answer it then answer it right. Damn you’re great with customer sales. Ya really want the bike now. Go take some happy pills and think twice before you get on a high horse and act anti-immigrant.CBS: anti-immigrant? I just saw the movie Borat and you can not take a Joke! I do not think you want the bikes since they are not Brand New. They are used and I am sorry if I offended you but you are obviously too serious.
[Oh no. She didn’t go there with a Borat reference…]
N: I don’t want your bike because of your first response “what nirva, whateva” and because you asked me “what boat did you just come off” (by the way anyone would find that to be a little on the anti-immigrant side).You think you’re not anti-immigrant because you saw the movie Borat??!?!??!?!! Borat’s all about highlighting how anti-immigrant and stupid people are when it comes to dealing with people of other cultures, not to mention the guy who plays Borat is a white guy from England (He’s not really from Khazakstan in case you didn’t know) So you think you you’re not anti-immigrant cuz you saw a dumbass mainstream movie? A person who truly supported immigrants would never say something like “what boat did you just come off?”
You think I can’t take a joke. Sure I can. What I can’t take is an offensive comment.
CBS: blah bla bla, go eat some cake you cake eater. hey nirva you need to get those papers soon thats why you are too uptight. hurry up and go to the ins and stand in line
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p>I think she needs to go buy that bike just so that we can get an i.d. on this craigslist bike seller. My first thought when I read this interaction is CBS is never going to sell her bikes with that kind of a ‘customer is always right’ attitude. My second thought — Borat is how she justified those comments, really? Final third thought — in this crazed world of anonymity of internet where one feels empowered to say whatever they feel like, the idiots can still make racists comments inferred all from a single name. No where in her entire e-mail was her ethnicity or race ever mentioned – CBS felt that they could make bigoted comments on Nirva’s ethnicity simply by her first name.
What is in a name? After all, names is why Kalpen Modi changed his stage name to Kal Penn – and saw an increase in audition calls subsequently. How many desis do we know who have ‘Americanized’ names — or nicknames of cartoon characters to make it easier on other people to say your name? Would CBS have reacted the way she did, had Nirva signed her e-mail with a ‘Betty’ or ‘Cindy’? Would CBS have had the courage to say the things she said in the e-mail to Nirva’s face? I think Nirva responded quite civilly — I think I may have let my temper get the best of me if I responded to those e-mails …What would you have done?
I don’t really trust those people to do a good job.
well said. yea rebelling against parents is a universal phenomenon, but there’s an added layer when you’re a 2nd gen– are you rebelling against just your parents or your culture? this is the question that always came up in my mind (and the one my parents would ask me, cuz they were going through a learning experience just like i was). where does parenting end and indian culture begin? that to me is the specific 2nd gen angle to the equation.
Again you are making it about perservation of culture and I’m telling you that it has NOTHING to do with one feeling the need to PRESERVE their own culture and everything to do with the need to make your parents happy and dealing with the pressure to conform elsewhere when you’ve been raised one way and have an identity at home.
And if it’s so common elsewhere why so hostile about it? It is a human issue, you are the one making it a ABD issue and dismissing it. If you experience the conflict with your own parents the least you can do is empathize with the younger bunch instead of get annoyed at it.
and ps-
that “whole country” is not preserving MY way of life, they are constantly evolving in THEIR way of life. there is a lot that i share with those brought up in india and we may share many life experiences, but we are being brought up in different cultures. the indian experience is not interchangeable with the indian american experience, though we share many ties.
After reading this thread I am quite shocked frankly how even in an English-speaking country people mangle Indian names, when these are phonetically spelled in English. I live in a country where English is not the native language, and let me tell you Indian names get mangled horribly beyond belief. But guess what? People still learn them. Even though they can’t pronounce them completely properly, it’s good enough. I generally use the shortened version of my full name, which is also my handle on this site. Even that people struggle with, because in this country the ‘EE’ equals an English ‘A’ phonetically. The ‘kshi’ is even more impronouncable to them, and usually the first time it is turned into something Polish. The treatment of my sister’s name is even worse, because the letter ‘G’ is guttural. I also know a few folks who gave their children simple, Westernised names. There is even a little around here whose name is of uber-Scandinavian origin. But she is 100% desi.
Btw, it’s interesting to note that over here the Chinese desis don’t keep Western names, but traditional Chinese ones. I knew a Japanese guy as well and he didn’t have a Christian name either.
I think Amitabh, Vaishnavi and Puliogre(#202-204) agree that it is also about preserving desi culture and not only about parental pressure.
To the contrary. If it is an ABD issue, I’d like to understand it. If it is a human issue, I’d be less interested.
Btw, it’s interesting to note that over here the Chinese desis don’t keep Western names, but traditional Chinese ones. I knew a Japanese guy as well and he didn’t have a Christian name either.
what does ‘christian’ mean? i think we should use the term western because it gets the point across (e.g., biblical names that syrian christians have are western in that they have a semitic root) without getting caught up in cultural baggage (though this would mean that south asian muslims often have ‘western’ names, but i can accept that, the etymology of the names are often clearly persian or arabic, though khan is off course originally mongolian).
p.s. i have an aunt named maya, which sounds just like maia, which is greek.
Well, I did mean Western, but I used ‘Christian’ for variety’s sake. 🙂
Maya is a common name across all cultures, methinks. I know two desis called Maya, and I’ve seen the name in a lot of different ethnic groups as well(like Russians). Same with Mira.
meena. e.g., meena suvari. a lot of lithuanian names sound brown too.
Meena – You’re lucky that even your mispronounced name “Maina” is a legitimate name in India…and beautiful too. 🙂
Looks like an adolescent prick. Probably doesn’t even have any bikes to sell, just a troll.
Might happen more often than you think. I have a very (difficult for Americans to pronounce) Norwegian last name. Before coming to the US all my Norwegian relatives went by the same surname. However many of my cousins on the Norwegian side of the family took the name “Johnson” because my great-great grandfather’s name was Jon. This was a pretty standard practice for Scandinavians. Still, as 1st generation Americans in the 1800s there was a little extra pressure to blend in & take the more Anglo-sounding name “Johnson”.
OTOH maybe my parents made the whole story up. Probably trying to make me feel guilty for not eating all my lutefisk at Christmastime.
what does “preserving desi culture” mean anyways? (i’m asking it as a serious question, not a flippant one.) when a caucasian friend of mine shaved her head, people said, oh she’s just rebelling against her parents. when an indian friend of mine pierced her eyebrow, the aunties and uncles (and some of their kids too) said, she’s assimilating into american culture and rejecting her “indian-ness” (whatever that is supposed to mean). why can’t she just be rebelling against her parents like my caucasian friend? i agree with janeofalltrades to a point that a lot of these issues come from things that are universal in a parent-child relationship. but when parents are sometimes your only vehicle to getting information and understanding what it means to be an indian, when i rebel against my parents, sometimes it feels like to me AND them that i am rejecting my indian identity.
anyways, isn’t that why we all have sepiamutiny? so we can have a place to turn to when we feel confused about our south asian identity? 🙂
I’m about halfway through the comments and wanted to go ahead an add mine, and I’m verbose an a fan of smilies. Hope that’s okay; I’m a newbie. 😀
Re: Names and Pronunciation. Recently I met a man from Bangladesh who told me his name, and I tried to repeat it. It was a loud bus, so he gave up. I can understand; it can be frustrating. However, I’m a fan of unusual (to me) names and other languages, and if given half the chance, I would’ve taken the time pronounced that name as close as possible to how it was supposed to be pronounced. Not all of us Euro-Americans is lazy with names. 😉
One of my best friends is Vietnamese and he goes by his Vietnamese name and an American/English name. His friends know him by the American name and his coworkers by his legal, Vietnamese, name. Although he thinks in Vietnamese, he grew up here and his identity is as an American, and I think that may be why he prefers the American/English name.
As someone of mostly European ancestry, the whole name-changing phenomenon has negatively affected my family and me, too. I’ve gotten the impression that in the 19th-and-early-20th centuries, you told the clerk at Ellis Island your name, and hoped he heard all the consonants and vowels. This led to the wide variety of spellings for various European surnames in America, and is also the reason my mother is having so much trouble finding our relatives in Germany.
Although my name-experiences are far different from other posters such as Nirva, Taz, etc., I have had strange reactions to my name. Natalie isn’t a very common name in Oklahoma, and I’ve had people start and do double-takes at hearing it. One guy even repeated it to me, just to make sure he had heard me right. Coupled with my unusual features, and people usually think I’m Jewish when they hear my name (I’ve also been mistaken for Iranian and Chinese, although since I’m Melungeon, I very well could be ;p).
Re: Borat. Someone said that they thought Borat was hurting Arabs (I’m having trouble finding the specific post). I’m not sure that many Americans would think of him as Arab. I myself always thought of him as Russian/Eastern European (far, far Eastern European), but that could just be the reaction from this area of the country.
I agree with Jai Singh, who would have preferred it if he came from a made-up country. The reason it would have been better, and the reason it would not have worked if he’d been an American singing about black people, Bidi, is because Borat’s ambiguous ethnicity and “foreignness” gives him power over the people with whom he’s interacting. He can say the things he’s saying because he supposedly doesn’t know the proper protocol, which gives the people around him the freedom to say what they truly think without worrying about breaking the social taboos of their fellow countrymen. It’s similar Cohen’s use of Ali G’s ethnicity. He is just some kid from West Staines who thinks he’s black, but with his name being Ali, his interviewees put up with the stuff Cohen says to them, because they don’t want to be seen as racist against this kid who could be any number of ethnicities.
I personally am ecstatic that Bruno/Brueno is getting a movie, as he was always my favorite of the three.
From where I’m sitting Vaishnavi you aren’t confused at all. You are going to do just fine because your heart is in the right place and you ask the questions that matter and at some point in life everything does make sense and you look back and laugh at how silly some struggles were and I assure you it isn’t picking one side but making the best of both and living with it.
Well said JoAT. I hope this sums up the discussion nicely.
Rebelling against your parents does NOT equal rebelling against your Indian identity. Your parents idea of India is probably one frozen in time in the 70s. I think all you ABDs should visit India and see that Indian youth are not that different from you. We rebel against our parents, we date and intermarry people across caste , language and religious lines, we color our hair, sleep around and listen to Tupac….there… we are all the same…its called growing up, finding yourself. The young generation is India is as sick of patriarchy and conservatism as you guys are. That’s not the part of Indian culture that’s going to survive, so we should not be concerned if it dies out.
My $0.02 on Borat:
I don’t think Sascha had the balls to be a satirical representation of an arab, iranian or pakistani muslim, which is what he really wanted to do. So he tried to be sly with it, and play a Kazakh.
Why do those two have to be mutually exclusive?
indian_immigrant, i’ve been to india multiple times, and yes, times are a-changin’, but not everywhere and not at the same pace. my parents are from the rural south, and while things have changed since they left in the early 80s, people are not listening to rap music, my cousins don’t wear western clothes outside of the house, not one of them dare talk about dating, the girls are still told that going to college is a waste for them. there is a lot of urbanization going on and there is change in my family: twenty years ago, my cousins would have been forced to marry whomever their parents chose (very often a relative in order to keep the wealth in the family), now my aunts and uncles have decided to abandon the idea of marrying within the family and allowing their child to have a say. but love marriages are a big no-no and i have a cousin that we haven’t heard from in two years because she eloped and her family cut all contact from her. like i’ve said earlier, this is just my experience, but to my parents, i am rebelling against parts of indian culture when i chose to not live at home when i went to college. india as a whole has been rapidly evolving and changing to the times, but that change takes a while to trickle down to the small villages and towns.
HMF, i don’t think that the two have to be mutually exclusive, but my question is why in my experience, one answer is almost always chosen when there are multiple answers to why someone does anything.
: I don’t think Sascha had the balls to be a satirical representation of an arab, iranian or pakistani muslim,- which is what he really wanted to do. So he tried to be sly with it, and play a Kazakh.
What do you base this one?
My first name is Irish. My last name is French. People mispronounce both in painful ways. Don’t feel special….
Indians aren’t rebelling against their parents because times are changing. They’ve always done that. My grandmother, from a snooty south Indian Brahmin family, married my grandfather, a Shudra, in the 1940s. My great-grandfather on the other side had a second wife that was white. I don’t think these things were common but they were not that unusual. In the early 1990s, before economic liberalization and Star TV and overwhelming exposure to western media, lots of my high school classmates were sneaking out with boys, and no one said they were rebelling against Indian culture, they were just rebelling. Indians were definitly affected by the Victorian morality of their colonizers; I don’t think Indian sexual conservatism is truly an indigenous cultural construct only. In folk tales and literature people were always getting it on with dancing girls in a socially acceptable way.
I’m definitely surprised by how much more conservative the upbringing of my second-gen desi friends was, even some who have one white parent (refer to East is East).
What kind of a society/place are you trying to create? Another extension of the western world? And what elements of Indian culture do you think will survive?
to me, the discussion comes back to the question of where does parenting end and indian culture begin? my parents and i can’t definitively answer that question, and that is why the rebelling that almost any teenager can relate to gets morphed into a preservation of culture issue in my house. when all i know about india and my family’s life and heritage is from my parent’s teachings, where is the line between their cultural teachings and parenting style? is there one?
Vaishnavi, For each one of your stories of backward India, I can give a story about forward India. I can also garnish it with some stories about some underage white girl bein married off as third wife to some old man in Utah. But then it would be taking one case and generalizing it. Lets not do it. Its okay if your family comes from a compartiviely backward area which hasnt caught up with times, but I am sure they will, just give them a few years. My pet peeve is people generalizing a population of more then 1 billion by looking at a select few.
I think I represent the educated and somewhat privileged ( who can not spell by the way, I am sure I spelled “privileged” and many other words wrong 😀 ) strata of indian society. I find myself more educated, more aware of my sorroundings and dare I say smarter then most of the people I come across in daily life other then work. Imagine my frustration when sometimes I get patroinized by people who I know are way inferior then me (not being snobby, just matter of fact!).
Most of the 1st gen people who come here (specially for further education) are above average people (doesnt matter which group you put them in) who already have accomplished something by securing admission/scholarships early in their lives agains considerable odds. These people come here mentally prepared to tackle some racism from people of other color. But when we encounter the same behaviour from our own people (yes we consider you over own, can’t change the skin color), its quite hurtful and brings resentment.
I know the ABD side of story all too also and sympathize with them too, but I guess they will have to get over the self hate someday.I have a lot of friends cousins who are ABD’s and now since they consider me as one of their “own”, I see how they spend their time. The reference to and mimicking of indian accents, making fun of peoples clothes or hair, saying shit about their own parents etc consumes a major part of their life. It just scares me to think what kind of self image they are living with.
Long Rant! Time for lunch 🙂
The larger point is it doesn’t matter that they are following something frozen in time, it is still an Indian indentity. It doesn’t matter that you don’t recognize it as one but to the person who subscribes to it everyday and the person who has to live in it’s shadow everyday it IS an Indian identity.
I’m sure this is true because everyone talks about it but when I go to India … Mumbai / Pune I don’t really see this. Yeah I see kids who are a little more modern than those when I left India 20 years ago but not where they have abondoned the values they were raised with. My family isn’t that overly conservative but a fairly traditional Maharashtrian family and despite the girls being educated everyone followed the path the parents choose for them including what they studied, where they worked and who they married as well as having kids within 2 years of marriage. To a larger extent the young desis I come across in India may be modern in terms of technology and thought but in practice are just as conservative as my parents.
What arrogant statements! Do you realise YOU represent the ‘select few’, and that MOST OF INDIA would probably fit your notion of ‘backward’?
And you realize by categorizing yourself you have put yourself in a minority? The rest of average India does not fall in the educated nor privileged sphere.
Are you implying that conservatism in India is as rare as a Polygamist colony in Utah?
Education does not equate progression and modernism. Lets not get all wrapped up in the delusion.
Ive always been nice to the immigrant crowd. i tend to relate to them more than most americans for some reason (even though I am an american from america). Sounds like youve had it rough w/ your cousins…
it is not self-hate! it’s more of self-discovery– figuring out who you are and where you fit in this oh so big world. it’s something that everybody goes through, but as a 2nd gen of any ethnicity living in the states, it takes time to figure out the balance in your life, maybe a little longer than it does for others.
i hate when people generalize about india as well, which is why i brought my life example (which i said was a story specific to me). all of india is not rural farmland, neither is it all like mumbai either. i am proud of where my family has come from, it’s not backwards, but conservative in my opinion, and having visited multiple times over the period of 20 years, things don’t change as quickly as you may think they do. my family’s experience shapes my view of indian culture so that it may be different from someone that is wealthier/more progressive back home. i have nothing against 1st gens, and i don’t spend my time ridiculing their accent or mannerisms. as for complaining about parents and nitpicking people’s outfits, not everyone does that, and when i did participate in such gossip fests, it has nothing to do with being a 2nd gen and much more about being a gossipy high school girl 🙂
Patriarchy and conservatism are not particularly Indian values. They are just as prevalent in America. In fact the Hindu Right and the Christian Right share ideology to a surprising degree. So if you’re arguing that we should maintain the values of patriarchy and conservatism because they’re Indian, they’re not.
Amitabh, I know it comes as pretty arrogant and my apologies for that. I was just trying to make a point and by getting you to reac the way you did, I think I was able to prove my point when you clubbed me in the “select few” category and clubbed rest as “MOST OF INDIA”. You caught my mistake but commited the same, with just doing the role reversal.
My point exactly is that there is no one MOST if India. There are so many diffrent types of people of varying education, varying classes and varying monetary levels. The country is full of all kinds of people some of whom are arrogant pigs like me (without appearant reason also it seems ) :), some are quite modern, some are quite traditional, some are modern in some aspects and traditional in some aspects, some are brilliant artists, managers, farmers ,housemakes , item girls etc etc. You name it we got it. Yes we have a sizable chunk of people who still are not where they deserve to be. But the amount of other progressive people is also very overwhelming and thats why its kind of a problem when it all gets packed into image of one stereotypical desi image.
Again my aplogies for some imprudent choices of words.
Waiting to be flamed 😀