Every time we’ve discussed domestic violence on this blog we end up having the same debate – “Is domestic violence worse amongst desis?” – without having any facts. However, thanks to a recent WHO study of 24,000 women in ten countries, we know a bit more about the way that one desi country (Bangladesh) stacks up to nine others outside the region:
Domestic violence in urban Bangladesh is worse than any of the six other countries where urban domestic violence was measured, and domestic violence in rural Bangladesh is the third worst of the relevant eight countries, after Ethiopia and Peru.
How bad is it? 
In Bangladesh, a cross-sectional survey of women aged 15-49 years was carried out, with 1603 interviewees in the capital city Dhaka and 1527 in the rural area Matlab….Combining data for physical and sexual violence, 53% of ever-married women in Dhaka and 62% in Matlab had ever experienced physical or sexual violence. [Link]
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p>Nor is this the kind of violence that apologists can simply wave away:
In both sites, one in four women who had experienced physical abuse by a husband reported that they had been injured at least once in their lifetime; a third of them in the past 12 months.Among women who had been injured, 68% in Dhaka and 80% in Matlab needed health care at least once as a result of their injuries.
10% of ever-pregnant women in Dhaka and 12% in Matlab were physically abused during at least one pregnancy. Of these, 37% in Dhaka and 25% in Matlab were punched or kicked in the abdomen. [Link]
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p>Much of this violence is hidden from view:
In both sites, 66% of women who were physically abused by their husband never told anyone about the violence…Only 5% of physically abused women in Dhaka and 7% in Matlab ever sought help for the violence. [Link]
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p>Why is domestic violence so high in the one SouthAsian country tested, and is it representative of the region as a whole? My guess is that domestic violence in Bangladesh is high because women have relatively low levels of education and therefore few economic opportunities outside the home.
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p>That would be consistent with the fact that DV is higher in rural than urban settings. If I had the time, I’d graph rates of DV against female literacy, I’ll bet they correlate quite well. [I’ll see if I can do so tonight].
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p>If the lack of female economic empowerment is indeed closely related to rates of DV, then one would expect this to hold for the region as a whole, and for inter-regional variation to follow female literacy as well. [Does anybody have rates within India?]
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p>Is there a cultural / religious component to this too? I can’t tell since Bangladesh is the only Muslim country tested, but it is worth noting that the two countries with worse rates of rural DV are both very heavily Christian countries, and that Thailand and Japan (both Buddhist countries) have quite different rates of DV. My personal opinion is that the economic factors are primary.
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p>I suggest reading the country summary for Bangladesh (which is short), or the introduction to the report as a whole.
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p>Related posts: National Sexual Assault Awareness Month, Misogyny kills, Seeing the in-laws
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Agreed. The reason why education gets brought up again and again is straightforward. Poor people (where incidents are higher or for lack of a better word, a hotspot) are poorly educated on the norm. To push said high rate to levels with middle or upper class society, upward economic mobility is necessary. Upward economic mobility almost certainly accompanied with better education, not that all rich/middle class people are well educated (self made entreprenuers for example). But poor people are definitely NOT well educated, bar the educated ones that make a conscious choice to live a life a poverty for other goals.
Shame and family honor are more important in communities in which community itself is more important. For example, religious american communities versus secular urban communities. I think raising education levels for women is useful for allowing women to leave abusive situation, and on the other end, programs should target the devaluation of women and vulnerable communities as well. That way you get at the other side of the coin, why these behaviors occur in the first place
Some stats about income and race here Some stats about immigrants and DV here Other stats about Poverty & DV here & here
I’m sorry that I’m posting this anonymously, and I hope you will forgive me as what I’m about to write is of a more personal nature. By and large, it is the women in my family who have been far more physically violent than the men (though it has gone both ways). I have grown up seeing almost all of the women in my family, including my mother, respond irrationally to an argument, get hysterical, and then eventually throw things or hit their spouses and/or even themselves. I am most ashamed to admit that I too have exhibited some of these traits in the past; I have hit two boyfriends and have resorted to self-abuse when feeling desperate. I know many women, desi or not, who have hit their boyfriends, but I think it isn’t even acknowledged as abuse because a woman can inflict much less harm on a man (assuming she is unassisted). The women I know who have hit their bf’s/spouses have varied widely in education and income level. I know that my own family is far too small of a sample size to have any real merit, but because of my own personal experiences with violence, I really question how much woman-on-man violence is overlooked or unseen.
in my family, there are no man to woman DV relationships (to my knowledge). however, the aunties and daughters are argumentative, irrational, throw pots and pans at their spouses, a lot like how “unnamed this time” describes in her family. while this may be slightly off-topic, i think that a lot of the reasoning behind these uneven husband/wife relationships comes from the fact that for many women, the home is one the one place she can be the ruling head. in traditional indian society, she is secondary to her husband/brother/father, but with domestic matters, she is the one in charge of cooking, cleaning, etc. and because of her forced subordination in many arenas, she lets her aggression out on her family. if the women in my family were allowed to be leaders in groups, have a part-time job, and be allowed to be assertive in another manner, i really feel they wouldn’t be so harsh and verbally violent with their spouses and/or children.
It is important to distinguish between an isolated incident and systematic abuse. Spouses know how to push each others buttons and given the right conditions it is possible for heated words to be exchanged, objects flying, and less commonly, physical violence of varying degrees. Socioeconomic status and relative imbalance (in education, power) probably account for most of the variability. In the 1980s mumbai, it was de rigeur for husbands in deadend jobs to come drunk and beat their wives. It happened in the house where I lived (with the maid). With economic progress, things should have improved on this front, hopefully. In the circle of family and relatives we havent heard of any serious cases of spousal abuse.. perhaps its more common in some classes and communities than others? Yeah.. I have had my share of incidents with spouse but in a weird way they helped us to understand each other better. A lack of incidents means something is wrong.. perhaps not enough disagreements?
Just a white boy’s opinion on the whole subject. I agree with the posts that place the emphasis on power, lack of opportunity (education, jobs, income), and social inequality as the major factors accounting for domestic violence rather than a white versus brown, black versus white issue. Abuse happens on all income and intelligence levels, but ultimately it is about those with power abusing those in positions of vulnerability.
In my opinion there appear to me more opportunities for women in the US, so there is less dependence upon a man as the financial provider and protector. The consequences and repercussions are also more severe in the US, although it was not always the case. We didn’t even give women the right to vote until 1920, so it’s not like the US has figured out the issue of gender equality.
When you mean education, I hope you include social education i.e. the idea that it is OK for a woman to leave an abusive relationship and be a divorcee. My cousin was an EE engineer and held a stable govt job. She was married to highly educated US returned NRI in one of those meet today, marry next week arranged marriages. The guy turned out to be a psycopathic abuser. While still in India, she wanted to end the relationship and apply for a divorce, but the family and relatives were dead against it. She died in a kitchen accident. The women and men in our family are as educated as they can be. Even my grandmother could read and write english and was well versed in Hindu scriptures. The family is a major fan of Hindu reformers. And did I mention we are south indian. My mother was her lone support in the entire family, who couldn’t do much since she was bedridden with illness then. This incident has affected her relationship with her siblings since them.
I am glad that this was raised here. I think DV in the south-asian community is under reported and easily overlooked amongst the din and proclamations of being a model minority.
I find the post attributing stress to be the cause of DV a little flimsy and an easy cop-out.
While researching this recently I found that the following books presented interesting perspective about social, economic and religious factors. Breaking the Earthenware and Breaking the silence.
It would be interesting to develop this issue further and perhaps invite south asian NGO’s working in DV like Manavi.
Does DV include familial violence? For example, I was beat by my dad, and when mum couldn’t handle it, by her, finally by my husband. Growing up in Canada, studied in the US (MBA at UCLA), I finally left them all. But, why don’t the DV stats include women who were abused by others, including their mate? All had jobs, all had edu-ma-cation, but still did the village-y ways of India not leave them as the people left?
DV is cultural to a large extent. It is certainly influenced by women’s lib. in those respective cultures. The machismo societies, south american, desi & asians, their idea of the role of a wife/partner differs vastly from N. America. When I worked for a DV org. in NY the commom thread between these women who reported the abuse was justification or some form of acceptance of DV based on ‘cultural norms’. Women who refused to comply with the ADA’s prosecuting their cases often had the same complain; in their ‘culture’ DV wasn’t enough reason to break up their family & the constant complain that ADA’s don’t understand these differences. While education, empowerment and positive female role models in their respective society is certain a factor, IMO culture plays a very big role.
Saira, from the same study:
Yeah, but what about Japan? Japanese society is also very patriarchal and misogynist (heck they have anime that depict gang rapes and violence against women) yet their rates are pretty low.
That can’t be right. Violence against children is very acceptable in Bangladesh. I wouldn’t be surprised if the interviewed women totally forgot their parents (usually mothers) hit them when they were kids. I don’t know a SINGLE Bangladeshi who wasn’t hit (and I’m not talking about the odd smack on the bottom for being naughty, I’m talking abuse with sandles, rulers and bamboo sticks you can buy on the streets!). Actually I lie, I know one kid who is 3 years old now and hasn’t been smacked, but that’s probably coz he has Bong Snaps (Bangladeshi sensitive new age parents).
Check the definition of physical violence they use, also the time scales. I don’t recall, but that might explain the discrepancy.
Education makes you a better worker and a more productive, wealthier citizen. It does not make you a better, more moral person. I spend most of my time around PhD’s and aspiring PhD’s… and I do not find them to be noticeably braver, kinder or more considerate than anyone else. A genius-level IQ, a graduate education and a successful law career certainly did not stop my father from beating the hell out of my mother and terrorizing me…
Which, when women are educated, gives them more options, and means they’re not trapped in a marriage thinking that they’ll literally starve if they leave it.
“Yeah, but what about Japan? Japanese society is also very patriarchal and misogynist (heck they have anime that depict gang rapes and violence against women) yet their rates are pretty low”
That word “rate” needs to be qualified. I assume you mean “reported instances”? BTW I hope you aren’t linking any chosen form of sexual gratification to DV.
From the limited exposure and experience i’ve had through the DA’s office and social organizations, white women report DV the least. Which ofcourse doesn’t mean it’s nill in that community, many white women instead use the incident in family court as an aid towards their divorce proceedings. (In order words, many of them just don’t sit around for the next time). As to how Japenese women react to the same, I don’t know. But I certainly wouldn’t compare that society to the Korean or Chinese. Anyways, I was just thinking, I’ve been to DV trainings at a couple of soc. orgs and once in the DA’s office, i’ve been lectured in school on DV cases by mostly prosecutors but every now & then we have a ‘guest’ social worker. The one question asked to and answered by all is, causes of DV. The answer now is so predictable, if it’s an ADA they will state fear, finances and culture. But if it is a social worker, self esteem will always top her list and then education, finances and perhaps culture. Again, from my personal experience, most of my ‘clients’ were spanish, black, asians & desis (in that order). Women who often recanted their stories and won’t work with ADAs were asian, desi, spanish and black (in that order).
Saira, good for you for ‘leaving them all’. Can’t begin to imagine the obstacles and pain you’ve had to overcome, the resilience you must have shown. Thanks for commenting.
Branch Dravidian, thank you too.
True, if my mother had been better educated, things might have turned out differently. Me and my brother were the first members of her family to attend college. After 12 years of marriage, she ended up leaving my father anyway. I have no way of knowing whether or not a better resume’ would have hastened that decision. I’m no expert on the psychology of abuse, but I’ve heard of many affluent, educated women who felt that they had no choice and stayed in abusive relationships longer than that. We didn’t starve… but we certainly weren’t enjoying life. Of course when things go that badly wrong, it’s the kids who suffer the most. And they are the ones with no options…
Silz:
No I wasn’t – just wanted to show that Japanese society is pretty patriarchal too and references to violence against women is frequently made in their pop culture, yet comparitive to the other nine countries their ‘rate’ of violence against women is low.
Well, the lead article is discussing a survey of a sample population – I assume the participants didn’t lie.
There are two main issues here:
1) What makes a man think it is OK to hit a woman? 2) Why does a woman continue to stay with an abusive man?
The answer to 2) might be lack of education OR support but the answer to 1) is more complex than culture and lack of education.
You’re right, they only surveyed instances occuring after the age of 15.
Bengali: I find Japan quite misplaced in this context. I think i’d like to see it within Asian and/or North American context and it may make more sense. Ofcourse I don’t discount economics as a factor, not just the personal financial situation of the couple involved but also the nation as a whole. (e.g. Purely govn. resources in ONT seem to surpass the ones I encountered in NYC and thus the decision to leave or stay impacts women accordingly).
As for the 2 questions you posed, I wouldn’t venture to respond to the 1st, but to me it is #2 where culture comes in.
On some level I believe that men who are abusive (as in, pattern of abuse) have issues that need to addressed. But a woman (or society) that continues to be in denial and/or accept that situation thus perpetuating the behaviour is IMO influenced to quite a degree by its culture.
i realize that it may be possible to find a very strong correlation between education and income levels to the occurence of domestic abuse. however, when it comes to reporting the abuse, i’d like to know what the correlation is. i have been both sexually and physically abused. i was educated thoroughly to believe that both were criminal. when i was sexually abused, the first thing i did was to report it and stop myself from showering and all the other typical things victims do. when i was physically abused, it took me 6 months to leave the guy who hit me. he hit me twice; once after i woke him up from his sleep. he claimed no memory of it and said that i must have done something to provoke it, because otherwise he never would have hit me. the second time, we were having an all-out fight. i insulted his virility, he slapped me. this was after a few incidents where he threw things at me. it took me so long to leave, because i couldn’t help but wonder, was he right? was i doing something to provoke it? as far as i know — and i think i do, since i know all of his ex-girlfriends — i am the first woman he has hit. i wanted to believe it was an anomaly, and i started telling myself that maybe there were times when a man hitting me could be justified (though not something i’d want to live with). i don’t know. no matter how educated you are (i had sex and violence ed from 5th grade through high school, and hold a BS and MS in a health related field), it’s not always easy for victims to understand that it’s not their fault.
Unnamed this time,
I completely agree. I was in a relationship where there was physical abuse on both sides. It was not severe, so I convinced myself it was not relevant, and just part of the ‘passion’ of the relationship. Still, there are scars left from abuse committed both by and against oneself. They mar, terribly, the memory of the love which was shared.
Unnamed this time,
Hmmm. Not a good idea. “Fight fair” and all that.
BUT:
It’s NEVER justified. But you have to make sure you simultaneously maintain the higher moral ground too. Don’t “fight fire with fire”, and don’t try to push the other party’s buttons, especially if you know that doing so is going to provoke a violent backlash from him. Of course, some men will be nasty enough that they will hit others regardless of whether they have any real justification for it, but it’s best not to give them any further ammunition in this matter.
The guy possibly suffered some kind of psychotic episode.
If you’ve grown up seeing the women in your family behave in certain negative ways, then I think it’s extremely important that you try to break the cycle by not perpetuating such behaviour yourself (if you really do think that you may have played a partial role in precipitating your own negative experiences — only you can really answer that, at least on SM, since I don’t know you personally offline). There’s no justification for a man ever hitting a woman anyway, but you have to ensure that “in the heat of the moment” you’re not deliberately trying to push the guy as far as possible to see if he’ll “break” and lash out violently at you.
It’s a difficult subject and needs a lot of self-reflection and self-analysis from both parties concerned. But it’s heartening to see that you’ve been doing all this already, and I think you’re very brave for putting your thoughts down here on SM. I hope that you manage to find a man with whom you can have a genuinely healthy, loving relationship. This will help you to “heal”, and of course it’ll also enable you to put the past behind you once and for all. Don’t worry — I’m sure the right guy is out there for you somewhere 🙂
Bengali,
Along with the various answers that have already been given by various commenters above (especially the role “culture” plays in the perceived acceptability of such behaviour), I think it’s also basically to do with the same kind of attitude that makes a person think it’s OK to bully and/or hit anyone perceived to be in some kind of weaker position to them. “Soft targets”, people regarded as being unable to fight back, scapegoats to be used as “punching bags” for their own frustrations/insecurities/hangups etc.
It’s a coward’s mentality, basically.
Ennis & Branch Dravidian,
I have to strongly agree with the above. Higher levels of education and affluence can sometimes have the opposite effect — they can make the people concerned very arrogant, and this kind of egotism can fuel malicious behaviour towards others. South Asian culture in particular can frequently be very ego-driven as we all know, so this can be a factor amongst desis too. I’m sure that in many cases, the people concerned use their intelligence to a) find ways to perform mental acrobatics enabling them to rationalise/justify their own negative behaviour, along with “blaming the victim”, and b) find ways to “cover up their tracks” so that they manage to get away with it. Smarter people can be very good at manipulating others and playing political games, after all.
To paraphrase what someone else once said, “Having money and education doesn’t necessarily stop a person from being a jerk. It just means he’s/she’s a rich educated jerk.”
However, I would also say that sometimes higher levels of education & affluence prevent people from committing domestic violence — not necessarily because they are nicer people, but because they have much more to lose if they are prosecuted for it. Especially if their activities become publicly known.
I think it is also important to note that abuse does not mean the man has to hit you. Abuse can often be in the form of emotional and mental torture and hurt and is much harder to prove than physical abuse. Physical abuse is real tangible and leaves marks. Emotional abuse does not. And it happens to everyone.
Unfortunately it happened to me and I’m a strong successful woman who never takes shit from anyone. Because it was something I had never encountered it was something I couldn’t define nor prove to myself or anyone else. I justified it to my fiestiness and allowed him to convince me that it was because I provoked it and I was just as bad. And the good Indian girl in me told me he’d get past it, that we were going thru a bad phase and we would be fine. It never got better and it took me a ridiculously long time to walk away from it and I was the girl doling out advise I should have followed to everyone on a daily basis.
It wasn’t until my mother and best friend got involved and pointed it out that I realized it was happening. It took a long time for me to admit it and walk away. This is something no one talks about but is a huge part of abuse and important to note. Often women think they aren’t being abused because it’s not like he hits you! And physical abuse is just one part of many forms of abuse women go thru.
Jai brother,
With all due respect people prove me on the subway on a daily basis. God gave me the wonderful gift of speech. I can cut better with my tongue than a knife. So I use my tongue to express my displeasure at something. What prevents me from hitting someone even if say they touch me or say all kinds of disgusting things? Knowing it’s not the right thing to do! That I have no right to touch another human being just because they insulted me.
The above is something society tells women all the time. Are you sure you aren’t doing something to provoke him? And it’s dangerous because it puts the responsibility of bad behavior on the part of men on the woman’s shoulder. Especially in the Indian society where we are told everyday as women “you have to compromise”. It’s a word that gets thrown around as much as “study hard” in our culture and there are some things in life there should be no compromising with.
Sorry we are evolved beings and should behave like it and should expect others to do the same.
Sorry prove above # 131 should read provoke!
No, sadly it isn’t. You’re right – this remains true even with a lot of education on this issue and support structures in place.
JOAT,
You’re absolutely correct about both of the above points, but bear in mind that men are told these things too. They frequently just don’t admit it to anyone else (beyond closest friends, often not even that).
I don’t think it’s a good idea to immediately point the finger at the victim either, but — on the other hand — it’s also worthwhile bearing in mind that there are sometimes two sides to the story. Sometimes the recipients of such “bad behaviour” are completely innocent, sometimes they are not, and it all depends on the particular person and the specific scenario, regardless of whether they’re male or female. A man is not automatically a misogynistic patriarchal jerk purely by virtue of being male, and a woman is not automatically a saintly innocent just because she is female.
The reverse analogy is also correct, of course, and it’s one which is especially important to remember in societies with a heavy cultural bias towards men. As you know from our past discussions here, I don’t believe in patriarchal attitudes by any means, but I don’t believe in “matriarchal” mindsets either. Both should be equal and (ideally) working in partnership. One gender does not need to be dominant over the other, and members of one gender do not inherently possess some kind of automatic superiority (or “the moral high ground”) compared to the opposite sex (regardless of whether the former are men or women). In matters of inherent “worth” or morality, I don’t differentiate between men and women. Both have the same capacity for nefariousness and both also have the same capacity for exalted, inspiring conduct.
Yes, but a) some cultures encourage the attitude that it is okay to hit someone if they insult you — and this is common within multiple ethnic/religious groups here in the West too — and b) at some point, moral restraints sometimes end up overriden by inflamed emotions, and you know what happens next, regardless of whether it’s a verbal argument or an actual physical altercation. This doesn’t mean it’s morally right, but unfortunately people of varying temperaments end up reacting in this way, human nature being the way it is.
A man should never hit a woman, of course, but simultaneously the woman also has a responsibility not to take advantage of the man’s restraint in this matter by deliberately being nasty towards him too, knowing that he won’t hit her no matter how viciously she behaves. It’s a two-way street. That’s just the point I was trying to make. If a guy is going to be abusive — now matter how innocent the woman is — then she should try to get the hell out of the relationship or (ideally) not get involved with that kind of man in the first place. And again, exactly the same principle applies to men getting involved with abusive women too. Like you, I’m referring to “abusive” in the psychological sense too, not just physical violence.
Speaking generally, it is sad how people sometimes repeat the example of their parents. There are plenty of men around who’ve seen their fathers behave nastily towards their mothers, and they repeat the dysfunctional cycle in their own relationships. I’ve seen the same thing happen with some 2nd-Gen desi women too; seeing their fathers behave this way scars them and affects their perspectives towards men in general and their own relationships, and if their mothers were partially culpable for the dysfunctionality of their marriages, sometimes their daughters repeat the same mistakes in terms of their own behaviour towards their partners (ironically, including sometimes being attracted to the same kind of men that their fathers are/were) and inadvertantly sabotage their own relationships.
It takes a lot of strength and self-awareness for both sons and daughters in these situations to learn from their own parents’ mistakes and finally break the cycle.
Thanx for your points. Absolutely agree. Awareness is half the battle. It’s like a disease much like alcoholism.
This makes me want to re-read Brick Lane.
‘A man should never hit a woman, of course, but simultaneously the woman also has a responsibility not to take advantage of the man’s restraint in this matter by deliberately being nasty towards him too, knowing that he won’t hit her no matter how viciously she behaves’
If a man is merely ‘restraining’ the tendency to lash out physically, then at one point or another in a long-term domestic relationship, he is bound to break and lash out. The remedy to DV is not mere ‘restraint’, and to lay responsibility on the victim, no matter how diplomatic your language, is highly irresponsible.
A perceptive man grasps that violence is an extremely ineffective tool in domestic situations – it does not attack isolated behaviour, but the whole fabric of the relationship. An intelligent man will not have to exercise such physical restraint at all. I’ve been with such men – they can alter or influence a woman’s behaviour by their words and character. And if they can’t do that, an honourable and perceptive man will leave rather than demean himself to the level of hitting a woman.
From post 134
‘Yes, but a) some cultures encourage the attitude that it is okay to hit someone if they insult you’
‘A man should never hit a woman, of course, but simultaneously the woman also has a responsibility not to take advantage of the man’s restraint’
‘I’ve seen the same thing happen with some 2nd-Gen desi women too; seeing their fathers behave this way scars them and affects their perspectives towards men in general and their own relationships, and if their mothers were partially culpable for the dysfunctionality of their marriages, sometimes their daughters repeat the same mistakes in terms of their own behaviour towards their partners (ironically, including sometimes being attracted to the same kind of men that their fathers are/were) and inadvertantly sabotage their own relationships.’
In post 134, two excuses for domestic violence (cultural foundations for it and a woman’s provocation) are offered, then tellingly followed by a passage which refers repeatedly to the responsibility of women for the failure of their relationships. This post is nothing but a cleverly couched justification for male violence, DESPITE the repeated protestations against domestic violence. In fact, it is a perfect example of the kind of intellectual trickery the writer refers to in an earlier post. Nefarious indeed.
Dharma Queen,
I’ve already stated explicitly that I have no interest in any online dialogue with you on SM, and you have also been told several times by the moderators of this website not to direct any posts towards me, upon the threat of being kicked off this forum. As you may recall, I was simultaneously told the same thing. This is therefore the only response you will get from me on this thread or any others in future.
As human beings, both men and women have a built-in capacity for physical violence under certain conditions. We learn to discipline this during childhood and early adulthood, and in time it becomes automatic. It’s called “growing up” and becoming a civilised person. Some people of course do not sufficiently grow up in this sense. (The same also applies to “verbal violence”). Men, however, have a significantly higher level of testosterone, and this can manifest itself as higher levels of verbal and/or physical aggression if he has not learned to channel it properly.
That is about as far as possible from what I was saying, but I have no interest in explaining myself to you. Long-term commenters here will understand the context of my comments (JOAT obviously has understood it fully, and so will many others who have read my posts from Day 1, over a year ago), especially as I have an extremely long track record of actively arguing on SM against “blame the victim” attitudes prevalent with South Asian culture, particularly in relation to sexual and/or physical violence against women.
I was originally going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your post #138 has confirmed my reservations about you once again — something I predicted would happen. So please kindly fuck off.
i’m stuck at home, nursing the flue, but JoAT — your posts echo what I’d like to say myself. thanks for that, also thanks for putting yourself out there publicly when i myself feel that i can’t.
whoa. 1) sorry for being a dumbass and not getting the blockquote down, 2) for addressing the wrong person (i meant dharma queen) and 3) is there really need for such language, particularly on a thread about abusive behavior? jeez.
Ennis:
Thanks for recognizing this. This is my main objection–yes, education makes it easier for a woman to leave, but I feel the psychology of abuse, which someone mentioned earlier, is more powerful. This psychology transcends cultures–I know plenty of white American women who feel trapped in abusive relationships despite their education. I don’t have the info handy, but there has been plenty of research on the psychology of abuse and how it can make a woman feel trapped even if she has the financial means to get out.
I think that’s a bit extreme. Jai isn’t being manipulative but simply offering different alternatives for what happens. I’ve seen full on fights break out between people where I want to hit the women for the way they behave much less the man. Again this isn’t about justification but about the blanket need we (society/women) often have to blame the man for everything. Yes a real man restrains himself but a real woman is also not a bitch. I’ve seen women get in a man’s face and say “What are you going to do hit me do it do it” and egg him on.
No one can justify DV or any kind of violence towards women. And I don’t think Jai is either. He is simply offering a simplistic approach of “don’t put yourself in that situation”. Which often times isn’t easy. Yes a woman can leave, yes she can avoid such a man in the first place and 99.9% of time we women have no indication a man would turn out that way. Such is life. But if I go jogging at 3:00 am and am attacked, while it’s 100% not my fault can I completely absolve myself off the blame of jogging at 3:00 am in the first place?
Try to see them as explanations rather than excuses! As long as your objective is to help reduce DV rather than demonize men who resort to it I don’t see how the direction of your argument helps!!
JOAT,
If you extend such logic, you end up in dangerous territory e.g. (insert desi accent here) if a girl goes to a boy’s room at night, how could she be so stupid as to think she will not be raped?
Culpability and prudence are two entirely different matters. In Kandahar, right now, it is extremely imprudent for a woman to leave the house without a burqa on. Everyone knows this. Do we then blame a woman who gets shot while not wearing a burqa? I don’t think so. We can call her imprudent, but not blameworthy. Similarly, I believe a woman has as much right as a man to jog at 3 a.m. (Actually, in my neighbourhood, both men and women do jog at midnight). Would I recommend it in most areas? No. Will I blame a woman who gets raped after jogging at 3am? No way.
With respect to ‘female provocation’, you cannot have it both ways. You can’t simultaneously say ‘Violence is never justifiable’ AND say ‘But sometimes a woman provokes it’. The point is that no provocation deserves physical violence as a response. Why? I think because physical violence does not respond to the spiritual/moral problems exhibited. It just bluntly checks it. It appeals to fear. There’s no chance of learning or growth in physical violence; if anything, there’s a chance of exacerbating the problem. A woman who behaves in the way you describe so aptly (we’ve all seen it somewhere) should undergo something a lot more meaningful – a man who walks away from her, doesn’t talk to her, refuses to cooperate with her, or just leaves her. These are responses that might awaken something in the spirit, because they impact the love in the relationship.
Gotta go now.
Culpability and prudence are two entirely different matters
I agree. JOAT (inadvertently I hope) is conflating culpability with responsibility.
This I agree with 100%.
Jai – I also find this section really problematic. Firstly, verbal actions should never be seen justifying a physical response. Secondly, it’s problematic to assume that a woman’s words are coming out of nowhere, when they might well be in response to previous verbal (or physical) mistreatment by a man. Even as an explanation, I think it’s loaded.
I don’t want to give either side the responsibility to “avoid provoking a physical response”. Not within the house.
Exactly and Jai was simply stating one not the other. They are two different aspects of an issue that should remain separate yet acknowledged.
As far as the culpability issue, I apply to a different school of thought. Modern feminism often ignores prudence when it comes to feminist issues and this is a school of thought I do not find myself aligned to. While I do have the right to jog at 3:00 am, being careful about the choices I make for myself to not put myself in harms way is MY responsibility, not the rest of the worlds. I simply cannot support the school of thought that says “I will jog because it’s my right and if something happens to me it’s not my fault.”
And as Vinay puts it, these aren’t excuses, they are simply explanations of why something happens.
Unamed at this time,
What is the point of your post, why not come out and say it. It seems to me you are conflating domestic violence with being in a bad relationship. A bad relationship it seems to me is the fault of both parties, but domestic violence is only the fault of one.
I agree with DQ in that “restraint” is a misnomer. Given the context of the thread, restraint seems to imply that its in some way justified to respond to a certain incident with violence, but the person is restraining himself. I suppose all behavior is at some level the product of restraint, but in this context, it clearly seems troubling to refer to “restraint”.
Jai Singh, I feel you and DQ are talking at two different levels. DQ is talking about situations where DV is a serious possiblity, and you seem to be talking about the goings-on in a different kind of relationship in which there are disagreements, but the possiblity of violence is remote. In that setting its understandable to use the term “restraint” but in the setting DQ is talking about I think she has a sincere right to object. I did not feel her response was baiting in anyway, by the way. Although the previous history between the two of you may have led you to that idea.
In fact I think you are being uncharitable toward her, although I wouldn’t presume to know for sure her motives or yours. I don’t think DQ meant to hurt you in a serious way with her comments in the past.
Anyway, cheers
Admitantly this is likely yet another pedantic comment from me, but change takes time!
Sahej, before I reply, could you please elaborate?
“Unamed at this time,
What is the point of your post, why not come out and say it. It seems to me you are conflating domestic violence with being in a bad relationship. A bad relationship it seems to me is the fault of both parties, but domestic violence is only the fault of one.”
posts #106 and #125 are the only comments i made that said anything speciic about my opinions about or experiences with domestic violence. perhaps you misread the comment where i incorrectly quoted someone else. i wasn’t trying to purposefully be stupid or ambiguous in post 125, so please let me know what i can clear up. also, i don’t understand your comment about how i am conflating domestic violence with being in a bad relationship, especially considering the fact that i specifically addressed a relationship in which i was a victim of domestic violence. please clarifiy.
Jai Singh is correct in one sense…that no matter what, in an altercation with someone, if it’s serious enough, there is that one part of you that wants to hit them…it’s human nature…but 99.9% of the time, you never do…you yell, you scream, maybe you walk out of the room, maybe you stop talking to that person…in other words, there are factors that prevent you from hitting them (maturity and impulse-control hopefully being the main ones, as well as a revulsion at the thought of hurting someone physically). I remember when Desidawg and myself got into it a few weeks ago and I challenged him to come to NYC and meet me face to face…I am embarrassed by that now, wish I had never posted that…and later I did comment that if we actually were to meet up we’d probably laugh it off…but at the moment that I typed those words, I was angry, and wanted to fight with this unseen, unknown person who had dared to mess with me on the internet – major immaturity on my part. So restraint, as Jai described, is certainly called for in all these situations. As you age and mature (hopefully) the impulse to lash out ideally should lessen or even go away, to the point where no one can faze you, or even provoke you on any level into wanting to do that.