A few hours ago, when I left my new apartment for dinner at Heritage India (Connecticut Ave), rain was escaping the night sky with such fury and speed, my golf umbrella was barely adequate and my mukluks were soaked. They are lined with sheepskin, which is now wet and disgusting. My toes are miserable. I’m barely cognizant of this though, because I’m on the phone, having the most important conversation of my day. I’m so involved with this voice, I barely notice the mile which I’ve walked uphill, the road I’ve made a right turn on, the periodic hordes of people on Adams Morgan’s 18th street, on this dead-because-it’s-wet-and-miserable night.
I should be at my new home, snuggled in my, um, Aerobed, but I have no internet access yet, so Tryst (a much-loved haunt of our Manish’s) has gone from third-place to first place in my life, for the moment. I don’t want to go inside and be the idiot on her cell phone though, so I’m hunched over my umbrella handle while I shiver mindlessly right outside the giant picture window, directly across from “my table“; practically on the sidewalk, it’s close to an electrical outlet and the perfect size for one. It’s also almost exactly where I sit when I’m at Greco. Some call me boring, I prefer consistent.
I’m in the middle of responding to a worrisome revelation when a group of frat-tastic retards lurches past, reeking of sweat and bad alcohol. I’m less vexed by such roving stupidity than some of my friends, mostly because unlike them, I was “Greek” and thus constantly around similar. I turn away from them slightly as they stagger by, wishing Maisnon were here; one of the last times we were together in the Morg, I was grabbed so violently, you could see marks the next day. Well before THAT sickening reminder of ickiness manifested itself in my flesh, our girl became Our Lady of Terrifying Rage. Approximately two minutes after Filthy McNastyman’s fingers defiled my arm, she accosted the pulayadi mon who startled and then offended me. “You do NOT do that”, she ranted, right in his face, as his innards liquefied in the face of her wrath. Ah, good times. But why was I thinking these thoughts? I had no need for such big guns. Nothing was going to happen to me…
“Jewugingglut”
Wait, what? Immediately, I hit a mental rewind even as I strained to listen to the voice currently inhabiting my cell-phone. WAIT. OMG. No. He. Didn’t. I dropped the phone right then from ear to hip and shouted in to the bastardÂ’s wake.
“What the hell did you just say to me??”
He turned back, the look on his face scaring me so much I think I whimpered for Deepa, my Mom and/or my ferocious, late German Shepherd Rani. “I saaaaid, YOU FUCKING SLUT.” This opportunity I had given him to repeat misogynistic filth tickled his friends to no end; they laughed so hard at his courage and genius that they were choking. Two of them slapped him on the back. Oh yeah. You showed me!
The toxic disrespect in his eyes had made my blood go cold, now I felt like I was being microwaved. Shaking replaced shivering, livid indignation supplanting any discomfort with weather. Without pondering or hesitating, I yelled back a suggestion for what he could do with himself, but I felt impotent, despite it. It was painful. If I hadn’t said anything, I would’ve felt steamrolled by him and undone by regret; I did say something and what came next made it all so much worse.
“Fuck that slut.”
“Nah, man. She’s Indian. They’re not sluts.”
“You would know.”
“Hey did that bitch taste like curry when you ate her?”
I obviously don’t know what sort of taste had been left in his mouth at the past point these Neanderthals were referencing, but I knew what the acrid sensation in my mouth meant.
“What just happened? Whom were you shouting at? Where are you? Is it safe?”
“Some guy…just called me “slut”. Twice. I didn’t feel like accepting it, soÂ…anyway I’m in Adams Morgan, in front of Tryst. And no, in some ways I do not feel safe.”
“Some stranger just walked by and called you such a name?”
“Yeah. This day gets better by the MINUTE. I hate this neighborhood. Or, more accurately, the type of entirely-challenged jackass it attracts.”
I try and remind the person IÂ’m conversing with what we were talking about, because they had been in the middle of relating something important; I barely manage to do this effectively. I can’t stop considering pepper spray. Or German Shepherds.
Words flow again via a battered Sprint Samsung and mercifully, within seconds, I am immersed. I am not thinking of racist assholes or how they hate my gender. I am listening too mindfully for such torment. Which is why I don’t notice the man with dreads in the Coogi sweater who is suddenly in my face.
“Excuse me, sweetheart, I’m not tryin’ to bother you, but what’s your name?”
I shake my head and smile politely, pointing to my cellphone with the hand which can barely balance my massive umbrella. I stupidly assume he’ll understand that I am otherwise involved and move on…I want to close my eyes so I can better focus on the voice and the rather important words which I have to hear. It’s a no-win situation; this call HAS to occur RIGHT NOW, when it’s suddenly (and much to my surprise) least convenient for me. I resist the desire to let my eyelids fall because more men are headed my way and I’m starting to feel vulnerable. Can I get a hearty WTF? I’m not dressed up or done up. I can’t remember if I applied deodorant today, it’s been so hectic with errands, appointments and attempts at unpacking. I’m not polished, I’m drenched. And I’m not smiling, I’m frowning. What about ANY of that invites such stubborn attempts at interaction?
“Sweetheart. Sweetheart. I’m tryin’ to tawk to you.”
“I understand that, but I can’t talk right now, I’m really sorry.”
“Well, maybe you can just keep me warm under that big ole umbrella of yours.” He moves in closer as he says this, until he’s touching me. I’m slightly cornered and I instantly want to bolt.
“I’m sorry, I’m not interested. I’m on the phone. WITH MY BF.”
Blatant lie, but so is the apology. May I please have another order of WTF? Why am I the one saying “sorry”?
“Well, tell your man that I ain’t tryin’ to fuck ya, I’m just attemptin’ to holla at his girl.”
More laughter from the pea-brained gallery and the voice on the other end is concomitantly appalled and concerned about my location and my odds.
I’m about to state a definitive “leave me alone” when just as quickly as Coogi and Co. came, they’re off. The sigh I heave is so audible, it freaks out a random dog being walked four feet away.
“I’m fine, wait, what was I saying? No, wait, what were YOU saying? I’m so sorry about this…”
“Excuse me miss, can you keep me dry?”
OH MY GOD. WHY? WHY!
“No. No, I cannot keep you dry. Please go away, I am on the phone.”
“I ain’t tryin’ to hurt you, I’m just tryin’ to get under that umbrella.”
I want to heave this luxurious, sturdy behemoth in to the nearest public trash can. Or pretend it’s a spear and lob it through a neck, any neck of any man who has harassed me in the last 20 minutes.
“I’m talking to my boyfriend. I just want to talk to my boyfriend. Please leave me alone. It’s not even really raining anymore.”
I have no idea why I toss in that last bit of dilettante meteorology or more relevantly, why this umbrella has been the instrument of my doom and then–
“Your boyfriend, huh? What is he, white?”
“I don’t see how this is any of your business, but my (entirely non-existant) boyfriend is Indian.”
“What you couldn’t find an Ethiopian? Bitch.”
I can’t win.
Did I actually, stupidly complain about invisibility last week? I’m so sorry. No, really, this time, I am. If they canÂ’t see me, they canÂ’t say unpleasant things to me…right?
Holy shit my head’s spinning, I don’t think I can take it! Where is my legendary Punjabi stubborness when I need it?? Must….have……glass of….scotch…put it on my head
I haven’t read all the comments so forgive me if this has already been written…but I really suggest to everyone, males and females, to get to your nearest Krav Maga training center and take a few classes. This is NOT karate or tae-kwon do..this is kick your ass-street defense created by Israelis. Please check it out..there is a training center in several states..definitley one in Cali (several), New York City and Long Island, Boston, D.C. I urge you guys to look into it.
Mitali Perkins said “Somebody may have already pointed this out in the tome of comments, but some of our Muslim sisters argue that the niqab liberates them from worrying about this kind of abuse.”
Even if women covered themselves from head to toeÂ… I donÂ’t think itÂ’ll stop abuse from jerks.
IÂ’m not muslim but been covering myself with a big scarf due to protecting/hiding wounds from an recent accident. Let me tell youÂ… hiding most of your face doesnÂ’t protect you from lewd comments from men. IÂ’ve been told by some disgusting men how they would like to tie me up with my scarf and do blah, blahÂ… how they wanna take it off, and do blah, blah.. I even had a guy touch my scarf and say “ooh that feels nice” while I was waiting in line at the post office! I turned around and said WTF dont f’n touch me. The guy looked shocked like he didn’t expect someone like me to say anyhting back and he was like “all said was your scarfs nice.” Some jerks don’t get that ‘look but don’t’ touch concept.
I am a punjabi and that is not a punjabi culture. That is a Delhi culture…to showoff. Everybody does it in Delhi, whether they are Punjabis, UPites, Biharis etc.
In Bombay it is a different culture. People are so busy they don’t have time to ponder on what other people think of them. Punjabis don’t flaunt their money. In Bombay no one has time to do that and no one cares.
I think I have seen worse domestic violence in Bihar. The men there are so violent and the whole state is not really safe. How come no one reports the stats for abuse in Bihar? A girl will get assaulted so quickly there, it is sad. I think not many report it in Bihar because the police is as corrupt as the civilians. You are better off remaining in your home in the evenings, not going out without someone with you etc.
260
And strangely I’ve had the opposite experience, in NYC and elsewhere. I have unfortunately experienced lewd vulgar street-attention from all types of men, regardless of status, color, or national origin.
As for whether the approach is the same with white women, given that I Code White a fair percentage of the time, I’ll tell you that the approach is equally heinous.
It amazes me the ability men have to exceed their capacity for boorishness and utter contempt for women. Most men are sensible human beings I know, but at times like these and with the hindsight of history, I cannot but be ashamed.
Holy Crap! Leave JoAT alone! Geez people, I think you just WANT to read into things so you can get a high off of posting a really dramatic post. Give me a break. Are we really going to go through this many comments on the technicalities of one of her sentences? You know what she meant but you WANT to keep reading into it to make it a bigger deal. I completely agree with her.
I grew up in the Bay Area where cultures/backgrounds were very mixed together (a far cry from where I live now). So I would never say that all people of one culture are x or y. But if you go by your personal experiences, you find that in some cases certain ethnicities are always the ones performing a certain action – in this case, harassing you. I’m Punjabi, I married an amazing Punjabi man, yet I will admit that out of all Indians, I have been harassed by Punjabis the most. Sometimes it’s funny (oye billo! from across the street), other times it’s nasty (invading my space at a party), but, yes they’re usually Punjabi. A lot of people in this culture are messed up, but just as many are not. Hell, my husband is the anti-punjabi if I compare him to the guys I just mentioned. But why can’t a woman speak freely about her personal experiences without everyone else jumping to the conclusion that she’s bitchslapping an entire race/culture?
Again, stop reading into things that aren’t there and don’t judge people who are speaking about their own personal experiencs.
Don’t ever mention body parts. And don’t take it personally if we’re defensive. This can often be the result of things like the origial post that most of us deal with on a daily basis. It’s hard for us (maybe just me?) sometimes to tell the good ones from the not-so-good.
Heres my question though. What good does it do to point out the race of the men who harrass you?
I know that black men are more likely to go in and approach a woman, and this can be irritating if you just want to go from point A to point B. But I find it hard to believe that most of these men are regularly crossing the line from showing interest to harrassment. I avoid the attention not because I feel unsafe, but because I am not interested in anyone who tries to approach me.
I’m a woman of African descent and have experienced the same type of crass, beligerant harrassment from lowlife males of African descent – black. Recently, two pulled up beside me in traffic and proceeded to twirl their toungues at me in a disgusting sexual way. When you tell them to leave you alone they come from the angle of “You think you’re too good”…I’ve often wondered if boys like this felt that this way of treating women is part of their racial identity as, is this part of being Black to them? I’ve been harrassed by Hispanic boys, but the way some boys of African/Black ancestry do this in unmatched as far as how disgusting they can be with someone they do not know and know nothing about.
I’m not anti-African/Black male as this is whom I’ve dated in my life, for the most part, but this is just something I’ve noticed.
It’s like they look for women at their worst to hopefully make them feel so bad about themselves so to give them what they want, or allow their inner demons to manifest themselves fully. This is the the reason why if I’m among the company of men of African/black descent who have certain mannerisms or speech patterns, I get away as soon as possible.
Perhaps that’s stereotyping, but oh well!
WTF is right.
Absolutely none. I’m not even sure why it came up in my head for me to write that. In hindsight had I realized it would cause such melee I would never have written that.
I had a discussion with someone a few days ago about this issue and I got fired up about it. A co-worker who just moved here from Michigan and I were walking down the street and these two guys came up to us and were so lewd it took me a few minutes to even register what they were saying. When we stared walking away one of them grabbed her hand and it filled me with such rage. This happens all the time. My coworker says “I cant believe I didn’t experience this in Michigan and I get this everday, what is wrong with these guys and why the hell is it always Black and Hispanic men?” We ended up having a long dragged out discussion about this at work with another girl who is South American who agreed but interestingly she also said she actually enjoyes the attention. It sort of freaked me out and left a bad taste in my mouth.
Incidentally it also turned out to be the day NPR aired the Hollaback segment and we all listened to it. I guess it stuck with me. I was looking thru some stats on the web and was disappointed to find out that NYC doesn’t really have anything, there is nothing out there to address this issue in general. I’ve written about this in the past myself. I did however unfortunately find opinions out there that reflected my experience.
My intention was never to start a flame war which I’m terribly sorry for starting.
I envisioned throwing a grenade into their jeep, but when I calmed down the grenade turned into a carton of eggs. I’m lucky that I don’t tote a gun as some of my friends do – I’d kill someone.
Tamasha, you’ve got the most beautiful, sparkling, soulful eyes. You completely blow me away every time I see you.
it’s more socioeconomic class than race – i’ve never seen affluent black/hispanic males act in lewd or offensive ways to women on the streets; the fact that in NYC, the poor/working class are disproportionately black/hispanic would explain some of the female posters’ experiences in NYC
the above, however, doesn’t follow for teenagers or college (particularly frat) boys who are usually lewd/offensive regardless of class or race
I hate to be cliche, but I think it has to do with the sexual legacy left by colonism and slavery here in the US. In my opinion, the problem is manifested by media influences. We are seeing the fruits of the initial aggressors that began this montage of cultural and ethnic blends manifest themselves. Modern American society hails from a grossly chauvenistic past, the minorities bore the brunt of this. This nastiness is embedded in our psyches, which is why for many women this type of behavior is embraced.
A while I go I listed to a local syndicate of a nationally known African-American radio show. They were having a discussion on how men are being jailed for ‘coming on to’ or ‘complimenting’ women. They made light of it, “So, if I holla at you and tell you that you have a nice ass I deserve to go to jail?”, one of the disc jockeys asked. However I am sure that this is due to more degrading and snide remarks being made.
I don’t know about that. It all depends on who can get away with it; who has nothing to loose if this behavior is brought to light. The last boys that harrassed me where by no means poor. They were well groomed and I noticed fraternity and collegiate embellishements on the pratically new luxury vehicle they were riding in.
Perhaps they hailed from low socioeconomic status, but surely that’s not where they are now. They should know better.
Also, Anna started this entire thread by describing being violently grabbed (on one ocassion) and called a slut by a bunch of white frat boys (on another), neither poor nor minority.
I know the neighborhood. I remember being extra vigilant while walking two female friends home from a salsa club there, and wading through pools of drunken white guys. My entire body language changed – I was up on the balls of my feet, my hands were out of my pockets, and I was constantly scanning around me. This wasn’t some macho bullshit thing, it was basic situational awareness.
This is not my opinion, just a funny SNL skit.
317 · Sonia Kaur on October 7, 2006 11:25 AM · Direct link
Bingo! Thank you. Apparently, she can’t.
Yeah I know what she meant. Let me vent about something bad that happened and if its racist, thats an afterthought.
Men with nothing to lose who feel threatened and demeaned are demeaning other people. Is that so hard to figure out?
You could let this comment go; but its jarring on SepiaMutiny, seeing as we maybe artificially spend a lot of time being nice, polite, and empathetic. In the real world, a whole lot of stuff goes on and I am sure no one has an hour discussion about it. This is a blog where people endlessly hash over things.
And the other thing is; you’re leaving Punjabi men out in the cold by letting the stereotypes go. Thats just a simple fact of the matter. Like I said, no one has a sign over their head saying “I’m not that kind of brown man”
And these men just happen to be overwhelmingly black and hispanic. That’s all she’s pointing out.
People, can we move on from the rehashing of what JoAT said? Share your own personal experiences any way you want, just don’t make gross generalizations about groups and don’t keep going back to the original issue of what she may or may not have meant. Every time I feel like the thread has moved on, somebody new comes on line and we return to the same point.
p.s. I don’t know how many times I have to say sharing your own experiences is fine but gross generalizations or racist statements are not. I’ve said that each and every time I’ve explained my objection, and people still keep saying “what’s wrong with sharing my personal experience”. Nothing at all.
Yeah. So then the other point, since this is a forum that also includes desi men is, the flipside is when a man of color does soething disgusting, its often turned into a racial stigma. And then you add in the junk being said about Punjabi people. So thats what I and other people would object to, in dramatic and florid language. No where have I seen anyone lay into JOAT, and certainly I haven’t.
The problem is that she was doing just that, sharing her personal experiences, and is being judged for it. If that’s her experience, that’s her experience. How can anyone say it isn’t.
Sahej & Non von Mises,
For the record, I’ve been to Southall many, many times and not once have I seen this kind of behaviour myself. Not by Sikh guys — and again for the record, most Punjabis in Britain are Sikh, although there is a sizeable minority of Hindu Punjabis too — and as Sahej alluded, there may be some cultural differences between the two groups, even though most 2nd-Gen Sikhs in the UK are non-Keshdhari. I’ve certainly never seen Sikh guys behave like that towards Punjabi women in that area, although there is definitely a long track record of Pakistani Muslim guys in the Southall area harassing Sikh women. Given the cultural developments within the desi population in the UK during the past 35 years, hassling a Sikh woman (or any desi woman who is on good terms with some Sikhs) is liable to get you beaten up by a bunch of her “brothers”, as I mentioned before.
During the summer months, it is common for young local guys with nice cars to drive up and down Southall’s main streets with their in-car stereos playing bhangra loudly; but again, I’ve never heard of them hassling women passing by. Hell, my mother loves going shopping in Southall because she feels the locals are always so polite and respectful to her and my father. Hardly a hotbed of intimidation and harassment.
However, I guess we should give DesiDawg the benefit of the doubt again and take him at his word, although I think it could have been a one-off incident or possibly a case of mistaken identity, given the tendency of some local Pakistanis to harass Indian women there, as I mentioned above.
The points made by Gal Sun and Been_there_done_that are very relevant, ie:
Now can everyone just focus on the main issue, which is racist sexual harassment of South Asian women by non-desi men. Let’s try to avoid yet another threadjacking where people use this as an excuse for yet more internecine anti-Punjabi/anti-Sikh finger-pointing; this is becoming a frequent occurance on Sepia Mutiny, for some reason.
This problem requires unity and focus, amongst South Asians of all backgrounds. Non-desi American guys who behave in such an atrocious way towards desi women will not give a damn if their “target” is Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Mallu, Tamil or anything else.
Sorry dawg .. I was out of the thread all afternoon/evening yesterday and just read through it all this morning and commented =)
And ps, why does it matter who you date? Date Captain John McJohnson III; its be much more reassuring to not perpetuate stereotypes about men of color
What I saw was people bringing out there reaction to what the initial comment was, in some cases explaining why they disagree with the initial statement or why their reaction to it was what it was. I’m not seeing a lot of judging. I did not see many people say; JOAT you have not experienced this, you are lying.
BTW, I am not focusing on JOAT anymore, hopefully this is more about the sentiment
Punjabi are fun-loving, kind and very generous people.
Go to punjab…people (strangers) call you into their homes and give you very RICH lassi and rotis swimming in Ghee. My Gujju friend took a road trip from Bombay to Kullu Manali. Only in punjab he got the most warm hospitality and free, rich food. People are so kind there…it is infectious.
In Punjab, during festivals, people give out free food. You can take 1, 2, 100…they don’t ask. They will give you more. If it finishes, they will go and get more (and they won’t charge you or ask you to pay!)
In Gujju homes, from what I have heard, if you go visit them, people say “oh I hope you have eaten and come”. I have seen that only in some gujju people, not all. I will NOT generalize gujju people because of that.
Punjabis are usually the life of the party. My friend has been attending a new years party here and she said last year was the most fun because Punjabis attended too. You can’t have an indian party without a Punjabi song…try it!!!!
That my dear punjabi-haters IS PUNJABI CULTURE!!!!
“…I noticed fraternity and collegiate embellishements.”
I don’t think we are disagreeing – I agree that regardless of class/race young men, particulary the frat boy type, can be lewd or offensive – part of this is immaturity, alcohol plays more than a minor role and a lot of it is outgrown w/ age (not that that fact makes it any more acceptable as you are experiencing it).
I generally don’t think men of a certain level of affluence act in the ways complained. I don’t think that they are necessarily better men, I just think that affluent men generally have a lot more to lose (reputation, the attention of affluent women, etc.) and generally tend to disassociate themselves from behaviors of the working class. I.e., I think affluent men who are assholes are usually assholes in entirely different ways.
That being said, the usual disclaimers apply – no, not all working class men are jerks, I would never say that, and yes, sometimes affluent men are as overtly asshole-ish as their working class brothers can be.
Alot of nonsense on this board. You Indian’s think your so rich and so “proper” because a few Indian’s out of a billion of you made it to the promised land! Well guess what? You go to India and there is just as many Indian jag off’s as there are black’s and hispanic’s. In fact since there are a billion Indian’s in the world I bet there are more dirty, ill-minded Indian’s in the world as there are a total number of Blacks in the world, good and bad.
Who the hell do you people think you are? I know! You think your the world model for the perfect race. Well last time I checked the “perfect race” doesnt have to struggle to find it’s way out of the 3rd world label.
Have any of you seen “Born into brothel’s” ?
If you have then, who do those Indian women in that documentary remind you of? DING DING DING! Your right, they are the equvalent of the poor black woman in America. Dont forget where you come from! You come from a country with alot of poverty and alot of scum and your parents left that place in a hurry.
Then come’s the 2nd generation, with their “We are just like white people” attitude and look down upon people like black’s and wonder why they are so dirty! Well if your ancestor’s were shitted on for the last 400 hundred year’s then you would be “dirty” also. Think about it!! Blacks struggled for hundred’s of years in this country and their struggle made it easy for your brown asses to become doctor’s and what ever else in this country and how do Indian’s show respect for that? They just look down on them like every other elitst.
ShalloThinker – Buy it – Read it – Learn it
ajk – a lot of frat boys I know drive far more expensive cars than I do, and have grown up with far more privilege.
Ennis,
My comments above were that regardless or race or class, young men (particularly frat boy types)display the behavior being complained of regardless of race or class. That being said, there is a class distinction in behavior outside of the young male group.
sorry, you know how the above sentence should read…
This affects all women, both intra- and inter-racially. Harassment is just that, no matter who does it or experiences it. I didn’t post to feed into any racist generalizations, but to agree, as a woman of African descent, that I have noticed the same thing. I’m not implying that it’s global or widespread, but that I’ve experienced this more than my fair share of times living on the east coast (NC).
I agree. Affluent men have different arenas to be a-holes in. A top notch doctor/attorney can be just as skeevy, if not worse, but they’ll do it in different circles. Skeeviness transcends class/race/etc. You’ll just see it expressed in different ways based on various factors. But, no matter what background a man is from, if he’s been raised right, JoAT, Anna, and a lot of other women wouldn’t have to deal with this crap.
No there isn’t. Doctors molest patients. Investment bankers grope and leer at secretaries and colleagues. Presidents take advantage of interns; congressmen take advantage of pages. These attempts to somehow rank the behavior of different cultures, ethnicities and class groups within one society that they all together inhabit, are spurious and unproductive. JOAT reported that when going around NYC she is harassed by Black and Latino men. Tamasha reports that when going around NYC she is harassed by men of all ethnicities. DesiDancer reports that when living in NYC she was harassed by men of all ethnicities. Anna’s original story that launched this conversation features disgusting behavior by men of several ethnicities. White fratboys get drunk and shout rude things at women and think they can get away with pawing and groping. Black fratboys do the same thing. Mixed groups of men do the same thing too. It’s well known that the majority of rapes are committed by people the victim knows or is related to. Women get raped all over the country in every ethnic community. Ergo, there are rapists all over the country in every ethnic community. Moreover, the “culture” of one community influences that of every other, and vice versa. So, black rappers disrespect black video hoes? Well, white owner record companies contract for that kind of music. Is white culture’s tendency to exploit other cultures to blame? Or is it black culture’s tendency to disrespect women? Chicken or egg? It’s neither, not least because there is nothing hotwired into a white man that forces him to exploit, and nothing hotwired into a black man that forces him to harass. The whole argument is riven with fallacies.
So what are we going to do? Go into endless analysis of the relative propensity to harass, disrespect and harm women on the part of men of different class, ethnic, regional or religious backgrounds? Or take a fucking stand against this behavior wherever and whenever it occurs?
As the rapper said, “It ain’t where you from, it’s where you at.” Handle your own business before you start tarring broad categories of people with your brush. Examine yourself first. Hold yourself to a high standard and live by it. Help the people around you to live by a high standard too. Lead by example. Do some good.
Peace
^^^IAWTC. Well said.
Amen!
been_there_seen_that:
What you said in #339 is correct…but there is a big cultural and personality difference between people living in Punjab (especially rural Punjab where the values you described are the most pronounced) and 2nd gen kids living in desi areas like Queens and Vancouver, where a strange hybrid of some of the worst aspects of both Western (specifically hip-hop) and Indian cultural traits has emerged, without many of the good points of either. I simply can’t understand why desi kids in Vancouver, for example, with comfortable suburban homes, good schools, intact families, lots of opportunities, should be so attracted to thuggishness and gangsterism. I know it’s ‘cool’ and all, but where does it leave you once you get past your 20s? Southall, as Jai described, has retained some of the good traits of 1st gen culture even among the 2nd/3rd gen, especially basic respect for people, but I have seen desi boys totally out of control in NY/NJ area here in America on many occasions. Pure badtameezi…and they couldn’t care less if you are twice or even thrice their age, whether you’re a man or woman, whatever…
“The indigenous culture of the south is more intact than that of the north which provides for solid cultural grounding. North Indians have defintely lost their moorings and do not have a dominant, forecful culture like the so-called ABCD’s do to tether themselves to.”
From my experience I’d say it’s quite the opposite. Regional indian cinema is no way as comparitively ‘cool’ as bollywood is, ditto for carnatic music vs. bhangra… It is no surprise that south indians are usually the first to lose their ‘cultural identity’….
ask jay chandrasekhar or m.night shamayalan if they know any tamil…
actually in my experience sri lankan tamils are usually more into south indian culture than south indians are..
Siddhartha, VERY good points. THAT’S why I read this blog!
Siddharta,
No one could logically derive from what I wrote that I was saying that only poor/working class men sexually harrass or intimidate women. Thank you, but I do realize that sexual predators come from various ethnicities and classes. If you had read my comments carefully, you would have understood that.
I was referring very specifically to the type of behavior being complained of – sexual harasment which works not just to intimidate women, but to also embarass them in a very public fashion – on the street, usually w/ a crowd of other men and people present. It is the public nature of the behavior that I was commenting about. This type of very public behavior is generally class-based and there are pretty good reasons for it. I was simply adding my observation in response to many of the other observations above.
That being said, I have said that very young frat-boy type men, usually engage in this type of behavior, regardless of race or class. This will be the 3rd time I am saying this.
I am not sure what your rant about rapists have to do with my comment. For the record, yes, I acknowledge that men of all races and classes commit rape. I, however, was not talking about rape.
And no, I didn’t appreciate the undeserved preaching. Save it, please.
I’m gonna need you to learn more about what hip-hop is before you equate an entire sub-culture with gangsterism.
Oneup, I did say “without many of the GOOD POINTS OF EITHER”.
HMF –
I think I can explain it to you, having been on the receiving end of sexual harrassement in India at least, oh, 500 times, though I think the number is closer to 1,000, but allow me to be generous.
The majority of it takes place in North India. This is acknowledged by Indians themselves.
You were in Bangaluru, which is South.
However, just the fact that more than one staff arrived on the scene to confirm that all was OK, indicates to me that they have a history of guys talking to girls in not OK ways, and now they have taken measures to prevent it. In fact, I read this very thing about Bangaluru just recently in the news. They are a city that is cracking down and the rest of India would do well to follow suit.
It is precisely because there is so much restriction between casual male/female dealings in India that this kind of behaviour takes place. Now, one may ask, in cultures which aren’t so restrictive, why does it then take place. Good question and one which I am trying to sort out myself.
I think it might have something to do with a type of male bonding which escalates testestorone levels and testosterone fueled behaviour. I say this because of the reference to;
a. Frat boys b. Black men c. Hispanic men d. Construction workers
Regarding JOAT’s comments; It was obvious to me that she was saying the black and hispanic men who are harrassing women are disgusting because of their behaviour. I never once assumed she thought they were disgusting because they were black and hispanic, and I’m surprised to see some took it that way. To me her point was obvious.
And I think a case might be made that in their communities, cat-calling is a successful way of picking up women. I have seen this ALOT amongst my black and hispanic male friends – the ones who lack refinement in their dealings with women. And the women who respond positively to them are themselves also lacking in refinement. The ones who are more refined do not engage in such behaviour.
By “refined” I mean, more well-mannered, cultured, intellectual, etc…
This includes white Frat boys too. They are not exactly what I would refer to as “refined individuals” by any means. And I am not trying to stereotype all Frat boys or black and hispanic men. I am referring specificially to the ones who engage in this sort of behaviour. Which, according to what I’m reading here, seems to be alot.
Anyway, amongst some people, this hootin and hollerin is considered a perfectly legitimate way to pick up members of the opposite gender. I’ve seen some women do it also.
I most certainly am not going to save it. I was responding to your comment about class, but I was also responding to the entirety of this thread so far. Perhaps I should have made that clear. Moreover, I did read your comments carefully, as well as all the other comments on this thread. Your distinction between hooting and hollering on the one hand, and other forms of aggression against women on the other hand, is a false distinction. The dignity of women is impinged upon in many ways in this society. Hooting and hollering is just one way. For the record, I contest your claim that hooting and hollering is a particularly lower-class activity. But even if it were, we need to look at the entire spectrum of how men intimidate and disrespect women in our society. And we most closely need to look at the way we and people around us behave, because that is where we have the most power to make an immediate change.
If you think that’s preaching, so be it. Personally, I’d rather listen to a good sermon than to half-baked pseudo-sociology that distracts from the real issues.
.
Kind of cool how even without officially changing its name, the desi version of ‘Bangalore’ is catching on…
Ikram, you could have a point there. I’ve seen black men assume some Indian women to be of West Indian cultural origin, which tends to be way less conservative than India’s culture, regarding sexuality and male/female relationships. Or, they assume (East) Indian culture is similar in that regard to West Indian culture.