A few hours ago, when I left my new apartment for dinner at Heritage India (Connecticut Ave), rain was escaping the night sky with such fury and speed, my golf umbrella was barely adequate and my mukluks were soaked. They are lined with sheepskin, which is now wet and disgusting. My toes are miserable. I’m barely cognizant of this though, because I’m on the phone, having the most important conversation of my day. I’m so involved with this voice, I barely notice the mile which I’ve walked uphill, the road I’ve made a right turn on, the periodic hordes of people on Adams Morgan’s 18th street, on this dead-because-it’s-wet-and-miserable night.
I should be at my new home, snuggled in my, um, Aerobed, but I have no internet access yet, so Tryst (a much-loved haunt of our Manish’s) has gone from third-place to first place in my life, for the moment. I don’t want to go inside and be the idiot on her cell phone though, so I’m hunched over my umbrella handle while I shiver mindlessly right outside the giant picture window, directly across from “my table“; practically on the sidewalk, it’s close to an electrical outlet and the perfect size for one. It’s also almost exactly where I sit when I’m at Greco. Some call me boring, I prefer consistent.
I’m in the middle of responding to a worrisome revelation when a group of frat-tastic retards lurches past, reeking of sweat and bad alcohol. I’m less vexed by such roving stupidity than some of my friends, mostly because unlike them, I was “Greek” and thus constantly around similar. I turn away from them slightly as they stagger by, wishing Maisnon were here; one of the last times we were together in the Morg, I was grabbed so violently, you could see marks the next day. Well before THAT sickening reminder of ickiness manifested itself in my flesh, our girl became Our Lady of Terrifying Rage. Approximately two minutes after Filthy McNastyman’s fingers defiled my arm, she accosted the pulayadi mon who startled and then offended me. “You do NOT do that”, she ranted, right in his face, as his innards liquefied in the face of her wrath. Ah, good times. But why was I thinking these thoughts? I had no need for such big guns. Nothing was going to happen to me…
“Jewugingglut”
Wait, what? Immediately, I hit a mental rewind even as I strained to listen to the voice currently inhabiting my cell-phone. WAIT. OMG. No. He. Didn’t. I dropped the phone right then from ear to hip and shouted in to the bastardÂ’s wake.
“What the hell did you just say to me??”
He turned back, the look on his face scaring me so much I think I whimpered for Deepa, my Mom and/or my ferocious, late German Shepherd Rani. “I saaaaid, YOU FUCKING SLUT.” This opportunity I had given him to repeat misogynistic filth tickled his friends to no end; they laughed so hard at his courage and genius that they were choking. Two of them slapped him on the back. Oh yeah. You showed me!
The toxic disrespect in his eyes had made my blood go cold, now I felt like I was being microwaved. Shaking replaced shivering, livid indignation supplanting any discomfort with weather. Without pondering or hesitating, I yelled back a suggestion for what he could do with himself, but I felt impotent, despite it. It was painful. If I hadn’t said anything, I would’ve felt steamrolled by him and undone by regret; I did say something and what came next made it all so much worse.
“Fuck that slut.”
“Nah, man. She’s Indian. They’re not sluts.”
“You would know.”
“Hey did that bitch taste like curry when you ate her?”
I obviously don’t know what sort of taste had been left in his mouth at the past point these Neanderthals were referencing, but I knew what the acrid sensation in my mouth meant.
“What just happened? Whom were you shouting at? Where are you? Is it safe?”
“Some guy…just called me “slut”. Twice. I didn’t feel like accepting it, soÂ…anyway I’m in Adams Morgan, in front of Tryst. And no, in some ways I do not feel safe.”
“Some stranger just walked by and called you such a name?”
“Yeah. This day gets better by the MINUTE. I hate this neighborhood. Or, more accurately, the type of entirely-challenged jackass it attracts.”
I try and remind the person IÂ’m conversing with what we were talking about, because they had been in the middle of relating something important; I barely manage to do this effectively. I can’t stop considering pepper spray. Or German Shepherds.
Words flow again via a battered Sprint Samsung and mercifully, within seconds, I am immersed. I am not thinking of racist assholes or how they hate my gender. I am listening too mindfully for such torment. Which is why I don’t notice the man with dreads in the Coogi sweater who is suddenly in my face.
“Excuse me, sweetheart, I’m not tryin’ to bother you, but what’s your name?”
I shake my head and smile politely, pointing to my cellphone with the hand which can barely balance my massive umbrella. I stupidly assume he’ll understand that I am otherwise involved and move on…I want to close my eyes so I can better focus on the voice and the rather important words which I have to hear. It’s a no-win situation; this call HAS to occur RIGHT NOW, when it’s suddenly (and much to my surprise) least convenient for me. I resist the desire to let my eyelids fall because more men are headed my way and I’m starting to feel vulnerable. Can I get a hearty WTF? I’m not dressed up or done up. I can’t remember if I applied deodorant today, it’s been so hectic with errands, appointments and attempts at unpacking. I’m not polished, I’m drenched. And I’m not smiling, I’m frowning. What about ANY of that invites such stubborn attempts at interaction?
“Sweetheart. Sweetheart. I’m tryin’ to tawk to you.”
“I understand that, but I can’t talk right now, I’m really sorry.”
“Well, maybe you can just keep me warm under that big ole umbrella of yours.” He moves in closer as he says this, until he’s touching me. I’m slightly cornered and I instantly want to bolt.
“I’m sorry, I’m not interested. I’m on the phone. WITH MY BF.”
Blatant lie, but so is the apology. May I please have another order of WTF? Why am I the one saying “sorry”?
“Well, tell your man that I ain’t tryin’ to fuck ya, I’m just attemptin’ to holla at his girl.”
More laughter from the pea-brained gallery and the voice on the other end is concomitantly appalled and concerned about my location and my odds.
I’m about to state a definitive “leave me alone” when just as quickly as Coogi and Co. came, they’re off. The sigh I heave is so audible, it freaks out a random dog being walked four feet away.
“I’m fine, wait, what was I saying? No, wait, what were YOU saying? I’m so sorry about this…”
“Excuse me miss, can you keep me dry?”
OH MY GOD. WHY? WHY!
“No. No, I cannot keep you dry. Please go away, I am on the phone.”
“I ain’t tryin’ to hurt you, I’m just tryin’ to get under that umbrella.”
I want to heave this luxurious, sturdy behemoth in to the nearest public trash can. Or pretend it’s a spear and lob it through a neck, any neck of any man who has harassed me in the last 20 minutes.
“I’m talking to my boyfriend. I just want to talk to my boyfriend. Please leave me alone. It’s not even really raining anymore.”
I have no idea why I toss in that last bit of dilettante meteorology or more relevantly, why this umbrella has been the instrument of my doom and then–
“Your boyfriend, huh? What is he, white?”
“I don’t see how this is any of your business, but my (entirely non-existant) boyfriend is Indian.”
“What you couldn’t find an Ethiopian? Bitch.”
I can’t win.
Did I actually, stupidly complain about invisibility last week? I’m so sorry. No, really, this time, I am. If they canÂ’t see me, they canÂ’t say unpleasant things to me…right?
With me, I know it’s because of the brown skin. I don’t think they’re necessarily the same way with white women
mebee quantitatively less, i don’t know, but most of my females friends (white) observe the same (not with blacks as none live around there, but latino day laborers). also the same with lower class whites (“white trash”). a friend of mine who lives in the upper west side told me that she hadn’t understood how poor whites behaved until she went to college upstate. her contention was that in NYC that whites tend to be young professionals, artists or monied. you don’t get much of the “coarser” blue collar types, those roles go to non-whites.
I think this might be better.
Hat tip to Looney Tunes and Acme.
Holy moly, Anna! I’m feel sick for you. Isn’t that weird, I was never harassed for 27 years living in the U.S. (nor were most of my friends), and since I came to London, it’s been disgusting. I thought harassment of women in clubs and on the street was just a British thing. 🙂 Yesterday on the train I heard the woman behind me start freaking out. “Could you get your arm out of my space?” One minute later: “I already told you, could you get your arm out of my space? What’s wrong with you? Is this what they do in your country? Where are you from? Sri Lanka?” “Yes.” “Is this what men do to women in your country?” I was like, bloody hell, what’s going on and who is this chick guessing at some dude’s origins? I finally got a look at them when I got off the train, and it was a British Asian woman, sitting next to a very very dark, barrel-chested Asian man with his arms crossed.
A question to all the SM ladies… When you are a guy at a cafe or at a bar….and you see a girl… what would be an UNdisrespectful way of approaching her? because disrespecting someone, is never the objective…
Anna: I am so sorry to hear about this! When I lived in Bombay I was so used to this that whenever I go to NYC I have the same Bombay instincts, elbows out, sharp kada…..too bad you are in my space because you aren’t meant to be there! About catcalls I would ignore but if something ridiculous happens, you have to show that you are not vulnerable!
A N N A, I feel the anger and frustration as though it happened to me, because variations on those scenarios have, in fact, happened to me. Also the repeated following by the same creepy guy on a subway over the course of several weeks when I was a teenager taking the train to school. Uchh.
I do want to chime in on the martial arts thing. Forgive me if I’m repeating what someone else said. I haven’t been able to read through all the comments here. (How do y’all do it?? I got home after a full day out and there are 246 comments to sift through, just on one post!) I got pretty close to earning a black belt in a Korean martial art. Then life and circumstances led me in other directions. But I do remember the satisfaction of seeing what I could actually do. I’ve broken boards on my head and with speed kicks, and put guys who were much bigger than I am in headlocks. But it’s true that even with that background and training, one can freeze in the middle of an actual confrontation. Someone very close to me was mugged right downstairs from my apartment one evening. He was a third degree black belt. His immediate reaction was to just give the guys (there were two of them, with knives) everything he had, and avoid a fight. He managed to get away with just a bruised jaw (although he did lose his laptop, phone, palm pilot, wallet, etc.) So all in all it was a good outcome. But he was furious at himself for not making note of what they guys looked like, and for not trying to overpower them. They were holding their knives out away from them in a manner that indicated that they clearly didn’t know how to use them well. Here he was, somone who’d sparred four armed black belts for his last test, and he felt he’d just frozen. It turned out it was the right thing to do, but he was seething, and felt violated (especially since these guys now had all his information, contacts, e-mails, etc) and helpless. Did martial arts really help him? Who knows. Perhaps his training gave him the presence of mind to not fight back, and in a situation in which his physical being was being threatened, that was good. I don’t know. I get so furious and so enraged at the feeling of helplessness when I’m being harassed, but whenever I think of actually retorting something, I worry that the guy in question is a complete freak and will come after me with an HIV-tainted syringe or something. So I just get myself out of the situation as fast as possible and then indulge in all kinds of fantasies of torture, without feeling any guilt. And I do make sure to always be aware of my surroundings: where the exits are, how many people are around, who looks like someone I could ask for help, whether my cell phone has a signal, etc.
I do notice a change in my behavior recently, though. The other day, I was in a playground, and some drunken jerk shuffled over to lean (on the outside) against the fence that surrounds the playground. He was staring at me. My daughter and I were about ten feet away from him, on a bench. He started calling things out to me. I ignored him, and encouraged my daughter to go play further away. But then he started talking to her, and of course, as a two year old, she stared at him and listened. He told her her mother was a “puta.” That was it. I walked over to him (staying beyond grabbing reach), looked him in the eye, and said “You’re a tall, white man in your fifties wearing workboots, a plad red shirt and jeans. You’ve got ten seconds to leave before I call the police.” Of course he said go ahead, call the police. I did, and he left, lurching down the street. What would the police do? At most they would haul him into the station and keep him until he’d sobered up. But it did feel good to do something. And the cops did show up.
Please stop complaining about what JOAT said. I agree with JOAT. No self respecting Chinaman will ever harass JOAT or any other girl because of the great cultural values given to the Asiatic man by his mother. The Negroids in NYC are a different matter altogether. The negro mother usually does a poor job of raising her sons.
Oneup wrote:
it is expected that black people who do not know each other will say hello to each other in a crowd of people. For me its less of a come on than a show of solidarity. … Black and latino men are more likely to act on their interests and I can’t blame them
Perhaps this is a cultural gap? A black man approaches a Desi woman as he would a black woman, assuming common pigmentation means common cultural attitude. Unaware that Desis belong to the pickle-up-the-ass genus of Victorian colonial culture.
That’s not to say that some cultures aren’t more misogynist than others. But without hard data, speculating on this is an invitation to anecdotal stereotyping.
Really — is there any good social science data on street level sexual harrassment? Surveys on the nature of the harrassers, their background etc?
With proper data, you could design a concerted public campaign against street sexual harrassmeny, like MADD or government sponsored anti-smoking and anti-racism campaigns. Given public will, street level sexual harrasment could be stigmatized the way workplace sexual harrasment is currently stigmatised. Maybe we can’t totally eliminate it, but we can certainly try harder.
After reading Freakanomics, I have begun to see an economic angle behind most things that happen around us. For example, a married physician is less likely to indulge in the kind of behavior which could cause him to take a trip to prison, destroy his marriage and wreck his successful practice. The level of economic progress in different races may also play a part in the perception that most harassers come from a particular race.
Also, the rich banker is probably driving his BMWer to work and you won’t be running into him at the street corner or in the metro.
The instincts may all be there but the fact that you have more to lose by your behavior can cause restraint!
Doesn’t this very story have people who seem to be of multiple ethnicities? What does that say towards this theory. Maybe it says some behavior is written off and generalized and other behavior is taken to indicate something specific. I am sure you are harrassed by men in NYC JOAT. And that sucks. Its not really a trick to turn that into a generalization like you did.
But what you’re missing is, particularly when you then generalize toward Punjabi men as well; you’re talking about us. We do not have the luxury of walking around with signs over our heads saying; “We’re not those kinds of brown men.” We will all guarenteed get this expectation at some time or other.
I would not ask you to change your opinion. However, consider how other people feel. At this point, this comment seriously deflates me. What is the use of solidarity, empathy, understanding, when people who have been reading your comments for months still think like this.
The thing I don’t think you realize is; we’re people. We’re brown men. That means something, and its not always something good. I would like to be able to say hi to women on the street and not be assumed I’m “one of them”.
And yeah, in punjabi culture, there is something that could be termed “akh tha ishara” or “akh that mukabala.” Its called a meeting of the eyes. Its not meant to be demeaning or degrading though. I am sure some idiots have acted badly and they were Punjabi. But you are generalizing and that’s a choice.
Its enough to make you want to throw up your hands; if women who have grown up with brown skinned men and have called them lovers and friends can so easily just turn to ready-made generalizations, thats not very hopeful. And the other thing is; JOAT I don’t doubt for a minute alot of other people feel the same way. Trust me, men of color do notice this difference
And yeah, in punjabi culture, there is something that could be termed “akh tha ishara” or “akh that mukabala.” Its called a meeting of the eyes.
Sahej, don’t want to generalize but the Punjabi “Mundas” at most parties I have gone to indulge in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine. Meeting of the eyes doesn’t mean you have to put your paws on every girl on the floor.
I was walking down a street in Southhall 2 years ago with a friend and his wife. They had been married the previous month and she was still wearing the “chura”-red bangles from the marriage and she wasn’t skimpily dressed-she was in a salwar kameez. The cat calls and comments were so loud and offensive that we had to cross the street. And this happened when there were two guys with her-I dread what could happen to a single woman on those streets.
if women who have grown up with brown skinned men and have called them lovers and friends can so easily just turn to ready-made generalizations, thats not very hopeful.
So what do you expect them to do? Just because you share your skin color with them, they should put up with your blatantly sexist behavior?
I haven’t described sexist behavior that needs to be accepted.
I have been in Punjabi-Diaspora areas most of my life and have never seen this. If I were to see it, I would intervene.
This is a blog for sharing ideas; I have considered JOAT’s ideas, and hold her no grudge. I wrote my ideas so they in turn might be considered
I haven’t described sexist behavior that needs to be accepted.
Sorry Sahej, I didn’t mean you. I meant that if a huge proportion of a particular group indulge in such behavior, some decent folks will also get stuck with a label. That’s sad but that’s the way it is.
I have been in Punjabi-Diaspora areas most of my life and have never seen this. If I were to see it, I would intervene.
Try and intervene when there are 15-20 guys doing this.
Say hi and introduce yourself. Really. If she isn’t interested you will know right away and can move on to someone that will appreciate your sincerity.
What can I say? Comments like these make me sincerely appreciate all the other tolerant and incredibly intelligent folks on here who inspire me every single day to be a better person. SM isnt just a addiction for me I think I would be a lesser being if I didn’t get to read the words of wisdom from the folks here like Anna, Jai, Abhi, Al Mujahid, Kush T, Ennis, Sahej, Sonia, Ismat, Red Snapper, Chickpea, Amardeep, No Von, Razib, Kobayashi, Kurma, Pooja, Oneup, Desidancer, Siddhartha, Hairy and so many others. Thank you for the comment. I just realized how offensive I may have sounded all day without trying to for you to write that and yet others were completely civil towards me. It makes me respect these people even more.
Sahej this isn’t about all Punjabi men I assure you. This isn’t some kind of a death sentence on all punjabi men but will it kill you to acknowledge that the aggressive desi boys tend to generally be from the north and aggression and harrassment has often a fine line in between.
Just as when my male friends complain that desi women have sticks up their asses and wouldn’t give them the time of day unless they were a doctor or lawyer. Just look at so many of the ads on Indiandating asking for specifically that, even when women are not themselves. I believe it. I’ve seen it. Women behave like total bitches to perfectly nice guys because they may not necessarily come across as “wealthy”. I know its not all women and I don’t take it personally but I won’t dismiss it because I know a lot of men who have had this experience.
I am a brown woman and I love brown men but we were talking about personal experiences and I’ve lived in Queens for 20 years, went to school and college here and North Indian men were always far more aggressive than men from elsewhere. And when my own boys indulge in stupidity and god knows we’ve all been guilty of stupidity I will give left arm to correct them. The thing is most of them have grown up and don’t need to be corrected. The average desi boy will be the first one to come rescue a desi girl if she was in trouble if that makes you feel any better but can we at least acknowledge that misplaced bravado can be a bad thing sometimes?
JOAT,
Nothing will kill me but what actually kills me; ;-). I would agree to anything if I thought it was true. I happen to not think its true about Punjabi people; thats as honest a statement as yours. If I saw a problem I would right quick try to solve it. For instance, I have seen Punjabi people be loud and parties and jaw at each other, so I can say that is true. I have not though seen Punjabi people mawing women.
I will be un-PC to admit your statement doesn’t come out of left field. HOWEVER, the second part is, it takes an effort to not generalize. You said you were tired, and also, maybe you were just tired of putting up with tired-ass people harrassing you for no reason. So you said what you said. I actually respect the honesty of it. I do not think you’re alone in your statement. But I am asking you to consider that brown skinned men like me will be stigmatized for these beliefs. There is a progression from your statement to the stigmatization, especially if your statement is left unconsidered.
Anyway, I think you feel under seige, but I want to say that I think you’re being left ot to dry because you’re saying what other people also believe. So I for one do not hold you as a bad person. In fact I consider you a good person for being honest, even though what you honestly said, I feel is hurtful in some general way.
If it was a huge proportion, being around enough punjabis I think I would have seen it left, right, and center. While I have seen a-holes being a-holes while being punjabi, I have not seen a-holes being a-holes because they were punjabi.
So you would have people believe you had to walk a cordon of 15-20 guys barking out lewd and threatening comments to your group to the extent you had to escape the area to be free from danger? In broad-day light in Southall UK? Ok.
So you would have people believe you had to walk a cordon of 15-20 guys barking out lewd and threatening comments to your group to the extent you had to escape the area to be free from danger? In broad-day light in Southall UK? Ok.
Sahej I didn’t say cordon. They were all standing around on the sidewalk and there were 2 others in a car with loud Punjabi rap playing that kept driving up and down. I haven’t seen such behavior even in India.
The sad part is that all 3 of us are also Punjabi and we were treated this way. My friend and his wife still live in London and they have stopped going there.
People driving in cars up and down the street with loud music blaring are stupid
People driving in cars up and down the street with loud music blaring are stupid
Let’s be honest here for a second Sahej. If this was a predominantly Tamil immigrant neighborhood such as the one near Gare du Nord in Paris or a Gujarati dominated neighborhood would this have occurred? Hell No. This can only happen in the ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi areas. Yuck!!!
Googling around, there is a Indian blogproject on street harrassment in that country
http://www.blanknoiseproject.blogspot.com/
Some cool activism, some t-shirts, and a lot of personal testimony (blogathon 2006). I haven’t gone through to see the punjabi/non-punjabi ratio.
Honestly? I think your statement is bigoted. Unless you have something useful to say I think you can find another person to peddle these ideas to
And will you accept my sincere apologies that it isn’t meant to hurt. I don’t want to drag it on. I want people to consider it. I honestly don’t go to desi concerts or Jackson heights anymore largely as a result of these situations. Interestingly there are other Indian neighborhoods now in Queens as well and this behavior is non existent there. I’ve gone to alternative desi concerts and events in central park and other places and never encountered such behavior from Indian men ever at these venues so it’s not everywhere but there are certain segments of this part of the world that are teeming with badly behaved youth that for the most part go unnoticed, ignored and worse unchecked.
Is it possible that by Punjabi you mean Sardar? Because by god Sardars are the most respectful group of desi men ever. Infact I will only get into a cab if it’s a paaji because they are the nicest peeps ever. Honestly I can safely assume that if a man is wearing a pagdi that he is without a doubt respectful towards a woman. So when I say Punjabi I really mean north Indians so I apologize if this further causes anyone ire.
I don’t think you need to apologize, but your apology is graciously excepted. JOAT, I can’t admit to something I don’t believe. I simply have not seen these people, or if I have seen them, I think of them as a-holes, not Punjabi a-holes. I know all types of people who happen to be punjabi; I have never found the stereotypes of punjabi people accurate, thats point blank. I don’t mean just Sardars, although perhaps Sardars are more cognizant of the right thing to do, as they make a choice everyday to do the right thing by putting on their Pugdi. Still, I don’t think you can generalize about anyone, even Sardars.
There are localized expectations of behavior, and where these expectations are low; as in a bar; as in a college town after a football game; as in a desi concert in Jackson Heights (which I take from your description), low expectations create bad behavior.
Other than that, maybe we both need some sleep, na? Good night JOAT. 🙂
Fair enough Sahej. Have a good night.
JOAT, I cross streets, go into tunnel vision, and pretty much make myself as unapproachable as possible to avoid having guys (mostly black) try to talk to me. You’re not alone… but by now I think you realize the problem wasn’t so much what you said, but how you said it. Don’t feel too bad.
Somebody may have already pointed this out in the tome of comments, but some of our Muslim sisters argue that the niqab liberates them from worrying about this kind of abuse. Doesn’t that put the responsibility WAY on the female end of things when it comes to maintaining respectful relationships between men and women? Inevitably, anyway, the burka of age falls and we all become invisible — especially in America. Or do we then shift to encountering agist attacks instead of sexual harassment? On that cheerful note, good night, dear Mutineers. And Anna, get another dog, why don’t you?
Some women may view it that way but I wouldn’t endorse such a view. If a women is wearing a niqab to feel protected, one must ask protected from whom? and why?
Women are too beautiful inside and out. Humanity is robbed of its humility by boxing up the better sex. Modesty is a state of being and should apply to both male and female.
Besides, callipygian is too cool of a word to waste =)
I have to agree with the comment someone made about Black and Hispanic men. I recently moved back to NYC after college and it’s been a jarring experience. I recently wore what I think of as one of the more conservative tops in my wardrobe and after being propositioned by 5-10 (black or hispanic) men, I put a leather jacket over the top although it was a warm day. It makes me feel dirty and I hate it – and it makes me hate them.
I grew up in North India..and went to college in Bombay. We had a pretty good mix in our hostel…people from North, South and East. From my personal experience, I feel that people from the South were less likely to indulge in so-called “eve teasing” (mostly stupid comments etc.) as compared to those from Northern states (Punjab, Delhi, UP, Bihar). I don’t know the real reason behind this. At this point, I’d like to say that I’m not trying to make any sweeping generalizations. Its just from my “personal experience”. Language might be one of the reasons….most people in Bombay understand Hindi..while people from South Indian states are less likely to talk in Hindi.
I think it is the cultural in general. I am from north india too and most of my auntys are really strong, loud talking ladies. Not afraid to speak out and usually create a very entertaining scene everywhere.
I don’t see the same culture in south india. I have noticed ladies are more shy, very respectful and usually quiet.
I think it is the cultural in general. I am from north india too and most of my auntys are really strong, loud talking ladies. Not afraid to speak out and usually create a very entertaining scene everywhere.
I don’t see the same culture in south india. I have noticed ladies are more shy, very respectful and usually quiet.
It is cultural thing. One more interesting thing I have seen is the unnecessary flauting of money that goes on especially among the Punjabis. It is so in your face kind of brash that it is nauseating.
Ugh ugh ugh. This thread seems to be full of hate, not anger at anti-feminism and street-harrassing jocks but a whole lotta hate. The comments made by another person above on Black and Hispanic men just add to the stench of hypocrisy…
How is it that people who will go up in arms about a ‘Macaca’ slur are so quick to stereotype, judge and generalise about others?
Of course all stereotypes have a grain of truth in them somewhere… I mean all communities in India and in America have their own particularities. But disintegrating into the whole ‘South Indians shy and demure vs. North Indians loud and brash’ dichotomy to add to that comment on Black and Latino men…
Can’t people who say things like that see a pattern?…hate breeds hate. Everyone wants to be seen as an individual, as who they truly are, which is partly why so many people come to sites like this. Some of the ‘interesting’ sociological observations on different cultures on this thread make me sick.
“Without pondering or hesitating, I yelled back a suggestion for what he could do with himself, but I felt impotent, despite it.”
I THINK THAT IT IS EXTREMELY IMPERATIVE TO NOTE, THAT IN THE MIDST OF ALL OF THAT, AND NO MATTER HOW BREIF, HOW SIMPLE AND HOW EFFECTIVE YOUR RETALIATION WAS AND EVEN THE EVENTS WHICH TRANSPIRED AFTER YOUR RETALIATION, EVEN IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU LOST, YOU STILL MANAGED TO STAND UP WHICH TAKES A LOT OF COURAGE ESPECIALLY AGAINST A BUNCH OF DRUNKEN SALA KUTHA’S. A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD NOT EVEN CONSIDERING UTTERING ONE WORD OUT OF THEIR MOUTH NOR WOULD THEY EVEN QUESTION WHAT ONE SAID TO THEM. THIS ELEMENT OF STANDING UP IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, NO MATTER HOW BIG OR HOW SMALL IS TRULY INSPIRING. I KNOW THAT I MAY BE MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT OF YOUR STORY…AND YOU HAVE MY SINCEREST APPOLOGIES IF I DO THAT AND IF I SOUND LIKE I’M PREACHING BUT THAT ASPECT OF STANDING UP IS AMAZING!!! ALWAYS STAND UP DIDI! EVEN IN DISGRACE THERE IS TRIUMPH!
IÂ’m getting tried of the Punjabi bashing. No one community has the monopoly on mistreating women. For those who think that other Indian communities are somehow immune to this issue. Check out the following:
http://www.indiatogether.org/women/health/ker_depn.htm According to a study conducted by the International Clinical Epidemeological Network and the International Centre for Research on Women, domestic violence in Kerala is very high. While nationally, 37 per cent women are subjected to physical torture and 35.5 per cent to mental harassment at home, in Kerala the figures are as high as 62.3 and 61.61. The study also reveals that 51.7 per cent of rural women are victims of domestic torture in India. But, in the fully literate Kerala, the figure is 68.8 per cent. Statistics with the State Crime Record Bureau reveal that the occurrence of rape, molestation, dowry harassment and eve-teasing is growing by the year. Violence against women affect both their physical and mental health.
http://www.countercurrents.org/gender-jacob230604.htm The Malayala Manorama, the largest circulated daily in the country, recently did what no other newspaper has done in recent times: it ran a series of articles from anuary 30 to February 3, exposing the difficulties and trauma that women in the most literate state in India were experiencing in public, thanks to its men.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1017197 The eve teasing scene in Mumbai is pathetic. Everywhere you go, you are hounded by catcalls and lurid gestures. It’s very disgusting; no one is spared. In buses I have seen little girls being felt up by men. Churchgate is the worst; there are many louts hanging around. This city is so indifferent, they don’t even bother to acknowledge that some guy just whistled at a girl. Once in a while an old woman probably yells at the ruffians. Everyone seems to ignore the ever-growing eve teasing issue that this city faces. — Suchita Agrawal
http://ncrb.nic.in/crime2004/cii-2004/CHAP5.pdf#search=%22%22eve%20teasing%22%20%22Andhra%20Pradesh%22%20highest%22 From the National Resource Centre for Women Andhra Pradesh, accounting for nearly 7.3 per cent of the countryÂ’s population, has accounted for 12.3% of total incidents of crime against women in the country by reporting 18,921 cases.
Madhya Pradesh has reported the highest number of Rape cases (2,875) accounting for 15.8% of total such cases reported in the country.
Incidents of Molestation in the country have increased by 4.9 per cent over the previous year (32,939). 19.4% of total such cases were reported from Madhya Pradesh (6,690) which also reported the highest rate (10.3) as compared to the National average of 3.2 Sexual Harassment (Eve –Teasing) Uttar Pradesh has reported 26.8 per cent of cases (2,682) followed by Andhra Pradesh 23.1 per cent (2,310). Haryana has reported the highest crime rate 3.8 as compared to the National average of 0.9. Immoral Traffic 52.6% (3,022) cases were reported from Tamil Nadu which also reported the highest crime rate of 4.7 as compared to the National average of 0.5. Indecent Representation of Women Andhra Pradesh with 1,102 cases has accounted for 80.0 per cent of total such cases at the National level. It has also reported the highest crime rate of 1.4 as compared to the National average rate of 0.1 only.
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=18200 Kolkata Police sergeant Bapi Sen, who was beaten unconscious by five reserve force constables of the city police for protesting against eve-teasing on New Year’s Eve, died on Monday.
http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/21/stories/2006012118420300.htm Tamil Nadu – Madurai No escape from eve teasing Eve teasing menace is rampant in the city, since many victims refrain from lodging a complaint, writes S. Vijay Kumar
Ignoring suggestive gestures, pretending not to have heard unpleasant comments and facing indecent proposals in public places. For some college-going girls/working women, particularly those using the public transport, these qualities appear to have become imperative. Eve teasing menace is continuing in the city, since many refrain from lodging a complaint with the police unless it goes beyond a tolerable level. The target places are bus stops near women’s hostels and those along routes leading to girls’ colleges. Interestingly, the suspects are not youths alone.
Since some completely unbiased people want to play the statistics game (with a name like gal sun, yeah right), here are some of mine. Let’s just do a quick comparison of Bangalore and Delhi via a quick google search.
Bangalore The IT capital may have gained the notorious tag of “unsafe city” after the gruesome kidnap and murder of Prathiba Shrikanthamurthy last week. Bangalore women may still have to watch out for uncomfortable stares, lewd comments and unwelcome touches as they travel, shop and work. But a peek into the Bangalore Police’s records will make one doubt these fears.
For, according to the City Crime Records Bureau (CCRB) statistics, only 38 women have been eve-teased this year, three more than the previous yearÂ’s record.
Delhi Statistics show a marked increase in crime against women in the capital, The total number of eve-teasing cases registered with the police till May was 574.
So there you go. 38 in Bangalore and 574 in Delhi. Wanna guess where women feel safer?
I grew up in Delhi and I have to agree that it was a distressing climate in terms of harrassment. There is no equivalent experience in Bombay (or the South from what I’ve heard). It’s also true that women are mistreated all over. Perhaps the manner in which they are mistreated is what makes the difference. Since this thread is about being harrassed on the street, naturally the punjabi or north indian element is what will be talked about since this is the form in which mistreatment of women is encountered in the north. No doubt women are mistreaed elsewhere in India and the rest of the world – just in different ways.
I do not remember noticing a similar jumping up and down when assertions are made on this board that south indians are more intelligent etc. This does not imply north indians are dumb, does it? The indigenous culture of the south is more intact than that of the north which provides for solid cultural grounding. North Indians have defintely lost their moorings and do not have a dominant, forecful culture like the so-called ABCD’s do to tether themselves to. In my opinion, north indians are infinitely worse off in the confusion department and this is reflected in all sorts of ways, from the way they dress to the houses they live in and to their behavior on the streets. Not to mention their grades. It will be interesting to observe how well the supposedly brilliant south indians do without the benefit of the south indian culture when they get to be 4th generation americans. Will they continue to be brilliant or will they blend in with the other stereotype – the stupid american.
It is an emperical fact that the climate for women is way, way, worse in north india than the south and many of us have lived and suffered through it. If this sounds like stereotyping or demonizing, what would the word be for people who refuse to acknowledge that people suffer more in some parts than others? This is not a rhetorical question – i’d like to figure this out.
Ugh ugh ugh. This thread seems to be full of hate, not anger at anti-feminism and street-harrassing jocks but a whole lotta hate.
No hate here Tashie just a sorry realization that something must be going wrong in the way North Indian men are being brought up so that they end up becoming animals with no respect for another human being.
The Chicken-Shikan eating, vaddi-gaddi driving, bhangra rap listening thugs are a unique product of this culture.
Whats the ethnic breakdown of the population in Delhi? Whats the percentage of Punjabis in Delhi?
After further inspection its become unacceptable to say “But the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting” but acceptable to say “Punjabi men in
NYC,the US,the UK,India, Everywhere are downright disgusting.”Eh.
I’ve heard it all before. I had an Indian professor say to me that all Punjabi’s are wife-beating, alcoholics, brutish, uncouth, culturally hegemonic, quasi-imperialist soundrels with Persian blood who denigrate an otherwise non-violent Indian culture. Eh.
So, whats a Punjabi man to do? Fight it? Eh. How? Find a good bird, raise good kids and squash the bravado, defeat the stereotype? Eh. That’s so long run and uncool; cool is starting a non-profit, dot org, acronym-laden, to “raise awareness” and breed a generation of “activists.”
So, again, the dirty laundry is out there, in all its glory. I mean, it’s personal experience right? It’s not like we’re talking about flying pink unicorns. So now what? Where does the discussion go from here? The “I’m-not-one-of-them” back and forth isn’t helpful. A lot of readers probably nodded their heads in affirmation, but now what? That’s why I ‘eh’- typecast discussions are charged, yet don’t move forward in proportion to that charge. I guess that’s why Hollaback has this disclaimer. Now, some unsuspecting visitor, somewhere in North Dakota, who only knows of one brown, who he happens to be dating, who happens to be Punjabi, will ask his amore, “Daaaahling, are all Punjabi’s X, Y, Z.” The lass, being a “loud talking” firecracker, slaps him silly. Presto. Typecast signed, sealed and confirmed. But where’s the discussion? It’s still waddling in ‘eh’.
Some may say, “Oh NVM, I didn’t mean you” or “I didn’t mean for you to take offense” but honestly, I don’t take offense. I don’t take offense to much anyhow. Except if you diss my girl. Then I’ll pound your visage with a patriarchal Punjabi knuckle massage comparable to any Dharmendra dishoom-dishoom, sumja? =)
Sincerely,
No von “unique product of the ultra-macho jat-punjabi-gujjar mindset”… “indulge[r] in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine”… “paws on every girl on the floor”…”unnecessar[ily] flauting [my] money”…from the “ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi area” Mises
P.S. We need some SpoorLam.
So, whats a Punjabi man to do? Fight it? Eh. How? Find a good bird, raise good kids and squash the bravado, defeat the stereotype? Eh. That’s so long run and uncool; cool is starting a non-profit, dot org, acronym-laden, to “raise awareness” and breed a generation of “activists.”
Just try to instil respect for women in your cousins, your younger brothers. If you see them behaving like a bunch of sex-crazy louts take them to task. As they say , baby steps…
Dawg, you have a career in diplomacy.
Lets play a game where we take common stereotypes about people who don’t like and pretend like we’re making some kind of grand sociological statement!
This is absolute bullshit at this point. Absolute bullshit. The fact Punjabi culture is reduced to “unique product of the ultra-macho jat-punjabi-gujjar mindset”… “indulge[r] in the most aggressive, loutish behavior you can imagine”… “paws on every girl on the floor”…”unnecessar[ily] flauting [my] money”…from the “ultra-macho-gold-chain-wearing-bhangra-rap-listening Punjabi area” is utter stupidity masquerading as good natured advice.
Why don’t people actually think of real punjabi people they know who act like this demented stereotype.
Sahej,
Those quotes were from DesiDawg. I was using them in jest.
Now that I’ve pre-empted a possible powerpunchfest between two Punjabi’s, back to our regularly scheduled cultural bashing mired with frankness. Frankness, ahh, another Punjabi trait.
No Von,
(takes of his ultra macho gold chain and turns down his loud bhangra-rap music)
I know man, I ain’t no stupid Pindu
baby steps man.
Ok, I put my money back in my pockets, what now? What’s step 2 towards reformation? How many steps are there? My hot-bloodedness has a limit of 15.
JOAT, Bravo. for saying something everyone knows but wont admit for the fear of being politically incorrect. In situations like this, its better to be a racist than raped/murdered. Stereotyping is bad, but not all stereotypes are completely untrue. I guess its a cultural thing- phrases like ‘junk in trunk’, ‘badonkadonk’, ‘lady lumps’ all come from black ‘artists’. Black men(in general) have a very agressive way of propositioning women. Therein they cross boundaries that they know not of.
Desidawg,
What’s wrong with my screen name its the name I’ve always used here. Its not nice to post stats without links. Show me some real evidence that Punjabis have the highest number of eve teasing /street harassment.
Delhi is not in Punjab nor is it all Punjabi. Many people here are blaming the Punjabi culture eve teasing /street harassment/mistreatment of women, etc. If this was the case then Punjab would have the worst rates in eve teasing /street harassment/mistreatment of women, however, none of the statistics IÂ’ve seen show this.
And we continue to spiral downward, faster than you can say callipygian…
My guess is the next step has to have something to do with cutting down on aloo parantas and butter; but maybe we should check with Desidawg
Word.
I just cancelled the crate of Chivas Regal I ordered. I’m buying Andrea Dworkin’s book right now. Detox, detox…