A few hours ago, when I left my new apartment for dinner at Heritage India (Connecticut Ave), rain was escaping the night sky with such fury and speed, my golf umbrella was barely adequate and my mukluks were soaked. They are lined with sheepskin, which is now wet and disgusting. My toes are miserable. I’m barely cognizant of this though, because I’m on the phone, having the most important conversation of my day. I’m so involved with this voice, I barely notice the mile which I’ve walked uphill, the road I’ve made a right turn on, the periodic hordes of people on Adams Morgan’s 18th street, on this dead-because-it’s-wet-and-miserable night.
I should be at my new home, snuggled in my, um, Aerobed, but I have no internet access yet, so Tryst (a much-loved haunt of our Manish’s) has gone from third-place to first place in my life, for the moment. I don’t want to go inside and be the idiot on her cell phone though, so I’m hunched over my umbrella handle while I shiver mindlessly right outside the giant picture window, directly across from “my table“; practically on the sidewalk, it’s close to an electrical outlet and the perfect size for one. It’s also almost exactly where I sit when I’m at Greco. Some call me boring, I prefer consistent.
I’m in the middle of responding to a worrisome revelation when a group of frat-tastic retards lurches past, reeking of sweat and bad alcohol. I’m less vexed by such roving stupidity than some of my friends, mostly because unlike them, I was “Greek” and thus constantly around similar. I turn away from them slightly as they stagger by, wishing Maisnon were here; one of the last times we were together in the Morg, I was grabbed so violently, you could see marks the next day. Well before THAT sickening reminder of ickiness manifested itself in my flesh, our girl became Our Lady of Terrifying Rage. Approximately two minutes after Filthy McNastyman’s fingers defiled my arm, she accosted the pulayadi mon who startled and then offended me. “You do NOT do that”, she ranted, right in his face, as his innards liquefied in the face of her wrath. Ah, good times. But why was I thinking these thoughts? I had no need for such big guns. Nothing was going to happen to me…
“Jewugingglut”
Wait, what? Immediately, I hit a mental rewind even as I strained to listen to the voice currently inhabiting my cell-phone. WAIT. OMG. No. He. Didn’t. I dropped the phone right then from ear to hip and shouted in to the bastardÂ’s wake.
“What the hell did you just say to me??”
He turned back, the look on his face scaring me so much I think I whimpered for Deepa, my Mom and/or my ferocious, late German Shepherd Rani. “I saaaaid, YOU FUCKING SLUT.” This opportunity I had given him to repeat misogynistic filth tickled his friends to no end; they laughed so hard at his courage and genius that they were choking. Two of them slapped him on the back. Oh yeah. You showed me!
The toxic disrespect in his eyes had made my blood go cold, now I felt like I was being microwaved. Shaking replaced shivering, livid indignation supplanting any discomfort with weather. Without pondering or hesitating, I yelled back a suggestion for what he could do with himself, but I felt impotent, despite it. It was painful. If I hadn’t said anything, I would’ve felt steamrolled by him and undone by regret; I did say something and what came next made it all so much worse.
“Fuck that slut.”
“Nah, man. She’s Indian. They’re not sluts.”
“You would know.”
“Hey did that bitch taste like curry when you ate her?”
I obviously don’t know what sort of taste had been left in his mouth at the past point these Neanderthals were referencing, but I knew what the acrid sensation in my mouth meant.
“What just happened? Whom were you shouting at? Where are you? Is it safe?”
“Some guy…just called me “slut”. Twice. I didn’t feel like accepting it, soÂ…anyway I’m in Adams Morgan, in front of Tryst. And no, in some ways I do not feel safe.”
“Some stranger just walked by and called you such a name?”
“Yeah. This day gets better by the MINUTE. I hate this neighborhood. Or, more accurately, the type of entirely-challenged jackass it attracts.”
I try and remind the person IÂ’m conversing with what we were talking about, because they had been in the middle of relating something important; I barely manage to do this effectively. I can’t stop considering pepper spray. Or German Shepherds.
Words flow again via a battered Sprint Samsung and mercifully, within seconds, I am immersed. I am not thinking of racist assholes or how they hate my gender. I am listening too mindfully for such torment. Which is why I don’t notice the man with dreads in the Coogi sweater who is suddenly in my face.
“Excuse me, sweetheart, I’m not tryin’ to bother you, but what’s your name?”
I shake my head and smile politely, pointing to my cellphone with the hand which can barely balance my massive umbrella. I stupidly assume he’ll understand that I am otherwise involved and move on…I want to close my eyes so I can better focus on the voice and the rather important words which I have to hear. It’s a no-win situation; this call HAS to occur RIGHT NOW, when it’s suddenly (and much to my surprise) least convenient for me. I resist the desire to let my eyelids fall because more men are headed my way and I’m starting to feel vulnerable. Can I get a hearty WTF? I’m not dressed up or done up. I can’t remember if I applied deodorant today, it’s been so hectic with errands, appointments and attempts at unpacking. I’m not polished, I’m drenched. And I’m not smiling, I’m frowning. What about ANY of that invites such stubborn attempts at interaction?
“Sweetheart. Sweetheart. I’m tryin’ to tawk to you.”
“I understand that, but I can’t talk right now, I’m really sorry.”
“Well, maybe you can just keep me warm under that big ole umbrella of yours.” He moves in closer as he says this, until he’s touching me. I’m slightly cornered and I instantly want to bolt.
“I’m sorry, I’m not interested. I’m on the phone. WITH MY BF.”
Blatant lie, but so is the apology. May I please have another order of WTF? Why am I the one saying “sorry”?
“Well, tell your man that I ain’t tryin’ to fuck ya, I’m just attemptin’ to holla at his girl.”
More laughter from the pea-brained gallery and the voice on the other end is concomitantly appalled and concerned about my location and my odds.
I’m about to state a definitive “leave me alone” when just as quickly as Coogi and Co. came, they’re off. The sigh I heave is so audible, it freaks out a random dog being walked four feet away.
“I’m fine, wait, what was I saying? No, wait, what were YOU saying? I’m so sorry about this…”
“Excuse me miss, can you keep me dry?”
OH MY GOD. WHY? WHY!
“No. No, I cannot keep you dry. Please go away, I am on the phone.”
“I ain’t tryin’ to hurt you, I’m just tryin’ to get under that umbrella.”
I want to heave this luxurious, sturdy behemoth in to the nearest public trash can. Or pretend it’s a spear and lob it through a neck, any neck of any man who has harassed me in the last 20 minutes.
“I’m talking to my boyfriend. I just want to talk to my boyfriend. Please leave me alone. It’s not even really raining anymore.”
I have no idea why I toss in that last bit of dilettante meteorology or more relevantly, why this umbrella has been the instrument of my doom and then–
“Your boyfriend, huh? What is he, white?”
“I don’t see how this is any of your business, but my (entirely non-existant) boyfriend is Indian.”
“What you couldn’t find an Ethiopian? Bitch.”
I can’t win.
Did I actually, stupidly complain about invisibility last week? I’m so sorry. No, really, this time, I am. If they canÂ’t see me, they canÂ’t say unpleasant things to me…right?
do a root cause analysis. it is totally rumsfeldian to say – “kick the guy!”, “it’s the darkies”. the problem is you if you use a neighborhood but have little vested interest in it besides a meal and a drink. cities must evolve to create a collaborative spirit among its citizens or the selfish isolation of the individuals will make the city implode.
put up a community rec center in adams morgan. the cost for the investment will be more than made up when young families or empty nesters figure out the place is safe and start moving in to live there and real estate valuations bounce.
Yeah that’s great. Are you just offended because you are Punjabi? This isn’t some personal vendetta against Punjabis for cryin out loud. I know them love them am friends with them have dated them but too bad the poorly behaved ones tend to be north Indians for the most part. And it’s not like the disrespectful attitude towards women from certain cultures in India is exactly a secret. This was exactly my point about Hispanics. I seriously believe they think it’s OK for them to behave that way because they do that with their own women.
Hairy,
The problem in Adams Morgan is a different one. It’s the problem of the neighborhood that has become the drinking strip for dumb young people from all over the city and suburbs. The demographic particularity of Adams Morgan at night isn’t racial or ethnic, it’s about age. Young people, and drunk; many post-collegiate and most of them educated enough to theoretically know better. It’s the pack mentality, as someone pointed out earlier. Then of course a neighborhood where this is going on will attract its fair share of solo hustlers and creeps who want in on the action.
It’s a double- or triple-shame because about ten years ago, Adams Morgan was one of the most enjoyable neighborhoods in the country. O tempora, o mores…
Talk of double standards. Most of the commenters here make hue and cry when some white politician stereotypes all desis as a cab-driver, gas station worker or a 7-11 worker. Now those very people (esp. JoAT) are trying to stereotype all “black and hispanics men” in NYC as “downright disgusting”.
This is disgusting.
Huge difference between. I sincerely hope you see it before you take blind offense to it.
&
I’m sorry you had to go through that ANNA. What total jerks.
Well JOAT, in your original comment you actually said this:
Given that turn of phrase I can see why people are taking you to task.
This is what you said in #23
Joat:
Is that so?
JOAT,
I don’t think you ought to get defensive and explain yourself to every Tom, Dick and brown_fob.
She is not calumniating entire peoples. She is telling the truth which many here don’t have the guts to tell or admit.
No, JOAT, what you said is “the Black and Hispanic men in this city are downright disgusting,” and that’s not acceptable, no way, no how.
If the mayor of London said, “the Indians and Pakistanis in this city are downright disgusting,” I know exactly what my reaction to that would be. And if he later says, “Well, I didn’t mean every last one of them,” I still know what my reaction would be.
Brown_fob, THANK YOU. Why, I wonder, aren’t others speaking up? Is this kind of language acceptable here?
JOAT,
I still believe generalizing any culture is incorrect. I know it is late, and there is a whole lot of generalization of Indian girls, which I know is incorrect. As regards to numbers, I did not talk about them being evenly distributed, but there might be a common probability distribution (for a**holes) with variable mean and stand deviation, which might depend on sample size and geographical location.
As regard to Punjabis…go to a Gurugwara this Sunday (if you have not gone there yet) and count the a**holes (you might get a better distribution rather then oaktree).
I gotta start blogging.
It also makes no sense. If the Black and Hispanic men in NYC are downright disgusting, how do you account for the ones who don’t harass you? Have they somehow lost their intrinsic Black or Hispanic disgustingness?
Alternately, if the Black and Hispanic men in NYC are downright disgusting, yet at the same time there exist Black or Hispanic men in NYC who don’t harass you, then it isn’t the propensity to harassment that makes them disgusting in your eyes.
If neither of these is true, then it means that either every Black and Hispanic man you see does actually harass you, in which case I can’t contest your claim. Or, it means you should rephrase your original comment so that it more accurately reflects your opinion.
brown_fob and Mr Kobayashi, I agree with you!
Just a note.. Aren’t some of the comments here getting a little “personal, non-issue-focused flames; intolerant or anti-secular comments; and long, obscure rants“
I saw a sign on a train in India that more or less said
“Talking, staring, looking, ogling, smiling, breathing in the general direction of women is strictly prohibited”
In the club “Purple Haze” in Bengaluru (which I think is on… Brigade? I don’t remember maybe some native bengalurians here can confirm that) I approached a set of women there with the line “Hi, do any of you work in a bank?” Yes, not exactly a stunner as far as opening lines go, but I didn’t open with “Hey btch, come sck my c*ck”
I had 3 staff members converge on my location asking the girls if it was ok, who I was, whether I was harassing them, etc.. etc.. In a society that protects women this much, and in general discourages all forms of male-female interaction, it’s hard for me to understand the phenom of eve-teasing as it’s called. Not that I deny it or anything. Just as I believe a white person can never understand a minorities position/experiences in the US. A male can never understand a female’s experiences either.
These paradox’s are vexing though.
I would say pretty much, yes. Evenly spread. And I am a woman in NYC who takes the subway every day. The gropings, winks, lip-licking, tongue-flicking, staring, self-pleasuring, unwanted comments and solicitations come from a wide variety of races and cultures.
Tamasha,
Somehow I think it is the media that is generating these stereotype images. I feel like JOAT’s comments are in the same league as “all browns are terror*sts”.
Let us criticize the crime, not stereotype it with a culture and then criticise/hate/dislike the culture.
It is a problem of disenfranchisement. Which explains why JOAT’s tormentors have been disproportionately black and hispanic – presumably the majority demographic of transients in NYC.
I daresay, the jerk population in Adams Morgan is predominantly white. again, a reflection of a population that sees itself as passing through with little interest in settling down and building a life in that part of the city.
i can understand such communities arise around border towns such as tijuana or windsor because of the trucker population and their preferred entertainment options. it is sad that the heart of the american government has been left to the louts.
i blame the property owners – for having leased their land to vendors and transient restaurateurs. i blame the local residents for giving up their housing to rental untis. i blame chain restaurants who squeeze out the family eateries. i also blame the university housing for not plannign communal spots in the neighborhood. put up a recreational center in the neighborhood. most meatheads i knew in college were also tremendously disciplined, honorable people – there has to be a NIMBY attitude – and a collective sense of responsibility and community policing to make real change.
this is my neighborhood. can anyone on this forum say that for Adams morgan?
Abhi_az,
Perhaps, but I’m tired of that excuse.
Agreed. Equally frustrating and ridiculous.
It’s called the Halo Effect. It’s where one quality tends to obfuscate other qualities and even enhance them. “The Complete and total asshole” behavior is rendered moot because the recipient generally thinks of it as temporary and fleeting and intrinsic to his nature, which is assumed to be positive.
correction:
temporary and fleeting and not intrinsic to his nature
Isn’t there a Hindi film song with the phrase “Hey Baby”? Don’t you feel that the song-and-dance routines in all our movies are really no different from cat-calls or whistles?
I can see what JOAT is saying, but I don’t think that can be generalized to every woman’s experience (and I don’t think she tried to generalize it to every woman’s experience either). In my NYC experience, I get the most comments from men of color, but maybe it’s just because they are just more vocal about their commenting. Some comments are gross and qualify as harassment, but a lot of comments I get are more a friendly “Hey beautiful.” Of course, it would be nice to not get comments at all and be allowed to meander through the city anonymously. The creepiest comments I’ve gotten are from white men. Everyone has their own way of dealing with it; I just pretend I have invisible earplugs on (unless the comment is respectful, to which I give a hesitant and confused half-smile).
“Of course, it would be nice to not get comments at all and be allowed to meander through the city anonymously”
So if a Brad Pitt walked up to you and said “Hey baby, I think you’re gorgeous” You wouldn’t enjoy that?
Look, I’m not defending vulgar, nasty remarks, or violent attacks, or anything like that! But proactive, and borderline socially aggressive behavior is something most women expect. Sorry if this thread was meant to be a train of “OMG that’s so bad! I would have kneed him in the balls” type messages…
HMF – IMO, most of the girls are smart/wise enough to recognize the difference between vile remarks and ‘good-natured’ ones.
I don’t necessarily agree with the way JOAT phrased it, but as a woman having spent over a dozen years living all over California, the men who harrass me, leer at me, and yell at me from their cars are overwhelmingly Black or Hispanic. I’m not going to begin dissecting the reasons for this, but that’s the hard and fast truth of what I (and JOAT) put up with on a daily basis. It’s not stereotyping, it’s the knowledge that you come away with after dealing with this sort of bullshit for years the second you step outside your door. Maybe it is a geographical phenomenon… who knows. Do these men who happen to be Black or Hispanic represent all men from that particular racial group? Definitely not, and I can say that with certainty as well. Perhaps some of you have had different experiences in this regard, and that’s fine. But having sadly been through constant harrassment as well, I have absolutely no trouble believing that JOAT’s comments are coming from her personal experiences rather than inherent prejudice, regardless of the way her comment came across.
My experience in big cities or public transportation in the US is limited, but I have only experienced comments like “Hey beautiful” almost exclusively from Black men in Los Angeles. They were never agressive or physical, and I took them as compliments since they were friendly.
Thats more my experience. And I’ll admit, I love the “hey beautiful”s because often it really is just a guy being kind… not to mention that in many places it is expected that black people who do not know each other will say hello to each other in a crowd of people. For me its less of a come on than a show of solidarity.
Black and latino men are more likely to act on their interests and I can’t blame them. That bravado, when it doesn’t cross the line into harrassment, can be very attractive… There are many women who get annoyed with guys who can’t just come out and say what they want. I don’t think I’d be with my boyfriend if he didn’t show signs of it.
Duh. Of course I would! =P I’m just saying, most of the times I’m in the mood to focus on where I’m going. It takes mental effort to come out of my reverie, quickly deduce whether the comment is sketchy/scary or not, and then respond. The reason why it takes effort is because those kinds of situations can quickly escalate into something scarier (like pple starting to follow you home) if your response is not right (esp with the creepies out there). I think a lot of women can relate to that.
And as I said before, when the comment is respectful, I don’t ignore it and I respond politely (either with a smile or “Thank you”). I know it takes guts (and some game!) for a man to be respectful like that, and I respect and appreciate that in return.
Brown dissenter, saying that all the men who have harassed you have particular characteristics is not stereotyping. It’s an account of personal experience. However, look at what JoAT said:
That’s a sweeping generalization about all men of a particular kind. But she told us later on that it’s not just black and hispanic men who harass her (she describes harassment by Punjabi men too). Furthermore, I know (having observed JoAT in a mixed race crowd) that not all Black or Latino men that she interacts with harass her.
I want to second both Mr.K and Siddhartha – that kind of jumping to sweeping conclusions is neither accurate nor useful. We have both black and latino readers here, and I don’t want to let that sort of statement stand undisputed.
Look – I have no problem with saying “all the people who have done X to me are Y” – that’s a statement of personal experience. I can’t argue with that except where I know it’s not true (and it wasn’t here). But saying “All Y do X” is seriously uncool. It’s also patently false.
This is uncomfortable for me b/c I’ve met JoAT IRL now, and I got along with her. But that sort of statement is wrong on multiple levels.
ennis, whatever, she might have said about Blacks and Hispanics, JOAT did not make a generalization about Punjabi guys. Even her subsequent remarks were only her hypothesis that such behavior among those men (not all Punjabis) comes from their home cultures.
Agreed. Nor did I say she did. However, her admission that she is also harassed by Punjabi guys deflates her earlier more sweeping claims about Black and Hispanic men. It is neither true that all Black and Hispanic men harass her, nor is it true that she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men.
Look, if JoAT wants to say that most of the harassment she has experienced has been from Black and Hispanic men, that’s a statement of personal experience on her part. However, that’s a far cry from what she said.
JOAT, i didn’t mean this for the daily offenders, but the ones you meet randomly…
I meant “Latino” above. They generally don’t like to be called “Hispanic”.
Many on SM have mentioned that South India treats women better than the North. While this is true, the South also has a long way to go. By all accounts, Mumbai treats women the best, certainly better than Hyderabad or Chennai. I don’t know about Bengaluru (Banglore).
It is neither true that all Black and Hispanic men harass her, nor is it true that she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men.
ennis, i think you’re right that you have to be careful how you word things on such sensitive topics, and whether she meant too or not JOAT opened up a can of worms, and now we’re talking about race as opposed to sexism. that being said, it seems disingenous that JOAT would have meant that “all Black and Hispanic men harass her” or that “she is only harassed by Black and Hispanic men.” an observation trend does not mean that the line isn’t noise and that the pattern is deterministic. that being said, i think the commenter who pointed out the socioeconomic confounding variables probably has a point, tying it to race as opposed to the correlation of race with socioeconomic parameters is probably not correct.
whatever guys… have you ever lashed out to an act of violation. here’s a story. my friend told me about how he was assaulted by some kids in paris – he had his camera stolen and had a knife slice his ear. one guy ran out – the other he caught and proceeded to bang up. as he was bashing the thug’s head againt the pavement, a wagon with policeguys rolled up – the fighting guys each got to say the story – but as my buddy told me, “who the hell do you think they’d believe. me, or some black guy from the street.”. in context, i didnt think this was off-color given what he’d been through but it might seem different to someone walking in. give a little space here.
Razib, look at the phrasing. If I make the following statement “Indian men are under 5’6″ tall” that means “all Indian men are under 5’6″ tall” not that some are. Statements made about groups without qualifiers are commonly understood to apply to all members of that group.
Siddhartha, Ennis & Kobayashi, Abhi_Az, others I dont know what to say. Unfortunately I think we are stuck in the semantics of language and my initial statement while going off on a rant. I could have cleaned up my sentence structure. And perhaps I am unable to communicate this as well as I could.
I sincerely believe you aren’t truly seeing my point. The men that harrass me on a daily basis comprise of black and hispanic men and I wish this weren’t the truth but this I truly believe after having lived here for as long as I have. I’ve attempted to say this in several different ways but everyone is offended by it and I really don’t know how else to say it differently to get my point across. It has nothing to do with the men who dont harass me who also are black and hispanic because the ones that do are.
This isnt about generalization but a constant experience with a group of men who happen to comprise of black/hispanic men. I however don’t known again how to step away from the above belief because I am proven right over and over again on a daily basis. I think people would like to believe that I am being malicious but that isnt true at all. There isn’t some deep seeded hate filled place this is coming from. This is daily experience day after day year after year decade after decade that I cannot step away from.
Does this cut down on all the other positives the cultures bring to the table? Absolutely not. Does this put down ALL Hispanic and Black men? Come now. That would be silly even by a long shot to believe. It has nothing to do with ALL the other qualities. We are talking about men who harrass and in my experience that is how it has been.
These are experiences out of NYC. I take the train from Queens into Midtown and back everyday. Why have I never been harrassed by an Asian man for example? Again I’m not trying to be scarcastic but has never happened? Maybe I look like them so the Hispanic and Black men think its OK to harrass me? I have no idea. But sadly even when it’s not me and someone else the above stands true.
ennis, i reread the post. see what you mean.
but to be clear, JOAT has a record on this blog. she should have rephrased what she said, but i don’t think she meant what she said in a literal manner.
I hope not. That is the reason why I’m phrasing my disagreement as one with what she said rather than a personal disagreement with her.
Bingo! I would have never thought that saying “Black and Hispanic men in this city are disgusting” would be taken as “All Black and Hispanic men in this city are disgusting” when clearly in my mind I was talking about the ones that harrass me. Implied but not clearly stated. My bad.
And the following sentence about being raised by animals well that applied to all harrasses and this comes as a angry harrassed girl rant and not attached to the above statement which is how Siddhartha and someone else read it. They were two independent angry rants.
I couldn’t have imagined that saying “a disgusting man who harrassed me was raised by animals” would be up for debate but unfortunately it was. It’s the same line of being angry when I say “I want to chop some guys nuts off when he tries to rub them against me.” Please does anyone actually do this in reality? I’m allowed to be angry enough at someone doing that to think that without being challenged for thinking it.
I have no problem with you chopping off the nuts in question, roasting them, grinding them and serving them as a shot of expresso. I’m with you 100% on unwanted genital touching.
That’s what I need a zapper for. The sharp object (safety pin) idea was fabulous but seriously I don’t know if I want to be anywhere near someone who is doing that. If it’s too crowded and I have nowhere to go I just get off the train. Not worth it.
…brown?
WAY off topic, but:
Isn’t the safety pin idea dangerous? Do you sterilize them after each “use” or are we dealing with shared needles here?
I’m no doctor (much to the chagrin of my family) but can’t diseases be spread that way?
WOW! This Janeofalltrades chick is PMSing all over this board. You have an old Indian woman’s way of thinking. I wouldnt be surprised if you order acid be thrown on your son’s bride if she doesnt pay enough dowry.
Bangalore is pretty safe- as long as you are sensible ( read: in a group). Me and my girlfriends have hit the night spots many times- sometimes taking an autorickshaw back home at 2 am… not a problem- Guys at clubs are pretty decent too.. They get the clue if you imply that you are not interested. Public transportation is very safe- The strictly enforced separate sections for men & women help a lot. If you ever want to humiliate an “eve teaser” don’t worry the junta will rush to your aide. In JOAT’s defence- I like her- she’s always very sensible- give her a break- she’s already said that she had a long day.
I can second JOAT on this. There is a HUGE difference in BEHAVIOR between black/hispanic men and white in the way they relate to me. I know it’s not PC to say, and people don’t want to hear it but it’s true. With me, I know it’s because of the brown skin. I don’t think they’re necessarily the same way with white women, but it’s like they see the brown skin and think it gives them an “in”.