There are times when I feel desperately ashamed of my community/communities (Desi/Punjabi/Sikh). I realize this is just one side of the story we’re hearing, and that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions, but it is all too believable and makes my blood run cold.
This is the story of 27 year old Navjeet Siddhu from Southall, who committed suicide by jumping in front of a 100mph Heathrow Express train. Not only did she jump, but she jumped carrying her two children.
She suffered from depression, which began when she gave birth to a daughter rather than a son. Her condition became worse after her husband, Manjit, who left her to return to his native India, said that he would come back home only if he did not have to do any household chores. [Link]
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p>Navjeet Siddhu and her daughter Simran died instantly. Her son, Aman Raj, died in the hospital 2 hours later. To add to the carnage, Navjeet’s mother, 56 year old Satwant Kaur Sodhi, committed suicide at the same spot six months later.
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p>Navjeet Siddhu died back in August of 2005, but the inquest into the incident is just now being held, hence the news attention. The husband comes off as hideously callous in news stories:
The court was told how Mr Sidhu, who arrived six minutes after the incident at Southall station, walked past the bodies of his wife and five-year-old daughter, Simran, to pick up the body of his 23-month-old son, Aman Raj, and take him to hospital. [Link]
It’s possible that his actions had a rational explanation – that Aman Raj was the only one who looked like he would survive – it’s hard to tell without having his side of the story. We really shouldn’t prejudge her husband based on such flimsy evidence. However, even if this account is a media fiction, this sort of thing is far too common and that makes it easier to believe that it might have happened.
amj, you should drop it. the religious are just different 🙂
I have to concur with that, but I guess my larger point was that this sort of behavior is not limited to the desi context. There have been entire treatises written on similar close ties between black men and their mothers, for example. Apparently, that ties into the paucity of male role models in modern black communities, but it could well be the same sort of attention-seeking behavior from a woman who has a son, but no male companion/husband.
Maavan de putt sher gabbhru…brruuuaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!
Just kidding. Although there is a song like that.
AMfJ – there is a secular rationale for such restrictions, although I am not sure how I feel about it, namely the presence of large numbers of children.
How do you feel about bars next to primary schools? Or playgrounds? Swimming pools?
In the US, I think Churches can argue that bars shouldn’t be allowed right around them because of the number of children who are there.
However, the argument here is not one about religious inappropriateness, and therefore is different from the butcher / lingerie shop argument.
Jai – that’s not how I understand the maryada but perhaps you’re making a subtler point.
Regarding Salil’s comment;
“Freud might argue that those attachments were unhealthy for repressed sexual reasons.
I might even concur. Gross though it sounds, I have seen women who formed odd crushes on their sons, and behaved like a jealous mate when confronted with their son’s significant other.”
This was my original gut reaction to the scenario, but I rethought it a few years later, thinking maybe I was “conditioned” by Freud or my own experiences of the mother-son bond, which are not universal. Cultural sensitivity. Maybe Freud himself would’ve had a completely different take on it if he grew up in an environment where grown men live life-long with their parents. Family dynamics are often different in such situations than in situations where they don’t.
Regarding HMF’s –
“Mothers have no clue what it takes to attract women. Because by the time their children reach that age, they are far removed generationally from the social dynamics in the current time. Also, the kind of emotional support, understanding, etc.. that a married woman wants from her husband is radically different than what a single girl wants from a potential mate, during the attraction phase.”
We women KNOW what we want, even if we never get it. Some things are universal, such as demonstrative affection and genuine concern.
This ties into JOAT’s –
“Personally I don’t think it’s a mothers place to teach an adult son how to woo and romance a woman. She should have stopped “raising him” at some point when he hit college. I’m not saying parents shouldn’t offer guidance. God knows I still run to my mom for advice. But I don’t need her to make decisions and empower me.
And a woman who has never had romance and the freedom to seek it isn’t really going to know what it is to teach anyone else. The best thing Indian mothers can ever do is let their son go and be an adult and life his life without interference.”
I disagree. Just as (alot of) young girls in India are taught how to whip up roti and serve tea to guests and are (often) told “this is training for when you are married”, I think it is the RESPONSIBILITY of mothers to teach their boys the SAME THING.
When asking her young son to massage her feet a mother can say, “this is to train you for your wife”.
It should be ingrained early on in the boy’s life that his wife is not only there to serve and tend to him, but HE is there to serve and tend to HER as well.
What woman wouldn’t like a foot massage from her husband at the end of a long hard day, even if she never had that experience before?
What woman does not instinctly desire romance and consideration during sexual activity, even if she never got it?
They are watching movies, and although they may not want to run around trees in the rain or stand atop the Alps in sleevless cholis and thin sarees, they DO want the spontaneous displays of affection that are natural to a loving union, whether or not they ever got it.
They are dying (inside) for it.
Thus, I feel the change can come from women only, as they are often the first and foremost teachers of their sons, and often the ones that are around them the most and often the most respected personalities in their sons’ lives.
An emotionally and physically neglected woman knows EXACTLY what it is that she’s missing in her life, whether she expresses it or not.
JOAT, That was a really stupid remark about Hinduism. If you’d said it about Islam or Sikhism, your head would have been off by now. Hindus are no more uptight about sex than Christians – considerably less so from a historical vantage point. Heard of the Karma Sutra? Tantric Sex? Sanskrit love poetry? All highly sexual. Even the Mahabharata has steamy scenes in it. And a heroine with five hot husbands.
Pardesi Gori in the house!
You don’t drink, eh Jaibaby? How did I know that? Bet there’s lots more you don’t do…
Dharma Queen –
You are WAY more provacative than I am, so why is it I’M always the one to get banned?
But you are hilarious! I like your spirit!
MyDev, DQ is a mortal, not a White Magik Wielder!
But now I got posted three times.
Must be my pc playing tricks on me.
no, thatz the White Magik. it saves and it and sins.
“There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
and so lies the origin of the White Magik Wielders.
DQ if you are about to throw one of your belligerent hissy fits save it. No time for it. I am entitled to make any observations or comments about my own religion as I see fit. If you have a problem with it perhaps you might consider taking a hike. There was absolutely nothing about that remark that was about Hinduism as much as it was about my amazement that people would actually practice abstinance in a marriage in today’s day. The ranting and raving about how it’s no more conservative than others stems from your own insecurity about the notion and the need to defend it.
And what’s with constantly baiting Jai? If you have some kind of obsession with him take it offline because this will be yet another thread where you will attempt to piss all over him and get shut down.
Comment # 210 is shitty and uncalled for. Quit seeking attention.
Where the hell are the moderators?
Dharma Queen, I’d like to address your points about the Kama Sutra and sexuality in Hindu lore.
The Kama Sutra was just one book, written by one sage. Oddly enough, I think it’s read more here in USA than it is in India. I’ve never seen it laying around on any coffee tables or hidden in bedrooms in India.
Hinduism also has a strong monastic culture at it’s core and that does influence alot of people.
I read where even Gandhi proposed that the erotic sculptures of Khajaraho should be destroyed, leaving the buildings standing though.
He also advocated celibacy within marriage and his wrote relatively openly about his early and self-centered sex life with his young wife. He went from only thinking of his gratification in relationship to her, to then feeling that refraining from sex altogether was the only way he could demonstrate his later, more mature, non-selfish love for her. There was no admission of anything in between – such as approaching sex as a mean to make love to his wife in the ways SHE wanted, as an exploration of her own sexuality and what makes her tick. Both the sex and the celibacy was male centered.
And that is part of my point in the above posts. Of course it could be argued that that was a univeral trait in male sexuality during those times, and it very well may have been. I know that it was indeed a very Victorian attitude.
Anyway, I don’t want to sidetrack the original issue of Navjeet’s suicide. But I feel that even this ties into it – neglect does not start in a vacuum.
Jane, reread your comment. It was a foolish, juvenile, dismissive distortion of Hinduism. No more proof of this is needed than your resorting to personal comments about me.
As for Jaibaby, he baits me quite as much as I bait him. The difference is that I find it fun because he takes it seriously and starts to foam at the mouth.
I read where even Gandhi proposed that the erotic sculptures of Khajaraho should be destroyed, leaving the buildings standing though.
Yes, but RabindraNath Tagore wrote him a letter crticizing him on that issue, and he dropped it. To say the least, Gandhi’s ideas on sex where his own journey – part experiences, part his own interpretation. His closest ocnfidants used to openly disagree with him on various issues.
I have to agree with DQ that Hinduism is no more uptight than Christianity or any other religion.
I know today is “Hinduism as I see it” fest, so be it, but through your own prism. The same holds for mother-son relationship dialogue.
Sophomoric at best……..lala……….
DQ – Your comment, below, reads like the begining of a penthouse letter.
“You don’t drink, eh Jaibaby? How did I know that? Bet there’s lots more you don’t do…”
Please share the rest……….
Hema, regarding black men and their attachment to their mothers vis.a.vis desi males.
I’ve noticed this in regards to my own friends, but it takes on totally different hues, due to the differences in the culture.
There are less PIDs (public displays of (physical) affection) of that attachment, black men are less likely to live with their mothers in the same house once they take up with a mate. Demonstrable physical affection to the girlfriend/wife is still shown in front of the mother. And so on.
As for Jaibaby, he baits me quite as much as I bait him. The difference is that I find it fun because he takes it seriously and starts to foam at the mouth.
soundz like tragedy of the commons here.
your baiting of jai has been great fun for you, but has it been good for the threads in which the exchanges occurred? but whatever, not my blog. but at the current rate perhaps the comment threads will become yours by default as the tone reflects your own sensibilities.
Mystic,
Fair enough – I don’t disagree that there’s a strong strain of anti-sexual asceticism in Hinduism. But the opposite may also be found in a lot of the lore.
I do have to disagree with you about the Kama Sutra. My very conservative uncle bought a copy and read it with his new wife (she blabbed about it to me, being fairly Westernized) AND tried out a lot of the positions. You have to understand the milieu my family comes from to see how extraordinary this is – very conservative orthodox Bengali Hindus. I figure if my uncle’s doing it, lots of people are doing it.
You could also argue that Gandhi was influenced by Christianity and Victorian mores, and that these compounded the ascetic strains in his nature. As we have seen in the other thread, Hinduism tends to be just about anything to anyone. If you’re conservative and down on sex, you’ll find what you need in the scriptures. If you aren’t, you’ll also find what you need.
Not to mention that almost all religions have traditions of ascetism (which does include celibacy) as a way towards to purifying the body. And, they all have sects where this aspect of celibacy happens in marriages.
Kritic – LOL. Let me work on it and get back to you.
I wonder what reaction there would have been had Gandhi’s wife taken up a few of his sexual experiments, the one’s he used to test his will power………
DQ, I ban repeated baiters. Baiting is something that should be done at home alone. The rest of us really don’t want to see it. Plus it will make your palms turn hairy which I don’t think you want.
I read where even Gandhi proposed that the erotic sculptures of Khajaraho should be destroyed, leaving the buildings standing though.
Really.. This is stupid of Gandhi. Well he has said and done a lot of stupid things.. You can try to demolish ideas that you think are not fit, but demolishing some ancient buildings / sculptures based on one’s idea of what is fit /unfit for a religion sounds no different than Taliban demolishing Bamiyan Buddhas.
I never knew about this. Gandhi and a lot of others have just fallen for the strong propaganda (probably Christian/Western taboos on sex and related stuff) of those times.. It’s the same case today.. late 1800s / early 1900s west says ‘free sex’ is taboo and backward, the rest fall in line.. late 1900s / early 2000s west says ‘free sex’ is the in thing, again everyone fall in line.. 🙂
Intern, I guess there’s a lot I need to learn about baiting. But how will I learn if I don’t practice? I’ll make you a deal: If Jai promises not to call me evil, vicious, a liar, and an enemy of the Sikh people EVER AGAIN, I vow never to bait him again (though I really really want to, hairy palms bedamned).
Mystic, Thanks for your post. Long live provocateurs.
Ponniyan,
Let me please quote C. Rajagopalchari, the first Indian Governor General of India about Gandhi.
This sums it all including all his idiocryacies, guilts, experiments, and sometimes plain bizzzare ideas. Nehru, Patel, Tagore all used to argue and disagree with Bapu.
The above quote is from Ved Mehta book – Ved Mehta preceeds Salman Rushdie, Jhumpi Lahiri, Vikram Seth as a prominent writer of Indian origin in English.
kush, are you in brownland or greenland right now?
Sorry, the above quote (#.229) is from Frank Moares – brought in discussion with Rajaji and Ved Mehta.
Also,
Razib,
In greenland – Corvallis.
DQ,
for the record, from what i can tell i agree with you more than half the time. but your problem is one of style, not substance. if jai responds angrily after you bait him, does that surprise? look at the way kush and others disagreed with JOAT. same substance, diff., style.
and i speak as a mischief maker myself. but all good things have their limitz.
kush, get in touch if you need to come to quackland.
kush, get in touch if you need to come to quackland.
Send me an email, and we will do it.
Well, you’re right, and, as you said, I think this is mostly a difference of degree. Behavior, such as public display, is informed by social mores, of course…and that sort of thing is much more de rigeur in American society than in desi society.
As for living in the same house, I can only put that down to a difference in the way that Americans and Asians view personal space, family, and privacy.
Understood Razib. You should know that I’m perfectly capable of expressing respectful disagreement. What bothers me about Jai is the fact that he has made repeated personal attacks and accusations against me across many threads – all beginning with his assumption that I had a personal axe to grind with respect to colorism (I don’t). I cannot respect someone who expresses such self-importance, condescension and self-righteousness on a regular basis. I am not the only commenter to have called him on this.
As for JOAT – yes you are right.
I don’t take this Jai squabble seriously, and am more than willing to bury the hatchet – but it has to be on BOTH SIDES. No more comments about threadjacking, conspiracies, twisted minds, viciousness, personal axes to grind etc.
DQ, we’re all brownz in the house, even if jai disavows that appellation. let’s move on and not be haunted by the karma of past lives, leave the darkness and be born again! 🙂
“We women KNOW what we want, even if we never get it. Some things are universal, such as demonstrative affection and genuine concern. “
This is poetic, you see, I’m going to a comedy show tonight, and this has to be the funniest thing I ever read in my life. Women might “know” what they want, but utterly clueless to actually logical verbalize it, in terms of specifics. Hell, if it wasn’t so confusing as to what women wanted, why would they make a movie with the same title? If they made a movie, what men want, it’d be a short film, nay, more like a PSA.
What do men want? It’s as simple as Chris Rock says it, “Feed me, Fuck me, shut the F*ck up”
Kush,
I’m not against Gandhi or anything. I like Gandhi.. He is a very shrewd person who tried to get the maximum results with minimum damage to everyone concerned.. I just said it was stupid of him to suggest demolishing erotic sculptures just because it doesn’t fit with his view of Hinduism..
I just said it was stupid of him to suggest demolishing erotic sculptures just because it doesn’t fit with his view of Hinduism..
Yes, it was stupid of him but then in the end, they were people of Rabindranath Tagore’s stature present at that time to intervene and disagree. Here is a cite:
woah! ppl be mean to DQ too. kettle bunny, loon etc., etc. The beginnings get lost and people just start flailing at each other for ridiculous reasons. Personally, I think she’s eloquent and very smart. Given all the dharma rain pouring on the other thread, with the lofty metaphysics and what not, sometimes its important to go back to first spiritual principles, like forgive and forget, or at least forget…hopefully the parties involved will take her up on it.
y’all be good brownz now.
There’s a natural mystic blowin through the air…………
HMF
Many women are conditioned to not vocalize what they want. But they want it. And bad.
If I may be allowed to be so bold as you with your Chris Rock qoute, women’s wants are more like, “feed me, lick me, hold me and talk a good game after”.
In cultures, communities or families where women are conditioned to hold their needs second (or last) to others, someone has to teach the men how to love their women so well (in the bedroom and other areas), so that the women will start to feel comfortable saying, “tora ooper-left side may, Pati Deva”.
In fact your comment above in #239 makes me even MORE convinced that it is the responsibility of every mother and sister to condition their son/brother as to hold their woman’s needs/wants above their own.
JOAT – if mothers don’t teach their sons these things who will? The fathers? The same men who didn’t give proper lovin to that boy’s mother and thus drove her to an unhealthy obsession with her son?
It starts with the women, then the sons will learn and THOSE sons will then be able to teach their sons, when they are fathers
If HMF’s comment above does not convince you, I don’t know what will.
My own boyfriend is so considerate and loving and when I asked him how he got to be that way he said, “I was raised by women who taught me the worth of women”.
Which leads me back to Hema and her black/desi/male/mother thing;
Another factor to consider here is that even though black males appear to be much more tighter with their mothers than white males, still, more often than not, both of them got their own love lives going on. Even if the black mother is divorced or widowed, if she’s under 70 she is likely to be dating, and the son is too. Gettin good lovin makes a big difference.
You know what – I think Freud was right afterall!
Now, please allow me to address an issue.
Aninda/ananda/whoever was allowed to call Dharma Queen insulting names – no immediate ban.
Jai and Dharma Queen have been baiting each other for weeks – no immediate ban.
But as soon as I show up – ban, ban, ban.
What offensive or inflammatory comments have I made in my last 10 – 15 posts?
It appears that there is someone who is just banning me the second my name appears, without even reading what I say.
Or, conversely there could be a glitch in the system, as SM Intern suggested before.
But if that is not the case, I would appreciate an explanation.
Thankyou.
HMF,
Let me be more specific, since you complained that women were not.
Change this; “If I may be allowed to be so bold as you with your Chris Rock qoute, women’s wants are more like, “feed me, lick me, hold me and talk a good game after”.
To this;
“COOK ME A GOURMET MEAL, feed me, lick me UNTIL I ACHIEVE A GOOD LONG ORGASM, hold me and talk a good game after”.
Chris Rock be damned!
Now no one delete that if they don’t delete HMF’s misogynist comment as well!
Yes I can see how the below would seem all of the above…
Compared to this…
When you have something intelligent and relevant about a post to say I’ll be around. Till then enjoy the double standard SM Intern seems to display in not removing your bait.
Plenty of practices from Hindu teachings have been and should be abondoned and that also “freak” people out. Sati, caste system, high foeticide rates because of attitudes towards girls etc etc. Criticizing an aspect or two of a 5000 year old rich history doesn’t suddenly make one a hater. Get a grip.
I simply don’t think it’s that simple to put the responsibilty of a grown man on his mother. A mother can only teach a man to respect women and treat them as equals as she raises him but at some point he’s on his own hopefully equipped with the knowledge and wisdom his mother has imparted on him and makes his decisions accordingly. Because otherwise yet again we are heaping all the responsibility on a woman which by association also puts all the weight of the blame on her. When is it the fathers responsibility?
I don’t know about all that. It all boils down to a mother who as her own life and identity is open to being less possessive of her son. When you go from being daughter to wife to mother there isn’t much in the way of recognition as your own person. Indian women could really learn a thing or two about developing their own identities where their lives don’t revolve around their families. Yes its wonderful but these very women then fall apart and can’t cope when a spouse dies or a son gets married.
Risible,
Your comment is very much appreciated. Thank you.
Natural Mystic,
I agree that it is a bit arbitrary who gets banned and for what. Anand called me a crackpot woman and told me to get on lithium. Jai has called me vicious, a nasty piece of work and someone who, in his words, ‘lies all the time’. He’s also made disparaging comments on ‘the way my mind works’. Neither of these individuals has been banned. Yet for making a flippant (and yes, baiting) remark about Jai not drinking, I am threatened with a ban.
Which leads me to my next point. I suspect that in this forum, as in so many, outspoken, opinionated women get shat on. It’s a fact of life. The best way to deal with it is to keep your sense of humour and to keep on trucking. There’s astute people on here who do appreciate your remarks and your attitude.
JOAT – the difference is that my statement was tongue in cheek. You don’t appear to understand that.
I agree with the last part, JOAT. I think stay at home Indian wives are a great untapped source of social change in India. They could do alot of volunteer work just in their own neighborhoods, teaching/mentoring kids in need, providing shelter, food, etc to the hungry and downtrodden. They are nurturers by nature and by conditioning so they should channel and direct all that energy to uplift society and let their grown sons be grown men.
Just as I think it’s the responsiblity for every woman (and man) to get their own life going separate from their grown kids, similarly, I feel the responsibility for the proper guidance and training of FUTURE husbands to be on both the mother and father, but the cluelessness of the father is often the root cause of the dependence of these women on their sons. So what can the father teach his son about loving a woman properly if he never did so?
A woman on the otherhand, if never properly loved, still INSTINCTIVELY knows what she wants because that is the very thing she is hankering for and superimposing on her son.
After the boy is grown, she has to let go. But while he is growing, it is up to her to teach him how to treat his future woman the way she wanted to be treated throughout her marriage. That is why I think it’s imperative that boys as well as girls in these households are taught the “arts” of cooking and serving guests. The same skills are then used towards the husband by the girl when she grows up and marries, so why not by the boy towards his wife?
Such a well trained boy will make an exemplary husband and father who will then teach his own son the same thing. But there has to be the first generation of males trained by females, after it becomes widely spread, then the men can take over the responsibility from the women.
Otherwise you just keep going round and round in the same cycle.
And as women feel their importance growing in the eyes of men, that ambiguity that HMF refers to above will vanish and they will have no fear of SPECIFICALLY DETAILING what they want from a relationship. Thus HMF and Chris Rock will no longer have to sit through movies like, ‘WHAT WOMEN WANT’.
DQ – I hear ya girl!
We need to form an alliance. Hee hee hee.
DQ –
I think your uncle and auntie with the Kama Sutra guide for their lovemaking is more the exception than the rule in traditional Bengali culture. At least that is what I’ve gleaned from my extensive stays in Bengal with bengali woman whom I’ve discussed such matters with.
It all goes back to “lajja bhushana stri”. Still widely qouted there.
baap re baap!!!!
what a tongue this person has
hit it brown, hit it!