There are times when I feel desperately ashamed of my community/communities (Desi/Punjabi/Sikh). I realize this is just one side of the story we’re hearing, and that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions, but it is all too believable and makes my blood run cold.
This is the story of 27 year old Navjeet Siddhu from Southall, who committed suicide by jumping in front of a 100mph Heathrow Express train. Not only did she jump, but she jumped carrying her two children.
She suffered from depression, which began when she gave birth to a daughter rather than a son. Her condition became worse after her husband, Manjit, who left her to return to his native India, said that he would come back home only if he did not have to do any household chores. [Link]
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p>Navjeet Siddhu and her daughter Simran died instantly. Her son, Aman Raj, died in the hospital 2 hours later. To add to the carnage, Navjeet’s mother, 56 year old Satwant Kaur Sodhi, committed suicide at the same spot six months later.
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p>Navjeet Siddhu died back in August of 2005, but the inquest into the incident is just now being held, hence the news attention. The husband comes off as hideously callous in news stories:
The court was told how Mr Sidhu, who arrived six minutes after the incident at Southall station, walked past the bodies of his wife and five-year-old daughter, Simran, to pick up the body of his 23-month-old son, Aman Raj, and take him to hospital. [Link]
It’s possible that his actions had a rational explanation – that Aman Raj was the only one who looked like he would survive – it’s hard to tell without having his side of the story. We really shouldn’t prejudge her husband based on such flimsy evidence. However, even if this account is a media fiction, this sort of thing is far too common and that makes it easier to believe that it might have happened.
Jai UK immigration still continues the same trend. I do agree that ratio (pind related immigrants to total UK Indians) has changed from 1:1.5 in 1980 to 1:20 now (disclaimer – I just made up these numbers). And the problem is not with the immigration trend, but the way “some” of these families have stopped evolving (with the current culture in India). Further, these highly educated groups are exempt from my comments. Moreover, average household income/average education level for an American Indian is definitely higher then a UK Indian.
SkepMod I agree.
American Indian is definitely higher then a UK Indian
no it isn’t. do you know about the chronic alcoholism on indian reservations? 🙂
but i feel we’re snowballing this to the point the issue’s too inchoate to make the discussion productive. may be worth trimming down to
a. the murder-suicide was a grave act. why did it happen? a.1. was it a breakdown of the societal helpline? did someone fail her if she had a psych disorder? a.1.1. what of the mother who was obviously emotionally vulnerable? a.2. is this the misogynistic underbelly of a proud culture? what are the workarounds in our respective areas of influence? b. is there a pattern of racial-cultural bias against desis in u.k. media?
b. is there a pattern of racial-cultural bias against desis in u.k. media?
a) whites hate non-whites by the nature of being white b) whites run the UK media
ergo, of course.
“White people commit rape and domestic violence more than most Americans want to admit, yet we never see our gora friends and co-workers hanging their heads saying, “oh I’m so ashamed to be a gora — I read in the newspaper last week that a gora man beat his gora wife to death.” Yet when we read about a brown person doing this in the paper, for some reason it’s supposed to reflect badly on all 1 billion of us browns. Why?”
It might be because we don’t see ourselves as “White”. Our ethnic heritage has been simplified (and dismissed) in the greater population, but it hasn’t been in our own households. In our minds, we’re still Irish or Italian or Austalian or German or… Even though we all look alike to you. 😉
hm. the presence of The Oppressor is making be feel unsafe and i can not speak. Oppressor, you are using your White Magic and silencing my Voice. please go elsewhere.
Do you also feel ashamed of the fact that nearly 25 percent of American women report being raped and/or physically assaulted in their lifetime? (I’m not saying that you should, but let’s be honest, if we’re playing the “what we should and shouldn’t be ashamed for” game.)
‘cos brown is the minortiy here. Think about a gora in India..and you’ll get a better picture.
Good point..:)
This is not an correct argument, razib, although it is frequently heard. Men also equally, or more so, the beneficiaries of the dynastic effect in South Asia. So, this dynasty thing is simply not a relevant factor.
While women are certainly in a weaker position in India than the US in the social sphere, this is not true in the professional sphere. Men seem more comfortable there than here serving under a female boss. Go to any bank, university or government office in India and you can see how many women are in positions of power. This was true also during the sixties and seventies. A very close female desi friend of mine feels the workplace bias much more strongly here than in India although she really enjoys the social freedom. The issue has been that because of social reasons, women could never educated enough (or in the “right” areas) to do get into this professional sphere in the first place.
Also, big difference between the cities and the villages where most “men’s jobs” are for men. So, what I said above only applies to a small section, but it is still very important because a lot of people (esp. the diaspora) has lived entirely within this section.
American politics is not free of dynasty either – Bush, Kennedy, Gore come to mind. Certainly not an automatic pass into power like South Asia, though. I note that you have noted this in your comment. I’m just reiterating.
I’d like to note Sonia Gandhi also almost became PM. Her glass ceiling came from other factors.
Good point.. So it is better to chose an identity with only a few drawbacks.. 🙂
Do you also feel ashamed of the fact that nearly 25 percent of American women report being raped and/or physically assaulted in their lifetime?
sure. but that’s a male thing, not an american thing.
OK. i bite hairy_D.
I propose a trans-continental march in areas of critical mass in US, Canada and UK on October 21 – for no reason other than that it’s the day after diwali – there will be media focus on the desi community (regardless of religion).
Possible sites – New york, DC, LA, Toronto, London.
Agenda: At least in Toronto, we’ll walk to Queen’s Park – circulate flyers en route – sign a pledge to dispel ignorance in our community. part of the pledge would be to invite at least one person who is not a visitor to this forum to the march. it isnt a protest against the government – it is an effort to get us to put our skin the game so to say. get out and do something. in addition to being more action oriented than jawing about it, we’ll also have a statemetn for popular media which might be biased against desis.
frequently heard. Men also equally, or more so, the beneficiaries of the dynastic effect in South Asia. So, this dynasty thing is simply not a relevant factor.
if men are “equally” beneficiaries, then it is relevant. the sex ratio between males and females is 50:50, ergo, in a society where class and social status is the most relevant for positions of leadership women who are elite can mitigate the impact of their sex. sometimes their symbolism is clear, hatshepsut wore a beard to show that she was pharoh.
Also, big difference between the cities and the villages where most “men’s jobs” are for men. So, what I said above only applies to a small section, but it is still very important because a lot of people (esp. the diaspora) has lived entirely within this section.
a generalization does not imply i neglect diversity. and the assay of gender bias is sensitive to metrics. e.g., sex selective abortion and infanticide is more of an issue in non-islamic countries like india and china, but one doesn’t necessarily believe women have more freedom in islamic countries (bride-price is more common in muslim countries so there is a “benefit” from having girls).
The above is only a partial accounting. The South Asian societies inherently deify women.
1) i do not believe that the notional nature of a god is a good reflection or predictor of a society
2) so do most cultures. even though christianity has a the triune god, there is a reason that protestants speak of “mariolatry.” the godess comes in through the backdoor….
is that the sound of silence i hear?
need volunteers to work the phones, print material, contact media. five of us pledging 10 show-ups to the march is 50 people. that’s 50 like minded people coming together in a city. are you embarassed?
hm. that many brownz in one location? wouldn’t the smell turn people off? 🙂
😀
so i take it you’re in razib? even if you cant make it, we need gnxp to estimate the impact of female infanticide to the sepiate genepool – thus laying the groundwork and providing the moral foundation for the great march of 2006.
right?
Whether or not the argument for mistreatment of a woman is true in this case (and god knows, plain old postpartum depression coupled with the fact that a desi woman has a lot of domestic duties and expectations placed on her, even if she’s struggling with a new baby, could’ve done it), it certainly rings true for Punjabis and North Indians more generally (I speak as one). I’ve heard of or observed ridiculous cases of wife and daughter-in-law abuse that you wouldn’t think would happen in “educated” families.
There’s not much evidence just from the Times story that this young woman was in an abusive marriage, but I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility out of hand.
I don’t know why people here are getting so defensive rather than confronting the possibility that misogyny is a serious problem among their own. The old “but we are more often the victims than the perpetrators of racism/abuse” argument doesn’t excuse just about anything Indian men choose to do, and it’s awfully similar to the reaction of conservative Muslims in Europe who attribute anything that’s wrong in their communities to a vast racist conspiracy against them by the firangs. I can understand why this defensive instinct is sometimes necessary and healthy, but let’s not be so eager to “show those firangs who think we’re backward” or so focused on scoring “so’s your old man” points that we become blind to these forms of cruelty – it’s a very insecure response, honestly. And it protects some pretty horrible desis in the US and UK because everyone will rush to the defence of the abuser so that the community doesn’t “lose face.”
SP, you hate yourself. why don’t you jump off a bridge already!
Maybe some of our psychiatric macacas can help here, but the lady’s children looked a little old for her to still have post-partum dep.
While we go about bashing the desi male, spare some blame for the girl’s birth family. Have we not all encountered mums/dads/families who think their daughter’s wedding day is a day of liberation? Did the girl call her family with cries for help? If she did, did they tell her to come home to them or insist that she put up with the crap because that was her duty?
brown..and round.
I don’t understand what you are saying, razib. Abby #67 said that the presence of women heads of state counters the assertion that India is a male dominated society. Of course, it doesn’t come close to doing so. But you said in #68 that it has nothing to do with the status of women and can be explained on dynastic grounds. I say in #110, “No, it cannot because men also receive this privilege, in fact more so than women. So, it does say something about the status of women.”
If you are saying Abby’s point, by saying “presence of some women in power does not mean women are empowered”, I get it. If you are countering my note on dynasty not belonging in the argument, I still don’t get it. Would you explain, please?
I was not implying that you are neglecting diversity. I was qualifying what I had just said in the previous paragraph since it does not apply to villages.
I say in #110, “No, it cannot because men also receive this privilege, in fact more so than women. So, it does say something about the status of women.”
ok.
society a….
class status is proportional to the probability of attaining leadership
society b
factor x, factor y, factor z, etc. is proportional to the probability of attaining leadership
my point is in a society where class status is the main predictor of whether one can attain leadership one can have women reach these positions because the main predictor is their class status, not their sex. in a society where a host of factors lead to one attaining leadership than the cummulative variables which serve as biases against women can multiply to the point where operationally women are excluded from power. in other words, a monarchy where female inheritance of the throne is allowed (e.g., england) maybe quite sexist, but, that is not as relevant to the process of ascending to leadership. now, the fact is that elizabeth I was queen of england because her younger brother died, the dynastic system still favored males, but, that still was a better than her position might have been in a republic, where multiple barriers would have been thrown her way and she never would have attained any prominence.
my point is that the dynastic principle generally favors males, and in some societies it excludes women totally (e.g., salian law), but, it is still quantitatively often quite superior to non-dynastic principles in selecting female leaders because in the latter cases many societal factors prevent women from rising. so, when you say that men benefit more from dynasticism than women, that i can grant, but, in a relative sense, the probability of a woman ascending to leadership in a dynastic society is greater than in a non-dynastic one.
look at the united states. hillary clinton is a serious contender for the presidency. why?
Yes, please do leave. unless you’d have me unleash my barrage of allelles, zygotes, gametes, haplotypes, and pea plants, and get this… some of it might actually be relevant.
the master’s toolz can not be used to tear town the masterz house.
Unless the house just looks like a house from the front, but is a hollywood prop from behind.
Thanks for the explanation, razib. It makes sense to me this time around.
And doesn’t the girl look older than the boy which means there was a boy born after the girl??
The girl was 5 the boy was just shy of 2. There are many things that don’t quite make sense about the story. What you got in the post was my gut reaction, hence the shame. I didn’t want to acknowledge the fact that families where daughters-in-law are harassed for giving birth to a girl, and where men leave the country rather than do housework, were even possible amongst people that others might class as similar to me.
I, for one, appraciate the honesty of your response, Ennis.
Whoa. Lots of comments. I have one (slightly off-topic) question for Razib: How the heck do you find the time to keep up? You’re one of the most frequent commenters, and a lot of times, I want to engage in dialogue with you, but it’s hard to do when you’re crazed at work and don’t get done for the day till 11 pm.
Anyway.
Sriram, going back to your response to my comment:
I see what you’re saying here, but I’m going to turn your attention specifically to the issue of domestic violence. The myth is that DV occurs in “uneducated” communities in which the women don’t know better and the men take advantage. This couldn’t be further from the truth. I’ve studied DV and worked with several DV orgs; the problem is widespread in the West though perhaps (unfortunately) silenced even more.
I know many highly educated and accomplished women, both desi and non, living here in the US, who have been the victims of emotional and physical abuse. These are women who range from high school graduates to PhDs. The problem transcends class, education and race.
That’s why I think your idea that “educated women who return to these areas to organize and educate their sisters” is not applicable in the same way as the jobs/women’s movement example. I believe the problem is attitudinal–it’s deeply rooted in the way we think about men and women. Why are issues of violence/abuse so hushed in so many communities around the world? Anecdotally, I can think of dozens of examples in which communities know what’s going on in someone’s abusive relationship, yet no one does anything. “It’s a private/household matter,” we say–and then we wonder why women and children continue to be abused.
And why shouldn’t men be involved in this process? Why shouldn’t men like you and others take a firmer stand with their brothers–imparting the idea that it is not cool, not manly, not honorable to abuse their wives? Men have a much better chance of influencing other men, and that’s why I think the solution has to begin with the progressive males. Let’s change the way we think–in South Asian culture and in the West.
I have one (slightly off-topic) question for Razib: How the heck do you find the time to keep up? You’re one of the most frequent commenters, and a lot of times
shrug
look at my frequency of comments and you’ll see it comes in bursts. also, i don’t comment on many blogs. comments like this go quickly for me since i’ve written on this topic a million times in a million ways. comments like this don’t take more than a few minutes.
Regarding women in positions of power in India: I admit some ignorance here, but I have read that because Indian society accepts lots of household servants/childcare, it affords women above a certain economic class a freedom to participate in the workplace that is less common in the US. That only applies to women with children, of course. I’ve also read (but can’t cite right now, so feel free to rip me a new one) that the economic gender gap in the US is virtually non-existant among the childfree. That is, the cost of parenthood is borne more by mothers (frequently confused with “women” as a group, but not the same thing) who find parenting placing more demands on their time and energy, and don’t have the same time and energy to pursue their careers – unless they have sufficient domestic help, which is rare here but common in India.
I see your point. My comments weren’t directed specifically at domestic violence and I didn’t know of the facts you mentioned. The short answer to your question is that men absolutely should impart those ideas to each other. The first thought that comes to mind is a multi-pronged approach (this is specific to the U.S.) that uses public assemblies, a public education campaign, and of course, increased punishment to those who do engage in domestic abuse. I don’t know of any such campaign directed specifically toward men, but I, for one, would be a willing participant. As far as whether it would be a success, I don’t know of any similar campaign from which one can draw comparisons. The closest I can think is the Million Man March and the campaigns directed toward the African American male. I don’t know if one could qualify those as successes because the problems within the African American community (family breakdown, murder rates, incarceration rates, etc), don’t seem to be getting much better. But, I guess it’s possible that it might be more effective if pointed at a broader spectrum of people.
but I have read that because Indian society accepts lots of household servants/childcare, it affords women above a certain economic class a freedom to participate in the workplace that is less common in the US.
Nina P,
I am glad you brought that up. Science magazine years did a survey on women in Science and found there were more female faculties and researchers in Hungary, Poland, and then India, then USA/ UK. Their hypothesis was support structure – extended families, grandmothers taking care of grandchildren, cheaper domestic help, etc. and lack (very expensive) of them in US/ UK.
In 1980s, IIT (Roorkee) had more faculty then what I have seen at Cornell U., LSU, IU Bloomington, UL Lafayette, Texas A & M, OSU. My mother got her PhD in 1961 in India.
If you go to international meeting, often you see more female scientists from former eastern bloc countries than any other region.
This is not say there are hazaar (thousand) other serious problems that are associated with India and South Asia.
Kush, That may be due to the communist thing of investing in people (one of the only good things about Communism) and not so much due to cheap domestic help.
I do agree with your and Nina_P’s observation, while also agreeing that there are HUGE problems in India’s society as far as women’s role is concerned.
That may be due to the communist thing of investing in people (one of the only good things about Communism) and not so much due to cheap domestic help.
According to Science magazine, and me talking to people of former eastern bloc scientists, I think they still have quasi-extended family network in place. Perhaps, socialistic ideas might have played role too, RC I agree. Or a places like Russia/ Hungary – older culture in place has figured out ways to let women pursue career.
Leigh Royden from MIT who is a mother too has written at public forums like NYT about lack of women in science in US.
Also, Marcia McNutt, a mother of three daughters, once MIT faculty now CEO MBARI talks about such issues often. She is of the opionion a career track that is not condusive to family will never have the best talent.
kush, i know in places like east germany daycare was heavily invested in.
I have to say, having lived in all three places, that the South Asian community in Britain is very different than that in the US, which is also very different from the Canadian community. It’s foolhardy to draw conclusions about the progressiveness or regressiveness of the US South Asian or Sikh or Punjabi community based on stories from the UK. Further, don’t assume the source is ethnicity or religion–what about socio-economic class? There are many reasons for this–the communities settled at different times for different reasons and had different experiences with exclusion and acceptance. At any rate, I don’t think its fair or accurate to equate the Sikh community and misogyny based on this story. I am a Sikh female and I come from a long line of educated and forthright women. Anecdotally, my large Sikh-Punjabi network, I’ve never seen problems with women being weak in their households. Sikhism teaches gender equality, which might not always be practiced, but is certainly a goal in many Sikh families. ]
Bottom line–stories like this highlight a problem but don’t draw broad conclusions about a community based on one family’s tragedy.
PKS,
it would be interesting to hear more from you in regards to contrasts & comparisons, since you’ve experienced all these brown diasporas.
postpartum depression can exist for a long time after birth. indian women have a history of committing or attempting suicide as a coping mechanism when they feel powerless and hope to get attention. often they do get it, if they are not dead yet. they attempt suicide several times until they eventually succumb to it. this is even more prevalent among women who have immigrated – see kalyani deshpande’s book “giving up hope.” andrea yates drowned her 5 children, one after the other and she was acquitted of murder charges because she is psychotic and needed medication. men kill their children all the time for revenge in the US.
this happens in every community in india. it is a gender specific problem, not community specific.
having said that, i do believe the punjabi community does need to look long and hard at the way they see women. misogyny and oppression exists to a larger degree among them than in any other community in India, although none of them are exactly women-friendly. this week end we were at a punjabi wedding where the bridal family entered the mandap. the grandfather, uncles, father, bride’s” father and the groom were introduced. the mother of the bride welcomed the groom with a tika. there was not even a whisper of who the women were, the bride’s name, the mothers on both side, the grand mothers, aunts – nobody. they all just trailed behind the men who marched to the mandap. this was quite shocking considering the groom’s mother was parsi, and the couple was inter-racial and were born in the US and young. you would think someone would have stepped up and said, wait a minute, what about the women? my guess is it must have been argued that this is tradition and don’t f** with tradition. this is how it starts.
I’m not holding up India’s domestic-help culture as any kind of egalitarian ideal, I brought it up as one explaination the phenomenon of Indian women’s presence in professional careers. The situation in India seems very complicated, with interesctions of class status and sexism (to name just a few factors) creating an environment for women that differs greatly from that in the US. The two societies are almost (but not quite) beyond compare.
I can deal with being a woman here in the US, or more specifically New York. I didn’t like it at all in Trivandrum. I personally think India is a much tougher place to be female, but I was born and raised here and can’t compare objectively. Plus I’m Pasty-American, which biases how others regard me and hence myself, in a feedback loop. Like how I make poor Razib feel unsafe and silence him with my oppression and stuff.
Like how I make poor Razib feel unsafe and silence him with my oppression and stuff.
you mock my sense of Injustice and Trivialize my attempt to assert an Independent Voice, even though White Society attempts to emasculate me as a Man-of-Color? you are so esconsed in your White Power & Privilege and that you have no consciousness of the power of White Magic. begone Oppressor!!!
“you are so esconsed in your White Power & Privilege and that you have no consciousness of the power of White Magic”
The sad thing is, there’s actually truth in what you say.
LOL.
I think I’ve discovered the difference between you and I, this will be my last threadjack.
This MIGHT be true IN THE DIASPORA ONLY (if you exclude Pakistanis) but it’s hardly true for India overall.
brownz? house brownz? field brownz?