There are times when I feel desperately ashamed of my community/communities (Desi/Punjabi/Sikh). I realize this is just one side of the story we’re hearing, and that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions, but it is all too believable and makes my blood run cold.
This is the story of 27 year old Navjeet Siddhu from Southall, who committed suicide by jumping in front of a 100mph Heathrow Express train. Not only did she jump, but she jumped carrying her two children.
She suffered from depression, which began when she gave birth to a daughter rather than a son. Her condition became worse after her husband, Manjit, who left her to return to his native India, said that he would come back home only if he did not have to do any household chores. [Link]
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p>Navjeet Siddhu and her daughter Simran died instantly. Her son, Aman Raj, died in the hospital 2 hours later. To add to the carnage, Navjeet’s mother, 56 year old Satwant Kaur Sodhi, committed suicide at the same spot six months later.
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p>Navjeet Siddhu died back in August of 2005, but the inquest into the incident is just now being held, hence the news attention. The husband comes off as hideously callous in news stories:
The court was told how Mr Sidhu, who arrived six minutes after the incident at Southall station, walked past the bodies of his wife and five-year-old daughter, Simran, to pick up the body of his 23-month-old son, Aman Raj, and take him to hospital. [Link]
It’s possible that his actions had a rational explanation – that Aman Raj was the only one who looked like he would survive – it’s hard to tell without having his side of the story. We really shouldn’t prejudge her husband based on such flimsy evidence. However, even if this account is a media fiction, this sort of thing is far too common and that makes it easier to believe that it might have happened.
Abhi_az
Indians in the UK are not a static people – for every pindu there are 50 ‘thrusting’ ‘spearheading’ cool dudes and modern people, so its always good to just state that, so people don’t go around generalising. Although it will take at least one thousand years to reach the level of perfection of American Macacas, who are the pinnacle of all things.
“you’ve never encountered white guilt?”
That’s totally different, white “guilt” is a term that whites use when dodging responsibiity for acknowledging current gains, benefits, and social stratification, due to past criminal acts, against large groups of people. It’s a temporal distance. And I use responsibility in the sense of acknowledgement, and resistence to a system of privelage.
Lavanya speaks to a spatial distance, ie someone in another part of the world commits something, and we feel ashamed/responsible etc… This is something whites have never undergone, and never will. When Tim McVeigh parked a Ryder truck filled with explosives, white men named Tim across the country did not experience any discrimination while renting vehicles.
Good point…these attitudes/behaviors are not simply Punjabi, you can find them well-entrenched thoughout the Hindi-speaking states as well (but there are comparatively fewer Hindi Wale in the diaspora, apart from Indo-Carribeans who are many generations removed from India). Pakistan has it even worse. ABDs from Bengali, South Indian, or Marathi backgrounds may not realise the extent of these attitudes up north. Gujaratis I’m not so sure about…from my observations, traditional Gujarati culture was as ‘bad’ in these respects as other northern Indian cultures, but in the diaspora things have changed a lot.
“Lavanya speaks to a spatial distance, ie someone in another part of the world commits something, and we feel ashamed/responsible etc… This is something whites have never undergone, and never will.”
not only are you are a blackologist, you are a whiteologist. i didn’t know the bible of human nature was already written, can i find it in the local library?
That’s a good point.
ABDs from Bengali, South Indian, or Marathi backgrounds may not realise the extent of these attitudes up north.
it might not be as bad, but the “stranger” tendency exists in bengali (bangladeshi) social lore. the wife is an intruder whose role is to eventually oust and marginalize the mother-in-law, until the cycle recapitulates itself as she herself is ousted by a newcomer.
Lavanya speaks to a spatial distance, ie someone in another part of the world commits something, and we feel ashamed/responsible etc… This is something whites have never undergone, and never will.
btw, this point is not without merit. i simply object to the stock generalization and transformation of whites into some essential amorphous Other. we wouldn’t tolerate it for browns (or blacks or yellows). two wrongs don’t make a right, yada, yada….
Exactly. When the general population advocates the production of male babies, or decides to rescind the 19th Amendment (hey, some parts of the country aren’t too far from this), or simply treats its women children far far differently from its male children, preventing them from getting a proper education, forcing them into lives of menial servitude, etc…well, I guess then we Punjabis would have a lot easier time assimilating.
I kid, I kid.
Kind of.
Red Snapper:
I see what you mean. That aspect of taking your children with you implies a warped thread of CARING that goes something like, “this world is so bad that I can’t even let my children remain in it, especially if I’m not around to care for them.” The only other explanation is the opposite, that hidden resentments force them to take their children, too.
Either one is horrible to contemplate.
I frequently feel like desis are particularly bad at reviewing and analyzing their own behavior. We’re a community of freakishly-strong rationalizers. In the Western world, I think a mother or father who feels like commiting suicide and taking his or her kids with them would tend to seek help, because he or she knows at some level that what he/she’s feeling is wrong, and deeply disturbing. But I know a lot of desis who allow themselves to feel what they feel, no questions asked, and nevermind where those out-of-control feelings may lead them. The merest suggestion that they might feel differently with contemplation or self-analysis is regarded as a personal attack, and rejected outright.
I really really hate that.
Red Snapper
I agree. I wasn’t trying to generalize, I was just referring to the “pind-related” (or pindus) immigrations to UK.
“not only are you are a blackologist, you are a whiteologist. i didn’t know the bible of human nature was already written, can i find it in the local library?”
No single one, but here, here , here and here are a few places you might start.
I am unsettled by it. But being disturbed is different from feeling ashamed to be desi. I’m Tamil, and while I wouldn’t go as far as saying southies treat women better, the expectations of women vastly differ between regions. That’s why I cringe whenever I hear “Desis are so misogynistic” because I don’t think it’s fair to lump us all together and make such blanket generalizations. And I can’t tell you how many times in high school someone asked me if I’d seen “Not Without My Daughter” and if that “really” happens in my community. wtf.
It’s an excellent point. In fact, free thinking educated women even have the option of wedding one of these wealthy doctors/accountants/engineers while they remain free to pursue other more satisfying life endeavors. Not saying they all do it, they just have the option.
Most Americans of German descent began denying or playing down their German heritage during World War II. Many were motivated by shame at what German Nazis were doing.
Lots of privileged white kids built “shantytowns” and otherwise protested their universities’ investments in South Africa in the 1980’s. Many were motivated by shame at what White South Africans were doing.
Of course I can’t speak for white people, not being white by some standards (and being continuously amazed at what I learn about “white culture” in the Sepia Mutiny comments). I’m just a Pasty-American.
‘m Tamil, and while I wouldn’t go as far as saying southies treat women better, the expectations of women vastly differ between regions. That’s why I cringe whenever I hear “Desis are so misogynistic” because I don’t think it’s fair to lump us all together and make such blanket generalizations.
1) well, don’t southies treat women better if you go by the metrics? (sex ratio, literacy, as well as cultural practices like matrifocality, etc.). why not call a spade a spade?
2) “desi” culture seems very punjabi-weighted in lexicon (“gora,” etc.). the majority of brownz in the UK are ethnic punjabis, and second largest group in the US are prolly punjabi (after gujaratis). i think it is fair to object, elsewise the identity will go in directions you don’t think it should in terms of perception.
and being continuously amazed at what I learn about “white culture” in the Sepia Mutiny comments
well nina, you aren’t a whitologist. you need distance from Whiteness to truly comprehend the eviltude of Whiteness. brown-skinned people with high incomes and fancy-pantz educations are uniquely qualified to comment on white oppression since they have seen such injustice in their day to day lives.
OK – ‘Shame’. Is it good or bad in the following scenarios:
*A Muslim in London feels shame about terrorism in New York, Madrid and London?
*A Hindu in Leicester feels shame for Gujarat 2002?
*A Jew in New York feels shame for the deaths in Lebanon?
*A Sikh in Toronto feels shame for Air India bombing?
Maybe we need a different word, because to me, ‘shame’ suggests a degree of guilt, culpability, and possibly, a kind of acceptance of collective guilt, which leads to many of the problems we see in the first place. Maybe a more accurate description is a sense of impatient anger, gained from personal and intuitive insight into the situation.
With certain problems or stigmas or attitudes we see amongst our communities, we do feel in some way angry and frustrated by their persistence. Does this suggest culpability? In what way can this be used as a spur to action and to challenge? If it is a spur to action it is a good thing, if it becomes a way to stigmatise or perpetuate hatreds, or leads you to forsaking who you are, it is a bad thing, in a certain way.
I would say that privately, we will all admit to these conflicted feelings about certain things, regarding ‘or people’, but given the circumstances and with whom you are talking, this assumption of shame can have differing manifestations. I might privately, or even on a forum like this, admit to a feeling of anger, shame, or even personal culpability for some things, secure that I am amongst friends who will understand what I mean. In a different circumstance, in which a hostile person demands you feel shame, and subsequent to that charges you with personal responsibility on the basis of collective guilt (your group is guilty for the actions of individuals) – then I think I would feel different, or at least be wary of the implications.
India as a male dominated society! Ha
Well, don’t forget we have already had a woman president whereas amrika is not even close to that concept!
Well, don’t forget we have already had a woman president whereas amrika is not even close to that concept!
until recently south asia seemed more mired in the aristocratic principle of leadership with dynasties than amerika. so, the rise of indira, hasina, benazir, etc. is more a function of giving due respect and power to those with a history of leadership than gender equality. trivially clear, but sometimes needs to be stated….
I will not generalize, but here is a story of my own family. My uncle and aunt, who moved to the US in 1980, seemed to have culturally calcified that year. Over the next 15 years, they visited des about five or six times, each time bringing us suitcaseloads of lavender scented soaps, shampoos, teeshirts etc. Each trip, they seemed somewhat out of synch with the realities we were living in India. They made so much of a distant cousin marrying outside the community.
I myself moved to the US and now can confirm that this particular couple, and the people they hang with, have stopped evolving. They live very bunkered lives, around other Indians. They know gores, but don’t really socialize with them. They “have given up” on their kids’s decisions re. marriage etc, but they are even more shocked by the kids in India.
When I read about the Vancouver Sikhs, I see the point.
skepmod, some of the same in my fam (my fam came about the same time). this is a general tendency in that diasporas tend to preserve old cultural forms. e.g., quebec french is relatively archaic, and some of the peculiarities of east anglian englilsh is only preserved in the new dialect of american english (which is east anglian derived).
Do you have a link on this East Anglia/American English connection?
There is a certain cruel stereotype that people in the East Anglia countryside are a little in-bred, ‘Deliverance’ types.
omg i have seen a handful of families like this here in canada…. my friends and i who have all moved to the west in the last decade or so, have also noticed/ commented on how some families that have moved here in the 70s/80s carry an obsolete image of india in their minds and fail to see the country for what it is… this is a particular community, not a general trend, but it was very surprising to me! we have many hypotheses on why this is.
Abhi_az,
The vast majority of such immigrations to the UK occurred during the late 60s and early 70s. Most Indians in the UK — Punjabi or otherwise — were born in this country.
It’s not like the US, where there is currently far more immigration directly from India and where a much, much higher percentage of the desi population consists of recent immigrants.
There is not a shortage of extremely highly-educated and financially successful 2nd-Gen Indians in Britain — they’re one of the most high-achieving groups in the country, and are well-known for it.
Do you have a link on this East Anglia/American English connection?
please check albion’s seed by david hackett fisher. interestingly, during the 17th century east anglia tended by particular literate and industrious (read: calvinist) vis-a-vis other rural parts of england. the puritans who settled in new england were even more so.
‘until recently south asia seemed more mired in the aristocratic principle of leadership with dynasties than amerika. so, the rise of indira, hasina, benazir, etc. is more a function of giving due respect and power to those with a history of leadership than gender equality. trivially clear, but sometimes needs to be stated’
The above is only a partial accounting. The South Asian societies inherently deify women.
There is not a shortage of extremely highly-educated and financially successful 2nd-Gen Indians in Britain — they’re one of the most high-achieving groups in the country, and are well-known for it.
see here.
Thanks Razib I will check it out.
“Most Americans of German descent began denying or playing down their German heritage during World War II.
i.e. becoming white.
“Lots of privileged white kids built “shantytowns” and otherwise protested their universities’ investments in South Africa in the 1980’s. Many were motivated by shame at what White South Africans were doing.”
Again, spatial separation. There’s no risk in denouncing oppression on another hemisphere. How about shantytowns protesting police brutality, inequalities in the criminal justice system, and so forth going on in their own backyards?
Damn Razib, Indians are beaten into second place as usual by the Chinese kids in those school results.
Yeah right, pindus. We are clever macaccas too. The second cleverest in the whole of Britain.
South might have a better sex ratio, but there are pockets where it is as rampant as anywhere else.
Google search : female infanticide tamilnadu
There is not a shortage of extremely highly-educated and financially successful 2nd-Gen Indians in Britain — they’re one of the most high-achieving groups in the country, and are well-known for it.
see here.
Yeah boring model macacas they are. don’t buy the nonsense that they’re edgy and hip 🙂
Razib,
I have to disagree with you, bro. Nobody bears moral responsibility for the crimes of anyone else, either historical ancestors or modern-day people who happen to be from the same background as them. I strongly object to the idea of “collective guilt”.
(I’m not saying you’re suggesting all Punjabis/North Indians/whatever are “guilty” in this way, but I’m referring to the concept in relation to anyone, regardless of their background or ethnic/religious/national affiliation).
You give it one more generation, and we’ll all be golf playing boring old farts voting Conservative.
In all seriousness, I wish a few more Indian kids would fail their exams, so we can maintain the ghetto chic a little while longer, it goes down well when I visit Long Island.
jai;
i think razib agrees w/ you. He’s just asking how do go from that position to having “pride” in accomplishments that are not you own. the same logic that protects you from guilt should also deny you pride.
When? I missed that memo.
I totally agree, Lavanya. But this is why I think we should be thinking of a larger picture in the way Ismat suggested. While it is unfair to say all X does Y, I think we can say, without even getting into cultural specifics, that an unacceptably large percentage of the world’s women are being denied basic human dignity. If the question and debate is framed in that way, someone smarter than I might be able to come up with solutions that are applicable across the board (though I don’t mean to suggest there is some sort of panacea or magic bullet to solve the problem) and need not be limited to one socio/cultural/religious group.
Totally agree. The whole notion of demanding emotion from another person is ludicrous, yet it happens all the time: people demand shame, respect, love, kindness, forgiveness, anger, sadness, blah blah blah. Brownz are definitely susceptible to this, due to strong notions regarding obligation that serve us well in certain contexts, yet work against us in others.
Skepmod, Sumiti: I’ve noticed the same “calcification” you describe. Since these desis moved to another part of the world, a large portion of their lives was dedicated to maintaining a certain set of cultural ideas in resistance to the cultural norms of Canada / the US / Western Europe (all of which are actually quite different with regards to societal pressures, but I’m lumping them together for the moment). But the world sits still for nobody; India marches on, and no one there fought to maintain anything culturally because by default, whatever culture evolves there naturally IS Indian.
The end result of all this are these pockets of calcification (would calling them “cysts” take the metaphor too far?) abroad. It happens with other cultures, too, by the way. And various members of the following generation tends to see it as a whole bunch of irrelevant nonsense. The facades sometimes are torn down, or find their way into the colloquial, or become marginalized, or just become fodder for humorous anecdotes.
Having something to struggle against sometimes gives you something to stand for, even if you never really try to define it.
I’ve often read those stats about Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK being left behind, but rarely encountered an explanation (besides the unsatisfactory Islam-is-a-dumbing-down-mechanism one). Razib, any idea? Different immigration patterns?
Manju,
Which, somewhat ironically (considering the main article of this thread), is also one of the fundamental teachings of Sikhism.
I don’t think anyone should have any pride in certain behaviour exhibited by another party who’s from the same background as you unless you agree with their behaviour and would do the same if you were in their position (ie. you share the same beliefs/motives/ideologies driving their actions).
Exactly the same concept applies to “shame” too — you should not feel ashamed of anything your ancestors or people from the same background have done, unless you personally agree with their negative actions (or were in a position to stop them but did not do so).
Lavanya:
Its 100% fair. Don’t expect people from other countries to say “Indians..from the state of Punjab are …”. This is too far fetched. The ‘blanket generaliztion’ has both positive and negative connotations at times.
We all are lumped together…India prides itself on “unity in diversity”.
“Its 100% fair. Don’t expect people from other countries to say “Indians..from the state of Punjab are …”. This is too far fetched. The ‘blanket generaliztion’ has both positive and negative connotations at times.”
It’s not fair, it’s just realistic
Sakshi,
Sorry, I mean prime minister….not president.
And I agree with lavanya. Why should I or you feel guilty or ashamed about it unless you have personally taken part in it! How can I feel guilty or held responsible for the actions of a billion people. I mean if someone asks me why does this happen in india i.e. female infanticide….I say I really don’t know, my family or any of our relatives/friends never participated in any such shit! Yes, it happens in India but then if I ask my american co worker why do mormons have many wives……they don’t know either.
You are absolutely right, Sumiti. And I’m not denying that there will be instances when necessary help will come from the top (e.g., the U.S. Supreme Court and its Brown v. Board of Ed. decision). But your example also illustrates the chicken/egg problem that I tried to describe in a previous comment. Were these laws you cite passed due to the kindness of the legislature, or was it the result of a groundswell of individuals demanding their basic human rights? My guess, not being familiar with the situation, is that it was a combination of both. However, I’d be willing to wager that the laws are more a result of the latter than the former.
I’ve often read those stats about Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in the UK being left behind, but rarely encountered an explanation (besides the unsatisfactory Islam-is-a-dumbing-down-mechanism one). Razib, any idea? Different immigration patterns?
well
1) “indians” from what i know include a diverse group, and include the east african emigres who are particularly accomplished. there is no equivalent among pakistanis (ismailis are accomplished, but i think they would be included as “indian” mostly, i don’t know how many live in pakistan).
2) bangladeshis are much more likely to be FOB.
3) i think islam might be a factor, but i think it is due to social assimilation with non-british exemplars. sikhs are a good comparison with the pakistanis, as both are ethnically the same, and my understanding is that the SES origin difference is not great.
see here for a long post on the topic.
Abby – Nobody is trying to hold you responsible. Some people are just “curious” about things which they haven’t seen..so the best person (in their opinion) to ask is the fellow Indian co-worker. I have no qualms answering such questions/queries as long as they are asked in right earnest. If the purpose is to ridicule/stigmatize Indian culture, then I do give them a mouthful.
I think we can say, without even getting into cultural specifics, that an unacceptably large percentage of the world’s women are being denied basic human dignity.
Fair enough. If this story disturbed any of you, do something about it. Donate/volunteer/organize a fundraiser for your local South Asian women’s shelter/family assistance organization, or start one if you don’t have one in your area. If you know of family members/family friends going through abusive domestic situations, become an advocate for those women and reach out to them instead of idly doing nothing. But please refrain from self-hating rants of “I am so embarrassed to be desi, our culture is so oppressive towards women, India is a male dominated society,” etc. These are loaded statements that accomplish nothing. Besides, I’ve heard enough of this cliched crap from goras telling me how primitive my culture is.
Jai:
or course, if you agree with their actions you would not, by definition, be ashamed of them.
I am so embarrassed to be desi, our culture is so oppressive towards women, India is a male dominated society
the last is a fact. the second is i think arguably pretty correct (though it is true of most cultures, more or less, i would argue that north indian hindu culture is more oppressive toward women than south indian hindu culture, and that north indian muslim culture is more oppressive than north indian hindu culture).
as for the “collective guilt” issue. i once talked a german woman, aged 25, who was somewhat resentful for the pall of shame than hung over her generation for what occurred during her parents generation. her argument was that she shouldn’t have to be ashamed for things that happened before she was born. on the other hand, she was quite proud of kant, goethe and beethoven. i objected to this, because people selectively should not be allowed to identify and de-identify IMO. that is why i added “atheist” to my handle, i didn’t want people to identify me as even culturally muslim, i don’t want to be identified with that religion and object anytime someone tries to pin it on me. i am proud to be an american, but i also take shame in what americans did in the 19th century to native people, to what they have done with blacks throughout their history, etc. it doesn’t matter that i wasn’t born here, or that my blood lineage only showed up around 1980, to take pride implies that you are going whole hog with identification and there is an implicit contract which binds you to a past that you take as your own.
agreed. and i cant and wont wash my hands off any desi crap because i … cant. i was born a wee bit too swarthy to be anything but. and yea… i feel equally responsible for toronto’s homeless problem, because… i got nowhere else to call home… so. take notice, stand up and do something, anything. shame is good. anger is good… channel it right.
Its 100% fair. Don’t expect people from other countries to say “Indians..from the state of Punjab are …”. This is too far fetched. The ‘blanket generaliztion’ has both positive and negative connotations at times.
all true, but, it can also be a way to educate people. there is a lot of diversity in india, and ceding to the central tendency because of demographic realities isn’t always inevitable.