This Sunday evening CBS’s 60 Minutes has what is promising to be an explosive interview with President Pervez Musharraf. Check out the tidbit they have leaked early:
President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan tells Steve Kroft that after 9/11, the U.S. threatened to bomb his country if it didn’t help America’s war on terrorism.
Kroft’s interview with the Pakistani leader, in which he also discusses his embarrassment over his country’s nuclear secrets getting into the hands of other nations, will be broadcast Sunday, Sept. 24, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.
Musharraf says the threat came from then-Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and was delivered to Musharraf’s intelligence director.
“The intelligence director told me that (Armitage) said, ‘Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age,’ ” recalls Musharraf. It was insulting, he says. “I think it was a very rude remark.” But he reacted to it in a responsible way, he tells Kroft. “One has to think and take actions in the interests of the nation, and that’s what I did…” [Link]
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p>Geez. That Armitage seems to have a big mouth. I’m sure we all figured that Pakistan was strong-armed into turning on the Taliban (as well they should have been), but hearing that such stark language was used is almost as surprising as hearing Musharraf admit it. I’m not sure how this will go over with some in the home crowd. Musharraf also admits to his most embarrassing moment as President:
“(Tenet) took his briefcase out, passed me some papers. It was a centrifuge design with all its numbers and signatures of Pakistan. It was the most embarrassing moment,” Musharraf reveals. He learned then, he says, that not only were blueprints being given to Iran and North Korea, but the centrifuges themselves — the crucial technology needed to enrich uranium to weapons grade — were being passed to them. “(Khan) gave them centrifuge designs. He gave them centrifuge parts. He gave them centrifuges.”
Despite the fact that the military was guarding Khan’s nuclear facilities and the total amount of secret material sent from the lab was more than 18 tons, Musharraf denies anyone in the government or military had to know. [Link]
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p>Incidentally, Mr. Musharraf is stateside right now and just attended a conference with the likes of Bill Clinton and Laura Bush.
Mr. Musharraf took the lead as news-making head of state. He said “a lot of tensions in the Muslim world” were caused by the furor involving Pope Benedict XVI’s citation of a medieval text saying some of Muhammad’s teachings were “evil and inhuman.” Mr. Musharraf added that the pope’s remarks “were most unwarranted.”
“It is a time for interfaith harmony,” Mr. Musharraf said later in the conference session. No one has the right, he continued, “to hurt anybody else’s feelings, least of all at this time.”
Referring to Muslims, Mr. Musharraf added: “The world thinks that we don’t believe in democracy, we don’t believe in modernization, we don’t believe in secularism. Let me assure this house that Islam in theory believes in all of them.”
Mr. Musharraf also said the continued presence of American troops in Afghanistan was contributing to the resurgence of the Taliban and was intensifying instability there.
“They are coming back because of the presence of foreign troops,” he said. “There certainly is an antipathy to foreign presence in Afghanistan.”
The Pakistani leader emphasized that in his view, the conflict between the Israeli and Palestinian governments remained the greatest threat to security and political stability in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Lebanon.
“It lies at the core of everything,” he said. “We must not open new fronts — we must start closing fronts…” [Link]
Those are some wise words that he ends with.
Amfd – While I agree, the white house and everbody else, should pressure Pakistan on the dreaded Hudood ordinance, it would be much better if change came from within. At times like these, I wonder, whither the Pakistani left? and, If may I ask without offending anybody – where is the Muslim left?
p.s. an ahmediya friend of mine cannot travel out of Pakistan, without denouncing his faith and accepting the prophet Muhammad as the last prophet.
Kritc, Al-mujahid — are you all not paying any attnetion to PK news?! Go read this, and this. Then come back.
Kritic wrote: At times like these, I wonder, whither the Pakistani left? and, If may I ask without offending anybody – where is the Muslim left?
These kinds of questrions aren’t offensive, if meant well. But they are offensive if the questioner hasn’t made the least effort to be well-informed. Simple googling (or just reading newspapers) will give you a lot of your answers — like the above links. Don’t be a lazy “kritic” — be an intelligent one.
ok… that hudood link is scary…
but is it practiced because that would mean that those who stole the centrifuge design should have their hands cut off.
Musharaff seems to follow the George Costanza logic “It’s not a lie if you believe it.” So, chances are good that America did warn Pakistan that it would be in its interest to abandon the Taliban and support the U.S. They probably did not go into specifics, but since Musharaff is a military man, and views all matters through such a viewpoint, he feared a military action by the U.S.
Pakistani diplomats do seem more polished than Indians – but as has been posted, that may be due to Pakistan being run by the same landowning/military oligorachy. In democracies, dimplomats are put forth that represent the viewpoints of its constituents. That applies to America too – Jesse Helms was the head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and actually introduced Benazir Bhutto as the PM of India.
Thankfully, India is being judged more by the skills of its private sector than the clumsiness of its political class.
Ikram – An “Eteraz” here and an op-ed there, does not a left (movement ) make.
When I query, I ask about a movement and, not individuals. The fact that discrimination against non-Muslims is legally sanctioned in Pakistan and yet, life goes on for the Pakistani intelligentia, speaks volumes.
Ikram – since you urge me to research, I too would urger you to reaearch the gaping difference between the responses to the Gujarat progrom and the ethnic cleansing of the non-Muslim minority from Kashmir. Very revealing, to say the least.
Musharaff’s statement also has the effect of putting the White House on the defensive. They might have planned to spend the weekend applying pressure on Pakistan. Instead, they will be playing down Musharaff’s comments. The comment seems to be telling Bush and Co. “Don’t push me too hard.” But hey, coming on the heels of shaking hands with Singh in havana, only 2 months after 200 Indians were killed in Bombay – the man know how to work the systems for his own ends.
Kritc, Al-mujahid — are you all not paying any attnetion to PK news?!
I plead guilty! I know I should be reading up more on Pakistan. Just havnt got around to doing it. I dont really get into the whole India-Pakistan Kashmir thing. It doesnt interest me that much.
kritic, Muslim left is behind the move to repel of Hudood ordinance ? I thought it was religious scholars, feminists and lawyers. The move to repel them has wide support. From Ikrams’ second link “Council of Islamic Ideology” doesn’t seem like left. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=geo+TV++hudood&btnG=Search Please don’t bring unrelated stuff (gujarat, kashmir) in a discussion about move to pakistan womens right bill. What does your Ahmadiya friend think about Hudood ordinance ?
You’re probably right, KXB. Or he’s trying to stir up some anti-US sentiment in Pak. Why, though? I don’t get it. I mean, I can only easily understand him trying to portray himself as an alternative to anti-US Pakistanis. But being seen as stirring up that sentiment?
Kurma,
Self-preservation is the name of the game for Musharaff. If he portrays the U.S. as a bully, that will improve his standing in Pakistan. This may come in handy if they ever get around to having elections.
Unfortunately the comments here are starting to sound like an echo chamber. To represent the opposing point of view, Musharaff is extremely popular among the expat-Pakistani community. From anecdotal evidence, among Pakistani-American’s I would not be surprised if his approval rating is is in the 90+% range. Some reasons I can think of is his personal moderation, desire to maintain strong relations with the US, economic stability and the corresponding huge real-estate boom in Pakistan, etc etc.
I would appreciate it if Pakistani’s who read this blog could explain further why Musharaff rates so highly among expat Pakistani’s.
i just wanted to say that those who are critical of musharraf should not let their criticism get in the way of activism on behalf of the women’s protection bill. i have here provide instructions on how to pressure musharraf
thanks
frankly i’ve been dismayed by the lack of activism on the part of american leftists
to the commentator above who claims there is no pakistani left and there are no activists within pakistan, i encourage looking around before making such baseless claims.
here is a muslim scholar risking his life for repealing the ordinance
here is an email from an activist on the ground – you will find him reacting against the pakistani left here
here is an op ed that appeared shortly before musharraf got here
finally activists have also used this opportunity to try and make pro-democracy and pro-procedure moves against musharraf
so please, it is patently unfair to say it is just an ‘eteraz’ here and there.
also, it is also advisable to avoid getting caught up in the PR campaigns (daily show and npr propaganda) and to focus on the immediate issues
Preznit Bush says he was “unaware” of the bomb threat against Pakistan.
Not that he was “unaware.” He’s not saying it didn’t happen, he’s saying things have been arranged in such a way that he can plausibly deny that his handlers informed him.
62.
I am sorry if my comments seems like Musharaff hating. I only want to point out that some his troubles are his own making. And of course there is more that he could do, like act on Womens Protection Bill( for which there is considerable popular support) and not genuflect needlessly to extremists. We could take Subodhs suggestion on macacca thread and write to Jon Stewart(thedailyshow@comedycentral.com) and NPR and ask them to raise this issue with Musharraf.
As a journalist, IÂ’m interested in precision. Thus, just a note to correct KriticÂ’s point:
Not entirely true. I am an Ahmadi Muslim (of Pakistani origin, though I am American). Ahmadi Muslims are labeled as “Non-Muslim” on their Pakistani passports. They are allowed to travel outside of Pakistan (else none of my many relatives would have visited me here in the US), but they are clearly labeled with that distinction. They cannot, however, perform Hajj in Saudi Arabia, for example—because they are considered “Non-Muslim” and their passport clearly says so.
As for the Pakistani left or lack thereof, I believe it exists but is silenced by the mullahs, who wield great political power despite that the majority of educated Pakistani society could care less about them. ItÂ’s true many of PakistanÂ’s institutionalized discrimination against minorities is atrocious. I have experienced it firsthand. But until the mullahÂ’s grip is loosened on Pakistani society, not much will be done.
Thankfully, India is being judged more by the skills of its private sector than the clumsiness of its political class.
India’s political class leaves a lot to be desired but things ain’t ALL bad. I’m quite proud of the intellectual capital of the central-Govt BJP for instance, though they seem to be defunct these days (Jaitley, Shourie, Y Sinha, J Singh, Vajpayee, hell even Advani – these are some serious and seasoned politicians that did plenty of good for India).
Even India’s private sector today explicitly makes common cause with politicians, not just for political favors but because they clearly see common goals (politicians are no longer simply feared or despised) – e.g. the Ambanis hobnobbing with UP politicians, the confluence of private and public figures at Davos, Mittal and the Singh government, India Inc. etc.
Point isn’t that Indian politicans still couldn’t vastly improve. The point is that the increasing mania over “image” among Indians (at home and in the diaspora) is really quite odd.
But until the mullahÂ’s grip is loosened on Pakistani society, not much will be done.
Isn’t this a slight oversimplification? In my experience, even secular Pakistanis who despise mullahs have very strong feelings about their religion as an ethnic identity, which has to be protected from the tyrannical giant next door. The mullahs weren’t the ones that made Pakistan a homeland for Muslims.
Thanks KXB. Like others pointed out earlier, how come he admitted it freely? You provided a very good answer to that. But with all his new talk, he’ll have to go home and take strong anti-US stance to keep the pride of the people. Maybe he’s trying to feed Pakistan some realism as well. Like – “We ARE the US’s bitch/dog. You folks better recognize. They can do anything with us. Matter of fact, they threatened to bomb us. We can’t really take them on. I put our nation’s well being above our honor and cooperated with them. I didn’t do it to survive myself. I did it so we can all survive. I even cooperated with the killing of our friends in Afghanistan. Unlike what you think, I hated to do it, but it was them or us.” Maybe…
bongdongs,
Mushy is definitely good for expat Pakistanis and Pakistani-Americans. No wonder they support him. Is he good for Pakistan, though?
Sorry, I meant to say- OR maybe Maybe he’s trying to feed Pakistan some realism while putting the US on the defensive like you suggest.
Armitage says there was no threat made. We all know Preznit Musharraf never lies…
Of course Armitage and the administration don’t lie either, right? cough Plame cough
I’m rather surprised to see all the nice nicknames that Musharraf is given here “Mushy, Mushman,” etc. Is this b/c of the anti-Pak sentiment here? I’m sure many of you would not be cool with “Singhee, Mammoth Sing,” and would quite markedly voice those views. It’s hard reading viewpoints
and taking them seriouslyfrom those commenters, even if I agree with their statements.No one here or in India ever called Benazir Bhutto or Nawaz Sharif by any “nice” nickname. Zia-ul-Haque and Musharraf, on the other hand, have many. Couldn’t it be because they are dictators? Any reason why you think people here are “anti-Pak” as in, they hate Pakistan or it’s people?
Kurma, If the shoe fits………
Eteraz – As SMR pointed out, Mullahs have not been in power throughout your history and yet, the minorities have been treated reprehensibly since August 14th 1947. To wit; The perpetrators of the Bangladeshi genocide (Tikka Khan, et al ) went on to live in prosperity. The hindu population of Pakistan declined from close to 15% in 1947 to less than 2% today.
Kritic — The 15% figure is for east and west pakistan. The proportion of non-Muslims in west PK afeter partition was about 3%. It is now about 3%. (look it up on this old comment thread) There are important issues regarding minority rights in PK, but your arguments work better if you make the minimal effort to inform yourself.
The hindu population of Pakistan declined from close to 15% in 1947 to less than 2% today.
Kritic as you are well aware, there was a massive population transfer between 1947 and late 1950s. Stating the above figures are highly misleading. Its like stating the percentage of Muslims in Indian side of Punjab in 1947 as compared to percentage of Muslims in Indian side of Punjab today. What was the Hindu population of Pakistan in 1960?
Ikram: They get these numbers from extreme right wing hindu nationalist websites which are no different from the jihadi websites. I have tried to slay this beast before here
Martha Nussbaum has done some great work on the pathology of these groups. Another favorite obsession of these people is the sexuality of the desi Muslims. Here is an analysis of Martha Nussbaum on the obsession of the hinduvta crowd with the sexuality of desi Muslim women and Gujarat riots.
No party in this case of “did too, did not” has got the best reputation with respect to honesty. And Musharraf has a book to sell… this week. Interesting timing to stir up some controversy…
And Musharraf has a book to sell… this week. Interesting timing to stir up some controversy…
I agree.
If you think this is about books to sell, there’s a bridge in Gurgoan (is there a bridge in Gurgoan) I’d like to sell you. This is international politics, a book deal is small change compared to that
Oh I’m sure Musharraf doesn’t need the money… he just wants the ego boost that he has written a popular book about himself. Just like Chomsky is basking in the boost from the free Chavez plug.
Al_mujahid at #79: Your comments about extreme right wing hindu nationalists and that link to Nussbaum’s article have to be the MOTHER OF ALL NON-SEQUITURS. But never mind that. Here’s a question for you – Would you rather be a Muslim in India or a Hindu in Pakistan? Or forget Muslim even. Would you rather be a Christian in India or a Christian in Pakistan?
The question isn’t facetious because in my experience different people tend to answer differently. Those who favor a certain kind of stability in their politics at the cost of “mattering” in the slightest to a nation (because whether 3% or 15%, minorities DO NOT MATTER in Pakistan), favor the latter. Those who’d sacrifice a little of that stability for a greater role in their nation (actualized in multiple ways) favor the former.
India’s failings in its treatment of minorities appear more stark precisely because it chose a more ambitious idea for itself. You can post all the links you want to show that the number of Hindus in Pakistan has remained stable since 1950. But that would be a colossal misunderstanding of the point being made – minorities matter less and less to the idea of Pakistan.
In some ways, communal violence in India is almost a positive sign – violence usually occurs when facts on the ground have to be changed to match an ideology. Hence the frustration of VHP types – Hindu rashtra is still eons away. Why would there be violence against Hindus in Pakistan anyway? They sit quietly and dare not be uppity like Muslims in India.
Please note our comment policy. This is the sort of garbage we erase and ban for. Thanks.
Sigh. I was unclear – it isn’t a “good” thing but it shows minorities haven’t been beaten into submission.
On some small level it may be an ego boost, but we’re talking about dudes who preside over countries. They’re supposed to be psyched that somebody bought a book?
please excuse him as he was disturbed that we had gone 83 responses into a thread on sepiamutiny without any mention of godhra. thats quite a feat for this website, and the fact that godhra has no relevance to this thread is not really a matter of concern
Bill Clinton got a book deal reportedly in excess of $10 million for his autobiography after running a superpower for 8 years. Just because they are/were presidents/dictators, doesn’t mean that they don’t have the desire for any additional financial gain or ego stroking.
I think all it would take to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age is a M-80 firecracker so that isnt much of a threat in my opinon.
And seriouly how stupid is this musharaofff, or however you spell his name, guy?
“UMMMMM, my country hates me, the people riot for the sake of riotting, and people are always trying to kill me. I know Ill write a book telling everyone how America bullied me into the war. That will show my people how strong I am.”
I see a whole lot of people dying in the coming weeks because this douchebag has to make a buck or 2 by wrtiting this stuff now.
Ikram- Do you blog anywhere? You should. You’d be surprised how many indian nationalist types (such as myself) are interested in hearing the pro-democracy pakistani point of view. As it stands I think the discourse on subcontinental politics is dominated by indian liberals, doing a favor to no one, imo.
SMR: No, I don’t blog. When I did, it was mostly on a topic I know well — Canadian politics and Canadian identity. I don’t know enough about PK to blog on it (you don’t need to know anything to comment on it, as this thread illustrates).
I’m afraid I can’t even refer you somewhere — all I know I get from reading the Dawn and listening to increasingly elderly uncles endelssly redebate partition. Sorry.
As it stands I think the discourse on subcontinental politics is dominated by indian liberals,
Yes. This blog should be the antidote (south asia in da house). But it isn’t — a topic for another day.
Al_mujahid at #79: Your comments about extreme right wing hindu nationalists and that link to Nussbaum’s article have to be the MOTHER OF ALL NON-SEQUITURS. But never mind that. Here’s a question for you – Would you rather be a Muslim in India or a Hindu in Pakistan? Or forget Muslim even. Would you rather be a Christian in India or a Christian in Pakistan?
I did not post that link to bolster my argument. I was pointing out to Ikram that the people who post these numbers of diminishing Hindu population usually have extreme right wing Indian groups as their source who also happen to obsess with the sexuality of desi Muslim women.
As for living in Pakistan as a Hindu or a Christian, I would live in the country where my life, property and liberty were better protected. I know there are some Hindu enclaves in Sindh and as far as I can tell their life and property are not under any serious threat though their liberty interests might be seriously compromised. So would I rather be a Sindhi Hindu in Sindh or a Muslim in India would depend on where I get to live in India and whether my interests in life, property and liberty were better protected or not.
I am not a big fan of modern day Pakistan so I am not going to defend Pakistan. I am not going to live in Pakistan either because it is poor, chaotic, corrupt, too religious and generally a place where I would not like to stay for more than a month or two. I do understand that there are some serious issues with the rights of religious minorities in Pakistan and work needs to be done towards fixing the situation. Making fallacious arguments about dramatically diminishing Hindu population takes away from the issue at hand and discredits the messenger.
I’m afraid I can’t even refer you somewhere — all I know I get from reading the Dawn and listening to increasingly elderly uncles endelssly redebate partition. Sorry.
Elderly uncles have mostly ridiculous things to say about partition and related issues. I just love the dynamics of Indian and Pakistani Muslims dueling it out in North America. Most of the desi Muslims I know are either Indian urdu speakers or Muhajir Pakistanis and theres too much bonhomie between these people for good fireworks. Add in a Kashmiri Muslim or a Bengali Muslim or a Punjabi Muslim and the fireworks start.
Ikram: Out of curiosity, do you identify more as an Indian or a Pakistani? If I remember correctly, one of your parent is Indian and the other one Pakistani. I guess you are the real South Asian 😉
SMR and others – Check out these guys. I am not sure how representative the newspaper Dawn is, but I believe it is the largest circulated English daily in Pakistan. Personally I find Cawasjee too backward looking(Elderly Unclely :), Ayaz Amir is just plain stupid and my favorite Irfan Hussian the most insightful and brilliant. Ofcourse I may be biased because his opinions are similar to mine.
Cowasjee Ayaz Amir Irfan Hussain
Dude AMFD, that was way too overboard.
Regarding the number of Hindus in Pakistan or Bangladesh, people can quote reliable statistics (say from the Govt. of Pakistan/Bnagladesh). A lot of people would be interested in finding it out. Indian census takes religion into account and Muslims have grown from 8% in 1951 (I think) to 13.4% in 2001. I’d be very much surprised if the minorities (Hindus/Christians) have increased in Pakistan and Bangladesh like in India.. Ofcourse Pakistan created new minorities like Ahmediyas, but that is a different issue.
Idea of India is different than the idea of Pakistan / Bangladesh. One can argue that Indians have not fully realised the idea. Ignoring the differences in vision statements of India and Pakistan/Bangladesh and trying to rate them on the same scale is incorrect.. A typical retort for this argument from the ‘secular’/’liberal’ ‘South asians’ is that this is a Hindutvadi argument.
I should have clarified. I was referring to the attitudes of the people who are the source of these numbers and not SM commenters.
But trying the point further, these right wingers seem to be obsessed with Muslim women. Muslim women are ofcourse fair skinned and I would rather have them. Did I tell you my love for Priyanka Gandhi 😉
Like I meantioned before Minorities have decreased in Bangladesh and Pakistan because they migrated into India. The latest figures on illegal Bangladeshis in India are 20 million which is only about 2% of our total population. But the right wingers like their counterparts in the US like to raise hue and cry over the immigrants because they are muslims
But trying the point further, these right wingers seem to be obsessed with Muslim women. Muslim women are ofcourse fair skinned and I would rather have them. Did I tell you my love for Priyanka Gandhi 😉
Dont be so freaking lame and change you god damn moniker! SM INTERN: Please ask this guy/gal to change the id so as not to create confusion with my id.
Amfd (the original) –
Very unfair allegation in # 79.
I have requested a Pakistani academic friend of mine to provide me with the numbers on Hindus in Pakistan and, of course, a report on their lot. Shall keep you posted.
Interim, here are some very revealing and, in my opinion, indefensible, not to mention, despicable tid bits. Quotes are from wikipedia. Link below.
“Hindus as a minority in Pakistan have had considerably fewer privileges, rights and protections in comparison to minorities in India, which constitutionally avows itself secular and giving of equal rights to its religious minorities including the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities”
“Hindus are allotted separate electorates (in pakistan) to vote by, but their political importance is virtually nil.”
“The intense religious conservatism and politically charged environment in Pakistani Punjab offers limited freedoms for Hindus.”
“The increasing Islamization of Pakistan and antagonisation against a majority Hindu India has forced many Hindus to leave Hinduism and convert to other faiths such as Buddhism and Christianity.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan
p.s. if i am not mistaken, the much quoted Pakistani newspaper, the dawn has a circulation of less than fifty thousand. just to put it in context.