Early this month, we ran the first instalment of a conversation that DesiDancer and I are holding on the mixed-race experience: being half-desi in relation to desi cultures and communities, and being of mixed race in America today. In the first instalment, titled “Gettin’ Down with the Brown,” we discussed our relationship to desi-ness — the terms of our engagement with our South Asian cultural background, and the issues we’ve encountered in the process.
Today, in “Living the Mix,” we discuss the role of mixed-race identity in general, and mixed-desiness in particular, in shaping our experiences in American society. And as promised, the conversation reflects our take on the many fascinating comments and private messages that we received after the first post. And that’s where we begin:
Siddhartha: So, it’s been a couple of weeks since we posted our first Mixed Messages item. What did you think about the responses?
DesiDancer: I donÂ’t know what I expected, but I was really pleasantly surprised by the outpouring of honest and emotional comments, both on and off-thread.
Siddhartha: So was I. There were some themes that I expected, others less so. It seemed that lots of non-mixed folks shared quite a few of the experiences and concerns.
DesiDancer: I guess the assumption I had made from our previous conversation — that feeling somewhat outside the desi community, while being “in” it — was symptomatic to being mixed. Yet I think a lot of non-mixed people echoed the same sentiment. I never really gave it much thought, but I was interested to make that discovery as the thread evolved. Things like how we’re perceived in different situations, how things like “but you don’t look Indian” can be backhanded compliments, how people mentioned feeling uncomfortable in “desi” gatherings… I realized that it’s not just a mixed issue, and I think it raised some good similarities that maybe we’ve never explored, individually or as a Mutiny.
Siddhartha: And it may have been interesting as well in reverse: i.e., that some non-mixed folks realized that they have these same issues in common with mixed people. I was really touched by the commenter who said it inspired him to get in touch with his mixed cousins whom he had previously sort of neglected.DesiDancer: Oh yeah, Neale made my day! I think a lot of assumptions are made about mixed or 100% desis and maybe this let us share a lot of similarities in experience and feeling, which only creates more power- – to know that others feel the way you do.
Siddhartha: On the one hand, it felt like we brought to light, in that part of the conversation, a place of solidarity — a hidden solidarity or commonality of experience, in which two sets of people with nominally “different” identities (mixed vs non-mixed desis) recognized each other. And it’s all about recognition. But on the other hand, while reading the comments as they came in, and later looking back at the thread, I had a few moments of, “Hey, what about us?” Like, we were sort of moving away from the specific situation of being mixed. did you have a similar reaction?
DesiDancer: I didn’t think about it until you said that, just now. You’re right. I wonder why, though? Are the mixed desis on SM shy to speak up? Is it a non-topic for them maybe, that doesn’t need open-door discussion? Is SM an environment that they don’t feel comfortable speaking up in? There are a few mixed peeps lurking around, and I was surprised a few of them didn’t ring in with their thoughts… We’ve talked in the past (you and I) about how being mixed is really such an individual identity — I don’t necessarily feel brotherhood to ALL mixed people — I wonder if it’s so personal and individually specific, that people didn’t feel the need to put it out there and discuss it. Meaning, maybe the validation or acceptance of others isn’t a factor in their identity.
Siddhartha: Explain that last thought a little more?
DesiDancer: Umm… I have a girlfriend who’s mixed (Chinese & Jewish) and her Mixed Experience is certainly different from mine, on a specific level– though we do share a lot of general mixed experiences. (The “what are you?” questions, the hybrid vigor bakwaas, etc.) But her interpretation of mixed identity is going to be different from mine, understandably. So I wonder — there are so many different variations of mixed desis on SM; it could be that our experiences and definitions are so widely varied that maybe some of the other mixed mutineers didn’t feel it was worth chiming in on, because they felt differently, or they felt comfortable enough with their own mixedness to not have a public talk about it…
Siddhartha: IÂ’m not saying that not enough mixed people commented. In fact many did, and we got quite a few more through back channels, who, as you mentioned, didn’t want to express themselves publicly. Either because they were just giving us props for the post, nothing more, or — and this is a whole other thing — because they did not recognize themselves in the mixed experiences that were mostly being shared. Which were, for the most part, desi + white mixes. For instance, we had a sister write to us who is desi + Arab, and she was not feeling recognition at all, from either community… or from the desi + whatever mixies.
DesiDancer: True! Someone had mentioned to me offline that her desi + Pinay (Filipino) ancestry led to an entirely different set of experiences and having both parents be minority was something altogether outside the experiences we mentioned. Yet she acknowledged that in this country, most people didn’t differentiate between her parents’ ethnicities. Which was an interesting point. I think the recurring feeling I found in comments, regardless of desi + X mixing, was a feeling of disconnectedness to either or both cultures.
Siddhartha: I agree. And that is not something specific to mixed-desis people. It’s quite common among people with totally different mixes. And so that gets back to the question of recognition. You mentioned earlier that you and your Chinese/Jewish girlfriend didn’t really share the same Mixed Experience. On the other hand, there is clearly some recognition that makes you relate to her. And you’ve also explored some of the resources or groups that exist out there for Mixed People. So I wonder where the recognition lines fall for you. In my case, I have to say that IÂ’ve always had at least a sense of curiosity about people with different mixes; sometimes that curiosity actually led to recognition, sometimes it was more, well, just curiosity.
DesiDancer: I think for me, other mixed kids were somewhat rare, that I growing up I did find myself often magnetized to building relationships. But now that I think about it, there were always mixed kids around, just not the same mix as me… While I was initially curious to all varieties of mix, I realize that I had more “kinship”, if you will, with other kids who had an immigrant parent (especially if it was their dad), than other mixed kids. Something about our parents’ generation and the immigrants during the late 60s and 70s… There’s a particular mentality that our dads shared, having had their own similar experiences. My Dad always said he came with 1 suitcase, 1 briefcase, and $1,000… and IÂ’ve heard plenty of dads give the same story, with varying dollar amounts.
Siddhartha: That’s an interesting point. Not just that it’s about immigrant parent, but that it’s the male parent who is the immigrant. That’s perfectly understandable — in fact predictable — sociologically, but it does set up certain gender dynamics. In my case too, it’s the dad who is the Indian, although he was really no immigrant — he only lived in the US for like, 11 years. But there is this very interesting question about what it was that drew our mothers to these recently arrived foreign, dark men in the 1960s or 1970s. And that is a major difference with people who either have the reverse mix (desi mom, non-desi dad) or for people whose non-desi parent is a person of color in the American context.
DesiDancer: Which gender dynamic and/or boundaries are sociologically attributed typically to paternal input?
Siddhartha: Well, I suppose IÂ’d leave that question to the specialists here… But my point is about the household dynamic, I guess, more than about the father per se. A household with a — how to put it — with an Already American mother and a Newly American father, has different traits than one with the reverse. Because it’s the non-immigrant spouse who is in some way a guide for the immigrant one, as well as having the advantage of local family, community and public resources. And when that person is the woman, versus when that person is the man, you get different dynamics, especially for families that formed several decades ago. And the decision by the non-immigrant partner to marry the immigrant partner has different symbolic, or even concrete, meanings. If the non-immigrant is the man, he’s making an “exotic” or “different” choice; if it’s the woman, she’s more likely to face a certain kind of disapproval — and she may well be fleeing/rejecting (consciously or not) dynamics in her family and community. Part of the attraction for a woman in marrying a foreigner is in not having to reproduce the family structure one grew up in.
DesiDancer: Interesting point. And a good segue to the next question I had: there was a commenter who mentioned that her brother looks more white than she does, yet his Indianness is rarely called into question, despite however he looks. Yet for women, I wonder if being mixed is something that raises questions; women traditionally being the culture-keepers and purveyors of family traditions… Is it more important for women to have a strong sense of their roots, at least in the eyes of passing on our customs, etc.? And are women more scrutinized for being mixed, as if it makes you “less than,” whereas men maybe don’t have the same socio-cultural pressures.
Siddhartha: On the culture keeper bit, I don’t know. I mean, women frequently transmit cultural knowledge, but some men do too — it can be either or both, or both in different ways. but your question about scrutiny is interesting. You are asking about people being scrutinized for being mixed — which I guess is something we heard a lot of in the comment thread, where people were talking about feeling scrutinized by desis-from-Desh because they were either mixed or American-raised. and maybe that scrutiny is harsher for women, I don’t know. that’s an interesting question. But it still gets back to this problem of acceptance — IÂ’m mixed, but I don’t feel fully accepted by this community that I feel I belong to, but doesn’t welcome me. And that’s a big thread of this conversation, clearly.
DesiDancer: I guess I’m wondering if there are differences in the level or type or severity of scrutiny, whether one is mixed and female or mixed and male… or if both men and women get it the same. The acceptance or lack of is definitely something that I noticed, recurring through the last post. I’d like to hear from some of the commenters who are mixING, in a mixed couple: how they perceive their families’ reactions and the reactions of their partners’ families, and what the differences are. I think the inside-outsider complex begins with how the parents are treated, as they build their relationship.
Siddhartha: I agree. I guess that’s what I was talking about earlier, that women who “mix out” of a community tend to be more severely scrutinized than men who do. I think that’s a question for the readers. With respect to the experiences of being mixed, IÂ’m interested in moving on a little bit from the “how to get down with the brown” aspect.
DesiDancer: Yeah. Now I want to hear how mixed couples and mixed individuals can bring more to the table.
Siddhartha: OK, so, let me try to focus this. I think we are in agreement that: 1) It’s the “down with the brown” aspect of the mixed-desi experience that many non-mixed desis also found themselves sharing, relating to, experiencing 2) There are other aspects of the mixed experience that might not be as shared/recognized by the non-mixed 3) One of these is what it’s like to be the mixer — i.e., the one who went outside the desi community, and by the same token, the other one, who went outside his/her community to get with a desi. And within this topic, there is much to explore especially with regard to gender — who is who in the couple? — as well as factors like when the mixing occurred — parent’s generation, or today? — and what the other race/community involved is. 4) And another topic is how we, the mixed desis, live our mixedness today — NOT with respect to “the brown”/Desh/desis, but with respect to living in American society today. our loves, our lives, our aspirations, our frustrations, our politics, if you will… Make sense?
DesiDancer: Definitely.
Siddhartha: So, let’s talk about that last point a little. I call it “living while mixed.” We sort of left it hanging earlier in the conversation. how would you characterize the state of “living while mixed” in America today?
DesiDancer: I don’t know– like I said earlier, I think the experience of living while mixed is so personal and individually specific, there isn’t any one way to characterize it… other than exploring to the fullest of one’s curiosity, then parsing out what suits you best, from your investigations and experiences. I couldn’t say that you and I, or Bongsy or Mr. Cicatrix or anyone who commented are living Mixed in the same way.
Siddhartha: So what is it that brings together these organizations of mixed folk? Like, you’ve referred to several such groups. I guess I should ask you what they are and what they do, and then what you think is the basis they have for bringing people together, if everyone’s mixed experience is different.
DesiDancer: I think the mixed-race organizations mostly serve to raise awareness for mixed families, whether trying to gain acknowledgements in the census or things like that, to simply providing a safe space where mixed people can discuss and explore together what it is to be mixed. It’s not structured to be a one-happy-similar-family, weÂ’re-all-the-same vibe, but to nurture open discussions about what being mixed is or isn’t to you, what people see or experience… A lot of the inside-outsider phenomenon is generally similar within the mixed community, though perhaps the specific circumstances vary. I speak mostly about the organizations Swirl, New Demographic and Mixed Media Watch, as I have the most experience with them, though I know a bit about the Mavin foundation and a few other groups.
Siddhartha: What’s the Mavin foundation?
DesiDancer: They do diversity consulting, guest speakers, research & reporting… advocacy for mixed race families, individuals, multicultural and trans-cultural adoptions, etc. Anything with race diversity. They had an awareness bus tour last year (Generation Mix) where several mixed race young adults toured the country, they stopped at twenty college campuses and community centers, working with multiracial and multicultural organizations. And they blogged the whole thing.
Siddhartha: Interesting… So this gets to the point, that even though no two mixies have the same/similar experience, there is a sense that there is a shared agenda that can benefit all mixies. Something to do with recognition (by the census, by society, by school curricula, etc); but also something about connecting mixies together despite/beyond their experiential differences. There’s an underlying agenda here about forming solidarity, even if it’s not of the blood or origin type.
DesiDancer: Exactly. I don’t think mixed identity ends with these organizations, but they are a fantastic resource when starting to make our own definitions of how we feel Living Mixed. Having open discussions with other mixed couples or individuals, over time, fortifies our own sense of identity with being mixed.
Siddhartha: To be honest, we need to say here that the precursor and general model for “mixedness” in the American context is 1/2 white 1/2 black. Which is obviously heavily pre-loaded with dynamics of all kinds, many of which are quite specific to the black experience in America. When people in America say mixed, I think most people assume that particular mix, unless otherwise indicated. And it’s fair, in the sense that IÂ’m sure that it’s the most common of the mixes out there. But those of us who don’t count African American in our heritage don’t have certain extra burdens that those mixies do.
DesiDancer: Right. But as we know, mixed is more than just black and white, in fact there are people (like Tiger Woods) who are mixed of more than two cultural components.
Siddhartha: True. I have several reactions to all this, possibly contradictory. One, I somewhat resent the cooptation of the word “mixed” by just one type of mix; two, I respect that by identifying ourselves as mixed, we take on the responsibility of understanding the historical background of different mixes in American society, including/especially that one; and three, I personally have felt a lot of identification with mixed black/white people, even though that totally is not my mix. I have had many friends and some lovers from that group.
DesiDancer: While contradictory, I’d say I agree with you. A lot of the struggle and exploration of being mixed is the same, regardless of WHAT mix. And when people of different mixes can find a sense of solidarity or similarity, it creates more compassion and understanding, and strengthens us all, individually and collectively. Also, truth is, while in the US, “mixed” has traditionally meant black + white, many cultures around the world have their own words for being mixed: Hapa, to mention one.
Siddhartha: Good point. and desi-mixes don’t have their own term yet. Maybe we need to coin one… But let me get to something we’ve been circling around here. A bit earlier you mentioned the idea of being an “insider-outsider.” That’s a term you and I have used in a number of conversations we’ve had.
DesiDancer: And a feeling that’s been described in the comments of the last post, though not actually named.
Siddhartha: It seems to describe very much that mixed condition. The ambiguous belonging yet never totally belonging feeling, whether it is with one of the communities or the other, or even a third. For instance, I feel it to some degree with France, since I did grow up there, speak the language, parents still live there. In fact, in my experience IÂ’ve found that the “insider-outsider” thing becomes a whole mindset that I carry with me wherever I go. IÂ’m so used to being an insider-outsider that when I encounter entirely new settings (a new city, a new country, a period of time with people of a totally different heritage), that’s the way I come into the encounter. People always comment to me on how quickly I seem to be at home in a new setting. and it’s true, I am. But the other side of it is that IÂ’m never 100% at home in any setting. I sort of gave up a long time ago on “belonging” — although to be honest I don’t think I ever really sought to “belong” in the first place.
DesiDancer: Interesting. I’ve often received the same compliment about being able to come into any situation, with any group of people, and make everyone (including myself) feel comfortable. Yet I’ve also been told I’m somewhat aloof, in that I don’t give in 100% to trying to belong. I think I just realize that there are plenty of places I can fit into, but never completely, so there’s a degree of fluidity that allows me to move easily between cities, groups of people, situations and feel at ease. But in the end, the only place I’m entirely 100% guard-down comfortable is in my own house.
Siddhartha: Wow, very similar!
DesiDancer: And I’m sure it can’t be just us! I’ve just never articulated this feeling until you and I started talking about it, or in a conversation with Bongsy, a while ago.
Siddhartha: And if I can comment, from the way you put it, it suggests some residual discomfort: when you say that people sometimes find you aloof, and when you say that you rarely have your guard down. Those are negative terms, words that suggest the possibility of conflict, or that you are putting a certain burden of effort on yourself. At the same time, IÂ’m sure there are plenty of people out there who only let their guard down in their home, if even there. But I don’t want to have to live a guarded life. Having one’s guard up all the time is bad energy, in the long run. So that becomes a challenge we face — how to live authentically despite not “belonging.” How to relax, in a way…
DesiDancer: Not necessarily negative in my intent. I guess it’s just that I’m aware that there’s more to me than most situations can hold. I love the Diwali melas and stuff, but there are facets of who I am that don’t get fulfilled in that situation, for example. It’s not so much that I’m guarded (aloof is the word other people have used towards me) but that I rarely can be all the things I am in one setting or with one person. My very best friend in the world knows me like no one else, but she still needs me to explain certain desi things to her. I don’t begrudge her that at all, because she’s curious and loving and welcoming. But the fact is I can’t be all the things I am with all people. So maybe somehow in the back of my mind I know that there is always a part of me that isn’t being addressed or taken care of, so knowing that, I never can feel a 100% sense of belonging, because not all of me belongs at the same time and place…
Siddhartha: Yes. And when you look somewhere else to satisfy that other part of you, something else is lost, etc. So it breeds — at least in my experience — a certain kind of self-reliance.
DesiDancer: I think it’s the confidence in knowing that you exist outside of most boundaries, and not letting that threaten you, but strengthen you. Also, I think a lot of us may identify with other cultures as strongly or more so, as we do with our own (multiple choices). For example, I have Caribbean friends and I find the company of them and their families extremely comforting, often in ways that I don’t feel with my own cultures. Obviously every culture has their good and bad, but I wonder if being mixed kind of gives you a world passport in a way, a fluidity to relate to and appreciate other cultures more so, because you don’t entirely fit into your own. I may be over-romanticizing.
Siddhartha: I really like that comment. I don’t think it’s over romanticizing at all — maybe a little sappy… but I think it also translates a real truth. We’re just testifying about where/how we feel comfortable. I feel very much the same way around West African families — or in Africa, for that matter. But one thing I wanted to say is that IÂ’ve known many people of mixed background or other kinds of inside-outside backgrounds — for instance, people from the American deep south or west, working class rural folk like the people Branch Dravidian comes from on his white side — who can be very conflicted — some inside-outside people embrace that condition with its ambiguities and uncertainties, others do not. From way back, like in high school when I went to a public yet also partly private international school in France — itself an inside outside institution — IÂ’ve had friends and acquaintances who really, really, really, just wanted to feel comfortable somewhere. I knew people with ties to France and the U.S. who went back and forth for years — doing university courses and taking internships and jobs — in both countries, at the cost of doing similar degrees in both countries or having to revert to entry-level jobs — in search of “home.” And I know people to this day who struggle between embracing multiple backgrounds and wanting to “find a home,” and find these, at least in their experience, to be contradictory…
DesiDancer: I think it can be an uncomfortable or unnerving place to be: inside-outside. Not everyone feels it is freeing or positive, we’re conditioned from an early age to put things in boxes and shapes and label them, so when we find that we don’t fit into one ourselves, it can be very unnerving or raise questions of self-doubt as to “why can’t I fit in?” I could go off on a philosophical tangent and ask you, isn’t being mixed a bit contradictory in itself? it only makes sense that people who struggle between multiple backgrounds and definitions of self or home would feel a degree of contradiction in themself — it might be only natural…
Siddhartha: It’s true. And institutions always take time catching up to reality, right? So the lack of a census box, or the verbal burden of hyphenated identities, etc., are atavisms that put us on the spot (why don’t we fit in) when in fact, human experience always runs ahead of the words and institutions that come to reflect it… Even — or especially — the Dreaded Question, “Where are you from?”
DesiDancer: Or “What are you?” Because in a sense it undermines the comfort of being able to be put into a neat box or package with a concise label. Which means you’re different. (Gasp!)
Siddhartha: The regular desis who have the two-step iteration (1. “Where are you from?” “Wisconsin.” 2. “No, I mean originally” “India”) think they have it bad. What about us: “Where are you from?” “Um, it’s complicated, IÂ’m 1/2 this, 1/2 that, but I grew up in X, etc…” I can’t stand having to go through that rigmarole, it takes too long and I don’t want to blather on.
DesiDancer: Exactly. It’s too involved to give the whole family tree and points and dates of origin. 1/2 this, 1/4 that, 1/4 the other thing, one-drop something else. Parents came from X and Y respectively but their parents maybe came from somewhere else. Like if someone assumed your mom was French because she’s Caucasian and lives in France.
Siddhartha: Which happens all the time! “So which of your parents is French?” “uh, neither.” “Uh, are they diplomats?” “Uh… no. What century is this again?” Anyway, thereÂ’s one other thing I want to raise in today’s convo, if you have energy for one more.
DesiDancer: Go for it.
Siddhartha: Well, I want to talk — whether now or in the next instalment — about how by even bothering to think of ourselves as mixed, let alone talking about it in public, and claiming the word “mixed,” we are inscribing ourselves into the racial politics of our country — in our case, the US, and for, say, Bongsy, the UK. I feel a lot of — I want to call it responsibility, but I also want to call it curiosity — about race in America. It’s something that I assume is relevant, and that I assume it is not only cool to talk about, but healthy to talk about. And I think that being/identifying as mixed pushes me toward that, in a way that, say, being “just desi” might not have.
DesiDancer: Oooh great point, and something that Carmen & Jen and I have spoken about (the co-founders of Swirl, ND & MMW) a lot. I think it’s when you become aware of multi-cultural, multi-racial identity that you start to see how much it impacts a lot of our daily life in America. Race is still a highly charged topic and the elephant in the room, so to speak. I mean, we think we’re evolved to a colorless society, yet statistically our schools are more segregated than they were before desegregation and the civil rights movement! How is that possible, rather how is it acceptable. In acknowledging my own multiracial/multicultural identity, it was impossible not to notice the color bar that society carries. I do feel a responsibility to be active, educated, and speak out about race issues. Not just mixed issues, but all issues of color. Because the fact is that we’re all one incident away from being the next racial scapegoat. Today it might be blame Afghans, tomorrow, blame somebody else, yesterday we blamed someone different… my point is this. once you see it, you can’t be untouched by it. because it’s naive to think it won’t be your ass next.
Siddhartha: Do you think that mixies who don’t have any African American in them nonetheless tend to have a better understanding of the legacy of racism in America than do non-mixies? Big generalizations in that question, but still…
DesiDancer: to speak in a generalization, probably yes — like I said, the tables could turn tomorrow and nobody knows what group is next. It’s a simpatico thing. Knowing that you could be subjected to the same wrongs, prejudices and injustices tomorrow, that someone else is subjected to today makes it a little closer to home.
Siddhartha: Hopefully.
DesiDancer: Yeah, hopefully. What do you think?
Siddhartha: Well, I think that mixies in general are more attuned to race, yes, but I don’t think it really makes them think seriously about race in America (whatever the outcome of those thoughts might be) unless and until one of their mixed components has really experienced systematic discrimination. So I think that someone who is part-African American, or part working-class Latino, or for that matter part “white trash” or “redneck” or all those words for working class rural/southern white people, is more aware of the full impact of race in American life and American history. If your parents or grandparents were the victims of segregation, or were interned in the Japanese American internment camps, or grew up to constant and casual putting-down by people in power, that’ll make them, and hopefully you, aware in a hurry.
DesiDancer: You’re right. I guess I was speaking more of myself than I realized. As far as the general mixed population goes, IÂ’d say: Aware of race, yes. Doing anything about it, not so much.
Siddhartha: But a lot of the anti-desi prejudice has been pretty mild — schoolyard stuff, Apu jokes, etc — not full-on ugliness that scars and limits your life… until now. Many SM readers are of the generation and class where their parents arrived as “desired” immigrants — technically trained, etc.
DesiDancer: So no oppression or hate, for the most part.
Siddhartha: But others are not. Not so far away are the stories of desis who arrived in the 1930s or 1940s, pioneers of a kind… Nor the stories of working class desis today, like the vegetable cart sellers of NYC, who seem to be all Bangladeshi… And of course, as they say, “9/11 changed everything.” Which it sho’ nuff did, at least in this respect.
DesiDancer: Exactly my point. If people haven’t been aware/sensitive previously, perhaps they will be now…
Siddhartha: And so with respect to mixies, I guess IÂ’m saying that your “typical” white/desi mixie has some catching up to do too… While at the same time, might be much less affected because we can pass. (How’s that for another ill topic?)
DesiDancer: Passing for White? Definitely a long future post there.
Siddhartha: We code white. At least to enough people. And I think that the typical desi/white mixie posited above, just like many other upper middle class, suburban etc., desis, doesn’t get the position of people who are mixed desi/other minority. Like the desi/Arab sister. Or desi/blacks, of whom there are clearly a growing number, but who don’t get that much love in our comment threads.
DesiDancer: Agreed. Or desi/Native American, another mix IÂ’ve met.
Siddhartha: So, lots of material today, maybe we should wrap. We’re going to have to make a note of the “passing” topic — save that for another conversation, don’t you think?
DesiDancer: I think that’s something in and of itself, and not so much what we’ve covered today.
Siddhartha: Absolutely. As for today, are you feeling more mixed now as a result of this conversation? Or more mixed up?
DesiDancer: I’m feeling pretty fortunate. I feel like there are more options and opportunities than there are hurdles. How are you feeling?
Siddhartha: IÂ’m feeling good. I feel like we covered some interesting ground today. Went to the heart of things.
DesiDancer: Mixed, or mixed up?
Siddhartha: Mixed. Mixed nuts.
the context of that person’s anger had to do with their ethnicity being overlooked, more so than their skin color. It wasn’t angst about the skin color, or particular shade of brown, but the fact that they were recognized as things other than what they were, which ties in to Siddartha’s point about coding white. I didn’t read it as “waah waah, I’m not the right shade of brown, I’d rather be mocha than chestnut”. It was more “damn, why can’t these people stop calling me a mexican?”
re-reading this i don’t want to get beat up over it.. i am not saying that he is less hot.. i meant to say i didn’t think he was even close to being from the asian region..it actually makes him even more appealing… yowzer…
Anjali Too,
I asked you a question regarding Jamaica here; http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003788.html#comment88122
H1Biyatch, you got it. The other one was always “Oh, are you related to Senor Esquivel down at the bookstore?” Um. . . no. Wrong subcontinent. (although I suspect that’s not strictly a mixie experience.)
Oneup, I’m ashamed to admit that I have uttered very similar words. In reading your post (#48)several issues came up. I ask these of myself, but I invite any reader to speak up. First, I think I’m short-changing the openmindedness of first generation desi parents, at least mine. While I definitely think they would have had major problems with my bringing home a black girl when I was in high school, I think they have grown, just as I have, to be more openminded. The thought that they would somehow disown me is absolutely ludicrous and should not even factor into my thinking. Second, to paraphrase D.L. Hughley, “If you can count the number of black friends you have, you’re racist like a motherf**ker.” Well, I can count the number of black friends I have on one hand, and I don’t know anyone who is of a desi/black cultural mix. Does this make me a racist? I don’t think so. It might mean that I’m not open to new experiences and that my friends come from just my day-to-day existence. In that day-to-day existence, I just don’t encounter very many African-American/black/multicultural individuals. The only time it occurs is when I’m playing at clubs in D.C. and Baltimore. Many of the places I play have a largely black clientele but there is very little in common between myself and the patrons other than similar tastes in music. So, I realize this is a bit of a rant, but I’m hoping that there are some people out there who have similar thoughts, and I’m hoping to get suggestions on how to overcome these personal stereotypes that I have.
“I could never bring home a black guy/girl, my parents would take the bridge”
……. How many elderly people in America over the age of say 75, regardless of ethnic background, are totally at peace with their children or grand-children dating/marrying a person of another ethnic background?
The desire for one’s children to marry within the confines of one’s own ethnic or cultural group is very common, worldwide.
I’m not saying it’s good or bad, no value judgement here, but it’s just an impartial observation.
sriram, i’ve lived in countries with majority-black populations and they are no less insular about issues of inter-racial socializing (friends) and marriage (even amongst themselves). they are even more insular about inter-religious marriage. i’ve encountered xenophobia, albeit very rarely, for no reason at all other than that i was a different ethnicity and a different religion (the xenophobia i experienced for being of a different religion was far worse than for being of a different ethnicity). it’s a two-way street and it’s natural and human, nothing to be condemned for, unless it’s outright bigotry that physically or emotionally affects another person. from my experiences of living in several countries, everyone is both insular and gravitates to their own and everyone is also open-minded and friendly to strangers and those who are different.
This is true, but it’s not the point I was making. Here it’s not about people simply preferring their own, which I think is acceptable under most circumstances. This is about specifically excluding black people from the table. Most groups of people don’t like to mix, but if they HAD to mix with some other ethnic group, very few people would pick black. And thats the attitude that black people experience regularly.
“Most groups of people don’t like to mix, but if they HAD to mix with some other ethnic group, very few people would pick black. And thats the attitude that black people experience regularly.”
i agree, although my experiences are different given that i have spent more time in majority-black countries than the united states. in those countries, where blacks are the majority, they have both experienced racism due to colonialism but also look down on other ethnicities, putting whites above other black ethnicities or other non-white ethnicities (there is also discrimination against whites as well). many of them also have the attitude of “anyone” but….. (take your pick of ethnicity). but since this thread is more about u.s. experiences, where blacks have not had much power, my observations probably don’t have much relevance and are just to say, it’s tempting to generalize, but really the whole world operates in much the same way.
but i do agree that on a worldwide scale, people of african descent have it harder than anyone else when it comes to feeling excluded by other ethnic groups.
Isnt it amazing how human’s are supposed to be the highest form of life, but what it breaks down to for most people is what color someone is, like they are a freakin peacock trying to show of their color or lack there of, to try to attract the opposite sex.
If we are the best God can do then we are screwed. I guess we should thank God for evolution because as a species we have a whole lot of evoloving to do.
Again, great discussion. Thank you for sharing Siddhartha and DD. And Sriram, as I just read your last comment, I realize how much strength it takes to admit that you hold these stereotypes in such a public forum. I hope you are able to find some solutions through these types of discussions.
In terms of the black/desi mix, as I’ve mentioned before, I am married to a Zimbabwean. The whole cultural situation in Zimbabwe itself is very interesting to look at in terms of race and racial identity. For example, my husband considers himself “colored”, or in Zims slang, a “goffel”, and this is quite different from being “mixed” which is what his mother is. That is, she being “mixed” is half white/European and half Black. A “goffel” is mixed over generations and maybe a mix of black, white/European, and/or with Indians (who have been settled there for generations). Both these groups are culturally and politically not considered Black. This all creates a very interesting dynamic.
Now for my husband, he never truly identified with being Black until his family moved to America when he was in grade school. And of course his racial/cultural composition was a huge issue when it came to my parents. They (well i should say my mother more so than father) could not bear the idea of their daughter being married to a Black man, even if he was “mixed.” The nastiness came out in full form as I was even asked if I could love a “karapi” (you Mallus may recognize this as black or dark) child with nappy hair!!
These stereotypes and questions were an issue for so many aunties/uncles in the community and back in India. It was interesting that after they met him they’d note, “Well he is very fair, I mean fairer than Rashmi,” “You know his great grandmother WAS Gujurati, I think,” or “He doesn’t really look so Black, I mean, you can’t really place where he’s from when you look at him.” It was ridiculous really.
Thankfully my parents and my family have completely come around and fallen as much in love with him as I have. In terms of his family, they welcomed me with open arms, especially because mixing within the Indian diaspora in Zimbabwe is so common.
I’ll stop my ramblings here, but I look forward to hearing more mixed couples’ experiences…
I don’t think its something to be ashamed of it that’s how you really perceived things to be. I could be wrong, but I agree that you probably short-changed your parents. They might not prefer a black girl, but they’d probably come around and accept her so long as she didn’t fulfill the negative stereotypes about black women. Even better if she were Nigerian.
It doesn’t make you racist. More than likely you just go with who you have the most in common with. But it can be rewarding and refreshing to go outside of your normal boundaries to find people who aren’t like you. Regardless of whether or not they are black. I normally discourage people from going out to specifically find friends who are of X race. I think that sort of thing should happen naturally. But if thats what you want, I would say your first option would be to spend more time with the black friends you do have. Tag along to events that may be predominantly black and try to keep an open mind. But this only works if the friends you have are in touch with the black community in your area.
Your other option would be to find similarities through music. You mentioned that you play to crowds with significant black populations. I find it odd that you cannot connect with any of them though… because I feel like every group of people have their own soundtrack to life and people who have the same soundtrack to to have the same interests. I’m not sure what type of music you play though. If you play a lot of mainstream rap, then you might find it hard to relate. If you do I would suggest you expand your record collection by seeking out more neo-soul and more hip-hop artists. Find other DJs who play what you play, and ask them about shows you can got to. That way you can do this as someone who is trying to perfect his craft instead of as a person who is looking for a black friend.
Basically, you need to work with the things that you already like and branch out from there so that you can maintain a certain level of comfort.
i think the real take-home from this lengthy and vigorous IM convo. is the fact that not once did Siddhartha sit scratching his head wondering why his IM window displayed:
…because unlike half the pigs here (ok, only me) he was able to refrain from asking unpleasant things like what she happened to be “wearing right now”.
ONE SMALL STEP FOR MEN, ONE GIANT LEAP FOR MANKIND.
Oneup:
I wish that I had the option to reatreat to a corner where anyone simply doesn’t care. Every situation has it’s drawbacks, african americans insist that you classify yourself as simply black, and I’ve refused to do that over and over again, because I feel that to do this would be to effectively negate the existence of my parent who is not black by any strech of the imagination. West indians care less about race than class, but with that comes along all the stereotypes of being a “coolie/half caste” girl, i.e loose, slutty, etc. So I tend to surround myself with people that are mixed or really truly don’t give a crap about such things, it’s exhausting having to answer questions all the time.I can count on one hand how many black friends I do have, and they’re all West Indian, all girls. So I usually just retreat into myself or go home to mummy or my sis when I need a break or tobe with someone who dosen’t give a crap. It is hard to be told that someones parents would freak out if they brought home a black girl, and after that statement I usually get the “but you’re not really black”. I think that my awareness of racism is heightened not merely becuse I’m mixed but because in every sense of the word, i’m an outsider in american society. Being brought up within two different cultures can give you a vantage point to seeing things that someone wholely american has interanlized psychologically and as such may not be conciously aware of.
PD
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blockquote> Are you still here?
Wanted to ask you about the dynamics between the Indians and Africans in Jamaica.
Especially in regards to their views regarding sexuality and family.
Do the Indians in Jamaica marry or do they go the common-law way?
Do the Indians have various children by various baby’s mammas and baby’s daddy’s?
Amongst my Indo Carib and Afro Carib friends (quite alot), I see a BIG difference in views of sexuality and family.
I don’t like the way this question is phrased, but I’ll answer it anyway even though I think I already have in another post. Jamaica is a highly classist society, and with class distinctions some things are more important to some people than to others. Lower class jamaicans (both indian and black) most likely will not place emphasis on on the same things upper class jamaicans will. Most Indian and indian mixes in jamaica are of the upper class, where the emphasis is placed on education and family. In my experience with my own family and frends, a girl from an upper class family will usually not have had sex before marriage, mostly because we’re never left alone long enough to accomplish anything 🙂 When we do get married, it’s usually between 20-25. The interactions between Indians and blacks in jamaica is less tense than that of say guyana, because indians in jamaica are jamaican first and indian later, they haven’t held onto a lot of indian culture they way the guyanese have, so they don’t feel the need to protect or preserve anything. Interactions in jamaica are along class lines, if your daddy is rich, he might not have a problem with you bringing home a black guy, provided his family has money too, and he’s fair enough. Like white americans here, I could have lived my entire life in jamaica without coming across someone in the same financial bracket as my family. As for sexuality, in my family and some of my friends, we never talked about sex, one of my cousins simply walked up to me the day after I got my menses, gave me a book called the joy of sex, and said read this.
shallowthinker:
Dude, don’t believe the hype. We’re not a higher form of life by anyone’s standards but our own. We just have vivid imaginations (well, some of us) and horrible insecurities (most of us).
“Dude, don’t believe the hype. We’re not a higher form of life by anyone’s standards but our own. We just have vivid imaginations (well, some of us) and horrible insecurities (most of us).”
how true. just now on cnn they reported an incident in baghdad of a young girl who had been beheaded and a dog’s head sewn onto her body. the cnn presenter, obviously disgusted, said with vehemence, “only an animal could do that!” the real truth is, however, only a human being could have done that. i have yet to see a tiger kill a deer and sew a human’s head onto it.
WGIIA: truest words of the day.
Ugh.
I can’t imagine how her poor parents must feel. What kind of “birthing pains” are these, whose offspring include a dead child’s desecrated corpse?
“And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”
Ah, but what about us poor full-blooded goras who feel we don’t fit in anywhere but can’t blame our ethnicity? ;p Much of the modern human experience, period, is about people struggling to find their karass, innit?
I’ve read several comments here about mixed kids hanging out with other “oddballs” — that’s what I’ve heard from my mixed friends as well. Heck, my group of friends were definitely the school oddballs, and while most of us were white, we did contain the only Korean, half-Chinese, and half-Filipina/half-Indian girls in our grade. So they could blame their oddness on immigrant parents, but we had no excuse. 😉 Thank goodness for the web in bringing together all you oddballs, eh?
This is a total tangent, but my favorite story of the day is that my Virginia-born, currently London-resident Gujarati friend has been having verbal confrontations with a downstairs neighbor of hers who’s been opening their mail and leaving nasty notes on the door. The neighbor told her (Brit Bangladeshi) landlord that she thought my friend was the type of person who would be on the Jerry Springer show. So you know you desis have moved up in the world when white Brits can consider Americans of ALL colors equally trashy. 😉
The problem I encounter is that there is no real depth to the interaction when I’m in these types of places. Yes, everyone is friendly to each other. Yes, everyone is enjoying the music. But, when starting an inter-personal interaction, I feel as though I’m at a networking event or a party where no one really knows each other that well. There is no attempt, by either side really, to get past pleasantries (and it’s even more difficult given that I actually have to play and only interact on breaks). Another problem I find is that the clubs I play often have an exclusively black clientele, and they are just not used to having someone who is not black in the room. I can tell they act differently as soon as I walk in, and I’m not really sure how to get past that problem.
Thankfully, I have a family whose reaction would probably be very similar.
Thanks very much for the compliment Rashmi, but I think strength is the wrong word. What drives my self-inquiry is a healthy dose of desire for self-improvement, with a dash of foolishness, and a pinch of hope that statements like the one I made won’t come bite me 20 years from now.
This thread has wandered around a bit while I was away, but a couple of earlier posts caught my attention…
From my experiences inside the velvet ropes at Club Caucasian, I’ve noticed that most whites who actually care about such things do recognize a sort of hierarchy of coloredness, with African Americans holding the lowest status, assorted Asians at the top and Latinos somewhere in the middle. Of course even the “model minority” types are not seen as true equals…
There are, however, regional variations on this color scale. New Orleans is an especially peculiar case. There race is a binary state. You are either black or white. Until very recently there were not many brown types around, be they Latino, desi, Middle Eastern or whatever… The few that did live there were granted an odd status as honorary white folks. A neighbor summed it up for me once, in rather vulgar fashion. “If you’re not a n****r you must be white.” I was listed as “white” on my birth certificate. Even my father was identified as white on various official documents. I lived in a segregated neighborhood/suburb where people talked openly about maintaining the “color line.” Any black family moving in would have been cause for great alarm, but nobody cared much about my father when he was still there… or about me after he left. There were also a handful of dark-skinned Mexican-Americans who lived there without any undue fuss…
Texas, however… where my father grew up and I lived later in life… was an entirely different animal. There brown = Mexican. Being an honorary white has its advantages… but being an honorary Mexican? Not so much… My dad experienced horrible racism as a kid, and I don’t think he ever really got over it. He had to attend wretched segregated schools with the other brown kids, until his parents were finally able to get him into a Catholic school. Most of his friends growing up were Mexican. He even became fluent in Spanish. Moving to Louisiana… a place where being brown was not such a big deal… had to be a liberating experience for him. The experiences of his youth might explain the odd stages he went through as an adult, becoming Everybody’s All-American while married to my mom… and then making a complete reversal of course during his second mariage and associating(outside of work) almost exclusively with brown folks, both desi and Latino. It might not be entirely coincidental that right after he married my stepmother… he had to move back to Texas…
You are either black or white. Until very recently there were not many brown types around, be they Latino, desi, Middle Eastern or whatever
i was thinking about moving to baton rouge, where a gf lived at the time. when i called about apartments over the phone several blacks told me flat out that “this was a black neighborhood, so you probably wouldn’t feel comfortable as a white person.” i explained i was “brown,” and there were a lot of long silences as they didn’t really know what to say to that 🙂 when i clarified geographically, they were still perplexed.
Branch Dravidian
And this is better how? Help me understand, because perhaps I’m not getting your meaning, you’re refuting my opinion by pointing out that caucasian americans that are aware of the differences between minority ethnic groups actively participate in social stratification based on skin colour?
And you haven’t convinced me that the average white american (read average) would not see me and my ex who was born and raised in india, but is about two shades darker than I am, and not automatically assume that we are both african american, which neither one of us is.
Not better… just different, at least in my experience. I certainly don’t see a ranking system for minority groups as a positive development. Divide and rule anyone?
Too true, Oneup! I have a mixed race Asian-Kiwi friend (granted, her Dad is 3rd generation NZ born Chinese) but she is about as far removed from her Asian side as you can get. I think the only thing she appreciates about it is her straightened hair and smooth skin, the only family she talks about is from her European side. Whereas another friend is 4th generation NZ Chinese but is way more interested in her culture. These are , two individuals, though, but I know I could never talk about culture and identity issues with my mixed mate.
Thanks Siddartha & Desidancer for another riveting discussion. I love the feel of the conversation, makes me feel like I’m sitting in your lounge listening to you two chat over a cup of tea!
I have had discussions with my mom about marriage and the type of person I am going to marry, specifically with regard to race. When I told told her that race was not an issue for me and what was more important was the connection I felt with the individual, the first question she threw back at me was: “So you would marry a black man???”. It’s an attitude that is very prevalent among the Indians I know. They are against marrying a person of another race, but refuse to even entertain the idea of their children marrying a black person. I’m not sure where this attitude comes from…
After many months of not getting past that first line (as soon as I brought up the idea of me marrying a non-Indian, she would shut down the conversation and refuse to encourage any further discussion), I finally started getting her to talk about it. I met my SO two years ago and from the moment we met, we knew that this was going to be a lifelong relationship. So for the past two years, I have brought up the topic of the possibility of me marrying a white guy, just so that she doesn’t get the shock of her life when I do eventually tell her about my SO.
So, finally the day has come, next week Tuesday, I tell my parents about my relationship. So everyone – say a prayer for me and spare a thought for me! 🙂
Best of luck Priya: trust me, things can sometimes work out smoother than you expect. I’m a FOB (in the UK), married to a white Jewish guy. Both of us are from fairly conservative families: everybody in my family has had arranged marriages, and my husbands family is fairly observant as well. When we finally introduced each other to our respective families and later broached the topic of marriage, the response was the same ‘Thank god you’re getting married!’ (this had a lot to with both of us approaching our use-by dates, ie, getting into our ’30’s). But seriously, it also had a lot to do with our respective parents liking the person we were with. The other thing I’d suggest is getting a sympathetic relative on your side: introduce them to your SO and get them to talk to their parents if things get difficult, so you’re not the only one arguing my case. In my case, this was my brother, and it really helped to have someone else besides me saying that this could work.
Surya – what a coincidence, my significant other is also Jewish 🙂 Thank you for your words of advice. My sister is goign to be with me when I tell them. She has met my bf and knows that the relationship is definitely for keeps.
Fortunately his parents had no problem with me and accepted me into their family very easily. So I’m glad that worked out well. I know that my mother is goign to take this very hard and I think it is going to be a while before she finally accepts the relationship. Hopefully it won’t take too long. I hope she can look past her ideas of who I should be married to, and get to know my bf and realise that he makes me incredibly happy.
Try telling you mom that as half-jewish half-Indian, your kids will definitely be Doctors 🙂 Or introduce him to Siddhartha! (seriously, I’ve been sending links to my amma and baap, as a way of getting them to think about some of the issues that our kids will have to deal with)
Haha, that’s a good selling point with Indian parents! 🙂
I think I should send them the link to the site, hopefully they will still be talking to me by then! 🙂 I think reading about the different experiences will help them come to terms with my choice.
One-up; I’ve seen what you mean by oftentimes black people are the group least coveted to be associated with by whites and others in USA. Perhaps this is a result of slavery and it’s aftermath – all the tension of segregation and the civil rights movement.
Plus, there is a generation still alive here that grew up during segregation. I find them to be the most prejudicial. The younger generations “appear” to be different.
I’ve also seen Carribbean black people and Africans (from Africa in this life) shun association with American blacks. They’ve often give the reason of “lack of culture” for that.
Maybe I’m just associating with radicals or something, but it is not a fact that all (or maybe even the majority, don’t have statistics) black Americans want to be fully integrated and assimilated into the mainstream of white life here.
NOI (the Nation of Islam) and Rastafari have a big influence on inner-city and ghetto residents and both preach segregation and repatriation back to Africa. Although not all black inner city people have connections to these two religions or their doctrines, most of them do have connections with someone who does, thus they also get influenced.
Interestingly enough, just yesterday I was reading an article that discussed the tensions and ideological conflicts between Marcus Garvey’s efforts to segregate and repatriate blacks and the NAACP who sought to fully integrate. The writer claimed that the NAACP worked in conjunction with the FBI to thwart Garvery’s plans and have his famous Black Star Line Ship destroyed.
I wonder if every single black individual in America was polled on the topic, how many would really check the box “full integration desired”?
A case has been made that black businesses were flourishing under segregation (as long as they weren’t getting burnt down by the KKK), and after de-segregation, many of those same businesses struggled and the owners/managers still weren’t able to integrate successfully into white businesses.
Integration is seen by some as a plan to actually keep blacks down and prevent them from flourishing amongst themselves.
AnjaliToo – Just a note. Thanks for sharing about Jamaican class attitudes towards sexuality. You mentioned you didn’t like the way I phrased things. That’s just the way my particular social class talks in my neighborhood.
Priya
Best of luck with your mum. As I said before my mum is indian and my father isn’t, but my mum seems to consistently hint at me marrying someone that’s indian. Ironically enough, the only guy that she’s ever truly liked, dare I even say loved, was a jewish guy named josh that I dated for a little over a year. Maybe it was because he had grown up around west indian families and had a true understanding of the culture, or maybe it was just his personality because everyone that met josh just fell in love with him. Perhaps when your mum realises that your significant other makes you truly happy, she’ll relent a bit in her views and at least get to know him as a person rather than a non indian. I don’t pray often, but I’ll send a special one out for you.
I don’t quite understand this…first you asked your parents to accept your mixed marriage, which they have graciously done…now you send them links so THEY can think about the issues your mixed children will face…please explain.
hit it brown, hit it.
my amma was kind of freaked, but i’m cool, so of course she’s ok with it now 🙂 though my gf is taller than my parents and sibs, so it is kind of weirdo for them.
To Amitabh: because, umm, they’ll be their mixed grandchildren as well my mixed children? I get along well with my parents, like them and talk to them often. Part of this getting on is because they understand me and how my life is. I’d like it if they could share the same closeness with their grandchildren. They live in India, and haven’t had much experience being ‘different’ from those around them, about having to think about ‘fitting in’. This isn’t because they are small-minded or don’t care. As the comment from Neale that DesiDancer mentioned in the post illustrates, hearing a perspective like this can often a greater desire to connect, and to understand. It doesn’t seem like a terrible thing to hope for that between my children and their grandparents. Of course it might not be (I don’t even have children yet!), but that seems like a decision which its up to my gracious parents to make.
It might help if you went on your own while you aren’t working. Bring a friend, preferably one of the black friends you have already. Treat the people you come across like people instead of just as consumers.
I’m not going to say that people aren’t noticing you because they are… but I find black americans to be some of the most accepting people in america. So long as they feel you are genuine. My boyfriend and I have talked about this. He is so comfortable around black people that he no longer feels like all eyes are on him when he walks into a club, even if they are.
We can take this to email if you’d like.
I’m a little surprised and depressed that people are noting some kind of immediate bias towards all dark skinned people, but then when I am in a situation where most people are not white, I can feel bias from them, so perhaps it is a natural part of the human paranoid psycho-mechanism or something. Understandable, but like Branch Dravidian said, most American attitudes about indians are pretty benign. I’m talking about adults, can’t answer for idiot school kids who look for reasons to pick fights and are just as nasty to each other as to any “other.” Believe it or not, most white Americans (the only kind I know well as a group though I have friends among many races) are aware of the Indian sub-continent and do have a pretty good idea of the variety of looks that come from there, although saris are a dead giveaway. I remember a very blond policeman (don’t know why I added that detail–contrast I guess), who had an Indian family to his house for dinner. The little boy of the family saw a picture of an American Indian and said proudly that he was a REAL Indian. The cop said, I know, I know. The cop wasn’t any ace in the academic department either.
I don’t think most people are placing non-white on any sort of hierarchical totem pole, but then I’m not one of the “dark” ones so I don’t have that perspective. It is possible that some people relate more easily to those more near themselves in looks, but that is true cross all cultures. Still, I take each person as an individual and once I know someone well, I’d be hard pressed to even describe them physically at all. Their looks make little difference. Most couples who got together in a lustful frenzy, find this out pretty soon. Do Indians make assumptions about whites? There are certain nationalities and ethnic groups who would certainly not wish to be mistaken for each other.
I am from Australia of European ancestry married to a FOB from India. Our marriage was a complete non-issue for both our families. His parents, who live seperately, have both said they prefer my personality to that of my brother-in-law’s wife who is Indian, but I think that is because they have had less to do with me. We have two kids, another on the way, and as Sydney is very multi-cultural their generation is full of mixes, so for the time they spend living here it won’t make much difference to them I guess. I don’t really have much of interest to add to the discussion, but I must say I am quite conscious of their Indian ancestry and find it intersting and ponder it often, espesially as growing up in a country that has no culture of it’s own to speak of. Many people, incuding many older Australian’s do compliment my kids appearance, which is nice.
With these most recent comments we do seem to be wavering from the topic, but I think it’s pretty well established from the repeated testimony of various persons of different ages, ethnic makeup, and social status over the past few years of this weblog that white Americans do indeed show great ignorance about desis. What’s more, and this is something that causes me increasing concern as I get older-but-no-wiser, there is an inclination on the part of my white friends to downplay the differences caused by race in this society.
Perhaps, but the question is asked in such a broad way as to minimise the issue. Of course Indians make assumptions about whites, from my own Anglophonic and Anglophilic (lightly dusted with Portugese) Mangaloreans to the darkest (branch!) Dravidian; and the assumptions differ from each to each. In the end most people aren’t malicious, I hope, in their quiet racism; but racist nevertheless they are. One of my aunties would never say a cross word to an African-American, but she did drop such gems as “You don’t have much crime where you live – but then, you don’t have many blacks, either.”
Can Scottish and Irish folk, for instance, still claim this type of casual denunciation, this lukewarm acid?
“Can Scottish and Irish folk, for instance, still claim this type of casual denunciation, this lukewarm acid?” They can and do. The Hungarians and Romanians are apparently mortal enemies. Another case is the Balkan area–all the same people but recent history was of bloody inter-ethnic conflict. I could go on, but as you say, it wanders from the subject of “mixed” people.
I’m sure she’ll lay off those stiletto heels you like, to make your family feel less towered over by Godzilla.
If we close a thread it is for good reason. Comments such as the one above do nothing but throw a monkey wrench into another thread. Please refrain from this. Thanks.
Please, I can’t take another Pardesi vs. Bidi Smoker conversation. It really upsets the mood of the monkeys in our basement. Take it to your own blogs. Thanks.
What the intern said. I’ve just removed several recent comments. If the people who made those comments really want to discuss the topic of whether white people or black people are more ignorant of desis, they can do that elsewhere. This thread has been a place for people to discuss serious matters about identity — theirs, that of their childen, etc. People have shared personal material in the trust that this is a safe space and a relevant space that will not be hijacked. Thanks.
G’luck Priya! I’m sure even if your parents are upset at first, they’ll just see how much you obviously care for you boyfriend and then it will be a non-issue.
Sigh.
It would really help if I was informed before I get banned as to what I am getting banned for.
Some sites give three warnings before they ban someone.
I don’t recall dishing out personal insults like the ones dished out to Dharma Queen from Ananda.
Yet spontaneously I find myself banned off and on.
Anyway, in keeping with the subject at hand, as requested by Siddhartha, and seeing as how others offered personal accounts of their mixed relationship drama, I will share mine also.
I am basically of Irish ancestry with some mediterrenean mixed in.
My significant other is African American.
I am following a very specific Indian based religious culture whereas my boyfriend is African centric and a follower of the beliefs of ancient Egyptian systems.
Although he is climbing the American corporate ladder, his roots are firmly established in the ghetto.
Although not a member of NOI (Nation of Islam), he is very much influenced by the idealogies of Elijah Mohammmed and Louis Farrakhan.
In essence he could be described as a “black supremist”, something he does not deny, though he clarifies it is not “racist”, and that would depend on how you define “racist”.
I personally think he has some racist tendencies towards whites, not as individuals, but WHITE as a concept, or theory.
This is a source of many a debate between us, which often gives rise to the seeds of latent racism sprouting in our comments towards each other, which is something I am NOT proud of, as it goes against everything I hold ideal – both spiritually and materially. Nobody has ever pushed my buttons like him.
I think many inter-racial couples face this, but oftentimes suppress the issues out of denial or fear of their own demons. We are more open and vocal about it because neither of us are concerned about appearing politically correct to each other.
This does not seem to bother him though, as he says it adds fuel to the fire of our passion.
Just like some Hindutva-wadis in India who say everything comes from India. He claims everything comes from Africa – including Indian culture!!! That’s another debate we engage in.
He is not particularly interested in India, it’s culture or spirituality – unless I can relate it to Africa.
He is not looking forward to going to India with me, using health as an excuse, though he is going to make the trip for my happiness. When I remind him that Africa is not anymore “healthier” than India, he has no comeback, yet he is sooooooo excited about his upcoming trip to Africa, in which he is not taking me along, boo hoo.
If we have kids he wants them to go to school in USA (God forbid in our neighborhood) or in Africa.
I want them to either be home schooled or go to a private school in India.
All of this and I have not even TOUCHED upon what our families think of our union!
What to speak of our respective religious groups who would not approve; mine because he is not trodding the path of right conduct according to our traditions, and his because I am not of African blood.
Yet, despite all these differences, people who know us say, “you two were made for each other”. I don’t know if they mean it in a complimentary or insultory way.
There are quite a few inter-racial couples in my religious group and they don’t have these issues, mainly because both partners are on the same spiritual path, where everything becomes resolved.
But being that we are coming from very differing views in that regard – issues come up.
Therefore my theory is that as long as both partners share the same religious idealogy in which all beings are considered equal (as per the Bhagavad Gita), then mixed coupling is not very hard to navigate.
It’s all the extra material concerns; that of a “supremist” ideology, or the influence of one’s family and society, that cause the problem – not the race, ethnic background or color of skin.