Technophobic Geek recently overheard the following at his middle eastern drum circle:
Instructor: So I was playing the tablas at this very fancy and HUGE Indian wedding last weekend. It was really quite fascinating. I haven’t seen a wedding this big in a while.
Other guy: How many people?
Instructor: At least 400, maybe 500 people. It was a really traditional wedding. Not only in terms of the ceremony, but it was also an (with dramatic pause) arranged wedding.
Everyone else: (awestruck) Wow!
Instructor: In fact, it was so arranged that the bride did not smile at all through the entire wedding, not one time.
Other guy: Was she at least over 18, I mean, she wasn’t like 12 or something, right?
Instructor: No, not at all, she was in her early 20s, at least that’s what they said.
(Everyone heaves a palpable sigh of relief). (link)
Our technophobic friend says he was rendered speechless by this (“I had no idea where to even start bridging this cultural chasm…”), so let’s help him out. The first thing he could say is that it’s striking that arranged marriage is still such a stigmatized practice in the U.S. — especially amongst “laid back dudes” in one’s social circle. Come on guys, get over it: learn something about the culture of the people who invented the tabla you’ve learned to play.
Second, it’s not necessarily the case that it was an actual, no-prior-meeting, arranged marriage (actually pretty rare these days in the diaspora). Any help from websites and/or parents is often construed as “arranging” by people outside the loop, when in fact “assisting” might be a more accurate way to describe it.
As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?
HMF,
I agree with practically everything you’ve said on this thread. I’m sure I also recall you describing the arranged marriage system as a “brain-damaged custom” on a previous discussion on the topic — apologies if I’m mistaking you for someone else, but whoever said that was right on the money too.
Absolutely, but the problem is that within “traditional” Indian culture and certainly from the perspective of many amongst the parents’ generation, finding a suitable spouse is indeed viewed as analogous to “buying a car”. Some of them even use this term.
The assumption — and yes I know I’m preaching to the converted, but hear me out — is that if you have two people with alleged qualities a, b, and c, and from a commoditised viewpoint they are x, y, and z (the usual stuff re: regional/religious/caste background, occupation, age, appearance etc etc), then theoretically they should be a “good match” and the marriage should therefore “work”. If the latter doesn’t happen, then one or both of the parties concerned are “doing something wrong”, and the fault lies with them, not the system or the parents who have manouvred them into the marriage.
In reality, of course, it’s not quite so simple. Unfortunately, as I’ve mentioned before, many of these parents have very little first-hand experience of anything other than the arranged marriage process (even if they attempt to modify it as per “modern times”), so it’s very difficult indeed for them to understand the nuances involved in the alternative.
Connecting this to what you said about the necessity to “test drive” etc, this is one of those aspects of life where it’s very difficult to really understand it unless one has personal experience of the matter. The same applies to the concept of genuinely falling in love with someone; the experience is impossible to imagine accurately unless one has gone through it oneself (regardless of whether one has no dating experience or whether one has an extensive prior track record in the subject).
Much of the arranged marriage system is based on guesswork and assumptions. It’s based on “theoretical viability”, not facts gained via direct experience. In this matter and regarding the idea of love marriages, as you know there’s also a huge amount of alleged second-hand knowledge, so-called “received wisdon”, and what we in Britain call “Old Wives’ Tales” floating around. So you have these factors distorting people’s thinking about arranged marriages and who should be compatible with whom, along with a lot of brainwashed, knee-jerk, irrational prejudice about love marriages/dating and the people who are involved in such activities.
Now, arranged marriages are an understandable response if one is living in a heavily gender-segregated society where one-on-one private interaction between unmarried people of the opposite sex is either substantially restricted or prohibited altogether. I may be wrong but I have some suspicions that, for certain historical reasons, this is how the arranged marriage system as we understand it crept into Indian culture. However, where there is no religious sanction for the custom (if this is deemed important by the people involved), where there are more appropriate alternatives which involve greater independence and freedom of action being delegated to the sons and daughters involved, and where there are no rational, mature reasons to really object to the idea, I don’t see why love marriages should necessarily be such a big deal.
This is of course complicated by the fact that some quarters of Indian society (particularly amongst the older generation out here in the West) can be very irrational indeed, and various traditions are perpetuated just for the sake of it, even if they are no longer relevant or practical. For some people there’s also a jingoistic angle, ie. they regard certain customs as being integral to their identity as Indians (you can include extended/joint families etc here too) even if, thinking objectively (if they’re capable of doing so), they know that the tradition doesn’t necessarily make sense and isn’t always conducive to the well-being of the people involved; yet they will stubbornly hold onto it regardless of the havoc it causes or the inappropriate nature of the custom within Western society.
I think there’s an element of intellectual laziness or arrogance (possibly both) involved too; the parents concerned do not want to go through the effort of really investigating the alternatives and dealing with the ramifications. They will also not be so willing to consider the idea of “allowing” their adult children to date because of the loss of control it would possibly involve — control over their children and over the consequences of the actions. So you have some excessive control-freakery here too.
DesiDawg,
(Quick off-topic post)
Apologies for the confusion a few days ago on one of the previous threads. My negative opinions weren’t actually directed at you and I’m sorry if I accidentally gave that impression. I did subsequently clarify matters on that thread, but I thought I should just clear things up with you again in case you hadn’t read my original message.
I hope matters are okay between us in this regard.
Typo on post #101: so-called “received wisdon“; should say “received wisdom” (obviously !)
HMF @ 97: Since you have sort of finessed the “relational dynamics” skills some more from what I took them to be in your first comments; and they now, to me, seem to narrow down to “gaming” (or dating) skills. Yes, I am with your assertion that to pick up these up you have to be a “player” in the “game”, so that you become more effective, polished, skilled etc. Perhaps it is time for me to sign up for a PUA course or not. 😉
I think the issue of arrnaged marriages in India is a simple relfection of agri based economy for last thousand years.
Even now, 70% of Indians live in the rural India. In the earlier days when agriculture was the only source of economy, the parents felt marrying off the kids at an early age (15-19yrs) will keep the sons from wandering away to “other” sources! and keep them tied or focussed to farming. In addition, extra hands in the field means more money!
The current generation which moved to the city like my own dad, still have those value systems! They all beleive that, upholding that beleif is correct. However the second generation like myself and million others who went to school in the urban areas with lot more contacts with girls/woman definitely have an open idea about “love” marriages. Even if themselves entered relationships in a typical Indian style I beleive, and know for sure, they have an open mind for dating.
I think this reflects the change in the economy of India, moving from agri based to service based. Also, the number of reasons when men and women come in to contact with eachother is lot more now. I still remember when I went to a collge in a rural area, many of my class mates would literally have sweat drops on their forehead when they talk to girls!
I think, in the coming days, we’ll see many more datings as opposed to arranged weddings. A case in point, joint family system in India is quite dead for all practical purposes. No once can change the “change”!
Sashi:
Sorry to drag this out even further, and don’t take offense at this, but I’m surprised at two things:
And lastly, I am contending that these gaming skills are vastly more important as the other more “venerable” traits of kindness, empathy, etc.. – in the initial stages. Initial stage success is a prerequisite for final stage success, but doesn’t guarantee final stage success.
If you open a social interaction with kindness, empathy and “niceness” – you’re shat on. Plain and simple.
how old are ? (if i may be so bold as to ask…)
I assume that by ‘social interaction’, you mean a bar or club etc. You are probably right in that context, but not in more mundane situations, I contend.
Personally, I do not consider anything fundamentally wrong with a PUA course, though it is in poor form to brag about it. At least for desi guys who did not grow up in the US, I just see it as a way of integrating into this culture better, developing the particular social skills that Indian culture does not expect, and most Americans learn by experience.
AC, I don’t think it has anything to do with age or maturity or anything, though it’s easy for Americans to make that accusation. Dating involves specific presentation skills, in addition to the ‘nice’ qualities, and I think most people in the US just take those for granted without realizing that they may have to be learned.
Of course, any tool is as good or bad as it is used or abused, so I would draw the line at using those skills to hurt or deceive people.
Of course, this is all theoretical, I haven’t taken any courses yet, maybe when I get out of school and have a real job…
In response to tpgeek@89: Most Indians find it shocking that at some American weddings the bride and groomÂ’s families are called to dinner before the guests. ItÂ’s unthinkable at an Indian wedding, where the tradition is for the family to eat after all the guests have been fed.
Jai, #101 was excellent.
I think arranged marriage and conservatism contribute greatly to failures in “love” marriages in Desh. When a “boy” and “girl” are romantically involved, they simply cannot afford to even think of trying out anything. It’s usually a battle with the families from day one, denying a chance to evaluate the question “Is he/she right for me?” with any objectivity since any wavering will be pounced upon to dissuade the two. The pressure to quickly tie the knot is high. So, people sometimes have to jump into these marragies with even less thought than the formulaic arranged marriage. After the wedding too, the behavior of the families towards the newlyweds may not be that great. The stress can add up…
This usually seems just an excuse to me. As if this lends some legitimacy to their point of view.
Your phrase, “Intellectual laziness” is my favorite too to characterize the situation. I think this is at the very core of the matter. The unwillingness to leave a comfort zone of thought, culture, beliefs.
It seems to me that when there are perceived and real high costs to opting out of a marriage, information asymmetries between involving partners and parties are diffused; conversely, when costs are low or perceived to be low, information asymmetries are concentrated. The asymmetrical information itself doesn’t changes but is managed by external conditions. And that is why people are semi-pack animals and very social.
Since this thread seems to just keep on goin…
for all those interested in their own slice of revenge at the invasion-of-privacy-obsession-with-skin-colour-and-self-worth-degradation-merry go round that is Shaadi.com et al, why not make yourself a fake profile and watch the fun ensue?
All you need is a mix of fugly lies and Green card glory…my profile is called called FatAndBlack, she’s 4 foot 10, heavy set and has two kids from a previous relationship with a white man, but man does that $150 k lawyer’s salary and NZ citizenship bring the boys home to mamma!
Plus you get to see the pics of some of the most desperate people on there since all FatAndBlack has going for her is her money and country of residence thanks to her lack of a wheatish complexion.
And yeah, some of the dirty personal messages I’ve received does show that there are mos’ def people out there just lookin’ for what Lauryn Hill perfectly termed ‘that thing…’ 😉
Tashie, You are very mean and inconsiderate. You are trivialising other people’s feelings. You have just ruined my dreams of hooking up with Ms. FatAndBlack and settling down in NZ. I hate you! I was willing to overlook the fact that you were 4 foot10 and dark with two kids from a nice white man. But, it was all a joke for you. Guess what? It’s your loss; I would have been a good father to your kids and prudent with your dollars. You will be alone while I’ll spend my days with someone darker and richer. Ha Ha Ha. I mock you;)
Nothing is wrong with them. they just cost a #($)@*# load. i Just wished they weren’t as highly publicized as they are. The enemy shouldn’t know about the tactics.
what about ABCDs like myself going to India ? what class should I have taken?
don’t think for a New York minute that it doesn’t require special skill to regale a prospective suitress from the “Desh” on their home turf of India just because you had a brief stint with “Carla”, the busty barrista at the Union Square starbucks who you were able to successfully peel off of a hive full of hipsters and which you now think has given you consquitadorian privelege.
it took me a box of Cham Cham and the tenderest of words to seduce my Pinky as we both sat in the back seat of her Papa’s Maruti along a shaded road in New Delhi a few years ago, just days after our engagement. With an ICICI money machine nearby to which queues kept forming, I thought any attempts at seducing my little gulab jamun would be abortive at best. but after six hours of snoreplay, with beads of sweat achingly dripping off our brows, and after repeatedly repeating the obvious obviousness of it all, we finally leaned into one another and planted the EAST MEETS WEST MASALA MAGIC LIPSMACKER that sent shockwaves across the world.
i’ve seen sparks, but lord almighty.
So that’s what you guys call it. Pfft…typical.
Maybe she didn’t like the guy? Just a thought.
Thomas Kurma,
Re: post #111
Thank you for your response. My apologies for the delay in replying — due to yesterday’s anniversary I had felt it would be better for me to restrict my comments on SM to that topic yesterday in order to prevent any diversions on other unrelated threads, so please don’t think I had ignored your post.
Your first paragraph in particular was incredibly familiar; exactly the same thing had occurred to me. It’s funny how people observe identical sequences of action despite no connection between them apart from common ethnicity and despite being separated by thousands of miles. Your description was practically a textbook example of what frequently happens, including here in the UK (not always — there are plenty of liberal, more rational older-generation Indians around here — but it’s still a fairly common experience). I was born in the UK and have spent my entire life (33 years) here, so I’m at somewhat at a loss to explain exactly what it is within society/culture back in the “Desh” which causes such behaviour. It’s as though they’re all hypnotised and this kind of Machiavellian gameplaying kicks in upon a suitable “trigger”. Why does this happen ? Is it conditioned behaviour by their own elders, or are they just blindly copying the example of other people ? Or, as JOAT mentioned a few weeks ago, is it due to the tendency of many Indian parents to just unthinkingly perpetuate whatever ideas and behaviour they may have observed amongst their own parents, without any objective analysis and without any excessive consideration given to legitimacy or propriety ?
I think that to some extent it’s so that they don’t have to take direct personal responsibility for their actions or their consequences — “It’s not me, it’s Indian culture. This is our tradition and these are our values and customs, and we ‘have’ to do it this way”.
Spot-on. “The unknown is terrifying, requires too much effort to figure out, may well result in the person concerned making mistakes and not being able to pass the buck to “Indian culture”. Stick with the familiar, even if it wreaks havoc. At least we’re maintaining Indian culture, and of course plenty of other people from our (older) generation are doing the same thing and behaving the same way, which supposedly dilutes the misguidedness and badmaashi of our actions”.
AC,
Great post (#116) as always. For the record, I just wanted to mention that you are one of my favourite commenters on SM; your posts are superbly written, very funny but sometimes also quite poignant. There’s a strong streak of Goodness Gracious Me-style familiarity too, from a “fellow desi” point of view; I’m sure many of us recognise the situations and the behavioural traits described, even though we may not necessarily have been in those situations ourselves.
Anyway, you’re a great guy and I’m sure I speak for many people here when I say that I always look forward to reading your posts 😉
jai: i just wanted to second your accolades for AC… his writing is fantastic…and brings home the garam garam dosa when need be…and yes, i’m also one that looks forward to his comments/posts because you know there is some happy masala in it…. ;)…
HMF @ 106 & technophobicgeek @ 108:
I linked to that PUA thingy as a joke, and not with the intention of outing dark secrets – besides being the perpetual geek, I first encountered that whole PUA scene via a book review a while back.
chants verses of the Bard
“All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts…
AWWW, YOU GUYS. if i didn’t have the complexion of a f*****g TOOTSIE ROLL, i’d show you how much that really means to mean and blush for ya’ll.
thanks
Sashi:
Thats ok, but just keep in mind there are a lot of AFCs and rAFCs out there, that are trying to sarge up some HBs, disarm the obstacles, in hopes of moving from minor IOIs to KCs and FCs. Clear?
AC,
As a Brit I have absolutely no idea what a tootsie-roll is, apart from an amusing hip-hop single a few years ago (with an equally entertaining video), but the best way you can thank us is to continue posting your usual entertaining messages here on SM and making us all smile 🙂
Bengali Market in New Delhi has the best Cham Cham you can imagine.
Desi weddings can be fun and there is so much yummy food to chose from. I never turn down an invite!
Technology has changed the way the world mates now. Even in a very small, conservative, even “orthodox”, if you will, location such as the one I am in, I often find young women in their teens and early twenties, what are referred to as “bheinjis”, seeking prospective mates online, even their net navigating skills are not so developed. I’m assuming they don’t want to be stuck with the local “boys” their parents would be arranging for them, or perhaps they are without an elder in the family who is taking on the responsiblity of finding them a groom, so they take control of the situation themselves.
I think the net affords many people an oppurtunity for romance which may have not been available before.
jai, here is a tootsie roll (good old american candy–trust me, the brits have it better with smarties, real cadbury and kitkat not to mention crunchie, flake, and the other hoopla.. oh how can i forget my wine gums? :)) and here is a old TV commerical.. how many licks does it take to get to the center of the tootsie roll? 🙂
Here’s a little something regarding arranged marriages; http://www.zackvision.com/weblog/2003/06/arranged-marriage.html
The argument that arranged marriages are more successful because they don’t end in divoce, well, most people in USA over the age of 70 are not divorced either, but yet they did not have an arranged marriage. It has to do with alot of other social factors, psychological factors, etc.
I don’t know how to properly insert links here so maybe a Mutineer could do that for me. Here’s another link regarding the union of a Nepali Hindu woman with an American gora (may or may not be Hindu), at a “traditional vedic ceremony” conducted by an American gora hindu panda (priest).
http://www.chakra.org/announcements/persSep02_06.html
Yeah, I just wanted to second the AC-accolades.
Awesome, awesome writing that puts the fo-shizzle into fob 🙂
Go AC, love your posts. And brown people can brush, we just turn kinda purple-y…strange but true.
Chickpea thanks for the Tootsie Roll links; I’d heard of them but didn’t really know what they were.
I won’t comment on your last sentence since I’m trying to keep it clean these days; trust me, it was an effort not to make any badmaash remarks about masala dosas and their “special spicy filling” on another recent thread too 😉
“I have merged into the indigo fabric of the exotically embroidered sari known as “India”. “
Ahhhhhhhh I love that line. One of my best.
It was inspired by all the mango, curry, henna-palmed, sari-bordered comments here on Sepia. Do you think I can peddle chick lit as easily those neo desi authoresses?
I tried to link my blog here with my name like y’all do but was unable. Advice please.
Thanks for the blog prop! I need some action over there.
“Do you think I can peddle chick lit as easily those neo desi authoresses?”
Probably not. Or maybe. There’s no accounting for taste.
Pardesi Gori,
The earlier comments were closed for a reason. Let’s let that discussion lie, instead of bringing it into other threads.
Duh! It’s obvious that this so-called “Pardesi Gori” is an attempt by the inventors of “lonelygirl15” to invade the brown market.
Can someone please explain to me, whenever somoene takes issue with an opposite sex member’s, why does the explanation always crumble to, “You two must want each other”?
Can someone please explain to me, whenever somoene takes issue with an opposite sex member’s comments, why does the explanation always crumble to, “You two must want each other”?
Ha! She’s really a Kiwi?
I feel compelled to intervene now– if I weren’t LIVING at my new job, I’d be calling plenty out as well. I’ve never read Bidi’s blog and for the first time in the existence of this, my sepia baby, I am NOT caught up on all comments, so I can’t vouch for everything he’s written, but I share his frustration.
As Kobayashi-san pointed out, Siddhartha confronted her before Gautham did. If SIDDHARTHA (who happens to be a teddy bear spun from sugar if you couldn’t tell) was vexed, that is very telling, not to mention anomalous. It’s getting pretty damn tiresome all right, but by “it” I don’t mean Bidior any other callers-out.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I must take a nap under my desk because beta, it loometh.
Yep, she’s from the land of that evil Sauron dude.
and dude, if you think Bidi and me are the same you’re way WAY off. WAAY off your rocker.
I think Pardesi Gori is all right. Its all been said before, and its lost its sting. Nobody cares anymore about arranged blah blah blah; its just an ice-breaker type comment. Its not that big a deal. And tabla dude, who knows maybe he had a crush on the wedding bahu. I think its A.G. at this point, we made it through the stereotype macacca adolescence where we didn’t like our desi-ness and people thought we smelled like curry. People like curry now. Yay! Top of the world ma!
What’s with the Kiwi bashing? I don’t get it but it’s not nice 😛 Boo
replace the word “indian” in the sentence above with any other ethnicity you can think of (including white) and you will have your answer. The answer to most such questions lie here.
mrrsmith,
i second mad lib. its a person thing. mad people aren’t able to commit and some of them make stupid choices until they mature. if i had a nickel for everytime someone did something romantically that made sense before they turned 30….can you spare some change?
mrssmith. Are you married?
“but i think alot of south asian men and women say they can do as they please but do they. point blank, i really don’t see alot of mixed indian/american couples around.”
Your story sucks, but maybe these people you are observing ARE doing as they please and prefer to be with other desi people. We’ve had long discussions about the topic (here on the Mutiny) and it seems like most desi’s (read of south asian ancestry) do want to sincerely be with people from the same cultural background for many complex reasons – not superficial. And if he really loved you, vice versa, he wouldn’t have done what he did. I’m not saying you deserved such ill treatment, but what you thought was a lasting love and friendship wasn’t… or he wouldn’t have done that. It sucks to feel “had” but based on what I know from your story, he really did take you for a ride.
Also, with regards to your comment: “point blank, i really don’t see alot of mixed indian/american couples around.”
Did ya know that you can be desi (S.A. ancestry) and born in the U.S.? Thus making a desi person (as you stated, asian) an American as well? American does not equal white. And non-white does not necessarily apply non-American. Therefore, you and your previous boyfriend (he was born in the U.S. right?) an American/American couple. Maybe what you REALLY meant was “desi/white” couple.
mad lib curious but what is your story? why did you go to the link you gave. let the girl be.
Mrssmith:
I have to admit, I’m a bit offended by your commentary, because on the one hand you claim offense at other people “simplifying a complex situation,” and yet you’re trying to generalize and explain (and also in some odd way, accuse) the horrors of your own breakup with…race.
I have some strong suspicions about how this relationship played out, because it’s a familiar story to me personally. It sounds like you’re still very upset with the situation, though…probably not the right time to talk about it for you, especially in this very public (and largely brown!) forum.