Technophobic Geek recently overheard the following at his middle eastern drum circle:
Instructor: So I was playing the tablas at this very fancy and HUGE Indian wedding last weekend. It was really quite fascinating. I haven’t seen a wedding this big in a while.
Other guy: How many people?
Instructor: At least 400, maybe 500 people. It was a really traditional wedding. Not only in terms of the ceremony, but it was also an (with dramatic pause) arranged wedding.
Everyone else: (awestruck) Wow!
Instructor: In fact, it was so arranged that the bride did not smile at all through the entire wedding, not one time.
Other guy: Was she at least over 18, I mean, she wasn’t like 12 or something, right?
Instructor: No, not at all, she was in her early 20s, at least that’s what they said.
(Everyone heaves a palpable sigh of relief). (link)
Our technophobic friend says he was rendered speechless by this (“I had no idea where to even start bridging this cultural chasm…”), so let’s help him out. The first thing he could say is that it’s striking that arranged marriage is still such a stigmatized practice in the U.S. — especially amongst “laid back dudes” in one’s social circle. Come on guys, get over it: learn something about the culture of the people who invented the tabla you’ve learned to play.
Second, it’s not necessarily the case that it was an actual, no-prior-meeting, arranged marriage (actually pretty rare these days in the diaspora). Any help from websites and/or parents is often construed as “arranging” by people outside the loop, when in fact “assisting” might be a more accurate way to describe it.
As for why the bride wasn’t smiling: uncomfortable outfit? Awkward hair? Cultural expectation?
This is not surprising. I’m sure this is how most Americans view Indians and arranged marriage. They’re just usually smart enough not to talk about it in front of other Indians.
On a related note, my parents are currently seeking a fair, tall, thin girl that makes excellent masala dosa and is healthy enough to crank out sons at rapid fire. Those interested, please send picture, biodata, income information, caste certificate, college diploma, board exam results, and at least three independent references.
It’s just protocol isnt it? The lady is supposed to look sad, and the man must look mature and responsible and stoical, all the while bursting with excitement inside at the hours count down to the peace of the hotel room where they can banish the masses of aunty-dom and uncle-dom and ravish one another.
At least that is what my friend-girls tell me.
On the other hand, it could be just to confuse and trick white dudes in the vicinity just for the hell of it.
Hmmm. Something that I noticed in my first couple of years in Canada was that at most parties/dinners, I would get the “are you going to have an arranged marriage” question at least once in the course of the evening – still happens sometimes.
argh. not surprising, since it was overheard at a drum circle. i should note that i am a percussionist, and specialize in the drums of the middle east (at least as much as i can i guess) and i stay the hell away from those drum circles. THE HELL AWAY…….i am trying to change my perspective (macaca!) but it still makes me mad as all get out.
most of the weddings I have been to both the bride and groom look bored, not sad…
I think ceremonies should be shorter (cliff notes versions?) and maybe explained better to non-sanskrit speakers 😛
grinning my other half refrains from having the obligatory wedding pic on his desk at work because I look like I’m ready to kill someone in all of our wedding pics. The reason? No, not the outfit (though all told, the sari & acoutrements added a good 20 pounds to my frame), not the hair (the stylist did a damn good job making sure it felt right, even with the tikli), and definitely not cultural expectation (other half’s desi by association, not birth or upbringing.)
No, it was because the damn photographers were more like paparazzi, and would stop the ceremony just to get a cool, posed shot. I finally explained to them that they were fired if I didn’t get candid action shots.
One of the things that strikes me, and I recognize I’m making a huge assumption about the Intstructor’s political beliefs based on his activities and manners of speaking, but it just continues to point out that in America, those who consider themselves liberal are not necessarily any more enlightened about other cultures. It reminds me of the infamous Hillary and Biden comments.
The 12-year-old comment is &($#@ up though.
To most Americans, all other cultures are mysteries, even European countries, all the more so for Asian countries. The US is a mass culture exporter, much to the detriment of us ghora understanding other people.
Thank you Amardeep! It’s frustrating when you have to repeatedly explain to people the difference between “arranged” and “forced”. Then again, to be fair, a lot of people in India believe all “love marriages” end in divorce.
As far as the age of the bride is concerned, of course this is limited to my personal observation, women both in America and India seem to get married around the same age while men seem to get married earlier around here. I’ve seen data for age at first marriage in the US, does anyone have recent data on the same in India?
I’ll say it again, we need to start incorporating the term “self-arranged”… 😉
As to the not smiling part, if you’re wearing a 10 lb. dupatta with gold-wire embroidery that scratches like a briar bush if you so much as blink… well you’d not be smiling either.
An arranged marriage may not be forced but it’s no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.
there was a time i would get all defensive – “actually… things are changing. no… of course not”. like tpgeek above – i keep shut… unless they tread on me. then the right attitude to take is that the guy insulted my parents… really… it’s a powerful mental picture to get medieval.
“oh, so you are going back to india to find a girl” – from obnoxious know-it-all in leisure suit.
“so, do your parents know about this?” – from ‘best friend’ of girl i was dating.
“are your parents planning to live with you later?” – from another ‘best friend’ of girl.
“are you a canadian citizen” -from a potential ‘get-into-relationship’ person.
“you’re going to find a girl in india right. I hear indian girls are all virgins before they’re married”, etc. etc.
and all this is based on something theyve read in a book, or seen on tv, or for heck;s sake heard as a rant from some indic person.
listen!! if you have nothing positive to say about indic folk, keep your jalebihole SHUT and help me procreate. this isnt polite chitchat it’s intended to put you on the backfoot and have you disavow your indicity. there is no need to defend or illuminate – tpgeek had the right idea.
Hairy D, if you’re offended by a comment, it’s better to say something than not. This festering medieval hatred approach is not really healthy.
BTW When you say “help me procreate,” what are you talking about?
“An arranged marriage may not be forced but it’s no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.”
Exactly. It is my opinion that this practice should be dismantled, anyone who practices or pushes it on their children, in my most humble, quasi-informed, data-less, unscholastic view, should be held accountable for a crime against humanity.
Love it. Or we can go with “divinely arranged” as Mitali Perkins recently celebrated on her blog.
Great post. Two questions I usually get related to Indian weddings are:
a) Are they all arranged? b) Are they like the one in Monsoon Wedding?
Quite often I get the impression that people do not realize I might be offended, or do realize but have some morbid fascination with Indian weddings and just can’t control themselves.
Guru… it doesnt fester… but it annoys… i really regard this as rude behavior on someone else’s part. it is like asking someone in the bus which way they dress. how on earth can one respond to this but ignore it.
the keep quiet was directed at all the SM commenters who’ve lamented their personal relationships or experiences with indians on this forum. in statistical terms, these indic representatives are probably the “focus group” to learn about all things indian for their respective communities . recall all the times you’ve heard, “i’ve heard from my eendian friend joti that you guys etc.”.
So I am requesting SM community’s help in projecting a postivie image of where we come from – so for please please please.. i do not need to go on the defensive on a date. it’s not a good conversation piece.
“Look sad! Indian bride never smiles! You’ll ruin the bloody video!” – Bend it Like Beckham
What the heck do these people think Match.com is? (No no, I mean other than dreadful.) Or setups by their friends and relatives? A series of random collisions?
My response to such questions is – “Let me educate you a little bit..it’ll come in handy”.
‘did your parents promise you to someone when you were 5 years old’ is something i get all the time. maybe it’s a southern thing. who the hell knows.
fantastic. super duper. but of course.
i was betrothed to someone in a mubmai playground as we were both playing in a sandbox with our empty limca bottles. our parents discussed our futures while eating pani puri from the local stand. they were debating the dowry. should it be 55 cows or 550 kilos of basmati rice? isn’t it obvious?
p.s. but of course, i saw in hindsight it was pretty barbaric and took it on my own accord by having my own marriage pact ;).
O BTW – there’s a whole bunch of smileys in my post #16 above…
An arranged marriage may not be forced but it’s no less ghastly. The majority of such marriages are between two largely incompatible people.”
Exactly. It is my opinion that this practice should be dismantled, anyone who practices or pushes it on their children, in my most humble, quasi-informed, data-less, unscholastic view, should be held accountable for a crime against humanity
Well a lot of arranged marriages in India are between two largely incompatible people and they don’t necessarily find it out a few days after the wedding. Sometimes it takes longer. But that’s not the problem. The big problem is that such marriages are usually closed-end with no getting-out option. Divorce is unheard or unthought of. Your own well wishers won’t let you. Usually it’s the girl who is miserable but puts up with her lot. That’s where the difference with the West or big cities in India .
I think this is a gross generalization, and I think the latter part could also be applied to many, many “love” marriages that I have witnessed. My parents had an arranged marriage (neither was forced or coerced), and they are a lot happier than most of the people in the town I grew up in. In fact, all most all my friends’ parents are now divorced. I’m not saying this is a rule, but I think there are more factors at play than if someone met in a bar or through their parents
I think I gone from “Actually, its not exactly so…” to “Teri macaca!..” in 10 yrs time. And all those dissing arranged marriages, hope that’s in jest ‘cos in this big free-will/willy culture of the us of a, success rate is consistent with a flip of the coin, so how can arranges get any worse? Either way its see-if-the-cowpat-sticks.
And damn this – the bride didn’t smile hence they all must gangre her – attitude. Whether she smiles or not is none of your damn-f***g biz. Donn ‘the mask’ and smile like a hyena at your wedding but don’t push your cutural view on someone else. I also don’t like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn’t mean I’m prude. I can appreciate that that’s what you want to do.
Other than that, in the unimitable words of Ari- let’s hug it out, b***h!!
I think this is a gross generalization, and I think the latter part could also be applied to many, many “love” marriages that I have witnessed.
Gautam, I have to respectfully disagree. Most arranged marriages do not end in divorce because there is no exit option in Indian society. There is no such “safety net” in “love marriages” and that’s why you see a lot more people from your town divorced. You should be celebrating their right to get out of unhappy and often abusive relationships not berating “love marriage” as being on par with arranged marriage.
M&A deals have a “due diligence” phase. Car dealers have a “test drive” and yet desis even today enter into the most important thing in their life blindfolded. Don’t do your due diligence or test drive well you have a lemon on your hands!
The 50% statistic is an aggregate figure. The “success” rate actually climbs when taking certain things into account (education level, age when getting married, income, etc..) link.
And I place “success” in quotes because it’s not a binary decision – that is, lack of divorce does not necessarily imply success (as is the case in many Indian marriages, where divorce did not occur, but it can’t be considered a success by any stretch of the word. [at any level of “arrangement”, assisting etc.])
“M&A deals have a “due diligence” phase. Car dealers have a “test drive” and yet desis even today enter into the most important thing in their life blindfolded. Don’t do your due diligence or test drive well you have a lemon on your hands!”
I’m in total agreement here. Indian culture got many things right, but this is something for the most part, they got dead wrong To put it in the most scientific of terms, to not acquire necessary social dynamics training before undertaking the most crucial and pivotal social decision a person can make, it’s much like walking into a rock climbing shop, buying a harness, rope and clips for the first time, then marching over to mount everest and start climbing.
HMF:
I don’t know how many times I heard this said in India, that you marry a family, and not a person. I might be willing to argue that, in conventioal Indian thinking, which is fortunately changing, the family, not the person, is the smallest unit of measure. Noice how its the ‘khandaan’s izzat’, and not an aadmi’s/aurat’s izzat, that is always at stake in an Indian movie.
The interesting thing about this post–and this is a common SM theme–is the notion that cultural ignorance is not only offensive, but perhaps a sign of latent racism. Mutineers often take umbrage when Americans are so unfamiliar with our culture that they must resort to stereotype, as if they should be familiar and as if we do not do the same with foreign cultures. Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.
Interestingly, Amardeep threads close to stereotyping with this:
OK, it’s a positive stereotype but a stereotype nonetheless, that–like the notion that all Desis are well educated overachievers– “laid back” artistic types are culturally sensitive, nonjudgmental, and open to new ideas. C’mon Amardeep, you are–like those who use the “model minority myth”–oppressing those artists who cannot live up to these standards.
Never said that. see my comment above and below.
I knew this argument would be made. HMF, why wouldn’t aggregate figure suffice? It represents hundreds of million of humanity. Any success rate climbers would apply similarly anywhere, if not, a bunch of factors put together for different cultural situations would again aggregate everything out.
I didn’t argue that arranged marriages are necessarily better. Only that the most free-will of decisions still only has a near 50% chance, so why would counting only happy arranged marriages would find a number inferior to 50%? If you’re implying that odds for arranged marriages to be happy are worse than those for self-arranged, that would mean that when more people than the principals get involved in helping them out, they’re likely to make the principals miserable.
How can that be true? If random chance is 50%, then concerted effort would be more likely to produce better than those odds. If concerted effort by 2 people still results in close to 50%, then concerted effort by more than 2 people for them should result in better odds, not worse.
DesiDawg @ 26 & HMF @ 28:
No amount of “due diligence” or a number of “test drives” are good enough guarantors that it will all work out; in other words these may be “necessary” conditions for some folks to “jump da broom” but not these are not “sufficient” conditions to ensure that the eventual marriage is a lemon or not. Besides, if you look at the kind of hard nosed scrutiny and data collection (too business like/ CIA like even) that folks are subjected to (at least in India; once my parents were out of town, and I had to field a telephone call from a distant uncle of a potential groom who wanted to talk to my father about the general behaviour and demeanor of a girl who lived down the street) under arranged marriages.
All this, discounting the issue of how initial conditions (“due diligence” and “test drives”) are really not all that accurate in predicting what will be the final state which the complex system (marriage) will attain. Finally, there was this 2002 study put out by the National Marriage Project @ Rutgers Univ, which indicated (I haven’t re-read it since then) that “a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce”. Also here is a well written (& recent) blog post on this subject.
Just some more food for thought.
Just a quick glimpse of some of the comments made on this site about white southerners should tell us differently.
You hit it on the nail! Here’s another; I also don’t like to parade nude in front of strangers in a shower but that doesn’t mean I’m prude. I can appreciate that that’s what you want to do.
she wasn’t smiling because those ignorant white muvs couldn’t play the tabla for shit! i was at that wedding and the guy’s dagga sounded like me tapping on the top of a poland spring bottle. boo hiss boo.
Manju, I agree. Particularly in regard to southern ‘rednecks’, a lot of mutineers don’t seem to have any problem making gross assumptions.
I’m genuinely unsure why everyone gets riled at the arranged marriage questions, when the vast majority of INDIAN, much less American!, popular media fetishizes this institution and often emphasizes its most negative manifestations. (Just consider the overstated theme of forced marriage in Bollywood films, for instance.) Monsoon Wedding and Bend it Like Beckham certainly reinforced some of the misperceptions about arranged marriages. Why would you expect most non-desis to realize these films should be taken with a grain of salt? Certainly Hollywood seems to be taken as an accurate representation of American culture by many people in India.
In short — expecting everyone to have done the research themselves ignores the fact that there are tons of different cultural, religious, and ethnic groups in the USA, and time is short. Do your friends and importunate questioners a favor and enlighten them yourselves by taking and replying to their question the way it was probably meant — curiously, and harmlessly. I just don’t think this is a credible enough issue to resent people for.
uh… i dont think educating someone while on a date is the right icebreaker. it goes into the next stereotype of indian males “clean my office, indian voman! evil laughter … which isnt untrue… i am as assertive as the next guy – but i’d like the other to be confidently counter-assertive rather than lay a guilt-trip on me – which is just downright underhanded.
sigh… i wish GGM would come to the US … life would be so much simpler… :-/
Nice post Simran.
Insted of getting frustated, one should try to “educate” others about their culture and traditions.
“HMF, why wouldn’t aggregate figure suffice? “
Because if we restrict the discussion to Indians/desis growing up in the US, the 50% figure gets tossed out the window. And the link I quoted also went on to state the 50% rate is more indicative of past performance, rather than future behavior.
“I didn’t argue that arranged marriages are necessarily better. “
Thats the implication.
“Only that the most free-will of decisions still only has a near 50% chance, so why would counting only happy arranged marriages would find a number inferior to 50%?”
I’m not only counting “happy” marriages and then turning around and stating “look they’re happy!” I’m taking into account factors like waiting until your over 25, waiting until your financially stable, waiting until you’re at peace with your chosen life direction, and many other factors.
“If random chance is 50%, then concerted effort would be more likely to produce better than those odds. If concerted effort by 2 people still results in close to 50%, then concerted effort by more than 2 people for them should result in better odds, not worse.”
Ever heard the saying “too many cooks spoil the broth?” Emotional issues, and person to person relations are non-linear processes. You most certainly cannot say 2 people give X amount of help to creating a lasting decision, therefore 20 people will contibute 10X, or something like that. Even making a general statement like “better odds, not worse” is not completely obvious and unproblematic.
One must really delve into the nature of why families get so involved, I argue it’s not for the ultimate benefit of the individuals at hand, rather for the benefit of society at large. and that’s where your linear progression argument breaks down. Now, this relates to sakshi’s comment about marrying a family and not a person – implicit in this is, the individuals needs and desires take a back seat to towing the line.
Sashi: “No amount of “due diligence” or a number of “test drives” are good enough guarantors that it will all work out”
“a careful review of the available social science evidence suggests that living together is not a good way to prepare for marriage or to avoid divorce””
But people test drive cars and practice due diligence anyway, right? Pre-marital co-habitation is one method, not the only one. I believe that social dynamics, relationship maintenance, connecting emotionally, or as the ubiquitous female buzzword “chemistry” are skills like any other – playing piano, riding bikes, solving differential equations – and can only develop with practice. To those that recoil and say “No way! You make it too serious and scientific bla bla” I call them naturals, they naturally develop those skills, and rarely have to think of their mechanics. But make no mistake.. they ARE skills.
I see no logic in a society that decries people developing these skills, then expects them to be masters at the drop of a hat… Nearly every “aunty” and “uncle” that I’ve spoken too (those open minded enough to even have this discussion) agrees with me.
I’m not sure I find such comments offensive, amusing maybe, but not offensive. Esp. since much of what is true for us today w/r/t marriage, dating etc. has only been true for the past generation or so. Yeah, WE know about it b/c we have direct exposure to the change in ideas and practices that has happened so quickly (just 1 generation in my family), but why would others know that at all unless they personally knew brown folks who defied the traditional image (and most Americans, be they white, black, etc. do not personally know brown people at all given we are still a small fraction of the overall pop.)?
I think the reactions here could afford to be a bit less knee-jerk and maybe a bit more understanding of the other in this case.
lol maisnon — you beat me to it!
I also am not claiming that arranged marriage is perfect, but as Amardeep pointed out, forced marriage is extremely rare among second generation Indians and even urban middle and upperclasses in India now. There’s stigma attached to the idea of meeting someone through family that is not always jsutified. I oppose forcing someone to marry as much as anyone else; but I also think it is disrespectful to my parents and the thousands of other happily married arranged couples to say that they were somehow “wrong” to choose the path they did. As for the socio-economic argument, it’s actually only true to a point. Statistics show that those with the highest levels of education and income tend to get divorced at high rates as well. I don’t like how peopel view this issue as some sort of dichotomy, where Indians have it wrong and the West has it right. There is obviously things wrong with both systems; the fact that marriage in America has become basically a temporary arrangement is a good indication of this.
I attended some 4-5 wedding during my last trip to India. A fairly new concept that I saw in all these marraiges was that of “DJ” and “dance floor”. Friend and family made sure that the bride and groom did shake their booty on the dance floor. btw..all the brides that I saw were “happy” and smiling.
NEVER…
Sound the gongs. Rouse the hounds. Take to the streets.
IT’s
clobberMUTINY-time!!!You’ve hit the nail on the head. Also add the ability to make decisions.
However, these skills are not taught in systematic way in our childhood, in schools, or in families. Rather, the first 10–20 years of our adulthood is spent in learning these skills. In other words, we learn these skills after our careers begin or after our marriages begin. It is nothing to do with arranged marriages or love marriages.
Exactly, my friend. Exactly.
HMF @ 38: I agree with the point you make regarding development of “relational” skills. That said, I think these are skills (I am thinking of kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc more than the skills required to “romance” effectively – this is not to implay that “romance” skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking) that someone accquires (or learns over) a lifetime from his/her entire web of relationships (family, friendships, work relationship etc), and not necessarily from “test drives” alone. Again, as you said, not every one has to “test drive” in order to learn the “soft” skills required for great marriages – they can acqure from other sources as well.
Absolutely correct except for the very last part. The problem is that many people are not given a “choice” in exactly which marriage path to take — it’s either the arranged-marriage route or nothing. This point is particularly relevant with regards to what happened amongst the parents’ generation, but it still frequently applies to many 2nd-Gen South Asians in the West too.
Less so these days, at least here in the UK (amongst Hindus & Sikhs if not necessarily Muslims), but it’s still an issue in some quarters.
I fail to understand why anyone would expect people who do not come from cultures where arranged marriages are the norm, to understand the dynamics of the different kinds of arranged marriages.
It’s like me going to a small village in Rajasthan and expecting the people to understand the complexities of the American dating scene. It is something unknown to them and hence a curiosity in which they will have many misunderstandings.
How many times have I been asked, no, told – “so, there is free sex in America.” I’m like um, no, nothing is free in American except for internet use in libraries.
Come on!
No one will understand these things unless they are exposed to them.
Why should someone who is not exposed to something be expected to “get it”.
It is up to us, the people who HAVE BEEN EXPOSED, to explain the hows, whys, whats, when and wheres of such things.
There are reasons for everything a human being does. Often times the very same reason is why two different human beings do OPPOSITE things.
Example;
I’m asked several times why in America grown children “abandon” their parents to live on their own. I explain that while in India a young man’s responsibility is proven by staying on in the house of his parents and taking over their previous responsibilities of running the household, in America, a young man or woman’s responsibility is proven by moving out and getting a job and place of their own. The reason is more or less the same – proving adult responsibility, but the outcome or action takes a different form.
The form is different because the cultures and environments are different.
It is not true that the average age of Americans and Indians entering into marriage is about the same. For educated people – yes. But that is not taking into account India’s millions of rural, less educated folk – a group that seems to be often overlooked in comments on internet forums. Those people are still marrying in their teens and younger, by the millions.
Ask any of the domestic workers in the homes you stay in when visiting India at what age were they married. My experience in asking this question is all under the age of 18.
Very young marriages were also common in USA not too long ago. My grandmother was married at 14 and my grandfather was in his twenties. Nowadays this would be considered a crime and my grandfather locked up.
48, spoken like a true Sage. Great comment.
“HMF @ 38: I agree with the point you make regarding development of “relational” skills. That said, I think these are skills (I am thinking of kindness, empathy, emotional resilience etc more than the skills required to “romance” effectively – this is not to implay that “romance” skills are not required but that they are minor, atleast in my system of thinking) that someone accquires (or learns over) a lifetime from his/her entire web of relationships (family, friendships, work relationship etc), and not necessarily from “test drives” alone. Again, as you said, not every one has to “test drive” in order to learn the “soft” skills required for great marriages – they can acqure from other sources as well.”
You must be a woman (if you’re not, don’t take offense, a lot of women think this way) I think kindness, empathy, are natural qualities, no one is born an adulterer or mass murderer or anything else for that matter. It’s a matter of uncovering them. Romance skills (actually I don’t like that term, I prefer social dynamics) can only be acquired from test drives. Just “being yourself” is worthless as a pile of fly ridden dog shit. And I also make the point that India has an in-built systematic tendancy to supress said development, in so far as I know.