I am often surprised at the propensity of hyphenated identity discussions that we have here at Sepia Mutiny. If you read this blog long enough, it often feels like the topics in the comments are repetitive, and in some ways it does feel like beating a dead horse. But on the flip side, the fact that we still have so many people participating in such a heated discussion on race, being South Asian, and manuevering through the complexities of this uniquely diasporic culture simply proves the need to have this safe space online to have these relatively anonymous discussions that we wouldn’t be able to have elsewhere.
In yesterday’s Washington Post, John Thatamanil talked about the juxtaposition of being South Asian American in this country, and the lack of ever fully being American.
The Allen incident offers evidence that America is not now or likely to ever be a color-blind country. How are South Asians to live with this truth? Resignation is not the answer. Vigorous political participation is. My youthful intuition that what makes me as American as any Mayflower descendant is citizenship — not race or ethnicity — was only partly on the mark. The piece of paper that validates our identities as American citizens can do only so much if we do little to struggle for recognition.There is also a second lesson to be learned from this incident. South Asian political engagement cannot be driven solely by the private interests of a single racial or ethnic group. America’s obsession with color has a long history that South Asians forget at their peril. Indian Americans and other affluent immigrant groups would do well to remember the civil rights struggles of African Americans and others without whom a racially inclusive American nation would have been impossible. The Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965, which opened the door to people from the Eastern Hemisphere, must be recognized as the fruit of a larger struggle to expand the meaning of the term “American,” a struggle fought on our behalf before our arrival. [link]
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p>The idea of what it means to be an American, through a South Asian lens is something I probably spend way too much time thinking about- if only because I am constantly challenging myself on the importance of voting and what exactly voting means in the scope of creating a South Asian American political voice. Are citizenship and voting merely parts of a false border created to divide our community? Are we aspiring to honorary whiteness as Thatamanil suggests? Is it true that we’ll never truly be American?
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Personally, I wouldn’t be able to do the work that I do to make our community politically engaged if I believed that it is impossible to overcome these barriers. In my world, I’ve redefined what it means to be American to include my hyphenated experience and I see the work that I do as to define my ‘American experience’ as on par with the civil rights that we as human beings deserve. For myself, I’ve redefined what it means to be a ‘patriot’, a ‘revolutionary’, and ‘political’ to include my experiences as a South Asian American and how I perceive that identity needs to be treated. With Macaca-gate still thriving and Traveling While Asian causing more problems then ever, I challenge everyone now to make some redefinitions of their own. And of course, I challenge everyone to go against the status quo and to also go register to vote 
.
Say Branch Dravidian, if you are half-tamil how could you be pink-skinned?!
“Pink” may be a bit of an exagerration… but I’m guessing the likes of Fei see anything lighter than a Snickers Bar as some kind of albino monster. I’m certainly not ruddy pink like many English, Irish or Scandinavian types. My skin tone is what lots of white folks might refer to as “olive” or “light olive.” My hair is brown and my eyes are greenish/hazel. My coloring can actually vary quite a bit according to the season. I can get remarkably dark if I make a serious effort to tan. When winter pale I can be pretty ghostly white. Anyways… most strangers assume I’m white. Some suspect that I might be some sort of of Mediterranean/Latino type. Some of the more clueless ones ask me if my last name is Spanish or Italian…
BD,
don’t feed the troll :=)
Olive is a long ways from pink. I doubt that a half-tamil would look very alien to indians. If anything you could look forward to a future as a model or actor in India.
you are forgetting—desis come in all shapes and sizes and colors. i am not surprised at branch dravidian’s assesment of him/herself. if you lived in the south you will know you can always replace that nice piece of suit you have (except green) by skinning somebody. btw i didn’t forget blue–it is taken care of now that they are building so many iskon temples…
don’t feed the troll!!!! that’s shazam.
razib: when do you sleep? and shazam???
razib: when do you sleep? and shazam???
unfortunately i am not sleeping much recently. that’s what happens when you have contract work on top of the 9-5. but i make up for it on weekends :=) shazam is just a troll who has shown up on multiple threads. the questions might seem innocent, but it is always about his agenda. see here.
Bytewords,
Razib is right. I’m pretty sure “Macaca” is Shazam too — it’s quite clear from his language and style of speaking.
There seem to be several trolls currently on SM playing their little mind-games with randomly-selected targets and poisoning the blog with their presence, as indicated by that link Razib has supplied. Responding to their baits further fuels their attention-seeking sociopathic behaviour. Why give them further excuses to push their own paranoid, persecution-complex-driven bigoted agendas ?
Ignore them.
One hopeful trend, hopeful for non-whites and terrifying to many whites, is the steady rise in the proportion of non-european ethnicities in America:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/education/27education.html?ex=1314331200&en=73a8e3fd6c804266&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
” Three decades ago, in 1973, 78 percent of the students attending the nationÂ’s public schools were white and 22 percent were minorities, a category including blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Pacific Islanders, and “other,” according to Education Department statistics. In 2004, the last year for which numbers were available, 57 percent of all public school students were white, while 43 percent were minorities.
The department does not project student racial and ethnic data for elementary and secondary schools, said Val Plisko, an associate commissioner at the National Center for Education Statistics.
But if trends continue as they have for 30 years, minority students appear likely to outnumber white students within a decade or so. In six states — California, Hawaii, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico and Texas — they already do.”
Thanks! 😀
One observation I have regarding the Indians here is that they make little or no effort to integrate within society. In fact, most tend to only socialise with other Indians, and most also send their children to International schools, the result being that these kids learn very little Dutch and are not assimilated in any way, shape or form in Dutch society.(Though there is a lot of variation between them – I know some who went all their lives to Dutch schools but feel really Indian – and I know a couple who have only been in international schools but they are very assimilated and even feel more Dutch than Indian.) Some of the folks make continuous disparaging remarks about this country, which frankly irritates me – if they are so displeased they should leave.
We’ve just had our own mini-monsoon here, so I feel right at home 😉
True dat. I was in India only this summer but even if I move back there I shan’t feel assimilated. Foreign-born desis are still exotified in India. Besides, my norms clash with those which are predominant in Indian society. :/ If one believes in, uh, test drives, and things like that, it’s hard to feel at home in Indian society.
Don’t feed the trolls. And to the trolls: Personal attacks are not acceptable. If you have an obsession/problem with the views of someone else here to the extent of poisoning the conversation here with your vendetta, go to his blog and take it up with him there. Or have the courage to reveal yourself with a real name and email and you can have the conversation offline. To come here and hijack the conversation is disrespectful of the hosts and the rest of the community, and it does a deep disservice to the analytic points you may be trying to make. Thank you.
This attitude might be a bit more prevalent in Bengal, because the people there are very insular even in an Indian context. I visited a Kolkata museum, and they were playing some of the exhibit audio in Bengali – even when no one around there could speak or understand it. (Most of us there were from Bangalore) We asked for just the English but it took us some prodding, they did it reluctantly. I’d guess if your bf was chinese or black he’d meet the same response.
The real test to see if anti-white racism exists it to poll those whites who’ve made India their home, and ask them if they feel heavily disenfranchised – in small ways, like, when they walk in stores, are they followed? do people assume they can only play sports and rap? or in big ways, are they assumed to be criminal? are they curbed into living into certain neighborhoods – that are significantly less maintained, are they forced to attend shitty schools…etc etc..
Yep. I’m part of an international relgious group wherein the members frequently make trips to India for Yatras. Many of us also have made it more or less our first home. This is something discussed amongst us alot. Now, you do have international religious groups there that don’t mix with the Indian locals as much as we do. They have large insular centers and communities which they have made into a type of “mini-west” in the middle of India, complete with air-conditioned restaurants serving pizza and lasagne. Those types rarely make an effort to learn the local languages and rarely mix closely or form tight bonds with any Indians. They leave their compounds only when neccessary.
But that’s not my case or the case with the people in my group. We are in the thick of it. And yes, especially for women it seems, face a hellavu lot of mean spirited racism/culturalism/sexism/xenophobia. Some emotional break-downs have resulted due to it.
I might not exotify you, but i might objectify you? is that acceptable?
The real test to see if anti-white racism exists it to poll those whites who’ve made India their home, and ask them if they feel heavily disenfranchised – in small ways, like, when they walk in stores, are they followed?
My uncle told me there are 100,000 Americans settled in India (he used to be employed with the US Embassy which did a private survey) lots of retirees who like the fact that their state department pensions buys cheap servants and drivers; hindu converts in ashrams or affiliated with groups like ISKCON; Christian missionaries; a few affiliated with multinationals; some entrepreneurs; ngo wallahs.
Ajit in post # 186 said, “I used to feel when I was growing up but dropping out of one society to find refuge in one where there are people who look like them is not as far fetched as it sounds. It is unlikely in the US but some other western countries can push someone to do this I believe. At this point I should state that I was born and raised in the UK, not the US and I am currently living in Canada. I was frustrated because I could not understand why people treated me differently when I so stongly felt that THIS was my country”
There are alternatives to suffering, and he found one. I don’t think it’s such a far fetched idea. The world is very big, there are alot of places to go. America isn’t the only country in the world and perhaps too much importance is given to it by those who seem to hate it so much but are determined to stay – whether citizens or not, born here or not.
I realize some of my posts appear to be hating on India. Actually, I love that place. I guess a love/hate relationship would be what you call it. I don’t think there is any such thing as “just liking” India. Most non-Indians who’ve been there that I know either love it or hate it or both. It’s a place that can bring out the most exhilerating emotions from the heart, as well as the most sorrowful. A place where one can have the most sweet experiences, as well as the most sour. Is that exotifying? Meethi Kaatha?
America isn’t the only country in the world and perhaps too much importance is given to it by those who seem to hate it so much but are determined to stay – whether citizens or not, born here or not.
Our parents came here for the money, because India did not offer them any opportunities. They knew very well that this country was founded on the graves of Native Americans, through broken treaties, treachery, and “Manifest Destiny,” and is considered by many to be morally illegitimate; they also knew that in large parts of the country, blacks were treated no differently than the lowly pariahs in Tamil villages. my father saw separate black and white water fountains when he was a student in the South. But that was their choice. I dare say the vast majority of 2gens–everal who have personally been victimized by white racism–know this history too, but they also know of America’s positive contributions to the world and the way its helped many -but not all- immigrants attain a better standard of living, and for better of worse this will always be home. like you they love and hate, and most will never leave, nor should they be told to.
In addition, I’d like to addresses Siddharth’s “oh please” reaction to my assertion of “oppression” in India. Siddharth, you don’t know who I am or what I’ve experienced. I have though alleged to the fact that I have been a victim of frightening sexual harrassment several times, and ignoring that, your reaction is “oh please” to any vocal reaction I might exhibit towards oppression. Please read Anna’s post regarding her rape experience. It is NOT ok to “oh please” women’s experiences of oppression in any form.
Also, it’s almost as if you and Taz feel that my opinions on the matters I’ve expressed here are invalid solely because I’m white. That is dehumanizing. Shall I put an X behind my name now?
I guess this is what those frustrated white males are talking about when they say they have now become the most discriminated against (psychologically oppressed) figures in the world today. Not saying I agree with that! I would have no way to gauge it. But my experience on here as to what you two constantly refer to as a “white” person, does make me entertain the thought, “maybe these guys have a point somewhere”, but in relation to white women instead.
It’s something I’ve experienced in real life (offline) too. It’s as if I am made to feel that no matter my history or experience, I am just a spoiled, priveleged white #$@$% who has no right to even voice her opinion, or for that matter, speak out about injustices done to her, because well, those injustices cannot equal the injustices down to non-whites throughout the world and hence, no matter how heinous the crime perpetrated against me, it just doesn’t matter because I represent the OTHER – Great White Privelged Oppressor.
Again I will say – it’s dehumanizing.
Desitude – I hear ya. My suggestion was for people who feel it unbearable. There are alternatives, as Ajit pointed out.
Gautham – I refer you to my comment over in the other thread where I asserted that people like me have not set out to make others happy or unhappy with what we do, say or are. We just are.
If you are happy with my comments. So be it. If not. Tatasthu.
Gautham. You. Are. Right. No. She. Did. Not.
Don’t know what site you are referring to. I have just heard and seen referenced that there is an attitude amongst some white males that they feel they are the new “nig…..”.
There is also an uprising of Indian males against so called Indian female oppression in India, with websites dedicated to the cause. They are rallying against so called “female superiority and privlege” that they feel Indian society gives women. It’s tied into dowry and how supposedly alot of Indian women are using the anti-dowry laws against their husbands to get them and their in-laws thrown in jail on false pretences. But the man go on and on and on about all the Indian lawbooks favor women and women are pleased and pampered their whole lives while men slave away for them.
It’s kind of like the Indian version of the male backlash against feminism in America that sometimes one may come across.
Pardesi, not sure why I bother, but since you single me out, here goes. I have not at any point suggested that your experiences of sexual harrassment in India or anywhere else didn’t happen, or weren’t hurtful, or weren’t wrong. Clear on that? I deplore sexual harrassment in any and every context.
Now, moving on: My reaction is not to your stories, but to your use of the word OPPRESSION. You need to do some serious thinking about what constitutes oppression in this world. For someone from the richest, most powerful and more culturally dominant country in the world, and equipped with white skin on top of it, to describe her situation in a less-developed, less-powerful, and formerly — recently, in fact — colonized country as OPPRESSION is at best ignorant and at worst vulgar and colonial. No, this does not mean that your experiences were false or imagined. If you were abused, aggressed, harrassed, taunted, or physically harmed because of your sex — or indeed, for any reason, I am sorry and I feel compassion. But that doesn’t make you OPPRESSED. Targeted, maybe; singled out; victimized; many possible words can apply here. But OPPRESSION is a collective experience, not an individual one, and for you, in your white, [post-]colonial position of inherent privilege to characterize yourself as OPPRESSED is perhaps the most extreme example of chutzpah we’ve seen here on these boards.
Oh no you didn’t, PG. You did not just go there. You just equated my critical response to your contributions here with condoning or ignoring rape. You need to walk that statement back real quick, because you have no idea where you are going. You have no idea who you are talking to — not just me, but your fellow readers. We are a LOT more advanced analytically, psychologically, and I dare say spiritually than you. For you to lob Anna’s post at me — to instrumentalize Anna’s experience — as if it supported your points here is primitive and contemptible.
Go in peace, Pardesi Gori. Oh, and don’t forget to do what makes you happy. That’s the bottom line, isn’t it.
Oh, one other thing. Stop picking on Taz as well. Taz, Shruti and I have all offered quite sincerely to share some reading with you. We’re all willing to talk. We all have public identities and can all be reached by email. You have chosen to remain anonymous, so the first move will have to be yours.
Okay, maybe it’s time to play Devil’s Advocate a little.
Pardesi Gori: Your interest in Indian culture is interesting to read and I hope you have been pursuing this for the “right” reasons; non-Indians do sometimes “exotify” various aspects of Indian culture and, from the perspective of Indians, it can be interpreted as very patronising for them to be regarded this way, so try not to fall into this trap (I’m not saying you are, but it’s a general objective opinion). However, perhaps it would be in your best interests for you to de-emphasise the “gori” aspect of your ethnicity (change your SM username too) and just discuss your experiences as an individual who happens to be of a Caucasian background, ie. your experiences and opinions are yours alone and should not be taken as somehow representative of white people en masse, even though a) as a non-South Asian you may have a different perspective on matters and b) as a white person you will have different experiences within certain quarters of Indian society as a result of your ethnicity.
Individuals from minority backgrounds can be very defensive of various aspects of their culture — often justifiably — especially if they are in an environment where the majority population does not necessarily have a very accurate and/or respectful perspective towards them. This appears to be particularly pronounced in some quarters of the North American desi population (if you’ve been following the various threads here on SM over the past few days then you’ll know what I mean), and it’s a factor of the way things currently are in that part of the world. Some terms are loaded with meaning and they have different connotations for different people, eg. “oppression”. So make sure that you are extra-viligant of people’s sensitivities and factor that into the equation when voicing your thoughts.
You need to ensure that you are respectful when talking about South Asian matters to a South Asian audience; not inaccurate or sycophantic, and neither should you hesitate in voicing any negative concerns if you feel you have a genuine reason for them, but just respectful and with consideration for the other party’s position. Sometimes in life it’s not what you say that affects the response, but how you say it.
SM commenters: Giving Pardesi Gori the benefit of the doubt for the moment, let’s try to ensure that too much isn’t accidentally read into her comments, otherwise it risks inadvertantly alienating someone who doesn’t necessarily have any nefarious intentions, even though some of her words may be ill-chosen. Too much vitriol will trigger a self-fulfilling prophecy. It isn’t unknown for rejection to turn an enthusiast of a different culture into the opposite racist extreme.
siddhartha – I think some of your comments against Pardesi Gori sum up how I feel about super-educated upper middle class Indians in the US from privileged, well-to-do families, claiming a mantle of oppression……like, say, professors who write articles for the Washington Post in which they state they can never really be Americans 🙂
“Shall I put an X behind my name now?”
Sure. if your current name was forced upon you by people in the past who claimed ownership to your very being. The entire irony of it all is, by your repetitive whining about opression, and our need to respond to it critically, with poise and precision, you prove white privelage over and over again. When minorities make complaints of oppression, it’s enough for the white majority to shriek “stop playing the race card”, and shift the discussion how they please.
Please read Anna’s post regarding her rape experience. It is NOT ok to “oh please” women’s experiences of oppression in any form.
I for one refuse to give any benefit of doubt to Pardesi Gori especially after she made this vile allegation.
this thread is getting nasty yo.
I’m not picking on Taz, I just responded to a few of her presumptions, assumptions. I Don’t recall ever addressing Shruti, but I may have. I have generally avoided you and most of your posts but felt my above point was well worth addressing. I do identify as a woman with Anna’s post regarding her personal experience of rape and hence wanted to make it loud and clear that trivilizing a woman’s experience of sexual assault or harrassment in any form, is not the done thing. Now that you’ve clarified that is not what you are doing, so be it. I accept your words at face value that that is not what you intended.
Salam. Shanti.
P.S. I just searched several definitions of oppression, and not only is it a word to describe a collective experience, but it can also be used to describe an individual one as well. However, that being said, even if we were to use the “collective experience” as the sole definer, the word oppression as used by me above still stands. If you read my post # 216 you will see how. And we are not a group of white women. We are a group of non-Indians, of many colors, ethnic backgrounds, nationalities, and (2) genders. Just being pardesi in the Desh have made our experiences similar and many of the experiences can be categorized as “collective oppression”.
If Indians, admittedly among the most successful ethnic blocks, unite and lobby as a ‘people’ its only a matter of time before whites do. Whites are increasingly fed up with this double standard, sensible Indians can see that’s just what it is, a gross double standard (and i am sure many of you have similar feelings about the caste-quotas back in India)
As for the comments about german-american, ect, that NEVER used to happen before the 1960s . My grandfather was from northern Ireland and my father barely knew it, and always insisted they were American first and last. We cannot remain a nation if we break up into separate cultural and ethnic blocks. Do I have to tell Indians this, whose country, if we include the entire Raj, is now three separate countries and counting?
Multiculturalism multiethinic societies are usually held together with an iron fist and break up or descend into chaos. I prefer freedom over diversity, and it doesn’t like the two make good partners.
AlMfD,
I agree that mentioning Anna’s rape was highly misguided, although — reading PG’s post again — it is possible that PG has also been on the receiving end of attempted rape during her stay in India. I have no idea if this is the case — and it would be inappropriate and insensitive for any of us to actually as her to confirm or deny this, unless she decides to divulge the information herself — but it may be that she is speaking from similar experience.
Pardesi Gori,
You definitely shouldn’t have mentioned what happened to Anna as an analogy, at least not without clarifying exactly why you decided to use that particular (not to mention personal and extremely sensitive) example. Anna does not live in India and what happened to her in the United States is irrelevant to the misogynistic and patriarchal attitudes still prevalent within swathes of Indian society. Unless, again, something very similar actually did happen to you — not just “eve teasing” but actual physical assault — in which case you are of course under no obligation to expand further on your experience. However, either way, it would be in your best interests to perhaps choose your words a little more carefully next time. I am not saying any of this in a nasty way to you so it should not be interpreted as such by any means.
Im not sure ahy freedom and diversity can make good partners. Using the example of india you mentioned, there are dozens of languages and ethnic groups living together peacefullly in india. No iron fist required.
OK. I am sorry if I offend people with my words or the attitude presumed to be in existence behind my words.
Especially, as someone who is trying to practice a bit of yoga-sadhana to the best of her limited abilites (samskaras), sweet speech and peaceful vibes is paramount to progress. Negative vibes towards or from others can be a big set-back in sadhana.
Perhaps it is the Scorpio zodiac influence that often gets in between my intended message and the message itself, which may appear very stinging like a Scorion.
And yes, I admit to venting some pent-up frustrations regarding experiences over the years in India. I’m only human. Believe it or not, I’ve actually CALMED DOWN quite a bit over the last couple of years. 3 years ago I was almost on a rampage. That was due to feelings of utter helplessness in the situations I found myself in. Since then I’ve achieved more of a balance but the feedback from you all prooves to me I still have quite a ways to go.
At this point I want to offer, sincerely, peace, respect and good vibes to all.
Now I know why you told me that “C” programming was hard to learn; it was just a way of telling me to go screw off when I applied for a programming job. What a giant act of treason it was when they created the H-1B visa.
Gori,
Can you please do a search on white privelege and safe space while you are at? exotification? colonization? desi?
Because if you did, you would know that it ISN’T A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE WHITES UNITE. Homegirl, they’ve been doing it FOR YEARS. It is the history of the world, this nation, and colonization.
Please take Jai’s advice, and if you continue to comment on this South Asian American blog, be respectful of the community, their experience, and hyphenated identity that we are manuevering through.
Basically, your comments on this thread, as the voice of an oppressor and a white woman, makes me feel unsafe to post my feelings because you negate my experience with words of oppressiveness. The point of the original blog was to acknowledge the “safe space” of the mutiny, which you have broke down in one thread. Please acknowledge your power, and learn how to deal with it in a space that has in many ways less power than you.
Gautham- unite with me when I say this- Stop. Feeding. The. Trolls.
Jai – much love on the effort, but at what point do we stop patting the heads privelege to make them feel ok? Don’t you think she’s gone too far?
And Gori? Take my advice and get a diversity training.
As for the comments about german-american, ect, that NEVER used to happen before the 1960s .
in the 19th century the irish american heirarchy of the catholic church repeatedly fought off german american attempts to create a separate and parallel system predicated on german language schools. the death of german language schools was world war I (see In Search of an American Catholicism by jay p. dolan and Catholicism and American freedom by john mcgreevy). but there was a long debate within the irish and irish american (many of the bishops were irish born) about whether patriotism was compatible with alleigence to rome. the ‘americanist’ camp eventually won this battle, but it was not over until well into the 20th century (some would argue that ‘americanism’ was a powerful influence on vatican ii and its capitulation to liberal democracy as compatible with the church teaching).
i tend to agree with the anti-multiculturalist sentiment, but bad arguments will get you no where in a venue where people in general disagree with you. not everyone is ignorant of history.
i tend to agree with the anti-multiculturalist sentiment
The devil is in the definition of multiculturalism. To you it might be about allowing seperate public pools for Muslim women in France, to George it is H-1B.
Taz,
I don’t know about patting priviledged people’s heads — and bear in mind what I said on the “Adoption” thread about how the events and dynamics in the United Kingdom regarding racial issues seem to be a little different in some ways to the situation in the US, so my own viewpoints and terminology will be significantly influenced by that — but I think that if there is some misunderstanding or accidental offensiveness by another party, it’s a better course of action to patiently explain to them where they may have gone wrong so that they can (ideally) take that on board as some constructive criticism and thereby learn from the experience. Unless the other party is being deliberately duplicitous, malicious, abusive, and/or is generally playing mind-games in an attempt at “chalaaki”. I’m sure you must be aware of my stance towards the latter by now 😉
I think she should endeavour to align her approach more accurately towards her audience, both in terms of what she says and the language (both English and Indian) that she uses.
And using words such as “Salaam” and “Shaanti” may be appropriate when speaking to very devout Muslims or in a situation consisting of devout Hindus respectively (both of which may indeed also consist of white people along with various non-white ethnicities), but not when speaking to an internet audience primarily consisting of American and British-based South Asian professionals, as it can be interpreted by the latter as a patronising attempt at manipulation (even though, in reality, the use of such terms may well just be an attempt to reach out and “connect” by the non-desi concerned).
i haven’t read all the comments, but they are getting ugly… and in my legume state of mind i want to state:
holy hummus.
“n the 19th century the irish american heirarchy of the catholic church repeatedly fought off german american attempts to create a separate and parallel system predicated on german language schools. the death of german language schools was world war I (see In Search of an American Catholicism by jay p. dolan and Catholicism and American freedom by john mcgreevy). but there was a long debate within the irish and irish american (many of the bishops were irish born) about whether patriotism was compatible with alleigence to rome. the ‘americanist’ camp eventually won this battle, but it was not over until well into the 20th century (some would argue that ‘americanism’ was a powerful influence on vatican ii and its capitulation to liberal democracy as compatible with the church teaching).
i tend to agree with the anti-multiculturalist sentiment, but bad arguments will get you no where in a venue where people in general disagree with you. not everyone is ignorant of history.”
sorry, I should have made this more clear – the largest immigrant groups during the great waves were protestant northern irish and british (scotland, wales, england) they assimilated right in. Other groups did try to stay separate and they were vigrously chastised by the president on down…try doing that today. Teddy R said there’s no such thing as a hyphenated american – he said that speaking to a group of german and irish groups. Imagine Bush saying that to mexican americans, many of whom openly are saying the southwest is theirs, today?
it’s very simple, if this continues there WILL be separatist movements, There WILL be chaos, there WILL be increased violence, central authority, lack of social cohesion. Can anyone honestly tell me brining in mass immigrants to Europe has improved her one iota?
wow…u scare me.
it’s very simple, if this continues there WILL be separatist movements, There WILL be chaos, there WILL be increased violence, central authority, lack of social cohesion.
Are you going to burn yourself now?
I am sorry, but just look at the riots in France, the skyrocketing violent crime in Europe, different groups clammering (as people have done on this thread) that the law protect them from insult and even harsh criticism. Diversity and Freedom don’t mix. Its yet another utopian fantasy, perhaps not as immediately violent as those before it – fascism, Communism and such, but perhaps the most destructive ever.
“Basically, your comments on this thread, as the voice of an oppressor and a white woman, makes me feel unsafe to post my feelings because you negate my experience with words of oppressiveness.”
no offence, but don’t you think it’s a bit much and unfair to call pardesi gori an oppressor just because she happens to be white and appoint her the voice of the oppressor? some may view her comments as a bit abrasive, but i don’t think she was equating the sexual oppressiveness/harassment she felt (and which a lot of women feel, regardless of ethnicity) with the “oppression” of colonialism, slavery meted out by people who happen to have had a similar skin tone to hers etc. to me she comes across as someone who has more than a superficial interest in india, and at least her comments have some sort of weight of experience behind them given her time spent in india, who experienced a lot of good and bad, like people experience in any country. naturally, as an “outsider”, we get prickly about her comments and as an “outsider” her comments may sometimes be off the mark and colored by her own biases/prejudices/cultural mores. but i honestly don’t think she came here/to india in the spirit of “i am white, i know best” oppressor. she’s just one individual speaking about her own personal experiences and how she reacted to them, whether it was right or wrong (and there probably is no right or wrong).
Can anyone honestly tell me brining in mass immigrants to Europe has improved her one iota?
I thought the primary motivation of Europe opening gates to non-westerners were they had a serious shortfall in filling service industry jobs, more so blue collar. Germans did not let Turkish for some deep love – there were jobs Germans were not willing to do.
Now Ireland is opening gates to Eastern Europeans for the same reason.
None of them are for altruistic reasons. Some were the same motivation for 1965 Immigration Act at the height of cold war – the intention was to get Italian rocket scientists easily.
‘sorry, I should have made this more clear – the largest immigrant groups during the great waves were protestant northern irish and british (scotland, wales, england) they assimilated right in. Other groups did try to stay separate and they were vigrously chastised by the president on down…try doing that today. “
Let me logically break this down: a) I would say I’m about as assimilated as they come, for better or for worse. I was born in this country, grew up with its culture, norms and customs, and that’s just how my history progressed. b) Although I LOVE my country, I still face prejudice.
c) Thus, I can only conclude the problem is not that I am or am not assimilated (as you state in your defense of anti-multiculturalism) —-> it’s my skin color.
I just got through reading Pat bucahnan’s “State of Emergency” i would highly recommend it to everyone here, these facts struck me more than any. a. clinton fined/charged close to 18,000 businesses with hiring illegals. bush…184 or so. (yes 1-8-4) b. over million people enter here legally, perhaps as many legally. c. asian, black and hispanic congressmen had a closed conference – no whites were admitted – no press coverage (though the NYT reported it on the front page) about how they can ‘take more power’
If you have any interest in long term viability of america, you can see that all these things are disturbing trends.
so lets throw out or kill all the untermenschen and live in a homogenous paradise.
I can not relate to the virulent anti-white sentiments being expressed by so many on this thread…white privilege this, white privilege that…it must be torture for some of you guys (and gals) to live here amongst whites…you people are militant! I’m not crazy about Pardesi Gori’s comments but still not clear what she’s done to deserve this response. She’s touching a real raw nerve amongst some of you, and I don’t understand it.
You’re definitely not in the right place here.
“Diversity and Freedom don’t mix.”
Since you’re all for getting real, why don’t you just come out and admit, to you diversity doesn’t mean diversity in culture, it means diversity in skin color.