A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
Confidential to RC: That song isn’t about a guy’s height 😛
Back to your regularly scheduled programming. 🙂
andrea, Thanks 🙂 I get it. The song is old and I was more of an FOB back then. But hey, you learn something new every day.
Even they dont get any love (so I have heard) 😉
as rigid as he is, razib would normally endow this theory with some numbers, but it’s hard to measure.
Jai wrote:
Not really. Latins and Israelis would be offended by this comparison. And just for your information: indian children aren’t “pink” and Bipasha Basu isn’t darker than the average indian.
This level of delusion has got to be pathological. Yet another macaca mind screwed up by Bollywood trash.
Meena:
You dont get my point. Japanese are some of the biggest tourists in the world. Yet very few go to India (or Africa). Why? Because they tend to be repulsed by the abject level of poverty, filth, chaos and general human degradation they know they will find there. Ditto for whites. Now you will probably point out that you have seen some whites in Goa, or some ashrams, proving I am wrong 🙂
India gets something like 2 million tourists a year. Thats a fraction of what even a small country like Malaysia gets.
Gautham wrote: “IMO it’s already better to be in India if you are smart, talented and looking to get ahead in life and make serious $$$. India is where everything is happening.”
Sorry but this too is delusional. Dont buy into the “India Shining” BJP crapola:
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/kakani/2006/0820.html
“Economic statistics apart, India is groaning under a level of poverty hitherto unseen in the world. More than 200 million Indians live in slums and shanties bereft of any sanitation facilities. Millions of school students don’t see a teacher for weeks. More than 70 million children stay out of the school and work as child labour, often in very hazardous industries. By a former Prime Minister’s own admission “269 million Indians are food insecure.” In case the statement doesn’t ring the bells, it is worth noticing that there are millions who don’t get more than one meal, there are millions who share a meal in their family by turns (one meal for every member by turn), and there are millions who don’t know what it is to have a meal, for they eat nothing more than boiled rice with nothing more than a pinch of salt.
Health of a new born is one indicator of human development, and India again under performs. While in China only 10% children under five are born underweight, in India’s score is 53% – far higher than Mexico’s 8% and Pakistan’s 26%. The UN MMR numbers for India (540) are several times higher than those for other developing countries like China (56), Brazil (260), Thailand (44), Mexico (83) or even Sri Lanka (92).”
“China now produces over 450 million tonnes of food grains, while India continues to struggle to maintain 200 million ton record achieved a couple of years back.
While Chinese farm production is rising, the agriculture output in India is stagnant since last three years. This can’t be otherwise; a mere 21% of all farms in India have access to irrigation; remaining depend on rain gods to eke out one single crop. Farmers are crying because they are being supplied with rotten seeds, spurious insecticides, and last but not the least, no information. Though the country has hundreds of agriculture universities, there is a total disconnect between the agriculture scientists and the farming community; the farmers don’t know what to do about a new pest attack, which crops to sow in case of monsoon failure, and where to go to seek information regarding proper application of fertilisers.
Reasons enough while the farmers in China are singing all the way to the bank, their Indian counterparts are committing suicide in despair. During last five years more than fifteen thousand farmers have either consumed insecticides or jumped in a well or tied a rope around their neck due to farming becoming unprofitable.
This is not a happy state of affairs; farmers are the backbone of any nation, they provide the food to the masses. How farmers are important can be seen from the huge subsidies the Western countries dole out to them. Happy farmers can do wonders for the economy of a nation; while China is set to become net wheat exporter this year, India is getting ready to import upto 3.5 million tonnes of the same stuff.
The same dismal performance marks Indian industries. Writing a couple of years back Jay Dubashi, one of India’s leading economists, described the situation: “The industrial slump has affected everybody. If some companies have done well, it is because even in a slump, some companies manage to do well. But by and large, the industrial scenario is depressing.”
According to him “In the Thane-Belapur industrial belt (a prominent industrial zone near Mumbai), every other factory is closed. Company after company, including such big names like Siemens, Philips, Guest Keen Williams and British Oxygen is laying off people.” He further adds “Fifteen years ago, the textile mills of Bombay employed 250,000 millhands. Now they employ less than 30,000.”
The industrial rot is not limited to one particular segment; sector after sector is experiencing the same thing. Take for example something as simple as locks. For decades a non-descript town called Aligarh in Northern India produced locks of all shapes and sizes. However the import of Chinese locks knocked the Aligarh locks which were too heavy, too ungainly. Today the town wears a ghostly look.
The same fate befell on Bhiwandi, a town just a couple of miles out of Mumbai. Till a decade and a half back this town produced suitings and shirtings by tonnes, however its weavers could not cope with the cheap imports, as a result looms after looms folded up. The change was so swift that workshops sold their perfectly working machinery at the rate of scrap.”
“Western journalists think too highly of India’s forays in education field. Many have written glowing accounts of Indian Institutes of Technology or IITs. The fact is that the IITs produce barely 3,000 graduates a year, most of whom go abroad or join multinationals. However in their backdrop there are millions of children who don’t see a blackboard in their life, there are millions who enroll in a school but drop out of it within five years, and there are millions who stay in the school but never see the face of the teacher.
Many journos eulogize India being the largest democracy in the world, however the fact is that the Indian legal system is far from perfect. Cases take decades to decide, allowing crooks to get away with their crime, and thus make a mockery of democracy. Hundreds of thousands of under-trails stay in jails simply because courts are too inefficient to bring their case to trial stage. Recently one man got out of jail after languishing in the jail for a solid 54 years – without a trial. The sad case was hilarious at the same time; neither the man nor the law-keepers knew what he was imprisoned for.”
“Even the most basic civic amenities are missing. A recent article in Economic Times quoted the latest Development Policy Review of the World Bank which says that the typical doctor at a primary health centre in Delhi is less competent than in Tanzania, and the chances of his recommending harmful treatment are 50:50. “One in five children drop out before class V. Teacher absenteeism is rampant, and half the Standard V children in five states cannot read Class II texts. Water supply is just four hours a day in Delhi, 2.5 in Bangalore and 1.5 in Chennai, against round-the-clock supply in Jakarta or Colombo. Electricity supply is terrible, and 30% of it is stolen with impunity.”
You don’t need World Bank reports to verify the situation. A casual drive through Mumbai (formerly known as Bombay) will describe the state of affairs. The so called financial capital of the country has thousands of people defecating along the roads while traffic creeps within three meters of them. Thousands of women get up before 4 AM to be able to relieve themselves without being noticed. Many women have testified that they often skip a meal simply because it would mean an extra trip to the toilet.”
“Health of a new born is one indicator of human development, and India again under performs. While in China only 10% children under five are born underweight, in India’s score is 53% – far higher than Mexico’s 8% and Pakistan’s 26%. The UN MMR numbers for India (540) are several times higher than those for other developing countries like China (56), Brazil (260), Thailand (44), Mexico (83) or even Sri Lanka (92).””
you know, these countries would be offended and insulted even by the comparison. no one likes black indians.
“when I see white people trying very hard to integrate themselves into Indian culture, I do a double take, like many people. I always wonder about the reasons. You decline to give yours, and I won’t pry, but I often assume that the person in question is unsatisfied with their own background and trying very hard to find some other culture they can adopt to make up for it.”
Sheer hypocrisy. What are YOUR reasons for trying so very hard to integrate into the western culture that gave you science, technology, even the english language you are so proud to be proficient in?
Be flattered that at least a few non-indians are interested at all in indian culture. Its ridiculous to see the same indians who boast of appropriating the english language and mangling it into “hinglish”, pretending to get all hot and bothered when a handful of whites get interested in indian music or something.
This could be a reflection of the ancient caste/jati exclusivism that has plagued hindu society: only we are supposed to do this, no one else.
I wonder if they are “hot and bothered” by Jon Higgins…
“This could be a reflection of the ancient caste/jati exclusivism that has plagued hindu society: only we are supposed to do this, no one else.”
some would be offended, even insulted, by your offering of an opinion. AS IF anyone cares about the opinions of a black indian!
Also, regarding “male attention” for desi women, it may be due to the fact that for the average guy, a hottie is a hottie regardless of her ethnicity (unless they have some kind of fetish).
Yes, this was the case w/ my sis, who is like a shorter desi version of Halle Berry. Guys have been chasing her around since she was 14 (ALL TYPES). She dated guys from ALL races, except Native American (I think), but ended up finally w/ a white (German-American) guy.
Also, regarding “male attention” for desi women, it may be due to the fact that for the average guy, a hottie is a hottie regardless of her ethnicity (unless they have some kind of fetish).
men are less racially selective on internet dating sites.
razib_the_atheist:
No doubt. You have to be a black bangladeshi atheist to be taken seriously in this world. 🙂
I note also your contempt for Ramesh Ponnuru for having married a fat woman! Really mature aren’t you?
I criticize multiculturalism a lot on this blog, so allow me to clarify. Someone who studies and genuinely falls in love with a foreign culture is gaining a great perspective on life. Unfortunately, for us non-whites, multiculturalism means studying our own culture as a means of therapy to counter an assumed inferiority complex by overcompensating with racial pride. But this pride robs us of the notion that we are individuals who choose our values, and that our culture consists of ethnocentric prejudices that must be overcome.
Whites however, even in white studies, are taught that they hold these prejudices and must break free of them. In todayÂ’s world, this is the true white privilege. They are allowed to transcend race. A white person could embrace Indian culture, language, art, religion, philosophy, etc—and even consider this culture to be superior to others including their own–without anyone accusing them of self-hatred. We have no such luxury.
“I note also your contempt for Ramesh Ponnuru for having married a fat woman! Really mature aren’t you?”
no, i’m not mature. so? can only non-blacks me immature?
consider this culture to be superior to others including their own–without anyone accusing them of self-hatred. We have no such luxury.
Yes, you will always be a sand you know what, to truly get people to perceive you as an individual would, imo, require a complete transformation of the human brain.
“IMO it’s already better to be in India if you are smart, talented and looking to get ahead in life and make serious $$$. India is where everything is happening.”
Sorry but this too is delusional. Dont buy into the “India Shining” BJP crapola
The question is, Can Gautham go back to India and make a go of it, not whether people are still living in holes. We know that. Some people have gone back. And the IT salaries at least, when adjusted for cost of living, are not so bad.
But I have no idea what his skill sets are.
you will always be a sand you know what
to some people.
when RtA said this, I thought of spike lee, who gets upset when he sees successful black men with fat white women, b/c he thinks they are clearly buying into the notion of white superiority. Apparently, in this framework, a black man who is with a hot white woman is more likely to be genuiniely transcending race…b/c he is embracing the male universal love for hotness, not whiteness.
So yo see shazam, razib is more or less embracing your philosophy.
My parents are not the kind of people who would make it a point to remind their children constantly of their Indian culture and heritage and only speak the mother tongue at home. In fact, they are pretty liberal compared to most Indian parents – I can freely discuss such concepts as pre-marital sex with both of them. They’ve never made dating or love marriage an issue either, as long as it’s with a good person. I don’t know about anything else, but I just did my own thang.
Yeah, my (Bangladeshi) parents are like this as well. They have become more and more tolerant of how things are (typically) done in US. I can talk to them about ANYTHING these days- it’s the BEST feeling! No one ever called me “white,” but one of our old family friends (an auntie who was the unofficial head of the community) once cut down my sister in this manner (behind her back, of course). She saw how my sis dressed and acted (around our college campus) and said: “Well, she’s just like a white girl!” I think sometimes people say this b/c they are jealous, insecure, or too set in their own ways.
razib,
Unfortunately, I must! Due to a chronic affliction of the digestive system I cannot ingest any spicy food. Or for that matter, even gasp mangoes!
To make an addition on cultural misappropriation. My mother is a carnatic musician who studied in Kalakshetra and a good friend of hers is a fellow musician of German origin. The man’s even written a book on South Indian classical music. There was also an acquaintance of us who was a Dutch tambura player. Mum also used to be quite into the bharath natyam ‘scene’, and I’ve known several teachers and many pupils, and you’d be suprised how very many of those were not of Indian origin! In fact, we knew a Russian lady and she and her daughter were quite devoted to the art.
Shazam,
Don’t you think though that this reflects more on Indians than whites or Japanese? The fact that the government turns a blind eye to mindless poaching, destruction of forests, poverty, bureaucracy and filth on the streets? They don’t seem to be very concerned with making a good impression on the ‘firangi’.
Shazam,
A hell of a lot of South Asians here in the UK do look like the groups I mentioned. They’re mostly from the northwestern corners of the subcontinent, and the British climate also affects matters, both of which I mentioned clearly before.
I’ve met people from both backgrounds here and they are certainly not offended by it — it’s something they’ve noticed themselves. Perhaps attitudes are different amongst these groups in the US.
However, Africans would laugh their heads off if an Indian — at least one belonging to the majority North Indian communities in Britain — claimed to be “black”. Trust me.
My previous comment was a joke. However, Bipasha Basu is noticeably darker that the average British Punjabi or Pakistani, along with large numbers of the local Gujarati community.
Why don’t you tell us exactly where in India your ancestry lies (as previously requested), instead of constantly making negative assumptions about other commenters ? It’s not a complicated question.
Gautham,
re: post #292
You should not assume my intention was to be “patronising” — it is because, as I mentioned before, I went through exactly the same thought-process as you when I was your age, and (on a larger scale) the US appears to be approximately 10-15 years behind the UK in this matter, as I’ve also commented on before on SM a number of times.
Your experience is not uncommon. Most 2nd-Generation South Asians in the UK have been through all of this. Coupled with the fact that we live in a former imperial power directly responsible for the colonisation of our ancestors, you can imagine what the atmosphere was like when our parents first migrated here and when we were growing up. Don’t underestimate this.
The change has been achieved through various methods; some of which are pretty much identical to the actions taken by yourself and Razib. The Punjabi (read: Sikh) and Pakistani majority of the British desi population has also influenced how 2nd-Gen desis reacted to racism, both physical and psychological (you can read between the lines in terms of what this entailed). Matters also changed significantly due to proactive measures taken by British desi in terms of both legal resources and their growing presence in the British media, from Goodness Gracious Me onwards. This isn’t to say that there is no racism whatsoever here — some would say it’s just much less overt — but generally things have improved massively. It’s been a two-way process; South Asians actively taking steps to counteract racism & ignorance, and the majority white population themselves redressing their attitudes. “Comic” figures such as Apu on The Simpsons would not be tolerated in the mainstream British media, and haven’t been for a very long time indeed.
London, of course, is not necessarily representative of the rest of the country. There are areas here, particularly in the norht, where massive segregation and prejudice still exists. Unfortunately the racism has also often become a two-way street, as indicated in its most extreme form by 7/7, the current transatlantic airline bombing plot, and various other jihadi trials and investigations presently underway.
I think that it may be worthwhile for you to consider re-locating to a major American city (New York ?) where there are very large numbers of Indians present. If this is possible, it may be a good idea and perhaps something you should consider 😉
i will do some number crunching this weekend. this is a serious issue, as the % of non-hispanic whites keeps dropping majority minority situations will become more and more common. i have plenty of friends who grew up in california who are quite resentful of majority minority racism (in their case, usually asian). pretty soon every group can join in on the pity party!
Fair enough. I have no idea about California and it very well might be very different over there. Look only a moron would deny that minority racism does not exist against the whites in the US. I however take serious issue with the alleged potency and magnitude of the problem. You and some other people here are frustated by the brown grievance mongering in this comments section and its quite true that the browns in the US are not doing that bad and in fact for the most part desi browns are not affected by the lingering problems of past institutional racism in the US. I think the US has for the most part done away with insitutional racism and what we have now are the negative consequences of past institutional racism which for the most part affect African Americans.
BTW for me institutional racism means top down racism where the ‘man’ uses overt laws (segregation) or insidous laws (funding of schools based on local property taxes where the population is already self segregated and economically broken down on racial lines) or disparate application of neutral laws (GI Bill). The desi browns have not been adversely affected by the past insitutional racism or even by the current consequences of it. So I am certainly not a member of the desi brown pity party even though I do believe that the African Americans are still being adversely affected by past institutional racism.
However lets not give the white grievance industry in the US a pass. The belief in the new white grievance industry is that the former ‘man’ has now come become the ‘oppressed’ and the system is working againt the white man. That surely has something to do with the way the white males vote. I know there are other reasons as well, but this is certainly one of the reasons (maybe some polls can point to how big a reason) as to why the white males overwhelming vote for the Republicans. The Republicans are perceived in some quarters as defending the endangered white males against the liberals who want to oppress the white male for his forefathers sins. The above obviously is a caricature but it has some truth to it. I dont believe that the liberals/system is working against the white man and I dont believe that there rights are being compromised in the US. Affirmative action, minority allocation of government contracts, politically correct society are not potent enough at any level to endanger the white man.
non-indians would be offended by the comparison, insulted even. indians smell. and they’re black. and india is not shining. and all civilizations were black before the ice people came. NOT EVEN true.
black pride! everyone hates brown–oops-black, people!
So other people laugh when foreigners try to mimic their traditions, and Indians don’t. We are so much better than everyone else, huh? Dude, what planet are you from?
Anybody who thinks Indians are not racist/prejudiced need only read half the comments on this thread to get rid of such wholesome notions.
Maybe you should actually try and make a few ‘whiter’ friends? You might find, to your surprise, that at an individual level, other people are not that different from us, whatever their color might be.
Oh and btw, salsa (dance) is NOT a spanish thing, but a Latin American and an USA-ian thing. I suggest you check your facts before spinning out wild theories.
Wow!!!!!!!!
Gautam and Shruti –
Would it suprise you to know that most of the Indian culture enthusiasts who are not Indian don’t really care all that much whether Indian people love or dispise what they are doing?
Most of us (speaking for the ones I know) grew up with a very individualistic ethos and we do what we do because – we like it. People from our own culture or any other culture may or may not like it, and that does not effect us all that much, if at all. We do not expect praise. We do not expect scorn. We just are.
However, I will say this much –
After years of living and working in India, I am still greeted by many Indians with, “it is surprising and wonderful to meet a foreigner who has taken up Indian culture so thoroughly, in effect becoming more Indian than us. What is it about Indian culture that has made you reject your own culture in favor of it?” I looooooove that question. Because then I get to explain that I have not rejected my own (or any other) culture for Indian culture, and that while there are many things I do love about Indian culture, I am quite frankly happy I did not take birth within it, and I feel there are alot of things that need to be improved upon (as it is with any culture), and I am not apologetic about sharing my opinions about what exactly needs to be improved upon and how. That introduction usually preceeds a very long and pertinent conversation regarding sexual harrassment (referred to as “eve teasing”) there.
Now Gautham makes the point that some foriegners may water down an appropriated culture, or not take into consideration cultural norms in their behaviour. I have seen first hand the watering down, but that tends to be in relation to religious customs, beliefs or theories, which some foriegners may be ignorant of (example; the “tantric sex” explosion). However, even the tantric sex enthusiasts of the West are simply taking a core tenant of something, albeit perhaps out of context, and expanding on it in their own way, as would benefit their society or individual lives. Tantra as precisely practiced in India may not be culturally, socially or even physcially appropriate/possible in the West. Hence, one small aspect of it is extracted and transformed to fit the environment where it is exported into. Just like McDonald’s, as it is in the West, is not culturally or socially appropriate in India, and thus the Big Mac transforms itself in India to meet the environment’s (people’s) needs there.
I do however, share a disdain for the COMMERCIALIZATION of religions, anywhere, at anytime, in almost any form.
As far as not being sensitive to cultural norms. Well, my experience has been that non-Indians in India DO make efforts to blend in as much as possible. You can see this especially in clothing attire. In India I wear salwar in 100+ degree heat when I should be wearing shorts. Of course I know that a small percentage of women in metropolises like New Delhi and Mumbai wear shorts, but I do not feel comfortable doing so. Heck – even on Indian beaches I wear salwar! I am very much aware of the cultural norms there and try to adhere and blend in as far as possible. However, there are certain grey areas of Indian “cultural norms” that one could argue if they are really “cultural norms” or perhaps “cultural aberrations”. Just because I’m not Indian does not mean I cannot speak out against these or even try to change them, especially when they effect me directly and go against universal principles of human rights.
That brings us back to the topic of sexual harrassement. I am aware that it is not a cultural norm to use the word “sex” in India, especially in public, especially in mixed gender company. But I do it all the time because I feel that this is one cultural norm that has to be burned and it’s ashes thrown in the Ganga to float out to sea forever. I will not cloak sexual harrassment behind the polite term “eve teasing” because sexual harrassment itself is not “polite”. Cultural norms be damned in this instance!
Beyond “cultural sensitivity” there is a higher ground of COMMON PRINCIPLES FOR ALL HUMANITY, regardless of where we are. If someone from outside of my country or culture can teach me something about them, will I not listen? Sometimes it takes an outside perspective to gain a deeper one within our own “cultural norms”.
I see myself as someone who, having ended up in India by choice, and having conformed to many aspects of Indian culture(s) by choice, also is unapologetic about my choices and my right to express an individual opinion, regardless if it goes against someone’s perceived “cultural norms”.
I will practice an authentic form of religion (based primarily in India), and I will also act authentically ME – both unapologetically.
Let Vasundhara Auntie next door be appalled that this mandir attending gori also physically touches her male friends in public. There is nothing in our religion (which Gori shares with Vasundhara Auntie) forbidding that, despite the fact that Vasundhara Auntie may deem it a “cultural norm”, hence refraining from touching even her own husband of 20+ years in public.
Like I said before, sometimes it takes an “outsider” to make us reflect on our own dearly held beliefs regarding “cultural norms”.
Gautham,
Don’t let these people discourage you from planning your move back to India. Although I think American manufacturing will come back as the population increases and China’s wages rise and population get older, there’s some serious problems with the American economy (see Kevin Phillips’ chapter on the “financialization of the economy” in American Theocracy). It also looks like bin Laden’s plan for financially bleeding the U.S. through drawing them into war is working. Friedman’s picture of India is probably a little too rosy, but I still think it’s economic rise is going to be slow and steady. Probably a good 30 years away in terms of GNP. Some economists say China’s economy is growing too fast. Plus we’re one terrorist attack away from profiling becoming official policy. Even in 30 years per capita GNP is going to be well below that of the U.S, but I’m sorry but I place a high value on my dignity and I don’t think profiling is ok. As I said in an earlier post, Hispanic immigration is going to make discrimination less common as America grows browner. I’m not saying the U.S. is a bad place to live, but India isn’t bad either. You should go for it http://www.economist.com/markets/indicators/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7282749 http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060701faessay85401/gurcharan-das/the-india-model.html http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/China%27sEconomyIsOutOfControl.aspx?page=all http://www2.goldmansachs.com/insight/research/reports/report32.html
Pardesi gori,
And you expect your lectures on behavior to be taken seriously after that introduction? Amazing.
Actually, most French(Parisians included) will be very pleased if talked to by tourists in their native language. In my experience they’re more receptive, although generally they are very helpful even if one doesn’t speak French.
Siddhartha,
I’m not singling out just Indians, I made it a point that the one’s I know are not particularly concerned if people from our culture or other cultures like what we do or not. We like it. It makes us happy. That’s really the bottom line in anything.
Now THAT is an obnoxious statement. It is quite obvious that you (Pardesi Gori) look down on ‘Vasundhara Aunty’ for her culturally-derived behaviour, whereas you are so cool because you touch your male friends in public. You’re taking quite the judgemental stance there. And you can get away with it because it is India. I encourage you to go to Pakistan and try to touch your male friends in public there in front of ‘Niloufer Aunty’. As someone who comes from a somewhat traditional, somewhat conservative family background in India, in which few of the women in my mom’s and NONE of the women in my grandmothers’ generation would have touched their husband in public, I think your statement sucks. Things in my generation are different, which is cool, it’s part of a gradual cultural change, and what was right for my grandfather may not be what’s right for me, but I have full respect for the cultural norms of my previous generations. Learn a little humility and try not to be so offensive.
Pardesi Gori hasn’t said anything remotely offensive. If she was of Indian descent, and said that while she conformed to many North American customs (like most of us), but didn’t give a damn what whiteys and the Joneses down the street think about her wearing salwar kameez and cooking curry, no one here would be biting her head off. We’d be applauding.
Jai, why am I not surprised to see you back to your colour-obsessed ways? Get over your light skin, already.
as i said earlier: amazing.
Pardesi Gori: So it’s ok to own a slave if it makes you happy? Before anybody jumps on me for comparing slavery to cultural appropriation, I’m using hyperbole to make a point. I realize there’s a big difference. As an Indian-American, I have to think about how it would make an African American feel if I started appropriating hiphop dress codes, etc. as someone who grew up upper-middle class. I know there are Indians that do that, and I think it’s silly. Sure I’ll listen to a little hiphop once in awhile, but that doesn’t make me think I can become a hiphop artist. I got no problem with white people appreciating and practising Indian culture, but your comments, in the words of Tom Cruise, were “glib.” There’s a difference between what you were saying and what Nina P was saying.
razib_the_atheist:
I like Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery definition (#401)of institutional racism. Despite your blog entry, I think the wiki page on it is good. An example would be the descrimination a black couple would face in trying to get a home mortage despite having the same income as a white couple. I would agree that there are very few laws that are discriminatory today, but discrimination like this still take place.
I doubt Shazam is Indian. It is easy to guess from the writing whether the person is Indian. The identity of Indian writers can be deduced from turns of phrase, certain expressions and sometimes grammer. For some reason black posters appear on indian sites to persuade Indians to take the black side in the black white racial quarrel. Shazam please answer Jai’s question. The other person who I suspect is not Indian is Meena.
Pardesi Gori is the typical arrogant white who believes her values have a universal claim. You have a lot in common with Bush neoconservatives.
Meenakshi,
As I commented on the thread regarding the “New Hare Krsnas”, non-Indians often take up Indian religions just as rigorously or more so than many Indian themselves. This often is seen in the arts, as you narratted above regarding your dance experience. I find that people who come from outside of a culture, free of negative cultural stereotypes and baggage (often dealing with gender issues), and one-pointedly with determination (must have sufficient time on their hands for that), dedicate themselves to the study of a religion or art form, often come away way more knowledgeable than many people born into the countries and cultures from where those religions or art forms originally sprouted. Why? Many people just take for granted things from their culture as is and don’t delve deep into them. Often times local superstitions mix with authentic religious disciplines (sadhana). Often times “societal norms” will get mixed up in religion, that is very often the case. And of course there is also the time factor. One who gives alot of time to the study of something will come away with more knowledge of it than one who does not.
I do not begrudge Indians who use more English than their mother tongue or who prefer Pre-Fab Sprout to Lata Mengeshwar, or don “half pant” to lungi. Are they misappropriating “my culture”? Maybe. Who cares?
This beautiful planet with all it’s colors and cultures is ours to explore and love!
Last time I checked I was 100% brown and 100% Indian by heritage. kthx.
Dharma Queen – your observation is spot on.
Amitabh and UPS –
I don’t begrudge Vasundhara Auntie her ways. But she begrudges me mine. Therefore I brought her in as an example of someone who has mixed her own idea of societal norms (some of which I do not share) with the practice of religion (we share the same). I practice the religion, without her cultural baggage (I have my own). But I do not conflate my cultural baggage with my religion.
Sunny –
Me arrogant? Check. Me white? Check. Me believe my personal values have universal claim? Only the ones that do.
A side note about clothing appropriation – In India most people prefer foriegners there to wear some type of Indian clothing. This is appreciated far more than donning shorts and halter tops in the summer time at least. The Indians do not take offense at us wearing salwar-kameez, sari, dhoti, etc. On the contrary they like it. It is a sign of some sort of willingness to assimilate. Just like most of the posters here wear “western” style clothing when in the West, but probably when in India too.
“I do not begrudge Indians who use more English than their mother tongue.”
Thank you. It really means a lot to me.
I think Pardesi Gori is unwittingly pointing something out which we all should know very well – that Indians can be quite as insular, judgmental and exclusive of the ‘other’ as ‘white’ culture is. I personally suffer from this as acutely when around Indians as I do from the subtle racism of Canadian society – to the extent that I now avoid going to India period (I’m not from a wildly liberal part of India). Both perspectives are horrible. Those of us, black, brown, yellow, red, white, who want to do our thing – yes, because it makes us happy and hurts no one – are caught in between.
Last time I checked I was 100% brown and 100% Indian by heritage. kthx.
really? where’s you racial certification card? are all 4 of your ancestors brown as the utah hills?
Sunny – save it for the real neocons out there, who think India is a hotbed of cow-worshipping wife-burning impoverished terrorists who moonlight as callcentre employees. And those are the ones who think about India (the term ‘think’ being used in rather a loose sense…)at all.
dharma queen,
the real neocons (as opposed to the left caricature) probably see india as a potential ally against islam & china (speaking as a non-neo, but con).
Ouch, you got me. My ancestors are all varying colours of brown, ranging from sandy tropical beaches to milk chocolate. Though, I’ve never been as far West as Utah.
(On a more serious note, I’ve never been asked to fill out my race on any form I’ve ever had under my nose here)
Pssst…who is this Sunny character anyway?
UPS – You’re welcome. Anytime!
Dharma Queen – I feel you.
At one time I faced alot of prejudice in India. Not from the Indians in my social circle, but from the wider populace of locals in the area where I resided. There’s only so much ignoring of it and pretending it’s not there that someone can do until they have to wake up and smell the prejudicial java.
As much as someone like me would like to believe that human beings are inherently benevolent to all, and all that good stuff, well, like many posters here pointed out, racism and prejudice does exist and effect people deeply. I guess it’s how we deal with it that makes the difference. You said you dealt with it by ceasing trips to India. That’s kind of where I’m at right now. I ended up spending more time in USA in the past few years than in the previous entire decade that I had primarily resided in India. However, now when I go back, having recognized the problem and gone through “silent sufferer victim” mode to “militant confronter/reformer” mode to “i just don’t have the time to give a damn about the opinions of people i don’t even know” mode, I pretty much have reached a peaceful resolution.
And that is “doing what makes me happy as long as it hurts no one” mode. As you have rightly pointed out above, that is my (and yours) attitude, and although some like Siddhartha and others may find it rude, glib, arrogant, insensitive or otherwise, it’s the only thing that works peacefully and keeps my sanity in tact in an area of the world (not entire India, but like you, I resided in a “not wildly liberal” part of the country, as you put it) where the entire neighborhood makes everytime you run to the subzi mandi to buy tomatoes and what you were wearing when doing so, a part of their daily dinner conversations.
Like that movie…..
ENOUGH! (already)