A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
I think razib just fell on a real issue, especially in high school. i’m sure razib will pull some studies out of his ass showing how looks affect employment, but you don’t need studies to know this basic human bias.
I’ve seen even ann coultler coo over good looking hispanic dudes, and she was really into that desi heckler who shouted profanities at her (she kept repeating how good looking he was), though i can’t explain the dinesh d’souza thing.
So is the USA. The “anglo” population is dropping as it never has before.
this is not quantitatively true i would hold. there was a massive irish wave in the 1840s, germans in the 1850s, and then the “great migration” between 1880 and 1920. change has happened. assimilation and accommodation both occured (e.g., in the 1850s the national drink became beer, thanks to the skills of german immigrants).
I’ve seen even ann coultler coo over good looking hispanic dudes, and she was really into that desi heckler who shouted profanities at her (she kept repeating how good looking he was)
Do you have a source for that?
i’m sure razib will pull some studies out of his ass showing how looks affect employment, but you don’t need studies to know this basic human bias.
the last studies i saw suggest that being “good looking” adds 10% to your salary if you are male, and 5% if you are female. being fat really is a big hit if you are female, not so much if you are male. your height at age 16 is an excellent predictor of an income padding vis-a-vis those who are shorter (if you have a growth spurt at 20, doesn’t matter, your psychology seems shaped by your height at 16).
Do you have a source for that?
there were fox news clips linked from SM on coulter’s creepy preoccuptation with the heckler dude. a friend of actually talked to me about, he thought it was funny cuz he assumed she’d be racist.
gautham,
i’m a little under 30. but i wasn’t politically aware as a child. i was just a child!
Amfd: here is a transcript of the hannity interview.
Also, I think the question of being good-looking is pretty pertinent,
cool. forget the white america immigration policy. only let in good looking adults, and problem solved.
(though the obesity thing can creep up on you)
OT: Razib, which years saw the highest waves of immigration from desistans? Am I in the ballpark to think mid 70’s?
this is not quantitatively true i would hold. there was a massive irish wave in the 1840s, germans in the 1850s, and then the “great migration” between 1880 and 1920. change has happened. assimilation and accommodation both occured (e.g., in the 1850s the national drink became beer, thanks to the skills of german immigrants).
White anglos by new births are only 55% I believe, and hispanics are 50% of population growth. The question is whether the mestizo Mexicans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans et. al. become “white” as the Irish and Germans did. Speak English? Yes. Become white? I am skeptical, not for a long while.
Reminds me of a libertarian talking head (forget who) who said we should compromise on the same sex marriage issue by gradually introducing what most Americans will find palatable: hot lesbians.
The human preference for “good looking” starts pretty early in life and seems to be genetically programmed:
OT: Razib, which years saw the highest waves of immigration from desistans? Am I in the ballpark to think mid 70’s?
i think the late 90s actually. you can check the census site, but i’m pretty sure that 1990-2000 way surpassed the previous decades. 2000-2010 might top it, i don’t know, haven’t looked at projections.
Become white? I am skeptical, not for a long while.
well, on the census they are white. or, around half of them are. many groups, like cubans, were white and racist in cuba, but here in the states they have taken advantage of being part of a “minority,” but within their own community white cubans identify as white from what i have heard from white cubans (and are quite racist against afro-cubans who also came to miami). in any case, even if mestizos who put white on the census as their race don’t “look white,” half-white children usually can “pass.” where there’s a will, there’s a way.
i agree that the current wave is different, but, we shouldn’t get carried away and lose historical perspective. the big difference, that worries me, is that white anglos seem to have lost assimilative will. and frankly, there’s already a mexico, a china and an india. there’s need lifeboat reason to preserve these cultures and overwhelm anglo culture in the USA.
Gautham:
good points. I would like to add some other differnces.
i hear some desi kids today on SM get some peer pressure to act desi, not white. this was virtually non-existent in my day.
the only people who wanted us to act
desiindian were our parents, so we naturally rebelled against this.we had no multiuculturalism, so we were not trained by the educational establishment to see ourselves as victims, and just as importantly, we didn’t see for political purposes, the superstructure of white privlidge everywhere (right or wrong).
Interesting that u grew up in a black neighborhood, as your philosophy is pretty mainstream among american blacks, though less so amoung black immigrants.
3. we had no multiuculturalism, so we were not trained by the educational establishment to see ourselves as victims, and just as importantly, we didn’t see for political purposes, the superstructure of white privlidge everywhere (right or wrong).
i have young siblings. there is a big difference. they talk a lot of shit about their heritage, but they say stupid shit too. e.g., “i’m basically from india.” well, i would say that, but at least i was born abroad, if not in india, close to it.
BTW, I thought this a good opportunity to ask about something I’ve observed. My daughter, who’s 4.5 yrs old, seems to form real tight friendships with black/brown girls at her school.
Yes, I’ve observed this with my little cousins also (ages 7-11) here in Queens. But, they have ALWAYS been around Bangladeshis, Latinos, and other minority kids.
What you saw w/ your child happened to me (when I first came to NYC area). Several 2nd gen Chinese, Korean, Haitian, and mixed-ehtnicity young ladies sought me out as friend in grad school.
Then I started going to some desi events and met MANY Hindus (and a few Muslims here and there). I sought these people out b/c I wanted to have people like me to relate to. Where I grew up, people assumed I was Mexican (30% Mexican-American population) until they got to know me. It was hard to make friends in high school (partly b/c I was shy), but my race/cultural background MAY have played a part as well.
As Razib has said, there is NOTHING wrong w/ being whitewashed; my little sister and brother don’t care much for desi stuff. Maybe they will change there mind when they’re older, but it doesn’t matter!
1. i hear some desi kids today on SM get some peer pressure to act desi, not white. this was virtually non-existent in my day.
Thats cos of critical mass due to immigration. If you have to drive more than an hour to a desi grocery store, chances are you will not have that pressure.
3. we had no multiuculturalism, so we were not trained by the educational establishment to see ourselves as victims, and just as importantly, we didn’t see for political purposes, the superstructure of white privlidge everywhere (right or wrong).
Trivializing the very real problems that many kids have testified to today, and interesetingly, blaming it all on the whites anyway, who presumably form the “educational establishment” 🙂
“even if every black or latino or asian person in america was racist against white people, it would collectively amount to nearly nothing, since none of those groups is in a position to really do anything to tip the balance of preference away from the mainstream white perspective”
You have obviously never been in a work environment, or even a city, where most of the people were black.
And funny, for someone who uses rape and genocide when dismissing multiculturalism, you seem to spend an awful lot of time on this site 🙂
I could hardly be the judge of that 😉 but yeah, I def think I am quite agreeable looking 😛 do you have any studies to prove the correlation between good looks and decline in racism? 😛
anyone know of any surveys of young brown kids today and their attitudes about culture and race in the USA?
meena, no, i don’t, but it’s an interesting idea.
I acknowledged other peoples divergent experiences. I was critiquing certain aspects of multiculturalism, which could lead people to an exaggerated sense of victimization, especially when mated with a political agenda.
actually the educational establishment is quite diverse, but the philosophical underpinnings of multiculturalism are certainly Western, especially the great western philosophies of cultural relativism and social determinism, which to varying degrees teaches us that we are not responsible for our own actions.
oooh. you got me there. I blame society.
oooh. you got me there. I blame society.
LOL at least you admit it, I credit you. Razib says somewhere in his works that our brains don’t operate holistically anyway.
Gautham,
I am <20 . Surprise or not? (I would expect a no.)
I agree with this:
Plus, I’m pretty much a non-conformist at heart, so the more I was being told that I was ‘too white’ the more I escaped into the ‘whiteness’. Besides that though, I just never gave it much thought. I was a kid. My parents are not the kind of people who would make it a point to remind their children constantly of their Indian culture and heritage and only speak the mother tongue at home. In fact, they are pretty liberal compared to most Indian parents – I can freely discuss such concepts as pre-marital sex with both of them. They’ve never made dating or love marriage an issue either, as long as it’s with a good person. I don’t know about anything else, but I just did my own thang. Maybe I went too far though – for years now I’ve been quite out of touch with the Indian community and cultural heritage. I barely even speak my mother tongue anymore.(That being Tamil.) I don’t watch Bollywood or listen to Indian music either(whether classical or pop). I’m pretty comfortable though with my identity the way it is. Call it white-washed if you like.
Sorry, just had to explain that race was a non-factor in all of this. 😛
A part of my sentence got left out. :O I meant to say: I am below twenty! Surprise or no? (Probably not!)
meena,
surely you don’t eat bland non-spicy food though???? say it ain’t so!
I grew up in America (The Bronx from age 3-8 and NJ from 8 onwards). I am now 34. I would say based on my experiences that, judged by a global standard, this is one of the least racist, most friendly societies out there (granted I have no experience with the Scandinavian countries). As for institutionalised racism, I’m sure it’s there to some extent, but it hasn’t held me back from achieving everything I could have hoped to in my chosen profession. As a kid of course I got teased, etc. at times. That all stopped after high school, and looking back on it, it was just kids who did that to me, not adults. Most other countries, including our beloved India (I’m being sarcastic although I do love India on many levels) are bastions of prejudice, racism, discrimination, you name it. Most of the ‘desi panthers’ on this thread who go on and on about white privilege, etc. don’t stop for a moment to consider the extraordinary privileges they themselves have due to their background in India. Gautham, you want to move back to India? You think India is ‘where it’s all happening’ these days? How about the bottom 70% of the country which is going nowhere and has no way whatsoever to break into the system over there. Talk about institutionalised discrimination. Bottom line, I love this country (the USA), I love (in general) the people here, and I love the opportunities here. And there is no reason one of your so-called priviledged white people should meet you guys half-way in terms of breaking down and deconstructing their priviledge, just because you guys say so. But I guess it is a matter of perception, experience, or just individual attitude…because my sister, growing up in the same exact circumstances as me, feels that racism and discrimination against minorities (inlcuding desis) is rampant here. So who’s right? I have no idea.
let’s not pick on gautham. he’s going back to india, he is no danger to our republic….
Regardless of whether you individuals are good-looking , try to think beyond your own experience. Yes, obviously looks, physique, your clothing, etc will come into play, as it does with everyone. Those are just other rungs on the ladder that everyone can relate to. Note that I’m not saying that we should judge others based on their looks and physique, but that there is variance of this within every “race”. The one thing that the white majority cannot relate to is being “brown” or any other visible minority. You can have an overweight person in your family or social group, and that may make you more empathetic to their plight, but relatability across race is probably less so. Being rejected based on race is not the same as being rejected for being overweight or unnattractive. So, yes, being good looking may SLIGHTLY increase your status, (except to hillbillies, who can’t see past your race). You should recognize this and realize that this does not mean that racism is non-existent – rather that you are priviledged in a small way, but that the fight to increase awareness is still on.
hey, let’s all of us concerned about the haters in the brown community do something, start up a marcus garvey style movement to get them back to where they are a racial majority! we can do a aliyah for young angry browns (though send them on a potemkin village tour so they don’t get scared) in preparation for their departure on adulthood. i’ll buy a URL tonight and perhaps throw some stuff together. how about browmzbackhome.com or something?
My comments above apply to desis only; I know that African-Americans do face a lot of institutionalised racism in this country.
You can have an overweight person in your family or social group, and that may make you more empathetic to their plight, but relatability across race is probably less so. Being
but many whites now have non-whites in their social group or family.
“However I dont believe that it rises to the level either in magnitude or broader social climate that it warrants the growth which we are seeing in the white grievance industry in the US.” An interesting discussion, and the variety of opinions is really startling, but then not so startling considering the diversity of India. I have always wanted to know more about the culture, and at one time would have considered adopting from India or China, but now, I feel it would be wiser to just send money if I want to help. But the above quoted comment took me aback. Oh how we all talk past each other. Speaking as a white person, I would say it is not exagerrated at all. That harassament on the bus that you sort of trivialize, left me almost sweating bullets from bad, even life threatening memories I can’t even talk about. I don’t know about the grievance committees–most whites will never talk about these things because you will be considered a racist and no one with any class wants to be a racist. There’s far, far more than you imagine, and no way to deal with such things except to bring them out in the open. You have aired your resentments and I am more conscious now of why Indians might feel a certain way about things. I hate “racism” whatever it is and whoever exhibits it. Whites are already a minority in many cities and I’ve seen every neighborhood in my hometown, change to black and nowadays to hispanic. That’s the march of history and how things work. Everything changes. Sometimes I think the most complaining people are the ones who most need to examine how they’d be if they were in the majority.
Short guys dont get any love from the ladies (They even made a song “dont want no short short man … or something) as well as studies have proven that they are less likely to get promotions in corporate environment. What about that discrimination??
My comments above apply to desis only; I know that African-Americans do face a lot of institutionalised racism in this country.
i still want to make sure i know what ‘institutionalized racism’ means, but, i think it is important that the wealthiest ethnic group in america get a little perspective. being black in america means a lot of things today that aren’t pleasant, and it meant a lot of things that weren’t pleasant. brown is not equivalent (by this, i don’t mean that browns are not black, lest shazzam sweep down from on high, we are black, we’re just relatively wealthy and healthy).
Short guys dont get any love from the ladies (They even made a song “dont want no short short man … or something) as well as studies have proven that they are less likely to get promotions in corporate environment. What about that discrimination??
you got nothing to live for. who cares?
“y comments above apply to desis only; I know that African-Americans do face a lot of institutionalised racism in this country.”
I feel that racism is not unilateral across the board. The target can change depending on the situation, geography, etc. I want to do something about the rampant racism against Aboriginals in my city and country.
“ut many whites now have non-whites in their social group or family.”
Not very many.
I hate “racism” whatever it is and whoever exhibits it. Whites are already a minority in many cities and I’ve seen every neighborhood in my hometown, change to black and nowadays to hispanic. That’s the march of history and how things work. Everything changes.
Amen.
“An interesting discussion, and the variety of opinions is really startling, but then not so startling considering the diversity of India”
Actually, I think most of the people commenting on this board are American/North American. Many born here, and most raised here.
Not very many.
give me a % so i can check (e.g., i don’t want to come back with a %, and have you say, “well, i meant % + x as ‘not many'”).
Sorry, Razib. I don’t have as much time as you do. The last time I read lit on the topic, this was the consensus that there was very little ethnic mingling. SO, I’ll leave it to you to find that – for gawd sake,I don’t even time to check your numbers! You could be taking us all for a ride, for all I know.
With 366 being said, I’ll forward this to some friends who have done research and studied the areas of inst’l racism. I hope they and others who have experience in this area can offer more insight and direct links to studies. I think it’s important and I don’t want it to just get swept under the rug with generalities. There is more to this than just opinions and subjectivity (not to undermine anyone’s experiences).
Sorry, Razib. I don’t have as much time as you do.
all you need to is give me what you consider as a % of “not many”. i am not requesting you to fire up scholar.google.com and waste 30 seconds of your time.
You could be taking us all for a ride, for all I know.
yes, you don’t have time to click the links i provide, how onerous.
Razib, don’t be insulted. I didn’t mean it as an insult. When I don’t have time to click links you provide, I don’t try to refute them at the same time. I’m not THAT lazy. And the whole “taking us all for a ride” thing was a joke. Forgot the 😉
Razib, don’t be insulted. I didn’t mean it as an insult. When I don’t have time to click links you provide, I don’t try to refute them at the same time. I’m not THAT lazy. And the whole “taking us all for a ride” thing was a joke. Forgot the 😉
well, the time i do spend looking up precise numbers does exhuast my time, which isn’t copious, but
a) i think it is important to have precise numbers on hand when making arguments b) i am generally in a minority position here so just asserting won’t do (e.g., those who make fun of my nerdish preoccupation with numbers would no doubt laugh at me if i just robotically repeated ideological talking points)
i was irritated because i wasn’t asking you to look anything up, but just to offer up what % you perceive would be a boundary condition for “not too many.” i was going to do the checking.
And, I’d like to add, that I think this is an important topic. So, I don’t want to do any superficial research. This one’s going to require alot more probing. The Mutiny is my explorative research.
“i was irritated because i wasn’t asking you to look anything up, but just to offer up what % you perceive would be a boundary condition for “not too many.” “
Why don’t you offer a number? Why wait for what I think? If it confirms or denies my suspicions, you’re going to “check” anyways, so dish it out!
Why don’t you offer a number? Why wait for what I think?
“not too many ” = fewer than 1/2 of whites have a non-white friend and/or family member.
You think India is ‘where it’s all happening’ these days? How about the bottom 70% of the country which is going nowhere and has no way whatsoever to break into the system over there
1% of Indians are moving out of poverty every year according to the World Bank. What do you expect, everyone is going to become middle class overnight? And for someone who loves lassi, matter paneer and your beloved Punjabi culture, your attitude to India is rather, shall we say, dissonant? And white people are real nice, for people, who, according to you, have NO culture!