A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
don’t you know any whites who have grown up in majority minority areas???
Yes. My wife tells me that when her parents got seperated, she had to go and live with her poor aunt for a while who lived in a black majority area. She was the only white girl on the bus and got harassed and what not. I understand that and I am well aware of the fact that it happens. However I dont believe that it rises to the level either in magnitude or broader social climate that it warrants the growth which we are seeing in the white grievance industry in the US.
Al beruni
They will use all kinds of five dollar words to justify their position which basically reduces to the idea that there is a mysterious “hegemonic” force which always puts white folk in a 1-up position! This kind of gibberish is also used to justify the high rates of educational failure of inner-city children.
The term “white privilege” is the best term to use for this situation. it’s not a mysterious force, as another poster said, it’s history. It’s reality. I am 100% aware of this. This isn’t academic bullshit at all… it’s the vaguely elephant-shaped alien in the room no one really knows HOW to talk about, much less wants to.
Shruti Am I an elitist for being offended by Gwen Stefani and Madonna? Am I overanalyzing and overreacting if I think they have done us a great disservice by their exoticization? They’re the kinds of people that I was talking about earlier when I said “contempt.” There IS a line between a sincere appropriation, if there is such a thing, and exoticization. That is an excellent word for it. And don’t get me started on that Harajuku Girls 😉 I think your Bullshit Radar (you ought to patent that) does a pretty good job of figuring out what’s real and what’s superficial.
Gautham The difference is, America is supposed to be a country where racial status doesn’t matter, as nearly all of us are descended from immigrants…but supposedly, my parents came to america to avoid such racialized prejudices. Needless to say, I think it has been largely unsuccessful.
I agree with you entirely on this. Anyone coming to the US with the dream of boys and girls of all races, cultures and creeds holding hands and singing together has the same superficial view of the US as the American hippies smoking pot in Goa have of India because they think that India itself will make them a more spiritual person. I mean, the civil rights era happened while my mother was in high school! In the long view of history, that’s half an eyeblink. One trip to this country, to ANY city, will show that. We still self-segregate to a large extent. The term “black church” is used casually, with no regard to the fact that our CHURCHES ARE SEGREGATED. Hell, we even have separate mosques for Arabs, South Asians and African-Americans. Socioeconomic status is still largely tied to race. This isn’t the happy melting pot that we learned about in elementary school. The real United States is a place with a lot of racial problems, and I hope to make those better by my life, not worse.
Most of the racist people I have met don’t realize they are racist. They have just internalized the discourse around them to the extent that they can look down on the “Other” without even realizing it. There is your key statement : Racists DO NOT REALIZE that they ARE racist, or else they realize and they are proud of it. But I believe the turning point is when people realize their racism, condemn it, and start to move past it. Which is where I see Lisa, and where I see myself.
But if you said “Indian guys are all nerds” or “Asian girls are all shy and study a lot” it would be equally racist. But you probably wouldn’t get as many outraged looks. Same with “fat people all don’t take care of themselves” or “gay guys are all effeminate” or even “white people are all racists.” Generalizations are not part of intelligent discourse, independent of the subject. Yes, “Indian guys are all nerds” is a racist comment, based on superficial understanding of that cultural group, and obviously lack of contact with many Indians 🙂 And regardless of the number of outraged looks, the comment’s still outrageous, and logically flawed at that.
I always wonder about the reasons. You decline to give yours, and I won’t pry, but I often assume that the person in question is unsatisfied with their own background and trying very hard to find some other culture they can adopt to make up for it. I didn’t decline – I just had already written a long enough post, and this thread’s not about me anyway 😀 And you do have a very valid point here. Perhaps there is some truth in the “unsatisfied with your own background” comment, even for me, although I must say that this is not the reason I sing Hindi songs – not in the least. Americans do not have a culture; we have a MARKET. And I think that is one reason why you see so many hippies rushing to ashrams, so many WASPs doing yoga and decorating with feng shui. From my experience and those around me, white American culture is pretty empty. There is no sense of community, outside of churches and Amway and the mall the day after Thanksgiving. A lot of people are wont to look elsewhere for those things that ARE missing. Some people, including myself, have researched their own family background and attempted to re-capture things that may or may not have been family traditions from long ago; I speak a bit of Norwegian and am currently researching the Scottish clan that my husband belongs to. But for most of us, a lot of that is lost forever. People who have melted into the American melting pot are drowning, for lack of community and culture. I don’t blame anyone for their search for these things, awkward as it may be. And I don’t expect that anyone of other cultures we explore must welcome us with open arms, though it’s nice if that happens, and is more likely if we come with the knowledge of an infant instead of pretending we already know everything. Maybe this is the children paying for the sins of their fathers, and the appropriate punishment for centuries of oppression. But from a personal perspective, I hope we can move beyond oppression and disillusionment, colonialism and cynicism, towards something else, where there’s not cultural hegemony but harmony.
It’s the whole idea of being fascinated by an aspect of a culture vs. totally trying to exoticize and adopt it. So you sing in Hindi. Why would that necessitate wearing a sari? So you do both, why do you expect all Indian people to enjoy it? … For a generation that grew up listening almost exclusively to Lata Mangeshkar, I must say nearly no one can fill those shoes. At any rate, if you do it, you should do it an be happy. You shouldn’t do it thinking that if we don’t accept you we are “racist”.
I never said that people who do not enjoy my singing are racist. I do believe that some people who don’t even think I should deign to speak THEIR language are racist. You are imposing a double standard. If Americans feel weird about having to coexist with people of other races, they’re racist, but if Indians feel weird about having to coexist with people of other races, it’s not racist. How does this work again? And I do not expect everyone to enjoy it. I realize that some do, some don’t, and that’s their thing. I don’t like country music at all, and the rap I’ve heard from Indian artists (from India) has been laughable up until literally the last few months. That’s my tastes, and you may dig Toby Keith or Blazee, and that’s cool with me. I don’t think of anyone as less of a person because they like steel guitars. And I agree with you about Lataji…. that’s a level to which I aspire to attain, knowing I never will.
I wear sarees because at the parties where I sing, everyone else does too. I’m fashion-conscious. Why should I be the only one in an evening gown? 🙂 I have never worn sarees shopping at the store or going to work. What’s the point of that for me ?
Do I hold white people and Indian people to different standards? Sure. I’m probably guilty of liberal-Indian racism against white people. But I’ve acknowledged it. According to most of the posters on this thread, that makes it OK, just like Ms. Lerner. It’s a question of first acknowledging, then figuring out what to do about it. Acknowledging racism and then settling right back into it instead of struggling with it doesn’t solve anything.
No one is disputing the fact that it does happen. I am disputing the degree to which it happens.
Exoticization is superficial and blind. An example of this is how Japan has become ‘trendy’ and most people think there is nothing more to it than anime, sushi and Harajuku girls. Appreciation is deeper and long-lasting and also acknowledges negative aspects of a culture.
No one is disputing the fact that it does happen. I am disputing the degree to which it happens.
i will do some number crunching this weekend. this is a serious issue, as the % of non-hispanic whites keeps dropping majority minority situations will become more and more common. i have plenty of friends who grew up in california who are quite resentful of majority minority racism (in their case, usually asian). pretty soon every group can join in on the pity party!
It IS true that white American culture is pretty empty…I used to call it the ‘Madonna/Michael Jordan/McDonalds’ culture. Specifically it’s really Anglo culture which fits that description…other groups like Italian-Americans or Greek-Americans have more of a focus and identity, as well as a cultural heritage and defined traditions to draw upon.
It IS true that white American culture is pretty empty…I used to call it the ‘Madonna/Michael Jordan/McDonalds’ culture.
i don’t think that’s fair at all. white anglos no longer have pride in their culture because they find it racist and unseemly, and don’t crow about “look so & so scientist/artist/cultural figure is a white anglo!,” but they represent in Culture. go to an art show, or independent music store. check out high brown fiction. puleez. the nation and culture that white anglos created is great, in my opinion. brown americans shouldn’t it for granted, and with our high educational levels perhaps we should be a little deeper & reflective in our thinking on these issues. but perhaps not.
Gautham and Shruti,
RIGHT ON!!! You both were so articulate. I was impressed. And of course, you’re right about what you said about misappropriation. I wish I had more friends like you in real life. I get sick of dealing with Desi-uncletom-apologists! Honestly!
Specifically it’s really Anglo culture which fits that description…other groups like Italian-Americans or Greek-Americans have more of a focus and identity, as well as a cultural heritage and defined traditions to draw upon.
Same groups who not 100 years ago, were being discriminated against in the Good Old U.S. of A. for not being “white” or “American” enough. Coincidence ? I think not.
Also, the religion factor fits in well here. Italian, Irish and Greek Americans have generally had very strong ties to the Catholic or Orthodox churches, which as I mentioned above, is one of the very few communities white people have anymore. Most of the happy hippies who feel “drawn” to other cultures don’t even have this; for one reason or another, they have rejected organized religion and need to find something else to fill that need for community.
George Gershwin, Aaron Copland, Cole Porter, Edward Hopper, Tom Waits…if that ain’t white American culture then I don’t know what is.
is one of the very few communities white people have anymore. Most of the happy hippies who feel “drawn” to other cultures don’t even have this; for one reason or another, they have rejected organized religion and need to find something else to fill that need for community.
asian americans are the least religious and black americans the most religious of american ethnic groups. which has more “community?” i don’t think you can pin it on religion so strongly, though that is a factor.
but again, i reject the contention that anglo americans don’t have culture. it is american culture that they have, and those of you think it starts and stops at mcdonalds are missing out.
Oh please! Culture in North America and the U.K. IS white culture. No one calls it that, because it just IS. Do not even try to argue that there is lack of white culture in America… It’s just taken for granted because it is the majority culture – so strong and pervasive that it doesn’t even need a name. I thought only white supremacists try to argue that it’s “dissapearing” and needs to be preserved.
Most of the happy hippies who feel “drawn” to other cultures don’t even have this; for one reason or another, they have rejected organized religion and need to find something else to fill that need for community.
Or there parents didn’t have organized religion. Studies of the (very high) Jewish membership in 1960s and 1970s ISKCON demonstrated that – so they went in search of community. OTOH the “seeker” hippie found (finds) an overly organized cultural framework stifling and is more a free artist of herself.
i don’t think that’s fair at all. white anglos no longer have pride in their culture because they find it racist and unseemly, and don’t crow about “look so & so scientist/artist/cultural figure is a white anglo!,” but they represent in Culture.
It’s not really “okay” to bring that stuff up in this country. The white privilege we all grow up with butts against our collective guilt ABOUT that privilege (and the fear of losing that privilege!) in a lovely mix of cognitive dissonance that resonates across racial groups. Think of the following terms: Asian pride Black pride Gay pride Desi pride White pride
You hear Terms 1-4 in everyday conversation. Term #5 is hardly ever heard except on websites like Stormfront and in conversations such as this.
And I don’t feel some horrible omigod-i-am-so-reverse-discriminated because of this fact of language and connotation; the way things work here, Americans are so individualized, it doesn’t really matter. We can’t be proud of “the latest author who is one of us” because there’s not an “us.” The thought literally doesn’t materialize in the typical white-anglo head that Tom Cruise or Reese Witherspoon looks like us, albeit a lot hotter.
And this is part of what contributes to oppressive racism: We don’t notice that Barbie looks like us, and we’re producing Barbies in mass quantities. My husband’s cousins, who are half-Chinese, half-Anglo/French, notice that Barbie DOES NOT look like them, which leads to a sense of disconnect. In many cases, it is simply the lack of thought on this matter that perpetuates white privilege.
“”If Americans feel weird about having to coexist with people of other races, they’re racist, but if Indians feel weird about having to coexist with people of other races, it’s not racist. How does this work again?”” “Without realizing it, you’ve fallen into one of the very traps you seem to argue don’t exist. American is not a race. It is a nationality, and your description of it is one I have encountered my whole life, as in “Would you marry an American” or “What do the Americans think of Indian culture”. Notice the subtle equation of “white” and American, something that reinforces my point about white people having the dominant position in this country. Indian is both a nationality, and to some extent a race, depending on how you choose to view the whole North/South Dravidian, Pashtun, Mughal, Aryan mixture we have going on. At any rate, it’s an apples to oranges comparison.
I am just as American as you or any white person, whether I like it or not, because I was born here and I vote here and I went to school here. To be socially accepted I have adopted the cultural trappings of this society as part of my own identity, and while I agree with your comment about the lack of culture in America, I would argue that things like baseball, beer and bowling do constitute a modern American culture, even if it is a highly undesirable one. At any rate, they are part of the larger discourse and not racialized in any particular manner.”
Agreed. It is not reverse racism.
That’s not saying that reverse racism doesn’t exist. But really, what does reverse racism do? Not really anything. At the end of the day, a caucasian can go just about anywhere in America/Canada and have a multitude of safe havens, whereas a minority can not. That’s the white privelege.
And this is part of what contributes to oppressive racism: We don’t notice that Barbie looks like us, and we’re producing Barbies in mass quantities.
i don’t think it’s that’s oppressive. straight up, if minorities live in a country where the majority is race x, well, race x is normative. there’s an easy way to avoid this: don’t emigrate to a country where your a minority. yes, i get irritated sometimes when people talk about “flesh colored” bandaids, but it’s also funny.
in any case, no need to talk about “white pride,” talk about american pride, western pride. one can lionize the way of the WASP without racializing it. the period between 1850 and 1930 is not the sum of all whiteness.
Define community.
“The thought literally doesn’t materialize in the typical white-anglo head that Tom Cruise or Reese Witherspoon looks like us, albeit a lot hotter.”
That’s white privilege again. Just another thing that doesn’t have to be conciously thought about. I’m glad you at least recognize it. Most people do not, caucasian or otherwise.
First of all, thanks Siddhartha.
Then Andrea:
Exactly. Feeling guilty will just make you defensive and bitter, and this is what most white people end up doing when they’re forced to confront their privileges. It is not productive. Stay with me while I go moral on yo asses. Andrea, you are not the colonizer or slave master any more than I am the greedy kshatriya or princely state puppet, nor did we ask for the privileges we were born with. But we have them anyway, and we have to own them. We are not guilty, but we are responsible. If we inherit the privileges of our ancestors, we also inherit a responsibility to the descendents of those whom they dispossessed. You’re obviously not half-assing the singing thing out of some fetish, so it’s entirely possible for you to help change history by being one of many white Western people who engage with Indian culture in a way that reverses the wounds of imperialism, colonization and Orientalism. I’ll never get on my knees with my hands clasped in gratitude, like “Oh thank you Amreekan mem sahib! You have done us such a great service!” because, like I said, it’s what you should do anyway if you choose to engage with our culture at all.
As I mentioned before, the hierarchy, and therefore the racial and cultural dynamics are different in these cases. Euro-American appropriations of the constructs and processes of their colonies or imperial subjects illustrate a completely different power dynamic. Oppression is the operative, and it’s not exclusive to white polities. For example, the sinosization of Tibetian customs illustrates dynamics similar to European imperialism in light of China’s colonization and suppressive assimilation of Tibet.
One of my most beloved friends is this long and lanky redhead with freckles who fell in love with India and the sitar after going to his first sitar concert. He hid this from me at first; he must have known the red lights would go off in my head, like they rightly did. But I’ve heard him play and he’s beautiful. His emmersion in sitar culture has heightened his consciousness of exoticizers and other hippie posers, and he is now almost as critical of other indophile Westerners as I am. You conveyed a similar sentiment. This tells me 1) that you’re humble enough to recognize your privileges and 2) that you have invested yourself enough into your art to guard its integrity in very much the same ways us desis do.
So, what is the fine line in appropriation? Full respect. And full respect can only come from full understanding of the art and the context in which it exists. Full respect for the art in this way, even if you appropriate it in a way that directs it away from its origins, maintains the dignity of the people and place that developed the art. That’s all I’m asking, people.
On Nina Paley’s Ramayana: It definitely is an appropriation that takes it in a different direction than the popular Indian versions, but I like it because I find Nina’s understanding of Sita to be very refreshing. It’s the total opposite of what the typical white Western upper class 2nd Wave feminist would say, and that kind of racist philosophy has oppressed millions of Third World women for decades because it has, in a way, made white Western women the patriarchs of their own pet subjects: women of color.
I happen to know the evolution of stree dharma, and it’s a very complicated concept. I’d be surprised if Nina herself knows much about it, and could historically contextualize her work this way, but I can certainly appreciate her contribution. What I didn’t like was the assertion in her FAQs that the Ramayanas were “world literature” because that undermines the religious significance of the text to Indian people, and implies that they’re for everyone and their brother to appropriate. I should mention that in the early stages of nationalism (both Hindu and secular), before it got out of hand, a great number of Indian women played crucial roles in galvanizing the independence movement. Even today, women activists in India are reappropriating sati/savatri and stree dharma to empower the women of their communities (and Nina mentions this in her FAQs), but why don’t we hear of them? All these women throughout India’s history have played around with Hindu religious concepts in the same way that Nina has done with the Ramayana, but they did not have the privileges and agency that she has, and they have now been erased from our history and not recognized for what they are doing today.
So it’s not that I don’t appreciate Nina or have any intentions to cast a shadow on the good reception of her work; I just see it with a different perspective. I can’t help but think of her success as a result of the greater agency she has with all of her privileges, one of them simply being her detachment from most Indian womens’ burden of stree dharma.
whereas a minority can not
what do you mean? most of america is a safe place for me. i’ve driven/lived in the intermontate west, as white as can be, and me, brown as all that. and i live & breath.
On Nina Paley’s Ramayana: It definitely is an appropriation that takes it in a different direction than the popular Indian versions, but I like it because I find Nina’s understanding of Sita to be very refreshing.
Anyone: Where can one find this Ramayana? Is there a website? Thx.
“in any case, no need to talk about “white pride,” talk about american pride, western pride.”
Just read Barmaid’s recent entry on how she tried to be part of American pride and was told to “go home Palestinian”. We would just love to talk about American pride, etc, if everyone else would quit telling us to go home!!
“On September 11th, after I’d spent a morning and afternoon seated in abject horror on my parents’ couch unable to to tear myself away from the TV, I left the safety of the house — Lester and Sally begged me not to — with the feeling that I had to do something, anything to show my unwavering loyalty to a country that had sewn my family into its patchwork quilt, offering us nothing but opportunity and streets paved with asphalt that led us to better tomorrows. Fishing for keys in my purse with one hand and holding a $45 American flag in the other, a snarling, rabid man called me a “goddamn fucking Palestinian” and told me to go home. [I’ll leave out here that depending on who you are and what contextual point in history you are speaking from telling a Palestinian to go home can mean any number of things and focus instead on the fact that I’m just not Palestinian…] And this time I looked him straight in the eye and delivered a strong, snappy retort with the red-white-and-blue backing of our founding fathers secure in the threads of the nylon fabric in my right hand. But I knew, nestled into that moment, everything had changed: PC was out, patriotism was in, and in the rawness of that initial, numbing pain, you only got to be one or the other.”
And as far as being a safe place, maybe you’re extremely sheltered, but from what I’ve read from Abhi, Manish, Ennis’ and even Anna’s accounts, and from my own experience, sometimes it doesn’t feel so safe, when countless eyes are watching you just for getting on the subway to get to work. Or maybe you’re taking it too literally. Safety is much more than a physical idea.
I have a comment and a question. First of, I think it took lot of courage for Lisa Lerner to introspect her feelings and discuss with her friends and publish them for critique. What I wonder is: why did she choose to adopt an Indian baby in the first place? Is it the all-too-common urge among many liberals to go out of their way to “prove” that they practice what they say?
Did she have a deep desire to be “unique” and did not think through the consequences in her own psyche? Or was it just plain connection and love when she came across this baby’s picture from the adopting agency, as she claims. Honestly, I suspect it is either the first or second reason I mentioned above. I say this because, if it was the third reason, i.e. if she deeply loved the child from the beginning, then it would be easy to accept and get past her thoughts on how dark her daugther is. Case in point: I have two daughters, one lighter skin and other on darker side. (I am desi and I don’t claim to be liberal, color-blind, non-judgemental etc. I would just say I am practical, and react based on the norms of society). I did wonder about the darker skin of second child. but quickly got past that. Now I don’t see any difference and love them equally. My point is if you love someone deeply, any negative thoughts can be easily conquered and will dissipate completely. They won’t become “issues” that need to be discussed with friends and written about. Any comments ?
metric Culture in North America and the U.K. IS white culture. No one calls it that, because it just IS. Do not even try to argue that there is lack of white culture in America… It’s just taken for granted because it is the majority culture – so strong and pervasive that it doesn’t even need a name. I thought only white supremacists try to argue that it’s “dissapearing” and needs to be preserved.
Once again, you’re right and I’m screwing up my terminology. Sure, there is American culture : individualism, Christmas, Super Bowl, craft fairs in Texas with really adorable clothes for your three-year-old, barbecue, musicals, tubing on the Guadalupe, the constant bickering between Red Sox fans and Yankees fans, meatloaf, Meat Loaf (shudder), jazz, bluegrass… the list goes on and on.
What has become more prevalent and is the problem, I think, is the lack of Community rather than Culture. And a lot of this has been taken over by corporations, so that we are told how to act in society by McDonalds and Lexus, instead of by our parents and grandparents. Respect of tradition and elders is secondary to keeping up with the Joneses. Every culture has its good and bad points, but I think that the utter disappearance of communities in typical Anglo/American culture is what has people running for something different, something more than our sterilized bubbles we’ve created for ourselves.
Gautham Without realizing it, you’ve fallen into one of the very traps you seem to argue don’t exist. American is not a race. It is a nationality, and your description of it is one I have encountered my whole life, as in “Would you marry an American” or “What do the Americans think of Indian culture” Yes, you’re right, I’m using terminology wrong. From now on, I’ll use either white American or Anglo-American. I do recognize that you are American in nationality and Indian in ethnicity and that American is really not an ethnicity (although I see it used that way by Indians more than white Americans) … and that the complaints both you and I have about “American” culture can also easily be extended to any mostly-white, mostly-Anglo country as well.
And I agree about the America being a great place to be white, Christian and wealthy, otherwise expect problems… But we shouldn’t just leave it at that level of cynicism. It’s the same dilemma posed to liberals : America, love it or leave… how about changing it instead? Is that possible even ?
oops, sorry, that was to Metric… 🙁 maybe I should get some work done 😉
Actions speak louder than words. Immigration patterns of non-white, non-christian, poor individuals counter this claim. Of course (let’s be real), we non-white, non chritisans, poor (when we came) emigrated for the $$$, not “freedom” or “equality”
but we found enough freedom and equality to make money and be happy enough to stay. America is like democracy, the worst system except for all the rest.
Gautham,
Your views have nothing to do with your age. They’re well-articulated. I thought things were getting better in this country but 9/11 and the war in Iraq have made it more difficult. Actually, I remember right after 9/11 it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be, but I have noticed a gradual difference as the war in Iraq has ground on. The biggest thing is more stares. Also, my interactions with strangers, like the checkout person at the grocery store are a little awkward. It is very hard to determine for sure what is going on. Is the person just disgruntled with their minimum wage job with no benefits or is there something more going on that makes them less than cordial? I actually find where I work to be pretty comfortable. And no, one awkward interaction isn’t so bad, but the cumulative effect is a little discomfitting: at the toll booth, at the gas station, etc.. I have this discussion with my wife, who is also Indian, a lot. I’ve decided there is a gendered componant to this. It’s not a good time to be young, brown skinned male. However, more immigration from Mexico should solve the problem. Anyway, it depends where you live. NY, DC are much better than small town white America.
Word, maccacas.
life is tofu and culture is our marinade – thus spake hairy_d.
andrea
Recognizing the problems of majoritarianism in the US (mainstream culture sees itself as white and all others as different and perhaps weird) is very different from asserting that only whites can be racist in the USA. It is the latter that I am objecting to.
The phenomenon of elite non-whites, many of whom have risen far in the meritocratic “white” power structure of the west, pretending that they have the same marginalized status as bihari peasants or colombian share-croppers is at best laughable. Many of our interactors seem to fall into this category.
The phenomenon of elite non-whites, many of whom have risen far in the meritocratic “white” power structure of the west, pretending that they have the same marginalized status as bihari peasants or colombian share-croppers is at best laughable
grievances here seem predominantly psychological and the build up of subtle slights. if india is advancing and becoming more affluent, perhaps that is a good thing to encourage back-migration for those who can’t tolerate the structural biases that naturall emerge out of being a minority.
A non-white CAN be racist. But it won’t significantly affect the white population economically, the way that institutional racism does. Hell, I’d even argue that hillbilly racism doesn’t affect me, that much. It may hurt my feelings (or not), but it really does diddly-squat to my economic well-being (it may be a rep of what alot of people feel but cannot say). Institutional racism, on the other hand, has a huge impact on non-whites – socially, economically, politically, you name it. That’s what REALLY hurts.
Furthermore, as a caucasian, you have the born privilege of escaping to a huge number of safe havens that you have the privilege of entering. Why is that so hard to admit?
I don’t care what the majority culture is, either. I don’t mind to have a minority or individual culture, and nor do I feel the need to impose my culture on others. All I care is that the problems of racism are addressed and discussed, and solutions put forth that are real and meaningful.
“The phenomenon of elite non-whites, many of whom have risen far in the meritocratic “white” power structure of the west, pretending that they have the same marginalized status as bihari peasants or colombian share-croppers is at best laughable. Many of our interactors seem to fall into this category.”
This argument of “others have it worse, so don’t complain about your experience” really irks me. Yes, others may have it worse, but it doesn’t make my experience, or your experience less valid.
What exactly is subtle to you? If I called you sand ni**a, my guess is that you would both just laugh it off. Same thing if I told you to “Go Back Home” every day as a child, or beat you up and made Tribal jokes about you every day.
shit happened to me. but not everyday. i grew up in a 90%, 10%, black area. my elementary school was 95% white. my high school was 99.9% white.
what can explain the variance in our experience? are midwesterners way more racist than people in the northeast or intermontate west?
i mean 90% white.
Institutional racism, on the other hand, has a huge impact on non-whites – socially, economically, politically, you name it.
can you define institutional racism?
Yes, others may have it worse, but it doesn’t make my experience, or your experience less valid.
no, but it puts it in perspective.
btw, i know of white people who complain about being shut out of employment/VC funding in places like silicon valley because of the “south asian networks” which they are excluded from. booh-hoo-hoo to you too. this will happen more in the future, even if it is a minority exp.
No, I don’t think that would explain the variance. I think some people are more sensitive/perceptive to what’s going on around them, and others are less so. I wouldn’t dare call anyone paranoid, since there is valid statistical data that would support institutional racism and bias exists. It is a real concept. Furthermore, the number of attacks around 9/11 on brown people (muslim and non-muslim/arabic) and continuing to this day would also support that there is a real perceived threat. It’s not just subjective.
since there is valid statistical data that would support institutional racism and bias exists…Furthermore, the number of attacks around 9/11 on brown people
which data are you referring too? i have an idea, but i would like a precise cite if you could spare some time.
Hell yeah – that’s one of the reasons I feel compelled to do it, because I can. In Trivandrum I became incredibly aware of my priveledges as a middle-class American: education, technology, and a degree of female empowerment I’d taken for granted until I lived in India. I’m lucky to have the skills and resources I do, and I’m damn well going to use them. I also emphasize I’m using my voice, and not speaking for Indian women, or anyone else. What I’m making is not a Ramayana, it’s an American story about an American woman who read the Ramayana. That’s not yet clear in the clips I’ve posted online (although Sita’s singing voice — Annette Hanshaw — is as American as can be), but will be very clear in the finished film. But I’m not posting any more clips now because I don’t want the whole thing online before it’s released. It is time for me to change my FAQ, to better reflect the real frequently-asked-questions I’ve gotten over the past year.
metric ,
the level of tormenting that guatham points too seems beyond the level of sensitivity variation. he said:
“Same thing if I told you to “Go Back Home” every day as a child, or beat you up and made Tribal jokes about you every day.”
there were two times when people picked a fight with me because of my race. one time i made sure that a bunch of my friends were there to people the pussy to a pulp. the second time it turned into a major league melee. i notice that stuff. as for taunting me, that was why i got into the first fight, no more taunts. and you can always taunt back at the slack-jawed animals that engage in this sort of sport.
“people the pussy to a pulp”, meant “beat.”
Oh, and by American I mean American, not Whitey. Sorry, racists, I ain’t coppin’ to that shit.
heh. heh. it’s in these fields where race and natioanlity issues get really intersting. since the world is changing so dramatically, many of the points being made here will be outdated soon, as one can see if they look to the most cutting edge industries.
americans dominate the vc field globally. asians are way overrepresented in american vc firms. blacks are virtually non-existent.
at the end of the day, you’re judged by how well your fund does.
Sometimes I wonder if I’m delusional for only having experienced two instances of racism in a town that is 90-98% white, and none of these were overt! Either I’m supressing memories, or I’ve truly sold my soul to white man!
Sometimes I wonder if I’m delusional for only having experienced two instances of racism in a town that is 90-98% white, and none of these were overt! Either I’m supressing memories, or I’ve truly sold my soul to white man!
this isn’t a come on-are you good looking? i think good looking minorities get less crap, especially females.
btw, black conservative john mcwhorter has talked about having the same experience as you in his newest book winning the race. he can’t understand where the ‘black rage’ of the middle class is coming from. there is a chasm in perception going on, though if guatham is getting beaten up every day, that demands explanation. i don’t recall a fist in my face every morning.
p.s. there was a third time someone called me a sand n*gger on the way to school. did it again the next day. the third day i made three of hold him down while i stepped on his face. delicious it was.
Speaking to cultural appropriation:
When I was 8, my parents put me in an Indian dance class. It was run by aunties teaching in their basement while gossiping with the student’s moms (mine never came :() and teaching us everything from filmy to folk to bharat natyam. My friends and I had a blast and I loved dancing on stage, but never appreciated the art of dance.
During college, I took up the study of Kathak. I have been studying Kathak dance for the last 10 years. Through it, I have learned grace, dignity, respect, understanding of gharanas, tyari, lyakari, khubsurti, nazakat. I have learned the value of tradition, discipline and sadhana. I have learned about the connections of music with folklore, hindu/muslim tradtions, story-telling without words and the idea of what it means to have a Guru.
PS, my teacher is a White-American woman from California. She is not a hippie. She has devoted 30 years to the dance and taught me more about Kathak/Discipline/Art than any of those Aunties. Honestly, when I think about it, I feel that people who take on such tradtion with enthusiasm (to the extent that she has preserved an otherwise dwindling art form in our area– everyone knows Bharat Natyam dominates the IA community–how many arengetrams have you been to lately??) should be allowed and lauded (if indeed they are doing it well). If an Indian does it, great, but if a white person does it, does that make them not worthy of respect? I have seen the blatent disregard of her skills due to the color of her skin, not having anything to do with her actual skill. This too, by our own brown folk.
Kathak as a dance form has evolved from wandering story-tellers, to the Muslim Courts, to the Baiji Quarters, and now back on the world stage. If people had not picked it up and evolved with it, would it be where we are today? How can we hold these cultural traditions so tightly when they have come to us through “appropriation?”
Amazing how divergent our experiences are growing up as a minority. Mine were like meena’s and razib’s…racism was pretty much a non-factor. I mean, we can debate over “subtle raciam” or whether or not gwen stefani is dissing us, but guatham’s experience is quite clear.
I think we’re all being real here and no one is being “paranoid” or “internalizing racism so they don’t see it” or making stuff up for that matter.
I guess the lesson is that you can’t univeralize the personal.
one reason i am rather sanguine about anti-brown racism is the amount has decreased in the 25 years i’ve lived in this country. i didn’t exp. anything after 9/11 despite having a “muslim name” and a brown face. i’d like to see statistics on the extant of anti-brown hate crimes and crank some conditional probabilities to compare problems in regards to violence….
Also, I would like to add that I met a friend from Bombay who was also a dancer. Tap, Jazz, Modern. Do we chastize her for not holding on to the Indian tradition? India is changing beyond anyone’s realm, someone better hold on to the cultural traditions.
meenakshi,
hold up already. you’re cramping on the hand-wring and belly-aching 🙂
PS, my teacher is a White-American woman from California.
George Arundale is one of the shapers of modern Bharatnatyam as a “high art” form. He was married to Rukmani, a Tamil.
India is changing beyond anyone’s realm, someone better hold on to the cultural traditions.
So is the USA. The “anglo” population is dropping as it never has before. And I suspect that our idea of racism and indeed, what it means to be an “American,” will get all the more complex as a result.