A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
Gabe and Gautham, thanks for your comments … hope you’re not away permanently 🙂
I am speaking from the point of view of a white girl who grew up in Texas her whole life, and has lived around racism of many different kinds, the most insidious being the kind where people ACT racist but won’t talk about it. In my humblest of opinions, I think that a person stops being racist when they become conscious of their racism and at least start on the path towards recognizing and appreciating differences, instead continuing to:
a)outright hate other people because of their race/ethnicity/religion/culture, b)try to mold others into their (white european) image a la colonialism c)comfortably live in their consciously or unconsciously developed worldview that white people are superior to others.
Any or all of the above things, to me, make a racist. I don’t deny white privilege, male privilege or straight privilege. These things are still HUGE problems, and I try to stay conscious of it. And you don’t go from racist to un-racist overnight, but it really doesn’t seem fair to call this lady a racist because she’s still in a process of figuring all this stuff out. It’s taking all the mental gymnastics that she’s had to do and completely negating them, implying that they are worthless and she might as well send her baby back, grab her white sheet and go join the Klan. Words do have power, and it’s really not fair to lump all white people together as “racist until proven otherwise.”
Colorblindness is a fantasy that people like indulging in, especially white people because that way we don’t have to think of the sins of our fathers – we get to start at square one and say we’re all equal, although there’s a lot of cleaning up to do for the years of exploitation. But how to begin? And how much guilt should we shoulder? And is adopting a baby that doesn’t look like us expiation of the guilt, or expression thereof, or both or neither?
I don’t think the goal is colorblindness, but mutual learning and admiration, and recognizing differences but not seeing them as really all that much of a barrier. That’s the mark of “not being racist,” just as Gautham said above but in a different way.. it’s understanding and appreciation without uncomfortableness. But it’s a process, going to one from another, not a quantum leap, especially for those of us who were brought up socialized in what really is a very racist system.
But I think EVERYONE is socialized into a racist system, just different racist systems. I’m pretty much the whitest white girl you’ve ever met, but I speak Hindi and I sing desi songs at Indian weddings. How does that make you feel – gut reaction ? A lot of people think it’s “cute,” and others are offended that I’m “stealing their culture.” Isn’t that racism too ? Is that a more noble racism because I’m the ‘majority’ ? It’s complicated how I got here, but I’m here… and many people are okay with it, some are still working through the “omg she’s white and she’s wearing a saree” thing, and some think it’s absolutely intolerable and refuse to even hear my story. I think “absolutely intolerable” is racist, the ones confused when I come out wearing desi clothes are in that same process that Lisa is, only reversed, and the “it’s ok as long as she sings well” crowd are the ones who are open and accepting… and in my life, I hope to be open and accepting in the same way as I’ve been accepted by these people.
I’m not trying to be the white jerk on the thread… just trying to point out that the issue is complicated, words like “racist” have deeper connotations than what they are on the surface, and that we all live in process, not in disparate states. If any of us thinks hard enough, we’ll find instances where we’ve judged people superficially in many areas…none of us fall entirely on one end or the other of the continuum of racism. The important thing is that we are making progress towards less racism and more inclusivity, more building a mosaic and not forcing a melting pot, and as our selves progress, so will our society.
Shazam,
Firstly, it may be worthwhile to lay off Razib. He’s not right 100% of the time — and I’ve disagreed with him myself on a couple of occasions with regards to ethnically-focused discussions involving Indians/South Asians — but he’s a very good guy and does not deserve such vitriol or sarcasm. There are ways of making one’s objections known without resorting to excessive sarcasm or withering personal attacks. I think there may just be some crossed-wires here with regards to your assumptions about Razib’s personality and intentions.
Secondly, perhaps it would be beneficial for you to clarify exactly where in India your ancestry lies. This would enable other commenters on SM to put your own viewpoint into its proper context. Thank you.
Razib,
Speaking from personal experience, there are a lot of people of Caribbean and African origin here in the UK. The latter in particular consists of an extensive contingent of 1st & 2nd Generation Nigerians, with a smaller number of Ghanaians etc. It’s interesting to actually ask them how they perceive desis ethnically; it probably depends on the physical appearance of the person doing the asking, although given the Latin appearance of a disproportionate number of British desis (predominantly Punjabi and Pakistani as we’ve discussed before, along with the way many Gujaratis here also look), the average British black person (especially if he/she is African) regards it as ridiculous for such individuals to even consider identifying themselves as “black”. I’ve chatted to Nigerians here about this and they tend to view the average British Northie as “white” — albeit in a general vague ethnic sense, not in the literal European sense of the term.
Again, this is obviously strongly influenced by the fact that the average British desi is not representative of the Indian subcontinent as a whole (based on regional origin, genetics, and the British climate, again as we’ve previously discussed) and is a hell of a lot closer to the “Bollywood stereotype” than the average Indian “back home”. I would say that African/Caribbean people have somewhat different views about the latter. My previous paragraph also does not apply to their views on the (much) smaller British population of South Indians and Sri Lankans.
On a slightly humorous and off-topic note, Indian films are very popular in Nigeria. You would not believe how many young Nigerian women there are here in the UK who had huge crushes on Amitabh Bachchan when they were younger (and they’ve all seen Sholay too). I wonder if Big B is even aware of this 😉
Razib, PS:
…..Bearing in mind that a very large number of British desis look far closer to Oded Fehr (the terrorist leader “Farik” from Sleeper Cell) than Naveen Andrews, for example.
This is mentioned purely for clarification, before someone here starts shaking her fist at me again and accusing me of “self-congratulatory” behaviour etc etc 😉
The most ironic thing, as someone on SM previously said (probably Razib), is that if Africans had gone around aggressively colonising the rest of the world instead of Europeans, several things would no doubt occur:
Everyone would indeed be trying to claim some ancient historical, ancestral ethnic link to Africa (“African Invasion Theory”, anyone ?).
People of European extraction would be trying to make themselves as dark as possible, along with curling their hair etc (okay, I know that many white women do that already, albeit for different reasons).
Desi aunties would be heard exclaiming “Pinky ! Get back in the sun ! We can’t have you fading too much ! If you end up too pale, nobody will want to marry you !”
Bipasha Basu and Nandita Das would be the reigning queens of Bollywood, and people would be heard commenting how nice it is that actresses like Aishwarya Rai, Kareena Kapoor and Preity Zinta are finally getting a decent break in Indian films, even though it is predominantly as “exotic” item-number dancers or “unconventionally beautiful, dangerous temptresses” rather than out-and-out lead romantic roles.
😉
Andrea:
The term “internalized racism” in your comment is contextualized to mean one person’s malevolent racism towards an Other, but it actually refers to when one is racist towards oneself.
As a desi brown girl from California, I’d like to say that I’ve seen the kind of racism (particularly in liberals and hippies) where perverse fetishes for people and things of non-white races or other non-Euro-American things, are masked as genuine interest and anti-Eurocentrism and therefore expect full acceptance and praise from everyone. It’s as it us brown folk should feel validated by any kind of non-hostile attention from the white West. And these are all very nice people who think they’re down with the brown, but most of us know it’s macaca shit.
Colorblindness is blindness to the racism that already exists. Coming out and saying “yes, I was concerned about my skin color,” is not in itself a racist statement, but the reason she was saying it was racist. Look deeper. Speaking of deeper…
That’s waaay too cut and dry. Like I indicated above, I’ve seen outright and inexcusable racism in some of the most sincerely caring and polite people I know. I still think they are good people, just as I’m sure this Lisa Lerner is, but they are still racist. Please let’s not look at racism as simply a matter of malevolence or a superiority complex. How about d) refusing to deconstruct your ideas of yourself and the Other, both negative and positive, to find the root of your perceptions and imaginations? or e) being irresponsible with your access to other cultures whose people don’t have as much privilege and agency as you do due to race? Or how about f) refusing to recognize the historical cultural and institutional racism that sociologically (not biologically, of course) places you in an inherently higher position than others? In other words, refusing to recognize your privileges.
With those three additions in mind, I’d like to address these questions:
I would at first have the same uneasy feeling as I do about all non-Indian people saying or practicing something that comes from my culture. If I played African drums or trained as a geisha I would not feel at all offended that African or Japanese people judged me more carefully than a heritage practitioner before accepting me. After all, from where else would my beloved arts have come from and to which other people would I owe thanks for the opportunity to experience them? I didn’t just pull them out of my ass, right?
The (intelligent and understandable) question is not related to any hate for a racial or cultural outsider, it’s a concern for the quality and direction of the appropriation. Face it, no matter who you are, when you intrepret a tradition, you are inherently and inadvertently appropriating it. Given the nature and the consequences of first the British (mis)appropriation of Indian cultural constructs and processes during imperialism/colonization and later on the hippies’ go at it from the ’60s onwards, can you really blame us for our hesitation to roll out the welcome mat?
Please understand that this does not mean I support people who are malevolent towards you just because you are a white person taking part in Indian cultural practices. I’ve seen amazing Indian art done by white and other non-Indian people. Their integrity can be seen in the quality of the art. Take my white prof teaching a class on religious traditions of India, for example. Nowadays scholars of Eastern societies (minus those in politics) are of postcolonial/postmodern schools, so I wasn’t too worried, but as a matter of duty to culture, I still weighed every word she said to check her methodology. I’m happy to say that I’ve come to like her and her work very much. I know there will be assholes who will not give you the credit you deserve for your craft, and I deplore that. But the initial cautiousness and uneasiness to accept someone who you know is sociopolitically more powerful because of his/her race, is understandable. (Yes, sociopolitics play a role at every level of society.) And it is different from the cautiousness and uneasiness that one would feel in accepting someone they know is sociopolitically less powerful because of his/her race (such as the case of Lisa Lerner adopting a baby whose color is considered inferior in Lerner’s world). The hieararchy in that situation is turned upside down, and has a whole different set of dynamics which we shouldn’t confuse with the former situation.
Shazam, regarding Japanese tourists that is most definitely not true. Japanese are to be found everywhere(I don’t mean this in a bad way), and I’ve seen the tourists even in the remotest of South Indian temples.
I don’t know any Japanese personally and I have never been to the country(though most def it’s very high on my priority list!), so I can’t speak for whether the same prejudices from 1940 are still ingrained in the current generation.
you can’t make this stuff up.
Gautham, Surely you jest. You MUST MUST MUST get thy young self to rent Breakfast Club (to start off with). Look out for Anthony Michael Hall’s “I’ve laid lots of times” and the intersections of class, gender, and 80’s brat-pack fun! Its the perfect end-of-the-week pick me up!! 🙂
I have an anecdote, I knew an Indian man working in the US, just come from India. He actually made an effort to watch basketball games, watch the latest episode of friends, etc.. just so he could talk about whether monica is dating chandler or joey intelligently the next day. Not everyone does this, but the pressure is there.
Talking about ‘Friends’ is a gateway to ridicule and not acceptance.
Shruti:
I think your answer to Andrea was ridiculous. If she enjoys Indian culture, then GREAT! Let her. You’re no guardian of Indian culture to monitor other peoples’ ‘appropriation’ as you put it. It doesn’t need the kind of intense analysis you’re giving it, nor the coldness to someone who bothered to write a whole long post about her feelings on the subject. If you don’t like it (a white girl singing Indian songs, wearing Indian clothes, being attracted to our celebrations, etc), ignore it… I personally am not very happy about what Nina Paley is doing with the Ramayan so after an initial cursory glance at her website, I just leave it alone (these are risky comments to make here since now all her numerous supporters are likely to get upset with me). Nina has found her own inspiration in that story and I don’t begrudge her that. I still have other versions (Valmiki, Tulsi Das) to refer to if I feel like perusing a Ramayan which is more to my tastes, or more a reflection of what I perceive my culture to be. And as for you, Andrea…continue doing what you enjoy. At least you have learnt Hindi, when so many Indians are trying to forget their own tongues.
andrea
I am afraid that you will find that there some well-educated folk who subscribe to theories of “inherent racism of white people” etc. They will use all kinds of five dollar words to justify their position which basically reduces to the idea that there is a mysterious “hegemonic” force which always puts white folk in a 1-up position! This kind of gibberish is also used to justify the high rates of educational failure of inner-city children. Also it doesn’t matter if you learn hindi or other indian culture stuff, its all “appropriation” or something bad !
My own take on this is that these attitudes are a form of racism and prejudice. They bring to mind various bizarre racist theories about the irish, chinese, jews, whatever from the past. Just because there are forms of racism and prejudice prevalent today, doesnt mean that any crazy theory about them is correct.
As a indian immigrant to the US married to a european-origin woman, here are the forms of racism/prejudice I have encountered over the last 20 years (in order of importance).
(1) Gender prejudice from all folk towards my wife, who is an educated professional (2) Racial prejudice from other indian immigrants as I have “broken ranks” and married out. Sometimes this has taken the form of direct racial comment about my wife. (3) Subtle forms of “liberal” racism from americans towards me or my culture (One guy once assurred me that I was light-skinned enough to pass, other folks feel that they must praise indian culture when I am around etc.)
So you decide what the reality is vs. toxic academic theories about race and identity.
I once saw dinesh’s wife years ago. really hot. and her name is Dixie.
you can’t make this stuff up.
Lol!
You too “brownz,” can have your very own Dixie if you work hard, don’t make too much trouble, denigrate AA recipients and support free trade!
Hail Ponoo-ru!
Al Beruni, I agree with the following that you said 100%.
Not risky – what you say is exactly what I think. I understand what I’m doing is (unfortunately and unintentionally) distatesteful and/or offensive to many, but I also know it is just one tiny drop in the ocean of Ramayana interpretations, and takes nothing away from the many versions that already exist and continue to be created. No need to look at mine when there are so many others. Thank you – I mean that sincerely.
I am afraid that you will find that there some well-educated folk who subscribe to theories of “inherent racism of white people” etc.
Whiteness studies, which is incidentally a burgeoning field (the most popular freshman course at Princeton, for example) is largely a white project, though figures like James Balswin are used extensively in syllabi. It’s whites in a self-reflective critical mode, not only of individual behavior, but of American historiography, which they claim elides a lot of American negatives and the role of white privilege in the nation, and it’s not particularly post-modernist from what little I’ve read. Desis are simply jumping on to the work, they’re not creating it (yet, anyway).
My comment was not a personal attack, it was a theorhetical reply to a general theme in Andrea’s comments. How can I express disdain if I’ve never heard her sing? Besides, I wouldn’t tell her she couldn’t or should’t do it even if I didn’t like her singing. I don’t tell anyone what to do, but I have every right to feel what I feel, especially when there are culture/identity issues involved.
Like I said, we appropriate every time we practice a tradition. Every time my mother does Parvati puja, she’s appropriating a Hindu tradition by how she does it and what she believes about it. It’s not inherently a good or bad thing. I’m not a “guardian” of Indian culture or here to “monitor” anyone any more than any other desi here who has expressed disdain about a Western appropriation of South Asian culture. Am I an elitist for being offended by Gwen Stefani and Madonna? Am I overanalyzing and overreacting if I think they have done us a great disservice by their exoticization? If so, then aren’t the mutinywallas themselves guilty of the same in their April Fools joke? I mean, that is, after all, a judgement on what is an acceptable appropriation of Indian Culture and what isn’t. All I was trying to say was that our fear of misappropriation is not unfounded… and I can go back much further than Madonna and April Fools, all the way into the Raj, to prove it.
Whoever you are, do what you gotta do. Sensible people have what I like to call TheBullshitRadar, and it goes off if you’re whack and doesn’t when you’re legit. Very scientific explaination, I know, but it works.
it ain’t no mystery. it’s called history.
more to the point: shruti, right on for saying what you said and doing so in a frank and thoughtful manner. if we can’t talk about appropriation issues here, then where the hell can we? people who read your comment in its entirety will have recognized that a/ it wasn’t an attack on andrea, and b/ there is plenty of room in your world for non-desis doing desi art, etc.
the problem with talking about these things as generalities is that it prevents us from considering the journey that takes someone into doing art or living life in ways that are commonly associated by (and indeed claimed by) “other” cultures. the journey can be damn shallow (hello, madge), or it can be damn deep. as andrea says: “It’s complicated how I got here, but I’m here…,” and that is the key to her comment. she is referring to her journey, and i would not be surprised if it were a deep and fascinating story. nor am i asking her to tell it. i respect that it exists, and i choose to believe that it is powerful.
likewise, shruti suggests that her religious studies professor’s journey was deep. one professor i had way back in the day was diana eck, montana-raised white woman who became a big-time scholar of hinduism and one of the world’s foremost experts on varanasi. one deep sister.
both andrea’s and nina’s comments manifest the understanding that the art they make is problematic alongside the testimonial that it is authentic (i.e., authentically from their hearts, authentically felt by them). kudos to both for saying so. shruti recognizes as much, and engages on that basis. it’s problematic, so let’s talk about it. as i said before, if we can’t talk about it here, then where else?
I am not ridiculing Satya Sai baba but his devotees who make extra-ordinary claims. Thats why I gave another example of “devotees” who were drinking seawater. And who can forget that Ganeshji were drinking milk :-)))
My initials can mean whatever you want them to mean.
Shruti
Academic theories are carefully scoped and a lot of effort is taken to characterize the historical and geographical context. Using them in “real-life” is not trivial; you can easily end up creating a kind of “pop version” which is a caricature of the original work.
Discussions of race and identity are especially prone to this sort of confusion. From the academic fact that some differences can be found in DNA of different “races”, one can reach easily spin theories about differences in abilities of various races.
Some really great comments on this one. I would like to add my 2 annas…. 1. The south Bombay brats are without doubt the most obnoxious people on this earth. Nobody-not the neo nazis or the KKK can come close to them in arrogance and classism.
Racism is everywhere. Look on the positive side. Indra Nooyi made CEO beating out so many white boyz on the executive team. How’s that for feeling good!
Indians have been oppressed by all and sundry for centuries. First the Mughals carried out genocide rapidly exterminating Hindus when and where they could. Next came the Brits who treated us worse than animals. “No dogs and Indians allowed”. PEACE
Gautham
IMHO, this is a straightforward racist statement. Here are some other variations: due to various historical facts, jews are inherently cleverer than other communities and hence….. Here is another variant: Only hindus can be communal (sectarian) in india because they are the majority community.
Do you agree with these statements?
al beruni with all due respect. Sure everyone is racist BUT then don’t adopt and then screw up a child’s life when you cannot overcome your inherent racism.
Nina P., you have a great attitude and you do wonderful work.
Keep at it.
First, when I see white people trying very hard to integrate themselves into Indian culture, I do a double take, like many people. I always wonder about the reasons. You decline to give yours, and I won’t pry, but I often assume that the person in question is unsatisfied with their own background and trying very hard to find some other culture they can adopt to make up for it.
Yes, very many Americans – Christians and Jews – embraced Indian culture because they were prodoundly dissatisfied with American culture, especially in the 1950s and 1960s. I have a freind who is now a practicing Hindu and a professor of religious studies who went to India in the manner of the hippie because he was dissatisfied with what he called the rigidity of his Catholic upbringing, became a monk for a few years, learned that not everything was so perfect in India and came home, his understanding much deeper than when he left, deeper than mine could ever be.
Indian cultural inputs were part of the fabric of the American counterculture, and persist to this day in the preference among the iconclasts for vegetarianism, a multi-dimensional approach to spirituality, yoga and what have you. I don’t see that as necessarily negative. Desis get perturbed with the emergent, because the cultural inputs transformed bear no resemblance to the types of things their mothers do at home, and to them it immediately becomes something inauthentic. The other problem is that the icons of Indian culture became commercialized, and were used in (to the desis) offensive ways.
I am not dismissing the fact that some westerners went to India to exploit, (Naipaul says Kipling was there for sex with young boys), just that behind every engagement there is a story.
desidood
Huh? And therefore only white people can be racist in america? I still dont get it.
al beruni I understand that you have a personal reason to be an apologist for white behaviour. White, black, brown or purple. If you cannot overcome your prejudices don’t go around screwing up other’s lives. That’s all.
Shruti: I really like your additions to my list… i wrote mine at 1 am after a very long day, and after a long look, I was collapsing your d) e) and f) into my c) 🙂 This conversation is digging really deep, and I’m learning a lot.
f) refusing to recognize the historical cultural and institutional racism that sociologically (not biologically, of course) places you in an inherently higher position than others? In other words, refusing to recognize your privileges. This is a big sticky one. It is one thing to recognize, but another to do something about it. And in a lot of ways, you see white people compensating or over-compensating as the case may be, out of a sense of collective guilt. I don’t think that really does any good … but what DOES get closer to solving the problem ? It is something I think about a lot, and I believe that the only way to get around it is not to compensate for my position out of guilt, but to try to level the playing field in the best ways I know how, and most importantly, to raise my future children in a way where they understand the privilege they will have from having white skin, and still feel entitled to nothing. Any suggestions or improvements on this are greatly appreciated :]
I would at first have the same uneasy feeling as I do about all non-Indian people saying or practicing something that comes from my culture. If I played African drums or trained as a geisha I would not feel at all offended that African or Japanese people judged me more carefully than a heritage practitioner before accepting me. After all, from where else would my beloved arts have come from and to which other people would I owe thanks for the opportunity to experience them? I didn’t just pull them out of my ass, right?
I do accept this, and it pushes me to work harder at my music than I ever did when I was singing Western classical music or even jazz (which is ALSO appropriation of a cultural art form!) My webpage motto translates to “the context trumps the concept,” an idea that is hard to stand by, but is very necessary.
Face it, no matter who you are, when you intrepret a tradition, you are inherently and inadvertently appropriating it. This means that Chinese violinists, some of the best and most talented in the world, are appropriating classical music from European culture. Mexicans are appropriating West Indian culture through reggaeton. Japanese salsa dancers are appropriating Latin American art forms. Yet very few people would raise their eyebrows at any of these situations.
Given the nature and the consequences of first the British (mis)appropriation of Indian cultural constructs and processes during imperialism/colonization and later on the hippies’ go at it from the ’60s onwards, can you really blame us for our hesitation to roll out the welcome mat? No, I don’t blame anyone for that. But it doesn’t mean that I should just slink out of this world I’m in, tail between my legs, and go sing English songs that I’m not as good at simply because I don’t have Indian parents. And I have a lot of the same contempt you do for the 60s hippies who have appropriated your culture in the most tacky of ways, who go about things without understanding, or even TRYING to understand, where it came from and why it isn’t right for them to take it as their own. (I have another big thought about WHY the hippies go about doing that, but that’s for another post.) But again, I have to ask : what, to you, is the limit of appropriation that is acceptable and when does it become unacceptable? If any amount of cultural appropriation is unacceptable, we might as well not bother to explore and understand other cultures at all, which seems to me antithetical to trying to get rid of racism in this world.
Everytime I comment to a topic it seems to ensure a 200+ debate…
Anyway, I like seeing all the different opinions, but I’m a bit disheartened that everyone who acknowledges racism is being tacked with the the “bitter” and “angry” label. I’m sure the majority of people here don’t go around looking for racism wherever it may be found. And I’m sure they hang out with white people too… though I don’t doubt that they have different standards of what their white friends can say or do around them without lecture. I realized a long time ago that I couldn’t expect everything I wanted out of my white friends and still have white friends. I realize most of them mean well, but the backhanded comments (“oh, youre the only pretty black girl ive seen in real life” “Wow, you go to an Ivy league school????!” and the one I get the most from older generations of white people, the classic “My, you speak SO well!”) still irritate me.
As for appropriation… I was going to come and comment on that exact point, but Shruti beat me to it, and I’m glad. I personally hate it when I see certain aspects of african american culture get appropriated by other groups who then go on to disassociate themselves heavily with black people. Think hip hop… not mainstream crap, but hip hop. Or even on a smaller level, I dislike it when new ethnic greek orgs appropriate black greek customs… but then don’t associate with the black greeks on their campus… which just goes to say that any ethnic group can appropriate another groups culture. It does have an extra twinge to it when its the majority “colonizing” yet another minority ethnic practice…
i forgot, besides coulter and dixie, he was engaged to Laura Ingraham. lots of talent there, and smart.
as far as “don’t make too much trouble” goes, the poor guy almost got kicked out of darthmouth for his conservative beliefs. he was fighting the good fight in the 80’s, b/f it was easy, b/f clinton came along and made free trade and welfare reform virtually universally accepted.
give the bro some credit for speaking truth to power.
desidood
Good luck in your imaginary world. It must be nice to be so certain about everything!
Huh? And therefore only white people can be racist in america? I still dont get it.
If I was racist against white males and worked in a high profile law firm, my racism wont amount to diddly-squat. If the white dudes were however racist against Macacas, my life would become a living hell. So I am sure that there are some hate mongers in the American Chinese Ughur community, but should we really care?
There’s nothing funnier than white people in America complaining about discrimination. I love it. Notice how their strongest defenders always tend to be the people married to white spouses. Coincidence?
Do you have some evidence for that beyond Dinesh D’Souza. My spouse is white, I know a lot of desis with white spouses and I am yet to see the desi spouse become a shrill for ‘discrimination against whites’.
Gautham: I guess you are insinuating that the white apologists somehow end up marrying white people. Your assertion is of course ridiculous and insulting. FYI most whites who marry desis tend to be themselves pretty liberal on social issues and will not subscribe to the ‘white man being oppressed’ theories.
So I am sure that there are some hate mongers in the American Chinese Ughur community, but should we really care?
the chinese community in san francisco tried to get brown small business persons disqualified as “asian american” in the situation of government contracts. also, the boss my father complains about being most “racist” against him (don’t know whether it is true or not) is a filipino, not the whites. if you had white underlings and you were racist against them at a law firm, it sure as hell would effect them, and there’s something to be said for general well being of other human beings and civility in society (your racism might not be blatant cuz you are scared of what the white partners will say, but Leftists like to talk about subtle racism all the time, so why not the other way?).
Notice how their strongest defenders always tend to be the people married to white spouses. Coincidence?
so what? they’re our people. we mix our blood with them, so why would those of us with personal connections that matter to us more than anything else in the world stand by and not speak up?
Al Mujahid for debauchery
No surprises here. Folks with attitudes like Gautham are basically reverse racists: whitey dissed me and put me down, and therefore so should I.
In this view, diluting south asian blood with other riff-raff is a bad thing and “naturally” leads to uncle tomsism. Unsurprisingly, this is exactly the position of chauvinists from all cultures.
also, the boss my father complains about being most “racist” against him (don’t know whether it is true or not) is a filipino, not the whites
I am not talking about the hate mongering by minorities in general but about racism by minorities against the majority people. At the institutional level, it will amount to nothing. At a personal level, it very well might hurt some individual members of the majority community in some cases but in the bigger scheme of things and all that racism entails, the social consequences of minority racism against the majority would not amount to anything.
the social consequences of minority racism against the majority would not amount to anything.
i believe they do. it leads to incivility, and further antagonism in a multiracial society.
to give a historical example, the jewish tax farmers of eastern europe obviously disdained the slavic peasants with whom their interacted. ‘traditional’ ashkenazi clothing is actually modelled on the dress of the polish aristocracy of the 17th century. even though the jews were the subjects of pogroms and prejudice, you can’t tell me that some of the vemon was not due to the jewish attitude towards the “dirty” and “illiterate” gentiles.
Why this ‘us’ vs. ‘them’ mentality? Isn’t this the sort of thinking that should be overcome? If we browns have been so oppressed, then why do we have to fall in the same trap?
My mother and I were thinking of buying tickets to see the acclaimed young Chinese pianist Lang Lang. The programme would consist of among others Mozart, Schumann and Rachmaninov. Is Lang Lang wrong to be practicing Western classical music? Should he be apologetic about it and expect criticism for his choice to ‘appropriate’ a culture that is not his? He’s just doing his own thang. I too, practice Western classical music and also have dabbled(yes, I am a mere dillettante) in Eastern-European folk-dancing and ballroom dancing. I just love folk music. Why should culture be the sole property of those who were born into it? Why can’t we all just get along?
If we browns have been so oppressed, then why do we have to fall in the same trap?
meena, we’re morons.
I’m all for cultural appropriation, especially if it is done brutally and with complete disregard for the sentiments of the natives. I find the docile, hypersensitive deference some liberals display a bit annoying, but hey, that’s just me. After all, I only attack and argue with those whom I respect. If i think someone is weak, iÂ’m much less likely to criticize.
forget the rednecks and brownnecks who take pride in a accomplishments not of their own making and stand guard before them as if they are the owners. Love is theft as bob dylan informs us. steal, steal away…and throw in a little rape for good measure.
“For instance, 68 percent of Asian Indians, age 25 and older, had a bachelorÂ’s degree or more education and 37 percent had a graduate or professional degree; the corresponding numbers for Vietnamese-Americans were 24 percent and 7 percent, respectively.”
“For Asian Indians, for example, the median income in 2004 was $68,771; for Vietnamese-Americans, it was $45,980.”
source.
booh-hoo-hoo. white oppression, white oppression. screw the vietnamese, they aren’t black, they don’t feel the full brunt of white skin privilege.
sorry if my frustration is starting to show.
Al Beruni, It indeed boggles my mind that a self-hating, apologist for white behavior like yourself would accuse someone else of Uncle Tom-ism.
Sorry dude, you can marry a white, take a white name, self-loathe as musch as you want but you won’t be able to get the desi out of your system.
Gautham-kudos on your posts.
I’m seeing far too much over-analysis of this issue. It seems to happen a lot with issues concerning race on that side of the Atlantic, both on SM and off it.
Common sense, people. That’s all you need, along with what in the UK is called a sense of “fair play”.
I have to strongly disagree with the notion that you can only be racist if you are in some kind of position of power where you can negatively impact someone else’s life as a result of your prejudice. You are racist if you are prejudiced towards someone (or an entire group) based purely on their ethnic/racial affiliation (or religious background, or nationality, although the former may require another term as it isn’t actually based on race). That’s it. Full-stop. There are no extenuating circumstances for something that is fundamentally morally wrong, regardless of the excuses one may try to use w.r.t “power dynamics” and so on.
Indeed, I’m detecting a tendency here to veer into the concept of “collective guilt”, which is something I am dead against, as long-time visitors to SM will know. Nobody is personally responsible for the “crimes” of other people who happen to be from the same background as them, either historically or in the present day.
Gautham,
Since I am 11 years older than you and to some extent wasn’t that different to you in this matter when I was your age, we can perhaps excuse your mindset as being based on lack of sufficient life-experience. However:
Negative, unjustified reactions are to be recognised and overcome, not excused. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and it’s certainly not morally correct to use other parties’ negative behaviour as an excuse to justify one’s own.
Razib,
Amen (as you would say)
i believe they do. it leads to incivility, and further antagonism in a multiracial society.
Its funny you say that because I almost put that qualifier after I finished writing that sentence but chose not to because I dont believe that it applies in the US. I would however agree with you that the perception of potent minority racism aginst whites can fuck things up in the US. As I mentioned in my comment on the Affirmative Action dialogue, there is a difference between white legitimate grievance and whining. I think all talk of minority racism against the whites in the US is hogwash at best and has become fodder for the burgeoning ‘white grievance industry’. Perception of course matters and I would agree with makin some cosmetic changes so as to defang the white grievance industry before it monopolizes the public dialogue and possibly policy in future.
razib dude, I feel ya.
And hey y’all – how do you feel about such Beatles songs as ‘Love You Too’ and ‘Within You Without You’? Not to forget sitar-playing George Harrison. Boy, that was some cultural misappropriation!
AlMfD,
It’s one of the reasons we have desis from a certain backgound here in the UK blowing up people on trains and so on.
booh-hoo-hoo. white oppression, white oppression. screw the vietnamese, they aren’t black, they don’t feel the full brunt of white skin privilege.
sorry if my frustration is starting to show.
Razib,
I am not talking about ‘white oppression’. I am only talking about minority oppression against whites in the US. Lets not build a straw man 😉
I mean I was only talking about the ‘minorities oppressing the whites’ in the US.
minorities oppressing the whites
don’t you know any whites who have grown up in majority minority areas???