A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
lol. technophobicgeek, why are you sucking me back into this conversation? You missed out on my last black hair diatribe, from which it would be useful to note that I and Oneup do share a slight difference of opinion (and I have a feeling, different texture of hair as well)! We don’t have to do anything unless we want to get a job outside of liberal acadmeia or creative arts. Textured hair is acceptable but only in certain circles.
Oneup covered the process for straightening. I talked about “natural” hair on my blog and India Arie sang about it on her album. People don’t want to talk about it because they’re too busy playing “hairblind“. Seriously. Talking about it would force everyone to acknowledge the difference and recognize it as natural and appropriate.
Moving right along, Gabe, Gautham, I’m going to have to step in and defend the white girl on this one. We can’t label everybody racist who has dispariging thoughts about other ethnicities or cultures cause there’s somebody somewhere doing or looking like something we don’t like either AND if everybody’s racist, there aren’t any racists? Right? I agree that embracing and defending those points of view is when a person has crossed the line from irrational emotionalism to calculated racism. However, I don’t think Andrea or the author of the article were attempting to do, or justify, that action.
Um, no. Yes, the predjudiced views of the majority have the powers-that-be weighing in on their side, but just because we (nonwhites) are not in a postition to inflict acts of institutional racism against white people doesn’t make stinky attitudes and mean comments sting any less on an individual level.
down boy! down!
“Um, no. Yes, the predjudiced views of the majority have the powers-that-be weighing in on their side, but just because we (nonwhites) are not in a postition to inflict acts of institutional racism against white people doesn’t make stinky attitudes and mean comments sting any less on an individual level.”
True, I just caution against using the word “racism” to encompass solely stinky attitudes and mean comments. But I would also say, that even on an individual level, the mean comments can never be equivalent, remember the old Richard Pryor scene from S.N.L?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk9ECvjma0E
Oneup and t-hype, thanks for the info on the Af-Am hair thing. What exactly do you mean by ‘textured’ hair? Curly (African-style)? In what sense is it perceived negatively outside the liberal circles?
I can understand the fair-and-lovely analogy, Oneup, thanks for that. But from what you guys say, having natural ‘African’ hair seems to be more than just a beauty issue, it also seems to be an career obstacle.
Gautham said: “The most insulated Indian people I have ever met are from South Bombay- they literally have no idea what the rest of the country lives like, and many never speak anything but English”.
Dude, you are 100% right. I hate that crowd, to such an extent that when I meet people from that background in the US, I really have to force myself to be civil to them. Unfortunately, people in other areas of India are gradually becoming like them too.
Jai,
We have the same situation here. The desis here however are not directly born in India but are nth generation whose ancestors were brought to Surinam to work on plantations in the 19th century. But the men are seen generally as very masculine and they have a ‘macho’ culture. In fact, I’d venture to say that it was ever so slightly sexist. Although some of their social norms are very ‘loose’ (i.e. pre-mariral sex) the girls are still deemed to fit into a specific role and seen more as sex objects. I guess this is also somewhat inspired by hip-hop videos.
Re: fairness. Forget about the whites – when my ancestors were stationed in Japan around 1940 the common attitude there was “Indians are black; we are white”.
On a completely off-topic note, I still do a double-take when I see someone with the same name as mine :O
What do you mean? 🙂
Sorry Gabe, I meant to write that to Gautham. 🙂
This is one of those things where I don’t want to put down anyone else’s hair… but she is right, we do have a substantially different type of hair. Black people have hair that ranges from extremely small and tight individual coils (think of a telephone cord thats been warped from years of use)… to loose and curly. The tight and kinky tends to stand up while the loser kind hangs down. Think Lauren Hill vs. Kelis. The latter is preferred by a substantial number of black women, though even these women sometimes straighten their hair. T-hype is far toward the extremely tight coils… I’m somewhere in the middle.
Here is where it gets difficult, and where opinions tend to diverge. MOST people, regardless of race, seem to prefer straight hair. I’ve seen East Asian girls with completely straight hair (to my eyes) flip out if they have even a small amount of poof. And there’s been a couple bollywood flicks where a woman with wavy hair is “eh” then she gets made over and her hair is slick straight. SO. By default, the hair that black people have is definitely perceived negatively by most people.
The career issue.. there is a common held belief that naturally kinky hair on a black woman is not acceptable in the corporate world. Read: white people won’t like it. I sincerely believe that today, this is absolute bull. Believe it or not the vast majority of my friends are not black, and with the exception of my best friend (who just doesnt like change) and they LOVE my hair. They just think its cool, and this is a sentiment that is echoed by a large number of black women with natural hair. What it comes down to is: Can you do the job? Your hair, so long as it can be worn in a conservative style (which it can) doesn’t make a difference. The only exception to this is with regard to locs. Locs mainly are an issue with black men though, and the rules against locs are mainly (IMO) related to the rule against men having long hair in the workplace.
Honestly, since I made the decision to stop straightening my hair, the ONLY people who have persistently had a problem with it have been other black people. There’s a dearth of black women who can totally relate and understand my choice, but there are a lot of people who act like I’m shaming not just myself, but every black woman on earth everytime I walk out in public. It really is ridiculous.
If I dont get a haircut for a while, I get the “southie fro”…
Amitabh & Gautham
who are these south bombayites of which you speak? Are they socialites or something? Gautham mentioned rahul gandhi, are they the people who run the congress party or mixed race indians? i think i heard something about a north/south bombay scism but never quite got it. just curious.
Note: The following applies to the time that I grew up in Bombay (upto Y2k). Currently, the distinctions are gradually getting a bit blunted.
The North/South Bombay schism is between the ‘city’ and the suburbs. The suburb kids perceive city people as faux-american snobs, whereas the city kids perceive suburban kids as hopelessly rustic and unclassy and uncool.
City kids tend to be children of executives, doctors and high-upper-middle-class folks with access to brand names/foreign travel and similar experiences not available to lower-middle-class suburban kids. There are rich folks in suburbia, but they are not necessarily highly-educated/classy backgrounds (think Guju diamond merchants).
When I was growing up in Northern Bombay suburbs, all the classy malls, the English-movie theaters, exotic restaurants were in the City. Given the average difficulty of a Bombay commute, it was very difficult for the suburb-dwellers, even those who could afford it, to experience the high life.
Nowadays, this is slowly changing with even the suburbia sprouting malls/theaters/restaurants etc to cater to the outsourcing set.
technophobicgeek
thanks technophobicgeek . very interesting. universal theme too (differnt side of the tracks, etc) with a bit of a racial twist.
you said “The suburb kids perceive city people as faux-american snobs.” do you mean british, or western in general; or has american pop-cultural hegemony reached india.
i grew up in the US (and uk) but the indians that i knew who didn’t act indian mostly emulated the british (with that great indo-english accent and all). i guess the younger indian kids (meaning from india) i see today act americainized. has america toppled the uk culturally in inda w/o colonializing?
Don’t want to derail the thread BUT
I’ll only say, depends on where you live. Metropolitan areas are more accepting than others. Unfortunately, if your employment depends on it, you go with the flow, pick a different industry or move somewhere else. I myself, planning the latter…
Gautham wrote:
Gautham, I believe this may have been a valid and useful point in the past. However, I think that the idea that racism is “a problem of white people” and that only white racism can inflict serious harm would be a very unproductive belief to carry into the future. Doesn’t matter who’s “in charge” in that very diverse future nation — in it, any large group with entrenched racial prejudices (and every ethnic group has them) will pose a serious problem for the country.
This is a bizarre “Al Sharpton”-like point of view. It reminds one of the more eccentric left-wing or religous fundamentalist positions. There are 100s of situations, whether at work or at play or at cultural organizations, where power resides with a dominant group. We could have a white person working with mostly indian engineers and managers (i have seen this happen), we could have a brown indian trying to break into a mostly black-dominated sports or cultural organization; we could have a born again-latino group dissing a white jew for some nonsensical reason.
This reference to all encompassing white domination, which excuses everyone else from hate and prejudice is pretty lame.
“We could have a white person working with mostly indian engineers and managers (i have seen this happen)”
But if this group of people are working in the US, once they exit that microcosm, it’s the Indian engineers and managers that must “bow down” to the majority white perception. And I would venture to say even within that microcosm, they’d need to bend towards that perception as well. The white guy working along side these Indian techno-gods would probably not feel compelled to learn their cultural norms, practices and idiosyncrasies, (for example, discussing cricket, bollywood films, what have you, and those are just minor, frivolous things) Gautham is on point here. An Indian trying to break into black dominated sports doesn’t really hold water to your conclusion because blacks might dominate the players, but no where near dominate the ownership and administration of pro sports organizations, and they make the decisions as to who’s in and who’s out.
I think you might be conflating being rich and being wealthy, but Chris Rock really tells it best:
“Shaq, rich. white man that signs Shaq’s check, wealthy”
when i do business in the pacific rim, i and my american colleagues adopt their cultural norms…late nights out on the town drinking sake and eating jap/korean food while discussing biz. lots of fun.
i think your assumption of white privilidge in the business world is a little outdated in the age of globalization and freer markets. In the most cutting edge fields: Ibanking, venture cap, IT, biotech, etc…america is the far and away leader and sets the cultural norms. however, in many ways, asia has surpassed europe (with the exception of the uk) and i’d say, culturally, it may be at least on par.
white people rule! (rule in a good way, not in a herrenvolk way)
(no time for elaboration, so i figured i’d just leave a strong declaration)
Meena wrote: “Re: fairness. Forget about the whites – when my ancestors were stationed in Japan around 1940 the common attitude there was “Indians are black; we are white”.
Very true. Many japanese are repulsed by India. Even though they are some of the biggest travelers in the world very few go to India despite its historical connection with buddhism. Its possible that the decline of buddhism in Japan has in part something to do with the association of India in japanese minds with backwardness and blackness. Malays and mexicans, who see themselves as brown, also see most Indians as blacks. Thats what the 10% of indians in Malaysia are called by the native bhumiputras. Which is why I find it amusing that the posters here, to a man/woman, insist they are “brownz”. Anything but black. Even though the gods they love and worship are portrayed as black in the Puranas.
personally, i never experienced this w/ the japanese, thought i am only talking about business relationships which tend to be formal. In fact, i thought i experienced a bit more acceptance among them because i was indian-american in comparison to my white-american colleages.
but boy, did they hate the koreans.
Oneup: “MOST people, regardless of race, seem to prefer straight hair…….By default, the hair that black people have is definitely perceived negatively by most people.”
Did you know that Buddha, the most adored and revered person on earth for centuries, is always depicted as having tightly curled hair? Or that Sathya Sai Baba, India’s most significant spiritual personality in centuries, has a full on afro?
Which is why I find it amusing that the posters here, to a man/woman, insist they are “brownz”.
Interesting thought, but I don’t think its used maliciously to distinguish the community from blacks; its simply the term, along with “desi”, to have caught on among second generation South Asians. And black in America is understood to be persons of African descent. And also, some 1st gen Indians get profoundly offended when they are referred to as brown, they prefer Indian.
Did you know that Buddha, the most adored and revered person on earth for centuries, is always depicted as having tightly curled hair?
the east asian buddha too?
Its possible that the decline of buddhism in Japan has in part something to do with the association of India in japanese minds with backwardness and blackness.
no it isn’t. the tokugawa enforced that japanese families had to register with a buddhist temple to stamp out christianity. during the meiji restoration a focus on shinto was emphasized because of its special nationalistic character (the emperor is the descendent of the sun goddess after all), but buddhism came back after the war. most japanese are equally apathetic about shinto and buddhism as they are about religion in general, but they go through shinto rites and buddhist rites as cultural rituals as well. shinto has nothing to do with black indians but it isn’t believed with in fervor either. stop making stuff up, it’s offensive.
Malays and mexicans, who see themselves as brown, also see most Indians as blacks. Thats what the 10% of indians in Malaysia are called by the native bhumiputras. Which is why I find it amusing that the posters here, to a man/woman, insist they are “brownz”. Anything but black. Even though the gods they love and worship are portrayed as black in the Puranas.
myself, and a substantial proportion of us here assert that we should identity as brown whether our objective color is white or black. here is a map of skin color reflectance. there is overlap between browns and black africans, but, on average we are somewhat lighter than sub-saharan africans. the ancient greeks distinguished between the blacks of ethiopia, with wooly hair, the blacks of southern indian (with straight hair) and the “egyptian colored” (“wheat”) people of northern india (cite: mary lefkowitz, ‘not out of africa’). i am well aware of our citations above, i have repeated them myself to rebutt those who would deny that we as brown people are somehow ‘whites with tans.’ but, your talking points are infantile in their gross simplicity. as for malays, that is true, but, it must be remembered that their own indian population is predominantly tamil. bollywood is popular in that nation because idealized lighter brown north indians are not perceived as black. i don’t know about the mexicans, that doesn’t jive with what i know, latin americans tend to have very precise perceptions of race (too precise and creepy). i once implied to a brazilian woman (white) that in brazil i would be assumed to be mixed race (black-white), and she replied immediately, “no, you would be what we called turkish.”
some of the attempt to distinguish between brownz and blacks seemed a bit much to me as well, but, i think most of the commenters were doing it in the interests of accuracy, not racism (though racism in the brown community is powerful).
p.s. japanese buddhism came from korea, which itself came from china, which came from central asia, which came from india. the idea that most japanese, who barely know that the christmas they celebrate is a christian holiday, associate buddhism with india is ridiculous. in fact, i have seen polls which show that most japanese are somewhat more familiar with the details of christian theology than they are with buddhist metaphysics.
razib:
you have outdone yourself with post #184. your command of history and attention to detail is unmatched here at SM.
I especially like your freakin “map of skin color reflectance” to deflect some of the more paranoid fantasies of some on this board.
classic RtA, makes me want to revisit the scientific method. you’ve earned your riesling tonight.
LOL LOL LOL !!! Did Satya Sai baba tell you that when “he was flying” or “he just read” your thoughts?? :-))
(The joke is: the “devotees” of this baba claim that Baba can fly and read people’s mind. Baba also claims to have re-birth already …. Quite amusing actually)
you’ve earned your riesling tonight.
how did you know i was drinking a reisling???
Sai Baba
never mind. i forgot that i’d posted here once when drunk. that’s what drinking does to you….
Razib_the_atheist:
Yes. Your ignorance on this matter is remarkable.
Whats ridiculous is your pretentiousness. Silly of you to think that the japanese are an ignorant, uneducated lot.
Two points: firstly, the northern india referred to by the ancient greeks most likely refers to northwestern India, not U.P., Bihar etc. Alexander never made it past the Indus River. Secondly, Egypt in those days was way blacker than it is today. It hadn’t yet been colonized by romans, turks etc.
Bollywood’s whitewashed stars are in no way representative of your typical north indian. Its ridiculous of you to think so.
I am sure that flattered you no end. Which is what she probably intended. FYI, whites and others are well aware of the south asian inferiority complex regarding their position in the racial heirarchy. I suggest you visit turkey or central asia and see for yourself how like a sore thumb you will stand out.
Manju, Not Sai baba … but Satya Sai baba (as in true/real Sai baba). Sai baba was a sufi saint who had both Hindus and Muslim followers and he is long dead. The “Satya sai baba” is alive and well.
most japanese are equally apathetic about shinto and buddhism as they are about religion in general, but they go through shinto rites and buddhist rites as cultural rituals as well.
yes. Buddhism is not completely dead. Nicheren Buddhism (the presoleytizing Soka Gakai sect comes to mind) Zen, Pure Land, all have a large number of adherents among a population apathetic to all religions. Even though Shinto is associated with Japanese Nationalists, many of the apologists for the Japanese regime were Zen scholars.
associate buddhism with india is ridiculous.
Dude, the japanese knows the Buddha comes from India 🙂 Also Japanese Buddhist scholars and popularizers obviously know, viz. DT Suzuki, Masao Abe. Also, many deities in Japan are clearly of Indian origin, though they may not know that.
Silly of you to think that the japanese are an ignorant, uneducated lot.
most humans are rather ignorant & uneducated. hm….
Secondly, Egypt in those days was way blacker than it is today. It hadn’t yet been colonized by romans, turks etc.
no. i doubt it. bones do not lie. of course, reading the histories strongly suggest that the macedonians, greeks, turks, circassians, arabs, etc. were nothing but a trivial addition to the egyptian stock in any case.
razib_the_atheist: “white people rule!”
LOL. Says a lot about you. You should get together with Dinesh D’Souza, Ramesh Ponnuru and similar-minded “brownz” and start a petition inviting the Brits back to rule the Indian subcontinent.
Dude, the japanese knows the Buddha comes from India 🙂 Also Japanese Buddhist scholars and popularizers obviously know, viz. DT Suzuki, Masao Abe. Also, many deities in Japan are clearly of Indian origin, though they may not know that.
scholars are irrelevant to my point (in any case, i tend to follow the school of thought that zen buddhism which is ultimately derived from chinese chan buddhism in china is more daoist than buddhist in substance, but different debate). the poster above asserted that buddhism declined because of its associations with black indians. i do not believe that japanese associate buddhism with indians anymore than white christians association christianity with modern middle easterners.
You should get together with Dinesh D’Souza, Ramesh Ponnuru and similar-minded “brownz” and start a petition inviting the Brits back to rule the Indian subcontinent.
i think “baby” killing is fine, unlike dinesh and ramesh (also, no offense to ramesh, but i dislike the fact that he is married to a fat woman. represent please).
I once saw dinesh’s wife years ago. really hot. and her name is Dixie. he also dated ann coulter (who is too skinny, imo).
coulter is a Man baby! but i better watch it, abhi told me a long time ago not to be shallow on these boards, and i’ve tried to hold back. nice to know dinesh hits fine quality, though i wish his thinking would be a little less glib & shallow. but hey, he rakes in the $$$ for saying what people want to hear….
scholars are irrelevant to my point (in any case, i tend to follow the school of thought that zen buddhism which is ultimately derived from chinese chan buddhism in china is more daoist than buddhist in substance, but different debate).
scholars and popularizers, the second being key. and i disagree about zen – “dhyana” in Skt. and its ultimate derivation from daoism though I have read the Chinese nationalist claims, but yes, another thread which is thoroughly hijacked at the moment.
i think he was hittin her b/f he made the bucks and b/f conservatism rose to be the dominant ideology. also, I think he dated coultler in college but not sure. either way, i hear he did pretty well w/ the ladies back in the day, believe it or not.
Shazam, With my comment on Satya Sai Baba, I dont intend to pick on you. The claims I mentioned were told to me by someone and I thought its quite amazing that people will believe such claims. But then in India people believe that Makbul baba fakir turned seawater sweet and thousands of idiots were drinking it up.
razib_the_atheist:
You are misrepresenting my words. Perhaps its the wine that has fogged your mind. I ‘asserted’ no such thing. Note my use of the words “its possible….that in part”.
The wine again. For your information the turks (and romans) hadn’t yet reached Egypt at that time. There are far more whites and mixed hybrids in modern Egypt than there were in the time of the ancient Greeks.
There are far more whites and mixed hybrids in modern Egypt than there were in the time of the ancient Greeks.
assertion does not equal citation. (an aside to other readers: i suppose the rest of you do recall that the arab slave trade from sub-saharan africa introduced exogenous genetic material into many arab populations? as suggested by genetic data?)
RC:
Feel free to pick on me. I advise you to do a little research on Sathya Sai Baba before ridiculing him. He counts among his devotees Presidents, Prime Ministers, top scientists and indutrialists…..not just from India but from around the world. No other single individual has done more for indians than him: from free schools, colleges and universities to free world-class hospitals, to free water projects etc.
What have you done? And what do your initials RC stand for?
razib_the_atheist:
For your information, the arabs and turks were equal opportunity slave traders. They enslaved numerous indians and europeans as well. Check the etymology of the word Slav aka eastern european.
If you bother to read Herodotus you will find that he mentions the myth among the greeks that Egyptians had black sperm, in contrast to their own whitish semen.
hey shazam. why are you so angry?
Relax. have some pavarti cheese and a plum.
I prefaced my claim to those living and working in the US. Of course white Americans may temporarily adopt customs of countries they visit for business, in order to close the deal. And even so, awkwardly bowing, drinking sake and chowing down on yaki soba is cultural tourism, not any kind of significant adopting of a culture out of a social need.
I have an anecdote, I knew an Indian man working in the US, just come from India. He actually made an effort to watch basketball games, watch the latest episode of friends, etc.. just so he could talk about whether monica is dating chandler or joey intelligently the next day. Not everyone does this, but the pressure is there.
I can only speak of white privelage in the US, as that’s the only place I have been able to observe it and understand the history which spawned it.
For your information, the arabs and turks were equal opportunity slave traders. They enslaved numerous indians and europeans as well. Check the etymology of the word Slav aka eastern european.
i am well aware of this. you don’t need to lecture me on history, trust me.
If you bother to read Herodotus you will find that he mentions the myth among the greeks that Egyptians had black sperm, in contrast to their own whitish semen.
LOL.
shazam, i don’t disagree with everything you say. i have presented some (frankly, the non-made up ones) of the talking points you put forth in other threads. but trying so hard to conflate indians with blacks and parroting afrocentrist historo-propogannda is as the same level as the indians who promote ideas about their descent from the aryan race. whatever norms we have, sullying the facts is a recipe for losing the war in the interests of a short term battle.
razib_the_atheist:
You have already been corrected on a number of points. Clearly your knowledge of history (or current affairs for that matter)isnt as complete as you imagine.
It really is blinkered ignorance on your part to equate blackness exclusively with africanness.