A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
Razib:
This lactose-intolerance thing…I know the statistics, but I’m sceptical…many Chinese and Korean people I know can drink milk without a problem. What’s up with that?
This lactose-intolerance thing…I know the statistics, but I’m sceptical…many Chinese and Korean people I know can drink milk without a problem. What’s up with that?
you can develop tolerance over time, and the reaction varies between people. some people have mild gas. some people get bowel ailments and serious digestive tract issues. my friend was in the latter case.
Kobayashi! Brilliant! But the Samuelsson example does not lend credence to the Razib the Great’s argument:
Aquavit is inventive, confrontational, and more individualistic than multicultural. Clearly his complex background allows him to see beyond culture, as plato advocated in his cave analogy, to get to the true essence of his ingrediants.
He may give Salmon a Swedish massage, using Ethiopian spices mixed with caviar and goat cheese. The result is distinctive. He is not really Swedish or Ethiopian. He is his own man. He practices the great art of cultural genocide. Like Plato, he informs us thru his food that culture is a cave from which we must escape.
Like Plato, he informs us thru his food that culture is a cave from which we must escape.
only a few i believe. most people need culture, just as they need religion. they need boundaries, rootedness, etc.
Yes. With Samuelsson, we are only talking about the great one’s here. The true artists.
I’m not sure if youre referring to me, but I never said this. While I don’t believe in giving into perceptions and allowing them to dictate who you are… I do recognize that people’s perceptions can still heavily impact an individual when it comes to things like dating, careers, religion, etc. This is especially true when the individual is strikingly different (in this case by having extremely dark skin) in appearance from the majority.
Yes, it’s great that the author gave V a home, but my problems with her really aren’t specifically related to her adopting V. My problem is with her initial attitude. She could have adopted a child from anywhere in the world, but she chose an Indian child. Great, Indian orphans need homes too. But geez, before adopting, she didn’t even take the time to realize that Indians can be dark? REALLY dark? What else does(n’t) she know about Indians? What’s so bad about the little girl being dark? And why does she fear it SO much? Why would you continue with a transracial adoption if you “feel embarrased” talking about race issues?
Lisa Lerner has her own prejudices and my hope is that she, and others like her, don’t rub those prejudices off on the children they adopt.
On the same token, I don’t mind at all when people like Angelina Jolie adopt children who don’t “match.” Not because she has money, but because she makes a sincere effort to make sure her children know who they are and where they come from… even if mommy’s heritage is totally different.
Agreed. But it’s upto the kid to decide which void she wants to fill when she grows up, depending on her experiences with other people. The parent can only be honest with the kids about their ‘origins’.
However, I don’t agree that an adoptive parent of a colored kid NEEDS to educate the kid differently ONLY because the kid is racially different.
Another interesting and related question that’s in my mind is that of gay/lesbian parents raising kids. I know a lesbian couple who are close friends and one of them is pregnant. Personally, I’m very fine with that. But I hear people making arguments against it that are analogous to the inter-racial adoption arguments. Wondering what y’all think.
Just to add:
I would come down just as hard on someone who say, decided to have 3 children of their own but didn’t think about how they were going to provide for them financially until after the fact. It’s just bad planning… which is fine when its just one person being affected, but not so much with regard to innocent children.
Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. How did I miss this part of the article. Having re-read, I am even more sure that this woman is extremely GRATEFUL that the child doesn’t look black. No wonder I was pissed off the first time I read it. I’m not too quick to put the racist label on anyone, but I will say that I am extremely offended that she’s relieved she didn’t adopt a little negro baby. Its no secret that pretty much everyone puts black people at the bottom of the totem pole, but damn, need I be reminded SO frequently…
Hmm, that’s a good point. But then again, we all have hidden issues that don’t surface until we try something new. I will follow Amardeep and give her the benefit of doubt. She is being brutally honest with herself in dealing with the race issues.
Why does she need to know anything else about Indians? Doing the girl’s hair should not really be a problem, methinks 🙂 (Don’t mean to be snide, but I have been hearing WAYYYY too much about this whole black-woman-hair-scary thing in the context of both inter-racial dating and adoption.)
oneup, you have way too much time on your hands.
^^^^ i mean second only to razib… but then with so much race questions around, it could not have been any other way.
There are certain topics that draw me to comment more than others. There are many topics on the Macaca incident that I now only glance at, but I don’t go into the discussion and tell the people who are still intrigued by the discussion that they need to move on. Why ruin the fun of debate and discussion for others just because I don’t have anything to add?
I always love it when users point out the frivolity of commenting on a blog… by commenting on a blog. Right.
oneup, we agree!
I had meant it to be a joke, as with the comment for razib—now, razib no need to pounce on me yet. It is not even the first time people on this blog have said what I have said when the comment count starts exploding.
But since you feel fit to attack me, I will gladly respond—I never said I did not have too much time on my hands.
First, I already said what I wanted abt this story in #58 and it remains my comment to almost anything you have said so far. Like they say, before you attack others, look at yourself first. Especially comments like this:
You are so quick to judge this woman—she had prejudices for sure, but she acknowledges so. She feels for the child despite her prejudices, and her affection for the child seems to have helped her get over at least some of it. More than what can be said of most of us. And put yourself in her position. You think a mother does not want her child to be like her, at least in some way? That particular quote, taken in the context of the rest of the article, indicates confusion rather than racism.
And finally, I will be really surprised if you don’t have any biases. Would you think you are superior because your particular biases don’t concern skin color? What do you expect—a majority of the world, or even your closest circle are free of prejudices whatsoever? You think this woman is particularly heinous because she said the color word even if she has made a lot of effort to correct herself, and definitely seems to be headed the right way?
If you are sure you are truly egalitarian in every aspect, well think before you talk.
Interesting article, not least because I have given serious thought to adopting Indian babies myself (in the future, of course… far future.) I guess it all comes down to “it’s not what you do, it’s how you do it.”
But it does bring up a lot of issues. Issues aren’t bad… it means you understand and accept that things aren’t static, and there are many facets to an issue.
First, I’m proud of her for adopting, and giving a home to a child who would not otherwise have one. Second, I’m happy that she was honest about her feelings. This lady is getting a pummeling on Alternet for being “racist” because she is worried about how her daughter will be perceived. She’s a new mom… she’s going to worry about everything that is presented to her. Is Vaishali going to grow up healthy? Will she get along with her peers in school? “Is her skin color going to be a limitation?” seems to be a perfectly valid question in the mind of a new, worried mom who hasn’t gotten a lot of sleep, and who has, consciously or unconsciously, internalized the weird dichotomy us white people get about how we must be colorblind, but we look at the boardrooms of major corporations and see no faces darker than beige, and then get to feel guilty about it.
I don’t really care WHY she adopted an Indian baby. The fact is, she did, and now she and Vaishali are both going to have a lot of learning experiences ahead of them. I think it is important that she at least expose Vaishali to facets of Indian culture (especially those of the region from where she is originally from) that are available to her in the US, and the idea of “getting darker friends,” offensive as it may sound, doesn’t seem like such a bad idea. She’ll have some exposure to the culture if Mom sets up playdates with other Indian kids, and their parents, who may be white, Indian or a mix of both. You don’t raise a kid in a vacuum, especially not if you’re a single mom. Hopefully she will have a community that will help her out, and if some of that community can teach Vaishali a little more of where she came from, so much the better.
Also, Vaishali will be growing up in a city and, to a lesser extent, a country where families don’t consist of a mom, dad, two kids and a dog all the same color. The world she is growing up in is vastly different from the one we live in. Compare your childhood to the image your parents gave you of theirs, regardless of what country they grew up in. It’s the same between us and this baby, if not more so thanks to technological advances. She will be in school with all kinds of kids from numerous backgrounds; racial, cultural, religious, or otherwise. She’ll be growing up with all-this or all-that kids, half-this or half-that kids, quarter-this, quarter-that and half-that kids, and probably your odd blonde child of Hare Krishna hippy parents too. You get used to what you’re around. I grew up an identical twin, and didn’t see anything weird about it, even though all my friends did. If you grow up brown, and mom’s single and white, that’s normal.
And who knows? Maybe all these kids will grow up with their own weird complexes about race and culture. $DEITY knows we all did, and we haven’t killed each other off yet. Or maybe they will just do what they know, and race will be less of an issue generation after generation.
Culture’s a different question, and one I don’t want to get too much into here, since I’ve already written a dissertation. The question is, does having multi-ethnic household enrich or dilute culture? I guess it could do both… it’s all a question of the influences you have around you and how much you’re willing to learn. Again, it’s not the “what,” it’s the “how.”
And to continue #123:
If you are truly egalitarian, you would have confronted at least some of your biases the same way this woman has done. But your lack of sympathy either means you are morally in a higher plane, or that you have never confronted your own shortcomings; you could not have ever had no biases, not in the times we live in. If you are in a morally higher plane, well, my salutations.
I guess we should not be too judgemental, unforgiving or all those other things that humans are. And hey itÂ’s always good to nuance things, I mean it prevents you from having over excessive emotions likeÂ… blowing up trains when you have too much spare time
So in that light I have a few random thoughts:
We need darker friends: It takes a baby to hang out with “darker” friends? My prayers are that the moment she starts talking will say: mommy-ji I’m Gay!!!. So that the quest can continue, but this time for “gayer” friends.
If she wanted to share similarities with the adopted child in question why, Why a child from Macaca land?
Okay since the US has a comedy genius running the country, we Europeans tend to think that AmericanÂ’s are stupid.
DonÂ’t blame us.. itÂ’s because of the jokes:
“The point now is how do we work together to achieve important goals. And one such goal is a democracy in Germany.”—Washington, D.C., May 5, 2006
“You never know what your history is going to be like until long after you’re gone.”—Washington, D.C., May 5, 2006
And luckily for us the Fun never stops!! Okay, lame one and yes we do know that definitely not all AmericanÂ’s are stupid but for crying out loud doesnÂ’t the term bloody darkies ring a bell?!!
It’s almost absurd to realise that anno 2006 we still haven’t overcome our dark-o-phobic ways. To call it an act of racisms is futile I guess, it’s merely a lack of knowledge and perhaps even ignorance. That Nietzsche dude once wrote He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted so my cynical side does question the intentions of the article and I wonder if Vaishaili, when she grows up, would like the fact that her mother had “troubles” with her skin.
Also Identity is an construction, not only whatÂ’s in her veins is going to decide who she is. The society, the people that are going to make her cry and laugh, the books she will read the samosaÂ’s she will eat, boyfriends, music, weather, pets, candy, movies, travels etc. etc. All of it will contribute to that unique mosaic of experiences called Vaishali.
Hanging out white people alone should not be a problem the same for black people. But I think you miss out on a world if you do not decide to hang out with somebody outside letÂ’s say youÂ’re skintone. Overall I think that the only thing that Lisa can be accused of is missing out on a world.
I hope Lisa will discover all the benefits of an interracial relationship (mom-daughter in this case) for starters.. Indian FOOD!!!!
I need an samosa
It’s clear to me that Lisa is a racist of the worst kind, and she got the child from another race to convince herself that she isn’t. Come on, her diaper change adventure is incredibly racist, as well as how she says that dark-skinned people have tougher times in life as the reason to why she would prefer a lighter skinned girl. Yeah, right.
And she wants to solve her “problems” with dark-skinned friends? Oh dear. Doesnt’ she know that what the child really needs is acceptance for what she is to build her self-esteem? With a mother like that, I am sure she will defintely have a tough time growing up.
Sorry, I was offended by her comments. I thought this level of racism was only confined in the west to neo-nazi parents.
To those against interracial dating in general, unless y’all go out and adopt a few of those dark-skinned baby girls who have been abandoned in a rural dumpster in India, you really have no right to say anything.
It is not necessarily damaging for a child to grow up in an enviroment where everybody looks dissimilar to him or her. Remember that every child is different and thus has a different way of dealing with such situations. Some might not encounter any problems at all. Remember also that race is not the only factor in ostracization. I was an outsider for many years in highschool for reasons which had nothing to do with race at all. People who are naturally quiet, shy and a little socially awkward will encounter problems, no matter the race. Another aspect to keep in mind is that little children can be cruel and will always find something to taunt about, whether skin colour, red hair, braces, glasses or gay parents.
In fact like a couple of other posters I rather enjoyed being the only Indian. No trouble with boys, but then again being female one is never with a want of male attention. ;)Don’t have any cultural problems at this point in life either except maybe an inability to appreciate Bollywood. 😉
Oh, and there is nothing offensive about the use of the word ‘blacks’.It is no different than the usage of the word ‘white’ or ‘gora’. I find these politically correct terms such as ‘African-American’ and ‘Haitian-American’ etc to be far more offensive than ‘black’. It seems as though the desperate search for ‘alternate terms’ denotes that there is something to be ashamed of in being black.
Well, there are increasingly more and more examples of south-asian faces in high-profile managerial positions. The thing about Lisa is the relation she has with the child, and she doesn’t seem to get past the color difference. I can’t honestly understand that. My girlfriend is white, we are probably getting married soon and start having children. If any of my children looks like her, I would be delighted as much as she would be delighted to have a child that looks like me. It really doesn’t matter. Becuase if it did matter, then I would stick with my own kind. And that is probably what Lisa should have done.
Interesting situation.
I don’t think Lisa’s racist; her “crime” is ignorance/naivety, not maliciousness. Amongst other things, she seems to be a little misinformed about the racial characteristics of Indians and seems to be conflating them with people of African origin, re: her comments about “checking for straightness of hair”.
She’s being a “concerned parent”, in the same way that a woman who is married to a short man will worry about the disadvantages her children (especially her sons) will face in society if they take after their father in this aspect. It’s a matter of trying to be pragmatic and protective of her children, rather than being indicative of any prejudice; she’s aware of the negative attitudes within wider society but this doesn’t necessarily mean she shares them herself. I’m sure we all know that mothers can sometimes be quite ruthless in their thought-processes and actions when it comes to (rightly or wrongly) being protective towards their children.
However, she should certainly have undertaken much more thorough research (and thought the matter through more extensively beforehand, rather than “after the horse had bolted”) so that she could subsequently have made a genuinely informed decision.
I guess it also depends to some extent on what one’s priorities are, ie. whether one wishes to go against the grain and try to positively change society from within/from the ground up (which is very admirable and probably has the “moral high ground”), or whether one’s main aim is to be “practical” (perhaps ruthlessly so) and try to ensure that avoidable disadvantages are not conferred on one’s children. Very, very tricky topic. Extrapolated to the ultimate level, it also veers into the issue of genetic engineering and removing allegedly “disadvantageous” traits a la Gattaca.
This reminds me of those stories one hears about Hindu parents in India adopting Muslim babies and apparently bringing them up as Muslims. Some interesting overlaps with what Razib and others here have been discussing w.r.t what “culture” one should deliberately expose one’s adopted childen to in terms of their “heritage”.
This is purely based on direct personal experience, along with conversations with desi women here in the UK who also went to “white majority” schools, but I get the impression that desi women are on the receiving end of racism and prejudice significantly less than desi guys are in such environments. The latter seems to be much more of a “guy thing”; perhaps some kind of psychological “tribe” issue amongst males.
Also, regarding “male attention” for desi women, it may be due to the fact that for the average guy, a hottie is a hottie regardless of her ethnicity (unless they have some kind of fetish).
Yes Jai, that is exactly what I meant. I think that women are perceived as feminine regardless of their ethnicity, unlike men. (The famous complaint of Asian men that they are not portrayed as ‘masculine’, the stereotypical image is that of the asexual nerd. I think this goes for Indians as well as East Asians. Not sure how true this is in the UK though.)
yes, this (tribal male) thing must be one of the reasons why it is so hard to explain my experiences of being adopted to females.
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003721.html#comment81556
probably a weird coincidence (or not) most of my desi friends are females
Desi a state of mind or a reference to the place a person was born or relatives born? I believe that its chosen state of mind. otherwise you wouldn’t have things that are considered desi, you’d just be desi by what your origin.
what do you think?
from SM FAQ:
What does desi mean?
It’s slang for the cultures of South Asia and the diaspora. It’s similar to homeboy, paesano or boricua. Etymology: deshi, Hindi/Urdu for ‘from the country,’ ‘from the motherland.’ Pronounced ‘they-see,’ it’s the opposite of pardesi, foreigner.
shallowthinker: “Ohh please. Indian’s are more obsessed with light skin then anyone on the planet.”
Ravinder: “there is a deep rooted fixation for skin fairness in India. Look up the matrimonials and every second ad says something like ‘Wanted a fair skinned bride…’. The fixation for fair skin is further nurtured in Indian media (advertising and bollywood). How may dark skinned actresses (or actors for that matter) have you seen in Hindi movies? The media definitely potrays fair skinned persons as more beautiful and successful.”
You two are the most honest posters in this thread. Its amusing to see indians acting all offended by white racism, real or perceived, when indians are the most color conscious people around. Take the incessant insistence by all posters here that indians are “brownz”, when the reality is that the majority of indians are closer to black than to brown. Indians recoil from the word “black” as if they have been shot.
Here is an interesting article:
http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=051605113928
“There is this essential contradiction in being a South Asian, or a person of Indian origin, in America: on one hand the South Asian is perceived as being black by the majority white population, and on the other the South Asian is eager to be categorized alongside whites, as Caucasians.”
“Take for example an incident from 1929: as a result of the humiliation that he received from U.S. immigration officials, the poet Rabindranath Tagore was forced to cancel his fourth lecture tour….
Tagore explained his sentiments later by stating, “I arrived at Los Angeles, and I felt something in the air – a cultivated air of suspicion and general incivility towards AsiaticsÂ… I felt that I should not stay in a country on sufferance. It was not a question of personal grievance or of ill-treatment from some particular officer. I felt the insult was directed towards all Asiatics, and I made up my mind to leave a country where there was no welcome for ourselvesÂ… I have great regard for your people. But I have also my responsibility towards those whom you classify as colored people of whom I am one.”
“Another Nobel laureate, astrophysicist Dr. S.Chandrashekar of the University of Chicago, confessed to biographer Kameshwar Wali that he was subjected to humiliating experiences in America because of the color of his skin. Chandrashekhar was born in India, educated in England, and lived all his professional life in the U.S until his death in 1991.
In the 1930s Chandrashekar taught, conducted research, and collaborated with the United States War Department on the atomic weapons research project. He became the first nonwhite person to be appointed to the faculty of the University of Chicago. According to Wali, the chairman of the physics department summarily opposed the appointment of Chandrashekhar to the faculty “because he was an Indian, and black”. The dean, Henry G. Gale, also did not approve of the participation of the brilliant young Indian astronomer in teaching an elementary course in astronomy for precisely that reason.”
“President Lyndon Johnson was reported to have said while canceling the visits of the heads of state from India and Pakistan in 1965: “After all, what would Jim Eastland (the conservative senator from Mississippi) say if I brought those two niggers over here.”
“one second-generation South Asian-American recalls: My father has said in anger, more than once, that he is black in his coworkers’ and boss’s eyes.”
“It took someone like Professor Sucheta Mazumder of Duke University to acknowledge that for most South Asian immigrants the myth of their Caucasian racial origin forms the basis of their identity and political mobilization…..
Thus, instead of challenging racism, the early Indian-American struggle for citizenship rights became an individualized and personalized mission to prove that he was of “pure-blood Aryan stock”. Though victimized by white racism, which denied them citizenship, the South Asian response was equally racist, observes Mazumder. Instead of challenging the white man’s racism, the Indian immigrant responds with “How dare you assume your air of Aryan superiority over me when I am just as Aryan as you, even more so!” This was the substance of the Indian claim in the courts back in the 1920s and it is still the substance of many an Indian response to American racism, asserts Mazumder.
This mythography of “Aryan origins” has wide currency among today’s South Asian immigrants in America, says Mazumder, suggesting that this notion of white (Caucasian or Aryan) origin has led to a confused rejection of the color of their own skin.
This leads to an almost paranoid response to even being thought of as black. For example, Bharati Mukherjee, the noted Indian writer, complains: “I am less shocked, less outraged and shaken to my core, by a purse-snatching in New York City in which I lost all of my dowry gold- everything I’d been given by my mother in marriage- than I was by a simple question asked of me in the summer of 1978 by three high-school boys on the Rosedale subway station platform in Toronto. Their question was, ‘Why don’t you go back to Africa?'”
yes, maybe less recently, but this is probably one of the reasons why many Indian guys use Anglo names in the business world or shorten their name. To be one of the guys. While an Indian female name is looked at as being exotic and a great part of a company’s diversity. It was more common for an exec to try to pronounce a female name and suggest a nick name or just give up on trying to pronounce a male name.
(((Not talking about creditials only names here.)))
131 · Meena on August 24, 2006 07:12 AM · Direct link Yes Jai, that is exactly what I meant. I think that women are perceived as feminine regardless of their ethnicity, unlike men. (The famous complaint of Asian men that they are not portrayed as ‘masculine’, the stereotypical image is that of the asexual nerd. I think this goes for Indians as well as East Asians. Not sure how true this is in the UK though.)
The issue of adoption, especially inter-racial adoption really brings up some interesting points. To me, its the difference between the desire to pass on your genes or to have a child. I don’t have the scientific facts on it or anything, but I feel its the difference between people who choose to adopt versus the people who go through all kinds of IVF etc to pass on their genes. Granted, adoption isn’t for everyone, and it takes enormous amounts of willpower to accept a child who is not your own, genetically.
I have a friend, a WASP-y white woman who has adopted 2 children (boy and girl) from India. In all cases, they don’t look like her, whether its hair, skin color, height, weight etc. It doesn’t matter, those kids are more Indian than any of the kids I see at desi gatherings. They both speak their native languages, are constantly around brown people, eat desi food, wear Indian clothes, and know more about Hindu mythology than Pokemon. She told me that the kinds of feedback she got from people was like “oh you are doing a great thing”, like for humanity or something. But she said no, she is doing this as much for herself as she is for the children. Its not like she plucked them from the gutter and saved their lives. That is a dangerous mentality to have when you are adopting children who look different from you. Esp. if they are brown.
Seeing street children (as many boys as girls) in Mumbai, however, I think something would be better than leaving them in their current conditions- but for the right reasons. I do believe that these parents would need special “cultural integration” classes or something. Adoption agencies like Wide Horizons (http://www.whfc.org) offer things like that.
I think Lisa’s article reflects HER need to address the shame she feels for having a child that is dark skinned. She mentioned that she gave up sleeping, bathing etc for the baby, but isn’t that what a parent is supposed to do? Although, whether by birth or adoption, I’m sure being a new mom can conjure up lots of strange feelings about your child (including doubts).
Meena,
We used to have the same problem here in the UK until approximately the early 90s onwards, at which point huge numbers of the 2nd-Generation (mostly college students at the time) jumped on the gangsta bandwagon, along with dressing predominantly in black since it looks more “macho” and, admittedly, aggressive/intimidating. In recent years there has also been a marked increase in desi actors being portrayed in romantic roles (sometimes even lotharios) in some British television dramas; whether that’s played a part in changing mainstream perceptions or if it’s just a reflection of real-life changing attitudes is a tricky question. Maybe it’s a bit of both.
The Northie dominance of the UK desi population also means that, due to their physical appearance, guys here frequently adopt a “Latin Lover” persona in terms of slick attire etc — everyone looks like they’re in the Mafia — with varying degrees of success 😉
Of course, some desis here have taken the whole macho thing a little too far by blowing up trains etc…..So we’ve gone through the entire spectrum of perception in the mainstream eye, from “asexual nerdy victims” to “gangsters and bhangramuffins”, and now to “jihadis everywhere”…..
::: Its amusing to see indians acting all offended by white racism, ::: real or perceived, when indians are the most color conscious people around.
It would be useful not to confuse racism with the obsession for light skin as an attribute of beauty. The west is obssessed with blondes and tanned skin, and that is not really considered racism, is it? And if in India people start advertising for jobs only for light-skinned people, having segreated schools like there were in the west, then you can make the connection.
I never said I was without fault. But I don’t have to sympathize with people I think are wrong just because I’ve done things that weren’t so great in the past. I don’t sympathize with this woman because I think a lot of what she is going through could have been prevented if she’d gone beyond “oh, let me try and save this third world child from the mediocrity of her culture.”
Razib and a few others are right in that a parent can choose to raise their child as an extention of their own culture, regardless of race. And that’s their perogative… but if that’s what she wanted to do, why not just adopt a baby from eastern europe instead of trying to experiment with another persons life?
It WOULD do her good to make her circle of friends “darker,” but I sincerely wish she would have felt the need to do that before adopting. For herself, and not necessarily in preparation for adopting.
I try not to take discussions too far off the desi road, but I feel I need to explain why I see things so differently sometimes. My view is substantially skewed toward a black pov, so I go by the books and stories I have read and heard to guage how damaging certain things are. Put simply, black people just don’t assimilate to the level that other minority groups (in america) tend to. And 50 years after Brown V. Board, there are still black children who are quite fine with telling the world that the white doll is better than the doll that looks like them. These kids have black parents, and they STILL have color complexes… who knows how much worse it would be if they didn’t have parents who actually cared to raise them in a community that, while not perfect, will be the most likely to accept them as is.
Meenakshi (post # 137):
How did your white friend’s adopted Indian kids learn their native (Indian) language fluently? Most ABDs, born and raised in Indian households, can’t even do that. I’m really impressed, and I’d like to know how your friend accomplished that.
It’s clear to me that Lisa is a racist of the worst kind, and she got the child from another race to convince herself that she isn’t.
No – a racist is someone who confronts their internalized racism (which all of us have) and are PROUD of it. Maybe she did adopt the baby out of a misdirected sense of guilt, but motives don’t matter now; the baby is with her now, she still wants her – which a racist wouldn’t – and they both are going to have a LOT of growing to do. Lisa’s made the first step – acknowledging that she sees such things as problems and trying to work them out. It’ll take time.
Why is it that when white people claim to be colorblind, everyone else jumps on them and says they’re lying, but when someone comes out and says “yes, I was concerned about my skin color,” people jump on them and call them racist ? It’s not possible to not be one or the other.
Quoting from Gautham near the top of the thread:
From my experience, everyone has some race and color issues. This woman is one of those few who are willing to bring them into the open, and I think those are the only people who have a chance of getting over their issues. A parent who does not recognize his or her own inevitable race and color issues is more likely to unintentionally psychologically damage his/her adoptive child of another race.
I do agree with Gautham that:
Hi Amitabh,
My friend found a day-care provider that speaks the child’s regional language (Bangla). Plus the mom is learning the language too, because she is a physician and deals with a lot of people of South Asian origin. Granted living in a major city definitely helps.
I TOTALLY agree with you about many ABDs not knowing their native languages either for whatever reasons. The program I was working with in India provided volunteers from all over the world, many were ABDs that did not know how to speak their own languages. At the end of the day, it made a difference in how they were able to connect with the country and its people. (At least in Mumbai)
Amitabh,
I just mentioned that those ABDs who didn’t speak the language had a hard time connecting, but it was facsinating that many non indians were able to adjust much better than ABDs as well. Just something to think about, in the sense of what makes someone “identify” with a certain country. It ain’t just skin color.
Meenakshi,
Not surprising, to me. There are fewer (real or felt) pressures or expectations on non-Indians than on ABD’s to master or fit into the culture. If you are non-Indian, no one expects you to behave “properly.”
Ok, I think I need to figure this out once and for all, and since there are some ladies from the Af-Am community here, I’ll use the resources.
What is the whole deal with black women and their hairstyles? What exactly do black women (have to) do with their and why is it necessary to do so? And why is is so un-PC to talk about it?
UTB Deepa,
Actually, it was more about the ABD’s having expecations of India and not really understanding its own evolution in the years between childhood visits and when they went back to volunteer.
Non Indians, not having experienced India in an elite way as most ABDs do, through air conditioned cars and VIP treatment, just seemed to accept it as it was.
Picking on your word choice a bit, we don’t “have to” do anything with our hair. But society constantly tells us we need to “fix” it somehow. Whether it’s black and white celebs who only wear their hair in long, straight styles… the standard of beauty that says a woman is only feminine and sexy with long AND straight hair, or even other black/latino people who deride their own features in favor of a white-is-right mentality.
The process of straightening black hair can be done in 2 ways. The old school way is with a hot comb. It’s heated on a stove and raked through the hair… maybe once a week or so. The more preffered choice these day is with a chemical called a relaxer. It literally BURNS the hair straight. Often, it burns the skin as well. It smells terrible, and can lead to premature issues with alopecia.
Straightening hair for black people is like using fair and lovely in India.
I don’t think its not PC to talk about it. I think the majority of people just do not know. My best friend is East Asian and up until this year, she honestly believed my hair grew straight. I’ve tried to explain the hair issue to her, but I’m still not sure she totally gets it. Her family is still shocked, lol… though mine won’t stop talking about it either.
The topic may seem trivial on a surface level, but what it comes down to is an issue of self-esteem… and we all know that poor self-esteem can lead to poor life choices. I hope that makes things a bit clearer for you.
The most insulated Indian people I have ever met are from South Bombay- they literally have no idea what the rest of the country lives like, and many never speak anything but English.
LOL It’s funny how the Anglicized grotesqueries who parade about India’s “metros” live under the delusion that they’re somehow in touch with the “common Indian man.” But this sort of bigotry is all too common.
About a year ago my mom called me to tell me how horrified she was about a story she saw on the Dr. Phil show. Dr. Phil had a white middle-class couple on the show who had adopted a boy from India. They were unable to bond with him (primarily because he is “special needs”) and resented him so much that they wanted to “send him back”! My mom went on a tirade about how this child would have been much better off growing up in an ophanage in India. If you’re interested there’s some information on Dr. Phil’s about this couple — a lot of the detail that was aired on the show has been left out.
http://drphil.com/shows/show/431/ Click on “Unable to Bond”
^^^^
They deserve to go to jail.
You will find few racists that are proud of it, and therefore find rational justifications for those feelings. It’s somewhat disheartening that a liberal who went all the way to India to give a new life to someone who needed, is so concerned about something as superficial as skin color. I find her comments very insulting to my people.
You see, you don’t have to be colorblind and have black friends to be a non-racist. I mean, you acknowledge people that are blonde or brunette, that are pale or tanned in complexion… and that doesn’t make you racist. Why should anyone be a racist to acknowledge that indians have different attributes than whites? Racism comes into play when you can’t make a connection and feel disconfortable because of those differences.
Re: Dr. Phil show
That is really horrible. I think the husband is a brown man. He doesn’t say much of anything throughout the whole transcript. He just agrees that he doesn’t love the kid…WTF? Grrrrr….
From a quick look, it seems these two people thought they were picking out a microwave oven or lamp shade cover when choosing a child.
But on a more general note, I’m not so sure if one can make blanket statements and say that an Indian (or any non-white) child adopted and raised by white parents is definitely better off, as compared to how their life would’ve been in their home countries (orphanage, in country adoption, etc..). I’ll agree that it’s true in most cases though, however I think the phenomenon should be looked at more from the white parents’ point of view, as in, what’s their motivation? Is it a case of “Angelina’s doing it, and she’s oh so trendy”? Is there a dearth of european/american adoptees? I wonder what empowers them to think they could raise a nonwhite child in race driven society, as this one.
Of course growing up in a system of white privelage, will usually make white people think they are capable of doing and accomplishing anything, but most whites are unable to comprehend a non-white reality. (hell, most deny that a different reality even exists) So the concern is perhaps not for the material & physical care of the child, but more so the emotional and psychological care. How can a white couple impart certain ideas to a child about how he/she will be perceived by American society at large, when they haven’t experienced it themselves? The issue may not manifest itself with adoption of Indian children as much, as say African American children.
Gabe,
Why were you all “Its Been Real” (a la Breakfast Club or 21 Jump Street) and now are back? 🙂
LoL.
HMF:
I actually heard that the adoption process in America is more difficult than adopting from abroad. Not sure why. Plus the costs also differ depending on race of the child as well..
That’s interesting, so taking the path of least resistance? I wonder if the Indian gov has any stance on overseas adoption, I know the South Korean gov was trying to make efforts to curb it from their end.