A few weeks ago we discussed a new kind of camp for Indian children adopted by white American parents. Today, via a tip on the news tab, I came across an article on Alternet by a Jewish New Yorker who adopted an Indian baby as a single mother, and was somewhat taken aback by the darkness of her child’s skin:
The first photo I received of [Redacted] showed her with fair skin. I was surprised, because from what my adoption agency told me, the child assigned to me would be much darker. After I got over that surprise, I had another: I felt relief. Suddenly — guiltily — it was a comfort to know that she would not look so different from me, and even more important, that her light skin would save her from a lifetime of prejudice. But ah, the magic of flashbulbs. A few months later I received several more photos and gaped at them in shock. The baby was much, much darker. (link)
[Redacted] has, initially, a lot of anxiety to deal with about the gap between her skin tone and that of her adopted daughter (read the whole article for examples: the kicker is the diaper change). She gets over it, but is still often surprised by the fact that no one in her social circle — including her Indian and Black friends — is as dark as her daughter:
Very soon, my daughter will have a lot to process. She’s adopted, she’s the child of a single mother, she’s an Indian Jew by conversion. We spent the summer with my father in upstate New York, and she was nearly always the darkest child in music class, gymnastics and day care. In New York City, even Blacks and Indians in [Redacted]’s and my social circle are lighter than she. Over and over I see how light skin equals privilege. Now that I have become [Redacted]’s mother, I realize: We need darker friends. (link)
I’m sure there will be some folks who will be offended that [Redacted] is publicly stating some of these things she says in this article. I personally am not: she’s expressing the shock she felt along with her embarrassment about that shock, and describing how she got past it. Yes, her initial reaction to her baby’s skin tone betrays “racism,” but it looks to me like she’s recognized and dealt with it.
Still, I wonder what people think about the solution she outlines: “We need darker friends.” Is it really damaging to a child (the baby has grown up some now) not to be around anyone who physically resembles her? And wouldn’t it be slightly strange to seek out “friends” on this basis?
[Oh, and one more thing: the Times recently had an interesting article on the growing number of cross-racial adoptions in the U.S.]
Dharma Queen,
Okay, enough is enough. I’m going to nail this once and for all.
There are multiple threads here on SM where I have actually condemned other commenters for disparaging attitudes towards darker individuals (especially darker women) of all backgrounds, both South Asian and non-South Asian. Either you are unaware of this or, perhaps, you are conveniently ignoring this fact.
We can give you the benefit of the doubt or we can begin to make judgements about your own personality based on a repeated, consistent pattern of behaviour. Shall we do the latter, for a moment ? You regularly make remarks about multiple topics where you are partially correct, but also partially wrong. If someone points out the flaws in your logic or erroneous facts, you then attempt to backtrack but still do not admit you were wrong in your original assertion. In the worst cases, you then attempt to “turn the tables” by taking random, out-of-context statements by the other party and twisting them in order to “justify” your allegations against them, backed up by insulting, needling remarks about their “character”. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon amongst South Asians (especially the older generation, although many 2nd-Gen individuals also perpetuate this kind of behaviour), and it is also unfortunate that you yourself have decided to perpetuate one of the worst aspects of Indian culture in terms of the mental games people play and the psychological tactics they use when attempting to “win the argument”, regardless of whether or not they are morally & factually correct. Chaalaaki, badtameezi and ahankaar being the major causes; we all frequently see these displayed by some commenters of South Asian extraction on this blog as well.
If you have a grudge against lighter-skinned, sharper-featured Indian men because you have seen individuals fitting this description perpetuate negative attitudes towards their darker compatriots (again, especially towards women), then fine. That is your prerogative. It becomes a problem, however, when you subsequently project these precedents onto your perception of the motivations and attitudes of other people just because you observe superficially-similar comments on loosely-related topics, even though you do not know the other individual personally and, again, are perhaps conveniently ignoring contradictory statements which have been made by your “target” because this would undermine your assertions about him. Your perception of the other person is clouded due to your own previous life-history, and you view the matter through the prism of your own prejudices.
I have never used expletives towards anyone else on Sepia Mutiny (yet), but you are about an inch away from being the first person here towards whom I will use such language. I would hope that you have the humility and integrity to consider that you are wrong — dead wrong, in fact — and will not “retaliate” with an attempt at a “suitably devastating riposte”, either on this thread or on any others here where you directly or indirectly refer to me. Let us also hope that one of your “online girlfriends” does not turn up on this discussion forum again and support your stance in a misguided and inappropriate attempt at “desi female solidarity” where you further try to take out your grievances on what you regard as being a suitable victim.
Too long-winded again ? Fine. Here’s a summary: You are becoming a troll and I would be grateful if you could stop harassing me. Please go away.
well she sounds no different than an indian mother would be about lamenting about how dark her child is. except the indian mother would probably go out and buy gallons of fair and lovely and spend her lifetime castigating the child for ‘being so dark’
ha ha
Razib,
re: post #472
Thanks man. I’m glad that, unlike some other people I could mention, you have sufficient objectivity and knowledge of “all the facts” to be able to make a more accurate judgement-call on my personality and viewpoints.
Your ongoing banter with Shazam has been a guilty pleasure to read, although since he clearly has his own agenda to push and is quite willing to distort (and ignore) facts in order to achieve his goals, I’m unsure as to whether he’s worth anyone’s time here. Certainly not mine, anyway.
Amardeep – in point 4 – your response to Gautham – spot on.
Siddharth,
I really would be interested in your mother’s work, so again, please, what is her name? Or, the name of one of her essays/books? Thanks!
you have sufficient objectivity and knowledge of “all the facts” to be able to make a more accurate judgement-call on my personality and viewpoints
shrug no problem man, we’ve been posting here and getting into arguments for what, at least a year? we have disagreemants, and no one is spotless when it comes to using less than elevated tactics and drawing inferences about individual’s characters. we should strive for better, even if we all miss the mark.
re: shazam, i can’t believe that the individual is here as anything but a troll, i can’t believe that a genuine meeting of the minds between africans and south asians will be engendered by their constant denigration of south asians and droning accusations of self-hatred. i think we are all inadvertant participants in a game. let’s hope the umpires intervene soon.
reading this thread – gautham – hey buddy where did you grow up !”people are programmed from birth” – oh right so now we’re going down the socio-biological route..did you realize that was precisely the same sort of argument that has held up racism for yonks and yonks?..”black/non-white people are biologically inferior..we know this is true biologically..’ ha ha. Razib makes lots of good points – peers pulling in one direction and parents pulling in another is generally more of a ‘problem’ not specifics like ‘skin colour’ and other stuff. so whilst you may share the same skin colour and genes as your parents – if they were brought up in- say- india they might well try and pull you in a different direction to your peers in -say- america or britain – and that would be more of a problem as essentially you’re not sharing the same ‘background’ and life your parents had when they were growing up.
Ooo Jai. You mean business. You might actually use – gasp – an expletive?
If you weren’t so ridiculous, you might actually be worth responding to, point by point. In fact, I have no idea where most of what you are talking about is coming from. I have not been twisting perceptions and attacking characters (except, I admit, yours to some degree), and I have never garnered support by getting a ‘girlfriend’ to come onto this site. I have noticed that you repeatedly point our your fairness and the fairness of your ethnic group on this site, and have taken you to task on this on two threads (this one included). Apparently, my pointing this out constitutes ‘harassment’ – but if you think that you are somehow ‘nailing’ this issue by threatening me with – gasp – expletives, or by making generalized, unsubstantiated accusations about my arguments on the site, you’re wrong. Your length of time on this site does not give you some sort of immunity against criticism. And I will continue to apply such criticism where it is warranted.
Buddy, your anger gives you away.
OK, my two cents…I have spent a lot of time in the UK over the years, primarily interacting with the Punjabi population there, and I have to agree with Jai…overall, due to the combination of Punjabi genes and British climate, the 2nd genners tend to be on average considerably fairer than the stereotypical notion of ‘what desis look like’. Combined with sharp features, and the fact that few among them maintain the turban/beard anymore, many people would not think they look ‘Indian’. This applies to the same people in Vancouver and other parts of Canada too. Heck, for that matter, when Sikh kids from Queens (again, overwhelmingly without turban/beard) used to come to the desi melas in NJ, most of the people there thought they were non-Indians, coming to cause trouble. I have also spent time in village Punjab…due to intense sunshine and hard work outdoors, many of the people do have a ruddy complexion…but there again the height, physical build, and facial features, along with numerous individuals with blue/green/hazel eyes, set them apart from most Indians from other regions. These are just facts. I do not agree that the Gujaratis in the UK are particularly fair (as an aside,for some reason the Gujarati women in the UK seem to be a lot more beautiful than the ones here. I don’t know why that is (that is not a fact, just my opinion). That being said, YES there are plenty of dark Punjabis. Lots of them. Maybe about 50%. Someone pointed out Manmohan Singh and Harbhajan Singh. On average, a crowd of Punjabis will NOT look like a crowd of Pashtuns, for example, or a crowd of Kashmiris. But overall I feel Jai is correct in what he’s saying. Some people may not like it because it doesn’t suit their politics of ‘brown-ness’. But no matter how fair the skin, these people are still desi and as ‘brown’ (culturally, politically) as anyone else.
I’m punjabi and I’m in the middle end of the spectrum while some people in my family are lighter and others darker.I think the accurate mark for people from Punjab is, we look Punjabi. We don’t look like people from West Asia, because if we did, we’d be…West Asian. I know people in my family who look pretty impressive physically, and I know some West Asian people have told them, hey you’re like one of us. But thats whack, because, rather than that….if Punjab is such a great place, which it is, those people should be coming up to me, as a middle of the road typical punjabi complected person, and hoping beyond hope that I would mistake them for Punjabi. Like Jin says, y’all going to have to Learn Chinese
And this goes for anyone of any region, not just Punjab. If you’re from Assam, why not rep Assam hard? Because if you don’t know where you’re from, do you know where you’re at?
Come on people, let’s take this to 500 comments!
While I think Jai is a nice fellow and not a chauvinist, I think the Punjabi fairness talk that pipes up from time to time on this fora is getting disgusting. Guys, we honestly don’t care. 95% of the subcontinent is not Punjabi. In most parts of India you are just curiosities. I respect the great gurus, the egalitarian ethos, but you folks aint responsible for that, sorry to say. If youve created a Punjabi dominant society in the UK, good for you. Welcome to Guju-Iyer-Telugu land here in Amrika, boyz girlz and brownz.
Guju-Iyer-Telugu
hello, bongz in the house! don’t disrespect. here is a wiki list of famous brown americanz. loox pretty diverse to me.
Siddhartha —
Me too. Thanks!
.
That’s absolutely true. Although something like 60% of Pakistan is Punjabi. OK, I admit, I’m just trying to get to 500 comments.
wikipedia says 100 million punjabi speaker. sounds about right, so about 7.5% are brownz are punjabi.
My guess is Sara S. Mitter.
also, i’m in on the weekend at work, but, if someone is altruist, i suggest breaking down this list by ethnicity to get a sense of american browns. my understanding is that about 1/2 are gujarati, mostly patels, but the next largest number would be punjabis, especially if you included pakistanis in (though there are large sikh communities in the central valley of cali).
assuming that all the pakistanis are punjabi (not true, but close), and that all the sikhs are punjabi, i get 53% of british brownz being punjabi (i assume the non-punjabi/mirpiri pakistanis will be compensated by the exclusion of hindu punjabis from the punjabi total?).
In Jai’s worldview that must make pakistanis superior to indians! Thats where this color complex leads. Indians willy nilly accept a low status in the racial heirarchy by slavishly agreeing with this superficial standard.
I think it was the pakistani punjabi general Tikka Khan (not sure) who notoriously declared that east pakistani bengalis were “kala kuttas”, and that the west pakistani army of punjabis and pathans would improve their genetic stock by raping their women.
Thanks Manju: I think you’re probably right.
96 – Technophobic geek – thank you for that. brillianly well-said.
the assumptions about ‘culture’ are enormous – talk about ‘co-opting’ – perhaps people need to define what they mean about culture first. and talk about the glib talk of parenting..
in any case this is great material for research – thanks y’all
Thanks for the Wiki list, Razib – I’d never have guessed Engelbert Humperdink was desi! (I’m also, shamefully, trying to push comments over 500)
What bugs me about Engelbert is that his official site completely whitewashes his desiness.
r.k.khan – well in any case the Census is not the be all and end all of information – there are a hell of a lot of people who are the ‘result’ of inter-marriages and aren’t picked up in the Census because they’ve self-identified as white or black or asian instead of the mixed race box. in any case we know the mixed box has only been around for a while.
So does British singer Cliff Richard
one thing, anglo-indians (called eurasians in the 19th century) are culturally british. their religion is christianity, their mother tongue is english, etc. they also (stereotypicall) are very loyal to the idea of britain, which the old joke that they were the types to have pictures of queen elizabeth in their homes even after independence.
Horrible.
But these guys aren’t nearly so bad as Merle Oberon, who went to ferocious lengths to conceal her Indian ancestry in the forties. What’s weird about it is that from time to time someone pops up who claims to be Indian, and turns out not to be. Like Marlon Brando’s first wife. And I think Mata Hari tried to claim to be part Indian (not absolutely sure about her).
Thackeray, the guy wrote wrote “Vanity Fair,” part of the Western canon of great books – half brownz
one thing, anglo-indians (called eurasians in the 19th century) are culturally british. their religion is christianity, their mother tongue is english, etc. they also (stereotypicall) are very loyal to the idea of britain, which the old joke that they were the types to have pictures of queen elizabeth in their homes even after independence.
I think they are generally looked down upon by Indian brownz as ersastz types. Lots settled in Australia I think.
I think they are generally looked down upon by Indian brownz as ersastz types. Lots settled in Australia I think.
the feeling is mutual. i read and ethnographic report on relations between full brownz and the half community, the full brownz tended to have stereotypes of the halfs which were not complimentary, but the halfs perceived that they were admired by the full brownz. some of the full brown contempt, but i think a lot of it from elite half brownz is class snobbishness, the half community is of “lower class/caste” origins, the union of british soldiers and local women from deprived communities. more elite half-brown lineages, like the maternal side of prime minister lord liverpool (early 19th century) probably melted back into the british population before the rise of an endogamous half community.
if a more recent article (can’t remember exact date) is to be believed, humperdinck is now open to discussing his indian roots. he was quoted as saying he was interested in perhaps performing in india and exploring that part of his history. this represents a 100 percent turnaround from an american talk show from years earlier where he denied an audience member’s question about being born in india and said he was british. oh the times they are a changin. but what’s even worse is why indians in india would even care about these second-rate, mostly has-been singers/actors or whoever (whether they have indian connections or not) who “suddenly” discover they would like to perform in india. no one else really pays attention to them anymore elsewhere, but trust india to treat them like they are still huge rock stars or something.
with merle oberon, unfortunately those were the times – even Jewish actors etc. would change their names. however, the fact that she passed off her own mother as her maid is appalling. and then, as dharma queen points out, you have those like anna kashfi making dubious claims about their indian ancestry to impress brando. they love us, they love us not, they love us, they love us not…..
Um, is it really desirable to “out” folks with South Asian genes (humperdinck, etc), just because they don’t wear their heritage on their sleeve? Apart from the much-discussed elements (see above) of social/institutional prejudice they are/were reacting against, can we not also imagine that there is a complex personal story in each case–a story we are not privy to?
This reminds me of debates within the LGBT community about “outing” those who “failed” to come out of the closet.
The Subaltern Studies Group reminded us to be careful about blithely assuming the authorial position of speaking for the “other.” By the same token, should we not refrain from expecting every individual to “speak” on behalf of every group (social or genetic or cultural or whatever) in which they reside?
Perhaps a better option is to just leave these guys alone and concentrate on enabling people to have a range of identity options to choose from. While there is obviously much work to be done in this area, at least our range is larger and more fluid than in past decades.
On the other hand Sabu became a celebrity in Hollywood in the 1940s. I didn’t realize he also served in the US Airforce in WWII and was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross.Link
Razib, you linked to Punjabi language (Wikipedia) above; I was astounded to learn (although it makes sense when I think about it) that after English, Punjabi is the most-commonly spoken language in the UK. Wow!
hm. i guess that makes sense, only about 20% of welsh can speak welsh fluently from what i recall.
ohh. this reminds me of a scene in a tv movie i once saw…and as it turns out it is based on her life.
it stars that girl from ferris beuller’s day off, who (at least in that movie) looked uncannily like this indian girl with whom i saw the movie (ferris). sometimes when you put a halfie next to a fullie, you can tell they are halfies, although when they stand alone they look white. i wonder if she is a halfie.
I think that of all brown people, we on this blog should be more sympathetic to people like Anglo-Indians/Eurasians/half-brownz and so on. They probably faced issues similar to ours: cultural assimilation, descent from one culture while growing up in another, power relationships between the two cultures (DBCF – desi-born-confused-firang – anyone?). Each of them tried to deal with it the best they could. In that time, being white helped and being desi hurt a lot more than now, they had to take that into stride. They probably had fewer support systems than we do now.
DQ, I respect your views on most things, but this constant sniping at Jai is getting kinda old. I don’t know Jai personally, but usually he seems to bring up the fair skin thing only to make a point. And I am bengali, as brown/dark/black as it gets, before you accuse me of being fair-skinned etc. Please get over the fact that Punjabis are fairer-skinned and they are still ‘brown’, by this forum’s definition.
btw, i was the one who went over 500.
yeah, but i was the one who went over 512
i’ve always thought merle oberon and rekha have very similar facial features.
Siddharta’s mom’s book looks fascinating, I’m going to put it on my reading list.
Since we were talking about brownz going back, here’s a BBC article posted on the newswire. Now imagine if a couple of brownz took an adopted white baby back? That child would have issues too, I am very sure.
Technophobicgeek:
There is a big difference between people who may technically be half-desi, such as Siddhartha and DesiDancer (both of whom know a lot more than me about many things pertaining to India and are probably more desi than I am, and in reality are more desi than the majority of ABDs I know) and who embrace their desi side, compared to the community historically known as Anglo-Indians from India. You’re taking a generous view of that community, but for generations they have looked down on Indian culture, Indian languages (which is what really burns me) and Indian religions. They considered themselves British, period. They themselves were treated horribly by pure Brits, especially British women during the Raj. And it’s true that the Anglo-Indians probably never caused wide-scale harm to anyone. But their attitude was pretty reprehensible. It’s true that the times were different, and being Indian was in no way ‘cool’ when that community was forming (and for a long time afterwards), but I think it’s great, as Whose God Is It Anyway pointed out, that times are changing, and with India being considered a lot more hip, trendy, and cool these days, some of these people may be finally embracing the desi side of their heritage. But I’m not really sympathetic to a people who looked down on my ancestors at all.
600 comments, people! Nina, are you with me?
Very shrewd marketer that Siddhartha. Notice how he builds intrigue by use of secrecy, and the classic marketing ploy of being seemingly uninterested in you buying his product.
Good tips for picking up women too.
Amitabh,
much of what you say is correct in how the eurasian/anglo-indian culture has evolved. but please note, the reason that it grew up as an endogamous subculture in the 19th century was because of exclusion from both brownz and britz. i think it is fair to say that the half group tended to emulate the british in language, religion and identification, but, this is natural as they were the ruling class. the british rebuffed them as “blackies.” but, what if the ruling caste was south asian? would south asians have accepted them as kin? the lower caste origins of their mothers, and the lower class origins of their fathers, was not unknown. in many ways, the attitudes of anglo-indians/eurasians of exclusion, contempt for the Other and identification with the ruling caste is not totally un-indian, or, in-human. explanations do not excuse, but, i think they do mitigate.
compared to the community historically known as Anglo-Indians from India
Amitabh,
Some of them were/ are on the forefront of India in their fields: Ruskin Bond, Patience Cooper, Anthony de Mello to name a few.
And some of them were very poor and marginalized – often they were train locomotive drivers in indian railways, and therefore, the derogatory term “tommy bacha“.
p.s. unlike the “mestizos” in say the philippines the anglo-indians are peoples of modest means (e.g., railway workers), not at the top of the social heirarchy, so i think anger at them is a bit disproportionate, and more a proxy for more generalized issues.
That’s precisely the point, innit? If being Indian was (hypothetically) hip/cool etc a century ago, I’m pretty sure the Eurasians would have been trying to be more Indian and less British.
It is just extremely analogous to the ABD dilemma. With India getting better press now, it is becoming more and more easier for ABDs today to accept the Indian side of their identity (I did bring up this point on a previous thread, but got pounced upon by a some 2-gens claiming that India’s world status/perception had nothing to do with them). And who knows, if India becomes waayyy cooler than the US in 50 years, you might have ABDs trying hard to assimilate back into India. By your logic, you would have to hate them equally, no?
My point is that anyone trying to deal with multiple cultures (like us) is unfortunately, caught in the power play between those two cultures on the world stage. Who knows how you or I would turn out under those kinds of pressures? I’d still be somewhat generous to those people. We all try to present ourselves (to some extent) as favourably to the world, as possible, don’t we? Until the world is perfectly equal, we will continue to do the same.
Kush and Razib, I agree with your points. I encourage everyone to read the wikipedia article about Anglo-Indians that Kush linked to above (post #520). As an aside, the article mentiones that Russell Peters, the stand-up comic, is apparently of Anglo-Indian background. Wow, things really have changed I guess…
Henry Louis Gates has an interesting project called african american lives. He does DNA analysis to determine where the ancestors of certain black celebrities come from.
oprah is shocked to learn she has virtually no native american blood. as a kid, she was constantly told she had a lot of american indian in her. apparently, this was a favored background among blacks at the time. “anything but black” i think she called it.