It’s been a little while since we last had a good dust-up about illegal immigration. Thankfully the U.S. Government’s Office of Immigration Statistics has some fresh material for us to chew on. (Thanks to SAJA for the tip.) It has just released a report estimating the number of illegal immigrants residing in the U.S. in 2005 by period of entry, state of residence, and country of origin. Here are the big-picture findings:
Mexico was the leading source country for unauthorized immigration with nearly 6.0 million residents in the United States in 2005. El Salvador, Guatemala, India, and China were the next leading source countries, accounting for a combined total of nearly 1.4 million unauthorized immigrants. Among the 10 leading source countries, the annual average increase in the unauthorized population from 2000 to 2005 was greatest among Mexican immigrants (260,000). However, the greatest percentage increase in the unauthorized immigrant population from 2000 to 2005 occurred among immigrants from India (133 percent) and Brazil (70 percent).
Interesting! Illegal immigrants from India more than doubled in the last five years, the fastest growth of all source countries; and it’s not a trivial number, since India ranks fourth, ahead of China, in total number of illegals. Of course these estimates are complicated to produce — the study gives details of the methodology — but clearly we are looking at a substantial trend.
Back in April when the big immigration marches were taking place, we noticed that South Asian organizations, especially Indian-American ones, didn’t seem to be much involved, and a number of commenters argued that, by and large, illegal immigration wasn’t much of a desi issue. At a minimum, these numbers suggest that we think again.
Here’s a key question: Who are these new illegal immigrants? Where do they live, what do they do for work? Where in India do they come from? I know we have plenty of readers who work “in the trenches” who could share some insight, even if it’s imcomplete or anecdotal.
Beyond that, what does this massive rise in illegals from India tell us about the Indian economy, given that it occurred during the much-vaunted time of “India Shining?”
And what about the desi community and the organizations and leaders who claim to represent it? It may serve the public image of Indian immigration to keep the rise of the illegal population out of view, but does that serve the community as a whole?
wow interesting… who knew? 133% and rising!!??!
At a minimum, these numbers suggest that we think again.
my rejoinder would be that the issue is illegal immigration, not their origin (brown, white [e.g., irish], latino or black). if, as in the latino community, the presence of the undocumented is so pervasive that many (most?) people have family members or friends who are undocumented the issue of legality or lack of is obviously overridden by personal considerations and a recalculation of compassion. i don’t think that’s the case with browns, yet. i hope it won’t be at anytime in the future, and, in relation to your concluding comment:
It may serve the public image of Indian immigration to keep the rise of the illegal population out of view, but does that serve the community as a whole?
yes, i do think it serves the community as a whole to sweep this under the rug, because brown americans benefit from the perception that we are well educated, above-the-board and “smart.” if my name was raoul rodriguez and i looked exactly the same i suspect individuals would make different assumptions about me. you can complain how unjust it is, but that’s life in these united states. the number of undocumented from mexico is so great in relation to the basal number of mexican americans that there is an unconscious conflation between the two (both from the “anti-immigrant” and “pro-immigrant” side). i enjoy being assumed to be ‘indian’ because indians have a better SES profile than the tiny bangladeshi american community 🙂
I have a friend who is an immigration attorney. She is a Southern lady who gets clients from all ethnicities and nationalities.
She once told me that a lot of clients over the years have been “illegal” Indians who came to USA via Canada/ UK/ overstayed their visa. What stuck her that a lot of them were already very rich businessmen in hotel and other businesses in Amreeka but never legal. During Reagan era, there was a general amnesty, a lot of them came out of woodwork. She says she gets to go to weddings to these former clients, and they are very lavish.
I guess a poor illegal from India/ South Asia keeps themselves hiding for ever.
Siddhartha, remember “India Shinning” right now affects a small population in India. However, the illegals from India are not poorest of the poor like the ones from South America today but from lower middle class or even middle class may be overstaying tourist visa. You do need money to visit USA in the first place, and social network to help you hide and assimilate.
I guess a poor illegal from India/ South Asia keeps themselves hiding for ever.
i know some of these who were amnestied in ’86. they weren’t super poor, but they were doing unskilled labor work.
I never would have thought there are more Indian illegals than Chinese illegals. That’s quite a surprise.
Thats very interesting information !!! I felt strongly that Indian-American groups should have joined in with those marching in May and one of the guest bloggers here did participate in the rally. I commend her for that. I did it back than too.
When I was in grad school I worked at a Gas station for a about 2 months (along with another on-campus jobs). The gas station was run by a illegal Balochi guy who came to us from a Merchant ship and sneaked in and never went back. The gas station wasnt owned by him initially but it ended up in his hands (Its long story) After several months later when I bought a car and went there to get gas, I went in to say hi to the guy and saw another Desi guy working there. I found out that he also had come to US exactly like the Baloch owner, from a Merchant Navy ship and obviously illegal.
I have seen the extreme hard work that some of these guys do. I am biased due to this experience. Oh BTW, from my anecdotal experience, most of these people come from Punjab or Gujarat.
from the numbers, it looks like about 1 in 10 brownz [280,000, out of ~3 million brownz?] in amerika is illegal (btw, the brown increase really shot up in the last 5 years, china was considerably ahead of indian 5 years ago).
Beyond that, what does this massive rise in illegals from India tell us about the Indian economy, given that it occurred during the much-vaunted time of “India Shining?”
India adds twelve million people a year to its own population. Looked at that way, the entire 2.3 million member community here is about one-and-a-half’s month work. Trivial. Even if India were growing at 18% instead of 9%, it will be able to export people anywhere they’re welcomed.
I live in a community 20% Indian here in Jersey, where the old men and women sit on the stoops in the evenings chewing paan, and there are lots of illegals -all males- living together, doing odd jobs and sending money to their families back in India.
No wonder I see more and more “Khalistani freedom fighters” protesting “Indian occupation of Punjab” at Indian Independence Day celebrations in Fremont!
Corrupt greedy immigration lawyers can get fake asylum to any illegal desi immigrants claiming religious persecution, gender persecution (remember the 9/11 widow who said she wanted to stay in US because in India widows are tortured), Indian Christians claiming asylim saying their churches have been burnt (Dr.K.A.Paul is one such example).
Heck I even read story of Punjabi couple who are claiming asylum because they are “gays” and gays face persecution in India!
As long as Uncle Sam gives greencards and Social Security to these border hoppers, there will be steady stream of illegal desis to US.
Someone should inform Uncle Sam that Punjab had had open elections for last twenty years and Khalistan exists only in the mind of greedy immigration attornies of Canada and US.
interesting study. would be interesting to compare this 133 percent figure with the growth in the number of lawful immigrants from india over the same period.
i’m not precisely sure that i understand what claim you are trying to make, so forgive me if i’m misunderstanding you. i think you may be exaggerating the political and social dynamic within the latino community, though you certainly are correct that the class dynamic within the indian community does tend to feed a narrowly self-interested (and ultimately self-defeating) belief at least among some indian americans that the fate of undocumented indian immigrants and even of less privileged indian immigrants who are lawfully here — much less other vulnerable immigrant communities — is simply of no consequence to them….
…. and there it is! you yourself seem to be making a lot of assumptions about “the community as a whole” — how are you defining that? — and about the nature of undocumented immigration itself. (not to mention the implicit assumptions you make in that sentence about latinos.) “above-the-board”? it doesn’t sound like you have a very good sense of what has caused the numbers of undocumented immigrants to rise so dramatically in the first place. we should be resisting and reshaping the “above-the-board” discourse, not buying into it.
and even if it were justifiable, i have doubts about whether your proposed strategy of disidentification would actually work in the way you seem to hope it would. at a certain level — assuming I am understanding you correctly — it reminds me of this.
peace pp
Since you asked, my brush with illegal desi aliens listed below:
70% of what I have seen are Punjabis – they either cross from Mexico or come on visitor visa and never go back. Try to legalize claiming political asylum. Some of them are ex-militants, so there is a security angle here.(Remember how Air India Kanishka bombing came to bite Canada back when it indisriminately gave asylum to Sikh terr0rists in 80s and 90s?
15% will be Patels or Gujaratis. Again they already have established family in US (like Mexicans), so just jump the queue to join the family. Go through primarily fake marriage route to get legal.
5% Tamils – these guys claim to be persecuted Tamils from Sri Lanka. (it is easy to get political asylum if you say you are a Tamil from Sri Lanka). They will have a ready made sob story ready to convince the judge presiding over asylum case
5% Indian Christians – this is kinda new trend started when BJP ruled India. Suddenly some random attack on church was publicized as an organized political attack on Christians in India and many Indian Christians have started applying for political asylum in US. I know a nurse from Kerala who got greencard that route and now works as nursing aide. Her family is quite well off and they spent a lot on attorney. And oddly she goes to same ol India every year! Also some from Nagaland also settle in US through this “attack on Christians” route. (Nagaland is 90% christian)
Rest 5% – random assortment of Tibetians, Nepalis, Bangladeshis, Srilankans coming using Indian passport and then saying claiming politican asylum.
15% will be Patels or Gujaratis. Again they already have established family in US (like Mexicans), so just jump the queue to join the family. Go through primarily fake marriage route to get legal.
These are very common in Jersey. They often just put on the hat at their cousin’s Donut Shop or Krauzers (a 7-11 type store) and start working. No one notices 🙂
Christian illegals often get sponsored by their missions to train as “witnesses” and some just disappear, I’ve met two Telugu Christian guys who had a falling out with their sponsors and just disappeared into the ghetto.
belief at least among some indian americans that the fate of undocumented indian immigrants and even of less privileged indian immigrants who are lawfully here — much less other vulnerable immigrant communities — is simply of no consequence to them….
hand waving. what does an illegal’s fate have to do with me?
…. and there it is! you yourself seem to be making a lot of assumptions about “the community as a whole” — how are you defining that? — and about the nature of undocumented immigration itself. (not to mention the implicit assumptions you make in that sentence about latinos.) “above-the-board”? it doesn’t sound like you have a very good sense of what has caused the numbers of undocumented immigrants to rise so dramatically in the first place. we should be resisting and reshaping the “above-the-board” discourse, not buying into it.
no offense, but what the hell are you talking about? you imply i’m unclear, and you start dancing around with that hand-wringing-righteous crap. LOL. you want me to make an explicit assertion? i use big words to condense and simplify more complicated concepts (which shows to some people who disagree with me that i know “jack sh*it”). you use long sentences to say “i care about others and you don’t.”
sorry i’m not more polite, but i just had wine, hard to tolerate posing bullsh*t in that state 🙂
“community as a whole” => mean, variance skewness. look it up, i provided links.
brownz in the USA are not poor. those in brownland are. i don’t want too many poor brownz around because i makes me look bad, though since i’m not single i don’t care that much. on the other hand, i was born an oligarch in a third world country, but i don’t want to die as one. long live the republic!
because i makes me look bad, though since i’m not single i don’t care that much.
I’m at a loss. What does your marital status have to do with illegal immigration?
I’m at a loss. What does your marital status have to do with illegal immigration?
dude, i’m not married!
Please use the same moniker when posting multiple comments on the same thread. Thank you.
Easy. If there were many “poor brownz” in the USA, then when RtA is out on the town looking to hook, he’d be ethnicly profiled as one of them instead of the way he’s steotyped now…as “well educated, above-the-board and “smart”.”
open borders may have the unintended consequence of women giving RtA The Heisman. At this rate, he may even have to switch to brunettes.
you’re absolutely right, razib, you’re not even remotely being polite. “no offense,” but you should calm down, take a deep breath, and cool it with the name-calling. if i’ve misunderstood your point — which i noted up front might be the case — then surely there must be some civil way to tell me that. ditto if you didn’t understand mine.
and even if we simply disagree with each other, there’s no need to rant and rave at me like a drunk spoiling for a barfight. though if it’s the wine talking, maybe you should just sober up before we try to have a conversation about any of this. 😉
that actually wasn’t what i was saying. but unless i’ve misunderstood you, it seems like that might be what you are saying:
peace pp
he may ,even have to switch to brunettes
sorry, not down with mustaches 🙂 all a moot point, i’m not married, but i might as well be (not that there’s anything wrong with that).
look, if you want me to be straight, my point is simple and unnuanced: i oppose illegal immigration in all forms, in all colors. i don’t care if they were chinese, bangladeshi, indian, irish or mexican. the ethnic origin of illegals is totally irrelevant to me. to come to this country there is a process, and it is an onerous process, but it exists and millions use it every year. if you bypass that process you shouldn’t be rewarded, and you don’t deserve anymore compassion than any other citizen of the world. i can fully understand why someone would want to come to this country (or any other wealthy country), but being able to see someone’s viewpoint does not imply that you would behave as if their interests and your interests are coterminous.
i believe are the interests of the republic the population should be as educated as possible so as to be occupationally flexible. low skilled workers should be scarce enough so as to garner a high wage due to labor scarcity and so mitigate the problems which arise out of inequality those. these are utilitarian considerations which exist on top of the basic fundamental respect for rule of law.
low skilled workers should be scarce enough so as to garner a high wage due to labor scarcity
Low skilled is usually another expression for low IQ. The low IQ will probably never earn high wages due to the increasingly automated and technological nature of society. I wonder how many overly-qualified workers would pretend to be low skilled to take advantage of the wages due to the labor scarcity? How are we really going to get low skilled workers high wages? How high would these wages be relative to more common, but higher “status” occupations? In NYC, everyone wants to be a cop, but cops think that they are under-paid. They don’t understand that an oversupply cheapens the product.
To my mind, it will be difficult to have a situation where there is just the right balance of low-skilled workers: low skilled jobs that everything will work as imagined.
Razib
What you fail to grasp is that the person making judgements about “Raul Rodriguez” is making judgements about your brown-skinned self as well. It doesn’t actually matter that your name isn’t Raul.
I went to the rallies back in April, and I was sorely disappointed by the underwhelming support from the South Asian communities. What those rallies and marches were about (mainly the HR4377) absolutely affects all of us. Most importantly, by creating an hostile environemnt for immigrants overall. If you have the time and inclination, here‘s one example of how illegal-immigrant hostility, affects immigrants period. It requires Real Player.
Very few Indian Americans that I know see these issues as their own. Despite all of our common struggles with living our brown-skinned lives in an increasingly immigrant-hostile world, immigrant communities continue to fracture ourselves along ethnic and class lines.
The sharp spike in illegal immigrants from India is surprising. I would have thought that in the post-911 era, there would be harder, more stringet regulations and enforements placed on folks who are desi-tinted. But apparently, no. A rise in illegal immigration often tends to parallel a concurrent rise in legal immigration.
Perhaps I am mis-reading this. And there’s some other, less irritating point lurking in there somewhere and I missed it. The hardest work I’ve ever done was waitressing. As anyone who has waitressed will attest.
From Mutiny’s Sitemeter it almost seems that the audience is 1/4 based in India (for which i notice a wide varity of states and cities; some more than others tho) and some other significant figure based elsewhere abroad (aus., canada, etc.;)
Perhaps I am mis-reading this. And there’s some other, less irritating point lurking in there somewhere and I missed it. The hardest work I’ve ever done was waitressing. As anyone who has waitressed will attest.
Low skilled “hard work” isn’t usually cognitively challenging “hard work” work. Does that clarify things a bit, sonia? I didn’t get what you meant by “irritating point”.
What you fail to grasp is that the person making judgements about “Raul Rodriguez” is making judgements about your brown-skinned self as well. It doesn’t actually matter that your name isn’t Raul.
really? give people some credit. we don’t “all look the same.” at least not the people i know, but perhaps they are the select few. totally irrelevant since they’re who i know and experience daily.
Very few Indian Americans that I know see these issues as their own. Despite all of our common struggles with living our brown-skinned lives in an increasingly immigrant-hostile world, immigrant communities continue to fracture ourselves along ethnic and class lines.
no! many of us do not share your perception that we do have “common struggles” by dint of our brown skin. i’m going to sleep, and will be at work tomorrow so probably i won’t pipe up on this thread anymore. i want to clear i don’t mind if brown people get involved in immigrant rights, to supporting latinos and undocumented, or whatever. i really don’t care, we all make our own choices. but, i do object to the contention/implication that as brown people we necessarily must make common cause with group/movement X to further our own goals. i don’t hold that as an individual, but neither do i hold that for those with more communitarian values. i don’t mind when left-leaning brownz do make pleas for social justice on a broad, general, platform for justice for all. what really irritates me is the slip into ethnic appeals as “people of color” or “brown skinned solidarity.” on the one hand people belly-ache that white people perceive as all the same, but on the other hand some want us to march in lock-step toward their political tune and enlighten our narrow-minded selves.
Ah, so you are familiar with the argument that perhaps a little less “those people over there” isn’t gonna hurt you. Because god forbid, we have “brown-skinned solidarity”. You don’t have to lock-step into any tunes, but gaining perspective? It’s not such a terrible idea. Actually, I believe racism affects everyone, not just people of color. Racism demeans and weakens all of us. But those affects are clearly also tempered by priviledge.
I am curious about one thing. Do you actually believe that the person who looks at someone Hispanic and thinks, “ahh, he’s illegal/lazy/can’tspeakenglish/whatever” somehow looks at you and thinks glowing, pretty thoughts? And if they do that that is “giving them credit”? In what? Diversifying racism?
HereÂ’s a key question: Who are these new illegal immigrants? Where do they live, what do they do for work? Where in India do they come from?
From my personal experience, most of these people actually came over to the US legally (on a tourist visa) and then overstayed on their visa. They work in gas stations, motels, small businesses and the older ones just stay home. I dont believe they have the same support system the Mexican illegals have access to as the Indian community in general finds it difficult to identify with these people, even though most of them were not really poor in India. Most of these people are hired by Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs and other immigrant business owners. They work an ungodly amount of hours, almost always get paid in cash, have no benefits and are almost universally mistreated and taken advantage of by sleazy desi/arab business owners.
I know of two Indians right now who are in this position and they have approached me to negotiate with their employers as the employers have crossed all norms of decency and are literally subjecting these two guys to involuntary servitude.
razib, i think that your description of the economics and sociology of illegal immigration is somewhat incomplete, empirically speaking, but this issue has been discussed to death around here (and i have work to do as well) so i won’t persist. suffice to say that the reasons why there are large numbers of undocumented immigrants are a whole lot more complex than the mere notion that 11 million people are “bypassing the process.”
just for the moment, let’s never mind “people of color” and talk only about indians. i have a sincere question, if you care to engage it: given what you are saying here, at what level does it make sense for you to be talking about “brown people” or an “indian community” at all? the community is more than central tendency (by the way, thanks for the condescending math lesson about mean and variance) — and your estimate of 3 million Indian Americans is too high, which means that the undocumented are a greater percentage of the Indian American community than perhaps you are estimating. so if you are defining a significant percentage of the community as incompatible with your interests, what does that do to the notion of community for you? why bother talking about “brown people” and “the community” at all?
just so there’s no confusion, none of that is meant to be a personal attack or a demand that you sing in lockstep with anyone’s political tune — i really am just sincerely interested in trying to understand where you are coming from. and if i’m misstating or misunderstanding where you are coming from, then please feel free to let me know that, but only if you’re sober and willing to avoid the name-calling rants. 😉
**
one other issue that would be interesting to know more about — to what extent do the increases in the numbers reported in this study result from changes in methodology? i have an offhand sense that undercounts were more severe in calculating these numbers for south asians in earlier periods. but that’s just an offhand recollection — perhaps someone here has more concrete knowledge.
sonia,
you’ve made many good points. this one here i think is key. i believe that over the long haul it’s true, although hopefully someone with real data/social-scientific insight on this, not suppositions and generalizations, can tell us more.
The number of Indian Americans increased by approximately 106 percent, as I recall, during the 1990s — not sure about the 2000-05 period, but that’s the trend line. Would be interested in seeing the numbers for 2000-05. And I think Sonia’s insight is correct — migration patterns involve highly complex and intricate processes involving a whole host of “push” and “pull” factors, and if we’re seeing increases in illegal migration, it wouldn’t be a great surprise if those increases were going hand in hand with increases in legal migration.
Here is some data on immigration and non-immigration admissions after 9/11, though not broken out for Indians, and only through 2002 — immigrant numbers have remained steady, while non-immigrant numbers have declined. These data are only through 2002 but I don’t think that trend has reversed to any considerable degree since then. One interesting juxtaposition: temporary, non-immigrant admissions have gone down, while apparently the number of undocumented has increased.
One other thought about the interesting paradox that Sonia notes, which might actually seem more plausible upon further reflection. It may be that precisely because of more stringent regulation and enforcement since 9/11, individuals whose presence might have been lawful in earlier moments in time might now be deemed “illegal” in greater numbers, just as an artifact of changed policies. I certainly don’t know that to be the case, but it’s a plausible hypothesis for it to be a contributing factor. That kind of dynamic is precisely what has contributed to our three-decade supposed “crisis” of illegal Mexican immigration — before 1965, there were no numerical restrictions on immigration from the Western Hemisphere and an extensive set of government programs designed to bring Mexican workers here lawfully in large numbers. The 1965 act, which obviously eliminated racial barriers in other ways, suddenly created a numerical cap for the Western Hemisphere without regard to the economic and social realities that had developed in the meantime — the numbers of “illegal” Mexicans increased sharply after that, but the actual realities of migration patterns from Mexico didn’t really change all that dramatically during the post-1965 period, at least not until the late 1980s and 1990s (and even then, the changes in those patterns may well have been partially in response to our laws disrupting what had by then become a stable system). It’s not purely rhetoric, therefore, when Mexicans and other immigrants say “we didn’t cross the border, the border crossed us.”
(If you’re interested in more on post-1965 US-Mexico migration patterns, have a look at the extensive work of Douglas Massey and his colleagues.)
peace pp
Do you actually believe that the person who looks at someone Hispanic and thinks, “ahh, he’s illegal/lazy/can’tspeakenglish/whatever” somehow looks at you and thinks glowing, pretty thoughts? And if they do that that is “giving them credit”? In what? Diversifying racism?
oh, it’s much more complicated than that. look, when i go to california there are many small brown men who speak broken english who are prominent in service jobs. if someone encounters these men day in and day out (i don’t, i don’t live in an area where they are prominent yet), you begin to form a mental “protype” and reflexive associations with small brown men. in contrast, you see taller, somewhat different looking brown men, perhaps dark skinned on average with different features, working in IT jobs, etc. in a past day these would be “coolies.” today not so much. human minds make automatic associations and a lot of cognitive processes are “under the hood.” racism isn’t just about conscious categorization and ideology as the implicit association tests show, it is about responses to repeated inputs.
anyway, names do matter. i’ve see white people whose names are latino become “non-white” automatically. a lot of this has to do with categorization, prototypes, schemas, etc. my goal is simply to make sure that these prototypes and schemas remain beneficial to me.
what does that do to the notion of community for you? why bother talking about “brown people” and “the community” at all?
frankly, i don’t have much of a stake in the notion of community. “brown people” are relevant because there empirical similarities, and there are perceptual similarities (e.g., people perceive us as “brown”). but i have been on the record that i think it would be best if brown people intermarried and disappeared ASAP. but that’s my personal preference, it won’t happen anytime soon.
That’s an interesting point I hadn’t thought of before.
Interestingly, the NY Times and other papers were reporting a non-trivial return of highly skilled immigrants to India in the early years of the decade, people who took paycuts because the lifestyle in urban India had improved, which lead some people to believe there would be a drop in the net population of IAs. Obviously that hasn’t panned out. At this rate, there might be 4 million browns counted in the next census!
According to the American Census Bureau, in 2005 there were 1.4 million Indian-born in the USA, 250K Pakistan-born, and 120K Bdesh born.
In general, two-thirds of Asian-Americans are foreign born, giving a probable max Indian-origin pop of 2.1 million, 375K Pakistanis, 180K Bangladeshis. (or less, as the proportion of foreign born is probably higher among desis than the general asian-american population)
Its OK to support South Africa’s apartheid govt. by the US, officially. Its also OK for US to ELECT apartheid supporter a0hole as VP, but not OK if you say anything about the white people’s good war. Thats the only real war you know, rest all black and brown people’s wars dont mean sh$t. Dont you get it. And yes, give up that Swastika too. I dont care how many milleniums you used it as an auspicious symbol.
OOps wrong thread. Admins please delete #35.
This guy claims approx. 2.3 million IAs based on 2005 state census data – but I can’t find that data. In any case its a big jump from the 2000 census.
One isse that finds no mention here (since it doesnt affect ABCD’s much) is the new wave of OBC reservations in India. In the past these reservations (extreme form of “affirmative action”) was limited to SC/ST’s, but now about 1/2 all seats in elite educational institutions will be reserved for SC/ST/OBC’s.
I predict a massive increase in Indian students in the US. Previously people who would move to the US for graduate studies will now do so for their undergraduate studies as well. Indian’s middle class students now have the advantage’s of: 1) better recognition in the western universities 2) rising income in the middle class can support students studying in the US. 3) many no have family members in the US and a social structure to support them here.
Most of these students will stay back in the US, leading to fresh surge in immigration of the best and brightest Indian students into the US.
Sorry:
many no have family members in the US and a social structure to support them here
should read:
many now have family members in the US and a social structure to support them here.
I’m a white American, and I find it disturbing that some on this board would openly embrace illegal immigration of Latinos in some sort of all-of-us-against-whitey battle of ethnic interests. Razib is the honorable exception.
To pro-illegal immigration supporters: you are creating a consciousness among white Americans whose consequences may be hard to control. Not good.
I don’t see any posts that embrace that position. Certain comments just pointed out the fact that illegal immigrants, especially those of color, might have similar interests and be facing the same problems.
I’m not sure what you mean by this.
Plus, I don’t think anyone has said that they are a “pro-illegal immigration supporter.” A belief that the system is broken and needs fixing does not imply that one is embracing illegality. It only implies that one is embracing reality.
Nothing, we didn’t already know though conventional means.
GDP per Capita of the USA $40 100 GDP per Capita of Mexico $9600 GDP per Capita of Brazil $8100 GDP per Capita of China $6000
Mexico is richer than most of the world’s population. Most of the people advocate illegal immigration on a humanitarian basis don’t seem to understand this.
If India continues to grow at the current rate, it can hope to be a Mexico (in terms of standard of living) in 15 years. If it adopts regressive economic policies it will become a Bhutan in 15 years. If it does nothing it will remain much the same as it is today.
Siddhartha, did you have a particular supposition in mind when you posed this question? The correlation actually isn’t necessarily all that surprising to me, since waves of migration often are stimulated by growth and development in sending countries. It’s one of the great myths about migration that lack of development or high population growth are the most important factors that stimulate migration — from Douglas Massey:
And this just scratches the surface on the factors that go into the social processes involved. So if we have been seeing large-scale increases in migration from India, it’s not necessarily because the Indian economy is faltering behind the “India Shining” facade. In other words, even if the 1990s liberalization had been kinder and gentler, it might not necessarily have dampened the factors that stimulated migration to the United States and elsewhere. There are too many other factors involved.
(Though again, I’m not actually sure from your post if you meant to be suggesting that — it sounded like you might be, but I wasn’t quite sure.)
The US-Mexico experience provides a good illustration of this dynamic — a really digestible, easy-to-follow analysis of these issues (also by Massey), focusing on the US-Mexico dynamic and helpfully discussing five common myths about immigration, can be found here.
nope. other than the supposition that by posing a question and framing it in an interesting way, i’d get to hear wisdom being dropped by smart brothers like you…
Why should the surge in green card wannabes continues to grow? We are part of particular country, religion solely because we were born into that community, its far from being a choice – more like an unfortunate occurance. I am a engineering student and since my pubes I have chased the American Dream. I want to believe my willingness to adopt a different nation/culture and contribute to it bears enough weight to overcome the unfortunate providence of my being desi. I know as a fact there are thousands like me. The reason is ‘identity crisis’. This country may be progressing but being part of a so called majority community that has been enslaved by foreign powers for over a millenia and is still an anathema to utter its name (like I will not) I have moved from one ideology to another trying to ‘fit in’ and find some pride and sense of past achievement and belonging. Sorry, but ‘Indian’ is just an artificial 60 yr old construct and hodge podge of imported secular ideas that doesn’t work for me and a lot of people. Finally I find I am more at ease when I am compulsively eating fast food and cheering America’s devastation of anarchies. To me, America represents the youth in me which isn’t afraid to stand up for what it believes in and to be proud of itself, but is being held back.