Gautam Malkani, the author of Londonstani, has an Op-Ed in today’s New York Times that contrasts the atmosphere at the recent London Mela — a Brit-desi music festival — with the narrative of British South Asians as disgruntled and uninterested in assimilation. Malkani describes a desi culture that is truly British, and the improvements in understanding and exchange between Brit-desis and non-desi Brits — points that are often made here by members of the Sepia Mutiny UK massive like Jai, Bong Breaker, Red Snapper, Midwestern Eastender, and esteemed visitors like Sunny from Pickled Politics.
You’ll want to read the whole article: it’s short, well-written and chock full of observations and interpretations that I am sure will provoke many reactions. Here are some of the key paragraphs:
… When I was growing up in Hounslow in the 1980Â’s, these festivals used to be parochial, ethnically exclusive events. But in recent years they have become racially diverse. More important, they are no longer really festivals of South Asian culture; they celebrate British South Asian culture.
Those who stayed at home, however, were given a very different view of the state of multicultural Britain. The weekend newspapers were crammed with apocalyptic warnings about Britain’s failure to integrate its South Asian youth into mainstream society — a failure that, in light of the recent foiled terrorist plot, again appears to have left young, British-born South Asian men so disenfranchised that they are prepared to carry out mass murder against their fellow citizens.
Since the London bombings of July 7, 2005, conventional wisdom has held that when it comes to racial integration, Britain has botched it, and that our long-standing policy of promoting multiculturalism has kept us from sustaining a common, over-arching culture and national identity toward which different races and religions can feel loyal. Today it is widely accepted that there has been a trade-off between the promotion of diversity and the nationÂ’s social cohesiveness.
ItÂ’s a pity that so few of these columnists ever attended a summer mela or have any feel for our thriving desi beats scene.
It may seem absurd to focus on British South Asian hip-hop artists in the context of the threat of planes being blown out of the sky, and there are of course differences between the experiences of British Pakistani youth and British Indian youth. But because our policy of multiculturalism sometimes appears to have failed so spectacularly, we need to recognize the underappreciated — and underreported — ways in which it has succeeded.
Again, do read the whole piece. It’s an important perspective to put forward, not least for Americans who are just now tuning into the dynamics of South Asians in Britain and doing so through the lens of “homegrown terrorism” and media reports on extremist imams and alienated youth. I will be curious to read the reactions from our UK contingent to this article, as well as from everyone else.
Though he doesn’t munch on Cucumber sandwiches in public, citing Monty Panesar as an example of someone not “selling out” is absolutely premature. Monty’s career is at a promising, but nascent, stage. As a slow left-arm orthodox spinner, in order to stamp the seal of originality on his career and preventing it from slipping into the mainstream stereotype, he needs a mystery ball. In the recent past, South Asian right-arm spinners have introduced the “doosra” and made it their own. However, no left-arm spinner in world cricket has a credible “wrong un”; most just have the arm-ball for surprise.
Monty must look upon this as an opportunity and he must work hard and invent a left-arm spinner’s “doosra” which, to avoid “selling out” can be Christened Sikhed the “theesra”. Also, Monty needs to ensure that his batting does not improve any further; any more, and he would be turning his back on generations of South Asian spinners who have seen batting as a distractive prelude to the important business of bowling. Fortunately, his fielding is definitely entwined in strong and unyielding South Asian roots and looks set to become a unique aspect of his cultural identity. Without the “theesra”, Madhsudhen Singh Panesar will be remembered by his South Asian peers as yet another Saps, Ponce, or Batty.
One last thing; our Harbajan will whip your Monty any day;) Peace!
Malkani does not CELEBRATE it – he represents it. It’s real, it exists – guess what? Teenage boy-men are often sexist, homophobic and overtly macho, of all backgrounds.
But I’m just trying to stop myself laughing at RK Khan’s self declared arbitration of righteous morality in the light of this, his mendacious false dichotomy between his horrific version of desi manhood and psychotic ascription of western culture as rancid and trashed, the vicious sadist who declares the need for hitting women and keeping them on leashes and in burqa’s. What an abject psychology.
What I’ surprised people haven’t picked up on is the sexist and shallow nature of the desi male youth culture that Malkani is celebrating.
Well actually, the book deconstructs this. This, from when I interviewed him:
http://www.asiansinmedia.org/news/article.php/publishing/1342
So I wouldn’t say he is entirely unaware of the sexism inherent in this sub-culture. But he sees it, as I do, as a natural reaction to the emasculation of racism. In time this will change. In fact we, as second/third generation British Asians have to change this ourselves.
Ok the HTML came out a bit wrong. The last paragraph is mine. The few paragraphs before that are quoted from the interview.
Are there any eighteen year old boy-men from London of any racial background who when they get in a gang with their friends, don’t enagage in banter about girls and pass the occasional homophobic comment? Being that age is all about being aggressive and asserting masculinity, especially in a tough city like London. When you grow up, settle down, your aggro ends too.
This is what it is like for all young British men, Asian, white and black. If anything, I thought Malkani dwelt on it too much, and turned it into racial anthropology, when all it is, was boy-men acting tough in a tough city.
Maybe in that light you can read his work as a kind of morality play and deduce from it that he is putting forward a recipe like this:
When you read Londonstani as celebrating or suggesting “it’s okay to be obsessed with fast cars and fast girls”, you sort of miss the point, as if a novel should be a set of instructions or a design for life.
Sure. Everything comes down to ‘identity issues’ at some point. How helpful it is to categorise this particular extreme malfunction (blowing yourself up on a train) in the context of ‘Asian identity issues’ of the most benign kind is open to question.
Very amusing.
RC:
What’s so amusing about that? Obviously the touristic spots in London or the places that well-heeled desis would visit are not ‘tough’ but the neighborhoods where many Sikh and Muslim youth grow up are quite tough (albeit not as bad as parts of Brooklyn or the Bronx).
Tashie:
The lyrics of most bhangra songs are not only as you describe but also casteist and encouraging of alcoholism as well. So what? I’d rather have that than have the kids lose their culture, language, and identity and become more ‘sensitive’ but completely de-ethnicized. More to the point – these are working class kids, not very well educated, and I don’t think anyone is going to get them to stop celebrating this culture. What matters to me is that the language used is still very pure Punjabi.
Whats amusing is that I am surprised that why would people all over the world be lining up to immigrate to a “tough city” like London. I am not aware of people lining up to immigrate to Delhi.
A lot of people have a romanticised view of how “tough” their life was, so that it can be shown that they have overcome adversity. Bill Orielly tried that by claiming to have come from a “tough” part of the city he grew up, which apparently was a fabrication. When Al Fraken pointed it out, they had a high-school-esq confrontation which was televised live on C-span.
Anyways, “tough” is exteremly relative term and people just throw it around very easily. Ask your lower middle class cousins or relatives in any Indian city what tough is.
RC:
You’re right, there are different kinds of ‘tough’, and it’s all relative in any case. I’m aware that urban India can be a very tough place too, especially for lower SES groups. Village India can be very rough and tumble too, with fights breaking out all the time. People moved to London for economic opportunity, period.
RC
Life is tough in parts of London. Racial tension, gang violence, crime. Life is tough in other places too. One does not preclude the other.
RC,
London is a fantastic city to live in if you are a highly-educated professional (or generally well-off, one way or another).
London is necessarily so nice if you are undereducated, underemployed, and have an overly ghettoised mindset that will prevent you from being able to achieve success in the mainstream society.
Major typo in my post #63 (Admin — please remove previous post, at your discretion) :
Correct version:
RC,
London is a fantastic city to live in if you are a highly-educated professional (or generally well-off, one way or another).
London is not necessarily so nice if you are undereducated, underemployed, from an ethnic minority, and have an overly ghettoised mindset that will prevent you from being able to achieve success in the mainstream society.
Amitabh,
I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree with you this time. As far as I’m concerned, being a better human being should be the priority, not necessarily being “as Punjabi/Indian/etc as possible”.
If the people concerned manage to simultaneously maintain the positive aspects of their background (and eject the negative stuff), that’s the icing on the cake and a nice bonus.
“Culture” isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of life. Being a decent human being, however, is.
jai,
amen!
R.K. Khan’s blog is… how can I put this??? Very weird!!! What is it your business if desi women are involved in porn? Are we desis all supposed to fit into one little model minority box. Also, I would have some compassion for those poor folks b/c the porn industry exploits desperate, young teens/women… or haven’t you heard this?
.. .. Because i feel that it is depraved and blackening, not only to them but to myself. South Asians just do not behave in such manners, or so it was my belief.
Also, it is correct that the porn industry is exploiting the vulnerable, but, as I’ve read, in all too many cases women see this as acceptable behavior. Also note that this porn industry is very enmeshed with american and other western business interests. You will often notice that western males are the honchoes behind this strain contamination. i remember reading on this from 2002 or so, so I don’t remember the addresses or anything.
“Culture” isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of life. Being a decent human being, however, is.
and I very much concur with you there sir, but all too often it is the culture that is responsible for human indecency. Sometimes culture makes being a decent human being an impossiblity, or a desperate struggle.
Certainly the sadistic culture that exclaims the need to whip women and keep them chained to the home and forced to wear a burqa and have to bow and scrape to every whim of their male relatives springs to mind in relation to your statement.
Someone who would say things like this:
Jai:
You’re right, I can’t disagree with you there. Being a good human being is far more important than adhering to a particular culture. That’s a lesson that kids’ parents, schools, as well as religious and community organisations have got to get across to them (and which has been neglected). I do however feel that Punjabi (more accurately Sikh) kids in the UK have managed to do what NO other ethnic group (to my knowledge) has managed to do…keep their ancestral musical culture (and associated language) alive and vibrant into the 2nd and even 3rd generation. Keeping their inherited indentity relevant to their lives. I remember being at a desi mela in New Jersey a few years ago. There was a Bangladeshi DJ from Paterson (a town with a large population of Bangladeshis). He was playing a lot of hip-hop, there were many desi kids including a large number of Bangladeshis, all dressed (and talking) like young urban black kids, with doo rags, etc. dancing to rap music. It was clear that African American urban culture had become these kids identity, at least to a significant extent. Then at a certain point, he started playing bhangra (from the UK), and all these Punjabi kids moved into the main dance area, dancing bhangra moves, singing along with the lyrics of the songs, etc. I felt that, in comparison to the Bangladeshis, these Punjabi kids really had something of their own going on, and to celebrate, not just a borrowed hip-hop culture. To me that is quite an achievement and to be lauded. I agree that sexism, racism, casteism, alcoholism, etc. are bad in any context.
keep their ancestral musical culture (and associated language) alive and vibrant into the 2nd and even 3rd generation
a lot of black music does probably have origins from the west african milieu. more in places like haiti than the USA, where scot-irish celtic influences were important in creating a synthetic poor black/”white trash” musical culture which gave rise to various genres (e.g., blues, jazz, rock, rock-a-billy, country, etc.)
and i point out the black example because they kept their musical tradition through slavery and the lash and lynchings. props to punjabis and their MCes, but a little perspective 🙂
Razib:
As a fan of blues music in my younger days, I am well aware of the saga of ‘African survivals’ in African-American music through the ages…and I know that there was active suppression of African musical forms by white society for generations…most of the overt African stuff (especially the famous western African drumming styles) had no choice but to disappear, and re-emerge as subtle rhythmic and melodic elements in new hybrid musical forms. The blues scale, as well as the call and response form of much African American music, derives from African traditions. In Jazz, the African touches are just as strong but even more subtle. I have full respect for this phenomenon. However, I don’t think it’s very comparable to what the Punjabis in the UK have done (in different centuries, different circumstances, and with different histories and different technologies available for cultural dissemination). Granted, no one was suppressing Punjabi culture, and they had full freedom to maintain and develop their own British-Punjabi hybrid culture. My point is simply that many other immigrant groups who have had that opportunity, have nonetheless failed to do so. Part of that is because their original ancestral culture did not have the fun appeal or the strength to remain attractive to the new transplanted generations.
Part of that is because their original ancestral culture did not have the fun appeal or the strength to remain attractive to the new transplanted generations.
LOL. dude, i know what you’re saying, but it but sounds patronizing and jackassish to say it that way 🙂 “our culture is just funner!.”
Razib:
It may sound patronising (or jackassish) but I think there’s truth to it. Most people will rather do something fun and what they feel to be ‘cool’ than something they find stilted and boring (or corny). Why did ‘disco-dandia’ never really take off amongst the Gujarati youth in the West the way that Bollywood and Bhangra did? Why does rock music have way more fans than classical music? Which is not to say that highly-developed art forms, such as Bharatnatyam, or Odissi dance, or western classical music as typified by Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach, should not be studied and preserved. They are on a much higher level than hip hop, rock, and for that matter bhangra. But they are certainly not for everybody.
Certainly the sadistic culture that exclaims the need to whip women and keep them chained to the home and forced to wear a burqa and have to bow and scrape to every whim of their male relatives springs to mind in relation to your statement.
you are not getting anything out of the wild exageration of my position. Are you a radical feminist or something? I have observed in many a discussion that these are tactics and positions typical.
Amitabh,
i don’t know enough about brown music to evaluate your claim. i don’t disagree with it, cuz i don’t know it. i just am noting the way you are stating it is kind of arrogant sounding 🙂 i mean, i think you could say the same stuff in a more clinical academic way, or, limit it to empirical anecdotes like you did about paterson, NJ. the only reason i bring this up is that there are a lot of chauvanists on these boards and they’ll jump on dat shiz to start a ruckus.
Razib:
Point noted.
jai # 37: umm, whats a swaminarayan type??
My interpretation of this statement is that you are against the sexist desi male culture. If so, your viewpoints (RRK) on your blog have me a bit puzzled.
Here you say (sorry, each indiv post is not linkable):
Then, you talk about “5,000 lashes” as someone quoted above. Under your 13Aug comments, you state
I don’t really recall ever seeing any bellydancers wearing full burkha – makes viewing the “belly” a bit difficult, no? As far as the burkhas go, I’ve always wondered that if men are so worried about “their” women being looked at, isn’t it normal to think that the women might be concerned about the men being admired as well? Shouldn’t that require a male burkha as well, you know, to “even” everything out?
Asking equal rights for women does not a radical feminist make…
Incidentally, you seem quite “unsatisfied” in your “dating” endeavors:
Might I conjecture that your views are perhaps turning these women off?
Amitabh,
I know what you’re saying but this isn’t quite accurate, at least with regards to the UK. One of the major reasons why there are so many problems within the British Pakistani population is because they have excessively adhered to all of the above (okay, not the music, but in terms of other inherited behaviours and customs etc).
In terms of other immigrant groups here, they too get involved in various aspects of their inherited culture, but it’s less noticeable because there are numerically less of them and they are less noisy about it. 2nd-Generation Africans here tend to dive into the Western black culture — since it’s already very high-profile and long-established — although they do maintain certain aspects of their background too, but not to the extent that desis do. Remember that they also tend to be less conservative about certain matters and this makes it easier for them to integrate into mainstream Western culture. All this also applies to the large numbers of people here originating in the Caribbean.
There is a smaller sprinkling of Chinese people in the UK too; from what I’ve seen, the parents tend to be quite traditional, but their children are almost completely Westernised in their general behaviour (certain more so than desis are).
With regards to the US, I was under the impression that non-Sikh/non-Punjabi Indians over there are more enthusiastic about maintaing Indian dances and music (both “Bollywood” and classical) — for example, the very large turnouts at “Boogie Woogie”-type dance competitions there, which are also sometimes profiled on Asian Variety Show on Sony. There are plenty of Hindus in the UK too, but such large competitions and events do not occur on some a wide scale, at least not so enthusiastically. However, annual garbas during Navratri here are of course very popular and have huge numbers of participants.
You are correct, though, about the fact that non-Punjabi Indians here are far less interested in music and other cultural matters from their own background (comparatively-speaking). The greater proportion of Hindus here are Gujarati, and — garbas aside — I am aware that they also have their own, less-publicised varieties of folk music and singing which is all but invisible amongst 2nd-Gen Gujjus here.
It’s not very politically-correct to say so, but I do think you’re right about this. I would also tentatively propose that there are certain ideals that Punjabi culture is strongly influenced by (significantly, although not exclusively, due to the Sikh input), so a) that gives a greater incentive for people to maintain the positive aspects of their culture and not reject their identity — because they feel it’s a positive environment, and is generally quite upbeat, friendly, dynamic etc — and b) certain aspects of the history involved means there’s a greater pride in these matters. People are not trying to get the hell away from being Punjabi, for example.
It’s an interesting point. Before “British desi” culture really exploded into the public eye, amongst Indians it was mainly Sikhs who were not embarrassed about being Indian. I think that, again because of the heroic history involved, being “Indian” perhaps had different connotations for Sikhs compared to desis from some other backgrounds. The warrior element does also place a different spin on things, of course, in terms of role models (religious and/or historical) and general attitudes to life; this is quite important if a person/group is in a society which may have historically been quite hostile, or at least patronising, towards them (racism, the colonial baggage, and so on).
Personally, I think that similar developments would have occurred if, for example, British Indians were predominantly Rajasthanis instead of Punjabis. The whole Rajput thing does have a certain glamour too (along with, let’s admit it, machismo); if you ask any 2nd-Gen Rajasthanis in the US, I’m sure they’ll grin and confirm this 😉
Bro, until British desi culture really exploded (predominantly, although again not exclusively, due to bhangra), South Asians here from all backgrounds were exactly like this too, including Punjabis 🙂 To some extent they still are, at least amongst the younger crowd.
Desis were practically invisible in the mainstream British media until the early/mid-90s, so the only non-white role models everyone had were American black actors and rappers/singers (apart from the limited influence of Bollywood). There was essentially a ready-made, assertive, vibrant non-white culture which, by default, younger desis latched onto. Spike Lee, Do The Right Thing, Malcolm X, New Jack City, Boyz ‘N The Hood, Public Enemy, Ice-T, NWA, along with smooooth soul music etc etc were absolutely huge amongst younger South Asians here. It was only after the rise of bhangra, GGM etc that people really started doing their own thing, although the black influence was still there to some extent — but the latter’s obviously become mainstream these days too.
Dingchak,
It’s a sect of Hinduism which has many adherents amongst Gujaratis. The biggest Hindu temple in the UK is owned by the Swaminarayans (very nice place, about 10 years old, built in the traditional north Indian Hindu style, lots of marble, very peaceful).
Amitabh,
re: post #75
It’s because all that is more macho, basically. Applies to bhangra too — if something’s loud, upbeat, and (yes) fun, then younger people will of course be more likely, and more willing, to hold onto it/participate in it. Especially if one’s community is numerically in a minority and perhaps in a semi-hostile mainstream environment (historically-speaking, if less so these days, although this does perhaps still apply to the condescending attitude towards desis there in the US).
Yes I do know this is slightly contradicted by the fact that ghazals are very popular amongst many younger desis here too, but if you think about the analogy that ghazals are to old-school soul/r’n’b compared to what bhangra is to hip-hop, then it does make sense.
All this applies to certain other aspects of culture too, of course, not just music. This takes us back to what I was previously saying about more assertive and upbeat attitudes amongst Punjabis compared to Indians from other backgrounds (very broadly-speaking). Even the Khalsa ethos translated effectively into the African-American gangsta/hip-hop influence which was so, well, influential amongst younger Sikhs here a while back — “brothers” sticking together in what was perceived to be a hostile wider environment, people looking out for each other, not taking any crap etc.
Ironically, I think the latter’s a major driver towards the increasing conservativism of younger British Pakistani Muslims too, along with (in the more extreme cases) radicalisation etc. The difference, perhaps, is that although the warrior thing is ideologically and historically prevalent in Sikhism as well as in Islam, broadly-speaking there have been significant disparaties in terms of when the warlike traits have been executed, the principles behind them, and the general attitude towards people from a different background (in both “peacetime” and war)*. Controversial to say this, but perhaps something to ponder.
*I’m referring to pre-colonial times, not the horrific events of 1947.
PS Can I just “bump” a superb article posted on the News tab by Kush Tandon. It’s from the NY Times and discusses how Pakistanis seem to find the US an “easier fit” than the UK. Please do read this: article here.
Either way, there’s been a huge increase in the number of (Muslim) beards and – especially – burkhas visible amongst younger desis in the UK during the past couple of years. It wasn’t even remotely like this when I was younger, not even when I was at university (early-late 90s), apart from the cases of a very small minority of really hardcore “armchair jihadi/khilafat” types (guys not women). At the time, it was very difficult to distinguish physically between desis according to religious affiliation — apart from Sikhs — even though there were already huge numbers of 2nd-Generation desis of all backgrounds at university and in the workplace (especially London and the Midlands).
This is a gross simplification. Classical music is not per definition more complex and more developed, than say, ‘rock’ music. Both Strauss and Pachelbel, to use a couple of examples, can hardly be classified as ‘more complex’ than, say, Joy Division, to use an example from so-called ‘rock’ music. In fact, I’d wager to say that Joy Division is the greater of the two, and I have my own collection of classical music. Just because classical music developed earlier than ‘pop’ music does not make it ‘on a higher level’. They are completely different genres and should be treated as such.
Jai,
The NY Times piece is good and, if it’s possible to extract one determining variable with respect to Pakistani immigration in the US compared to the UK, it is this:
Again, does the personal and potential wealth of the immigrant forecast the type of socio-economic development of a community? Unlikely, but it’s a very important factor to consider within first and second generation immigration analysis.
If you could settle on a sole macro factor, I think it would be this:
Excerpt from a longer interview with Professor Robert Pape from U of C.
Holy Choli, Siddhartha! Missed this thread as I was out of town all weekend and have a million things to say but will limit myself. First off, while I usually laugh at melas for their sheer cheese value (I’ve had to work at loads of them at a health booth — I have seen more creative facial hair and heard more plays of Mundian To Bach Ke than anyone ever needs to) I actually enjoyed myself at this year’s London Mela because they made an effort to include peeps like Yam Boy, Nerm, Pathaan, MC Riz, the entire Indo Electronica stage, etc. But there’s one aspect of the melas that everyone I know hates — that of RK Khan’s “family and tribe first” mentality. Huge groups of teen males swagger in waving huge Indian, Pakistani and Bangladeshi flags, and get all aggressive on each other and the females. I mean, it’s one thing to be proud of where your parents were born, but it really comes off as menacing. I was at the BBC Asian Network booth and the two DJs watched one such group enter and both started ranting about how they ruin the melas every year and make Asians look bad. So that’s one small not-so-positive aspect. And I disagree with Malkani — in my experience, they’re still attended by 99% Asians, meaning they’re still somewhat ghettoized from the larger community. I occasionally see interracial couples with kids wandering around, but almost never groups of young non-Asians just wandering around to check it out. Big free events like the Finsbury Park RISE Festival (music from mainstream pop to Asian to hip-hop to Middle Eastern) attract a far more representative multicultural sample of London youth.
Secondly, I spent most of my weekend at the flat of a Brit Asian female rapper talking and talking for hours, partly about Londonstani (can’t read the damn thing, but have read all the analysis about it and met Malkani briefly) and ghetto Asian culture. She really opened my eyes to what life is like for working-class Asians. It was completely alien to me (white American who hangs with “hip” and “ironic” Brit Asians, har har) hearing about her life. Drugs, violence, crime, everything economic happening in a black market of fraud — it was really overwhelming. She thinks what Malkani wrote about needs to be forced into the mainstream much more, or no one will ever understand where a huge chunk of the population comes from, and urban areas with huge brown populations will just become more and more 3rd-world in terms of gangs and illegal activity and corruption. I think she’s really aware of how absolutely isolated these communities are from each other. It’s like, imagine the UK being this thing that on the surface looks all generally positive (Diwali in Trafalgar Square, Eid Tea in Parliament with the Prime Minister, all the upper-class journalists writing about lovely multiculti arts events in the Guardian and how Malkani is so “real,” etc) but really there’s this obese underbelly heaving with voluntary apartheid and scams and violence. Hell, even my boyfriend in Brick Lane can’t get paid for some of the work he does because of the rich goondas that run the street and threaten everyone with knives. But oh, Brick Lane is so TRENDY with their funky bars at the top and all those twee Indian restaurants overcharging for spicy gravy slop! It’s the epicenter of massive credit-card fraud, council benefit fraud, heroin abuse among teens, people taking massive bank loans and then immediately bankrupting their business and buying a new house in their brother’s name, restaurant owners who can call on goondas to threaten other businesses…but who is aware of this other than the people involved? Not the rest of the UK.
No von Mises,
Well, the disparity between education and wealth between the two transatlantic Pakistani communities as possibly being a motivator is something quite a few people have suggested, including during previous discussions here on SM. However, considering the fact that several of the 7/7 bombers last year were from fairly affluent backgrounds, the fact that Islamic extremist groups are currently targetting British university campuses, and the fact that some of these groups here in the UK include highly-qualified medical doctors and lawyers amongst their ranks, I don’t think we can use education and affluence as being primary motivators alone.
Maybe partially, and maybe it depends on the particular person, but I think that the kind of family and social environment the potential jihadi originally comes from (irrespective of his/her current education and affluence) and the type of people he/she predominantly socialises with — in terms of their personalities and attitudes — may be more pertinent factors.
I felt the same way in college. people would decide that im “not really indian” or i “must be really americanized” because I didnt relate to punjabi culture. People also acted like “being too americanized” is a sin.
I felt the same way in college. people would decide that im “not really indian” or i “must be really americanized” because I didnt relate to punjabi culture. People also acted like “being too americanized” is a sin.
There’s always room for new hybridities. Rudresh Mahanthappa and Vijay Iyer’s jazz – dont you hear the nageswaram in their work? The thousands of bharatnatyam schools popping up that has lead to new creativity in dance? There’s some guy who posts here who mashes carnatic ragas into his DJ-ing? My question is whether the community here is too burgeois outwardly; our cultural icon is Jhumpa Lahiri – staid and elegant, but lacking that certain something that moves. England seems to be culturally richer at the moment, perhaps because they’re older; perhaps because they’re not shunted into professions as much as we are. Besides the bhangra, there is a torrent of new writers shaping the language.
Gautham,
Nice comment.. India itself is one big multi-cultural entity. I think due to Bollywood and the big diaspora, so far Punjabi culture has been made synonymous with Indian culture.. Nothing wrong with that though.. It’s all good.
You just have to see the Independence or Republic day parades to see and enjoy the cultural diversities of India.. I was struck by a comment I read from a newsarticle (I think in BBC) a few years back where it talked about India showing off its military and cultural might in the republic day parades… I never heard of “cultural might” before.. Nice term and I liked it ..
hmm….i graduated college in 01. not sure if these developments happened after that. but, in any case there was this one show where this artist was playing some new tamil music. the north indian guys were talking about the fact that it was in tamil in disgust after the show. pretty gr!m. reasonable people otherwise though.
Also Canada. There seems to be government grants available to dancers, poets and fiction writers, and Toronto always have a VERY impressive schedule of classical music concerts – Hindustani and Carntic, and a wider range of South Asian restaurants – including Sri Lankan Tamil Chettiar which is delish.
midwestern eastender
Yeah but that’s pretty much life in all working class areas of England, and if you go to Liverpool, Newcastle, or any inner city area you see the scams, the black marketeering, the drugs, the gangs. Working class white people and working class black people (watch the movie ‘Kidz’ about life amongst black youth in London) all know this – it’s more a class thing than something that mainstream society refuses to see or wants to see about Asians uniquely. What do the white middle class know about life on a council estate for poor white people? Nothing much. It’s a class issue more than anything else. In fact, back in your homeland, i expect it’s the same, in working class inner city areas, the law of the jungle in those areas, the pressures, crime, is not really understood or represented by the mainstream.
Amen to that. They really are the pits. Londonstani is written about exactly those kinds of tribal minded macho boys.
in working class inner city areas, the law of the jungle in those areas, the pressures, crime, is not really understood or represented by the mainstream.
Red Snapper: I agree, but would you also say that at least there’s a lot of media ABOUT the working class when it comes to blacks and whites? Whether it’s hip-hop music in the U.S. or Brit films about Cockney gangsters or ex-factory workers dropping trou, I would hazard a guess that most people have a basic understanding about the issues that affect poor black and white people. But Asian culture in the UK is portrayed in a fairly positive light (Bollywood! Festivals! Steel tycoons!), except when it comes to Muslims, I think. THEN they go on about “deprived communities” and the unemployment rates among Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. But otherwise there’s no mass media that would give the average person a view of these communities. Yes? No?
midwestern eastender
Maybe you have a point. I would have to think about it more. The Pakistani and Bengali ghettos are the worst in terms of deprivation and poverty. In the last few years you have seen a tremendous amount of attention on the desi Muslim communities, films like ‘Yasmin’ about a hijabi girl up north, films about the Bradford riots etc etc. Not to mention endless newspaper articles, features, TV discussion programmes all about their problems and the clash of civilisations. This has accelerated since last year and 7/7.
But it’s got to the stage where Muslims don’t seem to have a life, or a profile in the mainstream outside the parameters of the endless enquiry into their problems. Even a novel like ‘Maps for Lost Lovers’, set amongst Pakistanis in the north of England, a novel which I enjoyed, even then I kept putting it to one side every few pages thinking ‘oh come on’…..crammed full of dysfunction and bleakness to a morbid degree.
Indians probably have it easier in some senses…..maybe that is because the focus isnt on them in terms of being seen as dysfunctional as Pakistanis, or the problems are not as acute. Kumars at Number 42, Bend it like Beckham, Panjabi MC etc etc, all fun things that have Indian roots…..because there’s not so much negative expectations.
But the class thing does cut across racial lines – the white middle class of England does not really have a conception of inner city life as it is lived by white or black people either.
well, the pencil-beard running across your chin is pretty mozarella
Relax Gautham she doesnt mean that at all. She’s talking about the tackiness of British mela season over the summer when lots of cheesy music is played and cheesy things happen with teenagers and gangs and tacky fashions. She’s being satirical and I agree with her 100%. She’s on the level and one of us. Relax.
Gautham,
Back off. You got a problem with Midwestern Eastender’s comments, you can take the time to think it out and phrase it respectfully. More importantly, your interpretations of whom this site is “by and for” are yours alone. So kindly don’t threaten our sister. Thank you.