I thought I’d take a moment to lay out for our readers how individual action in the context of a community CAN help change the status quo, particularly when it comes to political power and representation in the U.S. Here is step-by-step look at the BIG PICTURE.
1) First, let me take you back to July 31st (just two weeks ago) when Mason-Dixon Polling & Research Inc. released its poll regarding the Virgina Senate race:
U.S. Sen. George Allen leads Jim Webb for re-election but may be threatened by voter distaste for the Iraq war and President Bush, according to The Times-Dispatch Poll.
Popular and well-known, the Republican senator is favored for a second term by 48 percent, while Democrat Webb, still struggling to get out his name and message, is backed by 32 per cent. Twenty percent are undecided.
That the support for Allen, the state’s dominant Republican for more than a decade, is under 50 percent suggests he is handicapped by anti-GOP sentiment, much of it attributed to uncertainty over Iraq…As an early snapshot of a race that could help decide control of the Senate, the poll suggests Allen is using the advantages of incumbency, including a huge edge in fundraising, to navigate potential hazards. [Link]
2) When that first domino fell, the Democratic leadership decided to strategically cut their losses and run. They wrote off both Webb and Virgina:
To hear national Democratic party leaders tell it, Democrat James Webb has a solid chance of ousting Republican Sen. George Allen this fall.
“You might find Cinderella in Virginia,” Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., told Congressional Quarterly this spring. “Allen’s numbers are not very strong.”
But in the first major spending decision of the fall campaign, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee – which Schumer heads – took a pass on Virginia.
The committee, which helps elect Democratic senators, has reserved a reported $25 million worth of television ads in states where Republican incumbents are considered vulnerable. Virginia is not one of them.
The spending plan, first reported by The Associated Press, came within days of a Mason-Dixon poll showing Allen leading Webb by 16 percentage points. [Link]
3) In the very same article Sen. George Allen is questioned about his seemingly easy path to victory in November and offers these ominously prophetic words:
Allen, a first-term senator seeking re-election as he contemplates a 2008 presidential run, tried to avoid a smile when told of the Democrats’ plan not to target his Senate seat for early advertising money.
“You put money where you think it can have an impact in close races,” said Allen, past chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee. “But from our perspective, we need to be prepared for an onslaught. We could be hit with an onslaught at any time…” [Link]
4) Allen directs an alleged racial slur at a young Indian American male at a campaign rally and backs it up with a “welcome to America.” This affects not only our community but all minority communities since Allen has a good shot at the Whitehouse. Indian Americans, both Democrats and Republicans together acted to call out hypocrisy within our own community and proceeded to lay out a plan of action for what we could do:
Subodh Chandra said:<
p>As a former candidate, I’d like to try to focus on what is what is needed. ACTION.
I ask you to do a few things in order of importance.
(1) Make a financial contribution to James Webb’s senate campaign right now: Never mind that Webb is a fantastic, distinguished candidate: war hero, best-selling novelist, former Secretary of the Navy, a former Republican who finally had enough. Because there are lots of great candidates. Webb is your best weapon for punishing Allen and sending a message right now to those like Allen that we “Macacas” are the “real America.” Whether it’s $25, $250, or $2,100 (the individual maximum), a lot of us doing what we can gives Webb the resources he needs to put a bully in his place. Webb needs resources. If you don’t take this simple step (every reader of this blog can afford SOMETHING–I just plunked down $200 and I’m broke after my own campaign), you are basically saying you don’t care if Allen wins. Seriously… [Link]
5) We acted:
Angry email sent! Truly a pile of steaming macaca.
Allen’s comments were unbelievable. Reminded me of being a “Jungle Bunny” in third grade.
By the way, did I mention t-shirts? Yes, my mother was right after all. I have no shame.
I made up some funny t-shirts and other stuff to celebrate the end of Allen’s campaign. Thought you might want to check it out.
I’m donating 30% of the profit to Allen’s competitor, Democratic candidate Jim Webb.
http://www.cafepress.com/macacashop [Link]
<
p>and we acted some more:
1. Email to sent to IARC. (hope they squirm after reading it)
2. $$ Donation(generous & a first time) to James Webb.
3. Letter to NY Times Editor – more coverage requested.
4. My yahoogroups contacts asked to Go To Step 1 and repeat!!… [Link]
<
p>By the way. The NY Times Editor heard you. But we weren’t done. USINPAC, which usually only gets involved in issues also affecting Indians in India (a habit that I have criticized in the past) made damn sure they weren’t going to risk your wrath (the way the IARC did) by sitting out of this one. I remain convinced that someone on the USINPAC committee has been following all of you comments on this blog and knew they would be in trouble with you all if they didn’t show some backbone.
<
p>6) We kept up the pressure. “Macaca” is the number one search word on Technorati (a blogosphere search engine) right now. In the past, this sort of thing would have been buried within one newscycle (if it had even made the light of day). Everyone is talking about this because you guys are letting everyone know that this is important to you. Another of our commenters offered this:
… i donated to webb’s campaign. nowhere near 200 bucks, but hey. hope it helps. [Link]
<
p>7) It did help, because your collective actions caused the Democrats to wake up and send in the Big Dog to help augment the momentum that you are building with your small donations. Virginia it seems is back in play and worth dedicating resources to all of a sudden, because all of you made it so. Clinton doesn’t particularly like Webb so it is pretty clear that the Democratic leadership is sending him in like a soldier, whereas before it wasn’t even on the table.
<
p>
Money, so far, has been Webb’s biggest hurdle that he has yet to clear. A visit from the Big Dog will not only rake in a significant dollar sum for Webb’s campaign, but it will also send the signal to national donors that Webb may well be worth the investment. Furthermore–and we saw this attempted by Joe Lieberman a few weeks ago–a Clinton visit will hopefully help boost Jim Webb’s appeal among African-Americans (a group that Webb’s primary opponent, Harris Miller, sought to carve away from his camp). Now that Sen. Allen is knee-deep in mucaca, you’ve got to believe that minority communities all across Virginia are shopping around for someone a bit more respectable. [Link]
Things might not work out how we hope for but at least we begin to see how our actions matter. In the immortal words of John “Hannibal” Smith, “I love it when a plan comes together.”
Keep mutineering yo.
Not to hijack this thread, but it is amusing to see that name… isn’t that Kal Penn’s character’s name in “The Namesake” ?
Yup – looks like the guy gave a falso name. Or Miramax sent a guy to begin some underground marketing for the movie.
when did i taunt Jindal’s newborn? i haven’t done anything of the sort, so why would it be understandable?
Sorry my friend.
Hmm, why does this comment bother me more than Clinton’s Gandhi gas-station joke? Biden was just, well, utterly clumsy. But I’m wondering why Clinton’s Gandhi joke didn’t bother me as much? Is it because I already have a, uh, less than stellar opinion of her politically? I mean, isn’t it really offensive to make a joke like that? I’m genuinely asking, not trying to make a point. Allen’s comment was just mean. And I suspect those of us who can remember being singled out as brown in a white crowd feel something emotionally when seeing Sidharth being singled out? But the Gandhi joke is just so inexplicable and unfunny and weird and why would you make a joke like that? Anyone else with any theories?
But the Gandhi joke is just so inexplicable and unfunny and weird and why would you make a joke like that? Anyone else with any theories?
you hit the nail on the head with emphasizing the personal dimension. gandhi is an icon. siddarth is a person.
allen’s background also makes you sensitie to these sort of things.
It is not possible for Hilary to demean Gandhi’s stature with a casual remark like that and all-gandhis-run-gas-stations type of stereotyping is lame, but not vicious. Allen’s video is more troublesome at multiple levels. As the only brown and only democrat at a republican event, Sidarth, a young volunteer, was already in a vulnerable position. It was just mean and indecent for Allen to bully him in any way. Using racial slurs and making it clear that as a brown he did not belong there are the worst sort of bullying tactics. Also there is the context of foreign policy of the current republican administration and Allen’s personal history.
Allen’s screwup! >>> http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5479/allenscrewuptt5.jpg
Porch Macaca? >>> http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4872/porchmacacafk3.jpg
What Carlos Mencia have to say about the senator >>> http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9636/sendeedeedeeqb1.jpg
Just a comment from an African American sista, but please remember Mr. Chandra’s remarks about the Southern strategy, which is something Ken Melman said he regretted, but his party isn’t actually repudiating. After the passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Republicans seriously courted the southerners who beleived that they’d been betrayed by the Democratic party. And those “bubbas” weren’t just making ill considered remarks, they were lynching African Americans who looked the wrong way at a white woman or refused to sell them their property or just got to well educated and “uppity.” A lot of those people are still around and they’re voting Republican. The dixiecrats? They’re republican now. This is not to say that Democrats don’t make me cringe every now and again, but I think that many of your African American friends out here have parents and grandparents who remind them of what happened then, and many of us are afarid of the seeming resurgence of those whties who think that way, and we see wearing a confederate flag pin as the tip of thte iceberg.
I’m not sure if it was in this thread, or one of the other threads, but the issue that Allen’s maternal heritage was not being covered by the media was raised.
Anyhow, all though this isn’t an “article,” it does cover her background in a letter to the editor in the NY Times. One of the Mutineers?
MoveOn’s petition to the RNC to drop Allen’s funding is here.
Done.
As a Republican AND a Virginian, I am ashamed to be associated with George Allen. Shame on him and shame on US if we fail to disassociate ourselves from his deplorable words and disgraceful antics. If the RNC does not take a stand, I will not only consider voting for Webb, I will donate to his campaign as well.
We all deserve better than what Allen represents and provides; I’m starting to think that a veteran like Webb who served under a truly legendary President is far more deserving of my support than someone who won’t even step up and own their mistakes like a man. Do the right thing and do what George Allen apparently is not capable of– stand up, honestly, for the American virtues of equality and honor…or step aside for those of us who will.
“Do the right thing and do what George Allen apparently is not capable of– stand up, honestly, for the American virtues of equality and honor.”
Spike Lee would be proud. Ironically, his doc about Katrina is coming out today, or soon. Anyway, Im surprised so many Indian republicans are jumping out of the woodwork against this cat.
why would you think that HMF? If you spend any time on righty sites, it’s a pretty fractious bunch with a lot of different opinions about things. No-one is marching to Rove’s orders. And it’s in keeping with the general tone of the right of center types who post here. They are generally a pretty level headed and independent bunch.
*Will spike lee’s documentary discuss the reason article or the popular mechanics articles on KAtrina myths? Most of which were uncorrected by the media after they were printed by the same media. You know, the media that has such high standards of accuracy.
Im surprised so many Indian republicans are jumping out of the woodwork against this cat.
y?
I guess that makes sense, because most Indian republicans are RINOs (Republican in name only) That is, they’re rich doctors and benefit from Bush’s tax cuts and loose malpractice laws, OR they’re social conservative and don’t want gays getting married. But in general the republicans tend to be more unified, at least thats how Fox news tells/spins it.
I guess that makes sense, because most Indian republicans are RINOs (Republican in name only) That is, they’re rich doctors and benefit from Bush’s tax cuts and loose malpractice laws, OR they’re social conservative and don’t want gays getting married. But in general the republicans tend to be more unified, at least thats how Fox news tells/spins it.
i guess stereotyping without caveats is OK if you disagree with someone politically, heh? here’s one: most brown democrats are democrats because all they care about are their narrow sectarian political issues.
For the 1,893,275th time, thank you, Razib.
I guess I dont’ see it as a stereotype, it’s observed data. Most of the NBA is black, Most ice hockey fans are white, most Indians who identify themselves as republican do so for the above mentioned reasons.
But democrat and republican are political (and social to some degree) dilineations, when you call someone a dem or a rep you’re pretty much confining the statement to their stance on “sectarian political issues” Especially in this context as it concerns electoral campaigns and such. Unless you use the term used above, RINO.
Most of the NBA is black, Most ice hockey fans are white, most Indians who identify themselves as republican do so for the above mentioned reasons
your analogy does not hold. you can confirm the preponderance of blacks or whites in a particular field by visual inspection. you can’t judge what is someone’s heart without asking them (unless you have mentalistic powers). i see little indication you are interesting asking as opposed to assuming.
btw, democrats just want to steal the money that other people make through their hard-work and would rather kill a baby than raise it 🙂 why else would someone be a democrat?
Why do you assume I haven’t asked, or gleaned through discussion, or read opinions. First of all, what benefit do I get by even making such a stereotypical accusation in the first place?
btw, Reps would rather have the baby be born, grow up socially maladjusted, commit heinous crimes, receive the death penalty and then kill the “baby”…. which makes much more logical sense right ? :0
your analogy does not hold. you can confirm the preponderance of blacks or whites in a particular field by visual inspection. you can’t judge what is someone’s heart without asking them (unless you have mentalistic powers). i see little indication you are interesting asking as opposed to assuming.
While he did sterotype, in my experience there is some truth to it, though i don’t think its as thoroughly demarcated b/w social and fiscal conservatives. He forgot to add “teach the Muslims a lesson,” which I heard a LOT of in 04.
HMF – i got your back son. But you need to be more elaborate in your posts, like we all do, lest they be parsed to shreds by fellow Mutineers – it’s a tough crowd on here and so it should be!
Oh snap, i forgot what this thread was originally about – Mutineers, don’t take all the credit for the buzz, DailyKos, CrooksAndLiars, MoveOn, etc. have also been pretty vigilant on this story from the getgo. Just signed homegirl Nita Chaudhary’s petition at MoveOn….
I guess that makes sense, because most Indian republicans are RINOs (Republican in name only) That is, they’re rich doctors and benefit from Bush’s tax cuts and loose malpractice laws, OR they’re social conservative and don’t want gays getting married. But in general the republicans tend to be more unified, at least thats how Fox news tells/spins it.
You’ve got it darn straight that Indian Republicans are likely to be more educated, but they are just as likely to be software engineers, or technology people, whose job might vanish overseas as a result of outsourcing, as anything else. Not to mention journalists, business folks and other healthcare professionals, where globalization does have its effect. I find your stereotype of their stand on social issues mistaken, even misguided. In fact, I seriously doubt that there are many Indian Republicans who are in it because of gay marriage. To quote the noted political commentator and pundit Russell Peters (and I quote from memory), “we got bigger things to worry about. Like arranged marriage.” To sum it up, as Razib points out, it is a principle thing.
Why do you assume I haven’t asked, or gleaned through discussion, or read opinions.
because you opinions don’t express any nuance or subtly. they may accurately describe a subset of brown republicans, but not the totallity of us (though i am pretty confirmed as a RINO at this point since i won’t be voting republican for at least 2 years, and possibly longer). if you think that your assertions are accurate to a great degree, you simply haven’t expanded your sample set sufficiently. and certainly the way you described those you do describe accurately is unflattering and somewhat inflammatory. so, it is clear you value sepia mutiny and want to elevate its tone and not make it into your own personal soapbox contingent upon your own biases and assumptions, all the while hand-wringing about the use of m. night’s name in hollywood marketing.
While he did sterotype, in my experience there is some truth to it, though i don’t think its as thoroughly demarcated b/w social and fiscal conservatives. He forgot to add “teach the Muslims a lesson,” which I heard a LOT of in 04.
there’s some truth in a lot of things, sure. i’m just saying, this is a forum we one has be really careful about stereotypes, because as brown americanz we are on the receiving end of a lot of that crap. this is predominantly a center-left blog in readership, that’s for sure, but there are those of us who aren’t center-left and sometimes i think it is important to give people a “reality check” as to that fact.
i think most of the republicans here have been supportive of the general anti-allen senitment. HMF thanks us for our principled opposition to anti-brown demogogery by listing off a series of unflattering intrepreations of the motives of republican brownz. thanks, we’ll remember the love.
This is a nice twist of my statement.
But don’t Reps as a party tend to support outsourcing, or at least seem conflicted about the entire issue, as outsourcing is a key profitmaker for big bidness? As for the social conservative, it’s true, anti-gay marriage usually isn’t the draw, (because socially/religious conservative Hindus tend to stay out of the political fray altogether)
You’ve got it darn straight that Indian Republicans are likely to be more educated This is a nice twist of my statement. You do have a point, but this is intended to be a caution against stereotyping. That’s all.
but they are just as likely to be software engineers, or technology people, whose job might vanish overseas as a result of outsourcing, as anything else.
But don’t Reps as a party tend to support outsourcing, or at least seem conflicted about the entire issue, as outsourcing is a key profitmaker for big bidness? If somebody was an Indian, a Republican AND a software engineer or technology person, he has nothing to gain from the political stance and everything to lose because his job could be outsourced. I personally fall into the category, and I am a RINO too at this point. In my case, it is essentially about the long-term view. You know, every dollar that gets outsourced brings back $ 1.14, that sort of stuff, the economic principle of the thing.
“and certainly the way you described those you do describe accurately is unflattering and somewhat inflammatory. “
I’m sorry, did you say unflattering and inflammatory?
“so, it is clear you value sepia mutiny and want to elevate its tone and not make it into your own personal soapbox contingent upon your own biases and assumptions, all the while hand-wringing about the use of m. night’s name in hollywood marketing.”
If you feel that way, don’t lodge the complaint to me, lodge it to those with the ability to do something about it. Maybe they keep me around because I give them (and perhaps, you) a good laugh. Maybe there’s a contest to see who makaes more spelling and grammatical mistakes, me or you. There could be a host of reasons.
Great interview with our dear young SR Sidarth on Young Turks:
http://www.theyoungturks.com/story/2006/8/16/201332/564
sidarth speaks on cnn: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gBuxjQAVEMY
well done abhi. seriously, movements, action, and grassroots organizing is what this country is all about. that was a wonderful breakdown.
What Apu_is_innocent said. This issue didn’t catch fire because of desi Americans, it caught fire because it had a mainstream political angle, and the mainstream political blogs were all over it. My impression is that the Bombay bombings did not get this kind of play in the blogosphere.
Most desis are dems because they’re not stupid enough to vote for those who insult them to their face. And make that an explicit component of their nationwide electoral strategy.
most brown democrats are democrats because all they care about are their narrow sectarian political issues.
I thought it was because Indians still love the idea of lifetime government employment, and the Dems are all for more public sector hiring. Not to mention affirmative action aka reservations 😉
I’m not exactly sure that affirmative action and reservations are synonymous.
I’m not exactly sure that affirmative action and reservations are synonymous.
Its comical to see some whites use affirmative action as a bogeyman for their personal failures while at the same time chastising Blacks for clinging on to racism as the reason for their failures. You would think that the sky has fallen down on some of these people and the law schools and medical schools are now full with negroes on affirmative action. I think thee African Americans consitute less than 10% of the student body at any top law/medical/business school and most of the other minorities are Asians and Internationals who dont get the benefit of affirmative action anyway. So whats the big fucking deal?
Its comical to see some whites use affirmative action as a bogeyman for their personal failures while at the same time chastising Blacks for clinging on to racism as the reason for their failures.
no, it’s natural. i’ve known plenty of asians who are simply told they must have gotten into elite school x cuz they are minority. of course, these are loser whites, but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.
So whats the big fucking deal?
if you let black med students in with lower GPAs & MCATs, yeah, no big fucking deal for most people since those docs will go back into black communities where their lower competancy is less important than the importance of a “face of color” with an M.D. and of course, the blacks who are competant simply face a life-long stigma. no worries.
No it doesn’t, it says living whites have clearly benefited from past crimes against humanity, while having no direct culpability in creating the power imbalance, are complicit in perpetuating such institutions and social practices, and only seek to change them, incrementally, when confronted by the disenfranchised in large massive movements. The majority of every generation of whites have collectively felt they were going “too far” to appease “negroes” and the black masses were too “uppity” (40 acres and a mule, 3/5ths compromise, reconstruction, separate but equal, voting rights act, were mostly done by whites – not out of any collective self-introspection, but rather to “keep them quiet”) AA can be seen as just another incremental step.
As for “stigma” felt by those who feel they got ahead not solely through merit, how practical is that? Something like 80% of jobs are achieved through old boys networks, and legacy (like say, our President, who’s by far the largest beneficiary of legacy AA in existence) I don’t see 80% of the population feeling stigmatized, neither do I observe debilitating guilt coming from our Commander in chief.
but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.
ThatÂ’s not why I support affirmative action. I think we need affirmative action for blacks because it is good social policy. If slightly less academically accomplished blacks can get into schools, graduate and then move on to lead more productive lives, we will all be winners. We cannot have a permanent underclass of people in America. When I was in Law School, I knew some blacks who had obviously benefited from Affirmative Action, but none of them actually dropped out even if they did not end up at the top of the class. Of course I am not extrapolating anything from my personal experience, but I have not seen any data on affirmative action kids not being able to graduate from their respective programs.
but affirmative action modern liberal thought on race holds that whites are the princes of the planet who take upon them the moral sins of hundreds of years of racialism.
The above is a very silly caricature of the proponents of affirmative action.
If slightly less academically accomplished blacks can get into schools, graduate and then move on to lead more productive lives, we will all be winners.
depends on how you defend “slightly less academically accomplished.” i don’t count SAT or LSAT differences on the order of standard deviations and GPA differences that are 0.5ish between median values as “slightly less academically accomplished.” but yeah, i don’t care, as long as affirmative action remains limited to blacks.
We cannot have a permanent underclass of people in America.
over half of blacks are middle class, only 1/4 are underclass. guess what? the ones who are going to elite schools where LSAT, MCAT and GPAs matter are not coming, in general, from the 1/4 who are underclass (who are not likely to have graduated from high school quite often). affirmative action in elite schools is for the “talented tenth.”
some data:
For example, at Michigan State University’s College of Medicine in 1999, the median grade point average (GPA) for white admittees was 3.61, nearly an A-, while the median GPA for black admittees was 2.93, slightly below a B. Furthermore, the median MCAT score for blacks admitted to Michigan State that year was 29 (out of a possible 51 points) compared to 36 for whites.
These differences in admissions rates mirror the racial disparities in accomplishment on the first stage of the medical licensing exam. Scores from Michigan State averaged over a three year period show that 14% of black students failed the Step 1 of the exam, and 10% failed to take it, while among white students the failure rate was only 1% and the untested rate, 4%. Thus cumulatively, 24% of black medical students at Michigan State failed to complete the first stage of obtaining a medical license compared to only 5% of white students. Among Hispanics the combined rate was 8% and among Asians, 2%
like said, i don’t care about affirmative action as long as it is limited to blacks. i’m willing to accept that accomplished blacks who can get a GPA above 3.0 will deal with the stigma. but let’s not pretend that the numbers aren’t what they are.
p.s. i guess the failure rate on the medical board test shows that the “system works.” they’re caught later on after taking on 200 K in loans 🙂 (which they won’t be able to pay back usually of course now that they can’t become doctors).
over half of blacks are middle class, only 1/4 are underclass. guess what? the ones who are going to elite schools where LSAT, MCAT and GPAs matter are not coming, in general, from the 1/4 who are underclass (who are not likely to have graduated from high school quite often). affirmative action in elite schools is for the “talented tenth.”
Fair enough. But the elite blacks have the ability to inspire and motivate the black underclass. If the American corporate boardrooms, judges and the senate had more blacks, it will go a long way in putting our racist history to rest. Look, I am aware of the fact that Tyrone is not going to stop dealing in crack tomorrow if there were 9 black Supreme Court justices, but if the upper echelons of the American society had more prominent blacks, it will go a long way in taking away the despair, hopelessness and the belief that the ‘man’ is keeping the blacks down.
More importantly, it will create a society that offers a wide range of opportunity to all, and not limit a person or group into thinking their only way out is selling drugs, cutting a rap album, or becoming a pro athlete (not that those are synonymous)
Affirmative action can and is used by the Government and state schools at all levels. It is not restricted to Ivy League schools (all of which are private anyway and have their own affirmative action programs) Maybe they need to extend money oriented affirmative action to black majority public schools in the inner cities.
This discussion reminds me of a lovely interview with the novelist Richard Ford quite some time ago, in which he talked a little bit about critics and literature specialists, and their clueless relationship to his work. He had an incisive barb for Christopher Hitchens that struck me when I first read it, and that’s stayed with me ever since.
“People who know everything, but fundamentally don’t know jack shit.” Essactly. He’s talking about literature, not something else, but I’ve never seen the divide between “facts” and “wisdom” so lucidly laid out.
But the elite blacks have the ability to inspire and motivate the black underclass.
frankly, it seems the reverse. middle class blacks like “p-diddy” go downscale. but perhaps they are just fitting the stereotype? (you seemed to implicitly assume that blacks even at elite schools must have underclass origins, despite the underclass forming only 1/4 of blacks. this isn’t the first time i’ve seen people make the equivalence between black & underclass. when conservatives do it is racism, when liberals do it, well, i don’t know what it is)
but like i said, i’m cool with affirmative action for blacks. i don’t think it’ll do much, as it hasn’t for the past generation. just don’t extend to other groups 🙂
Mr Kobayashi, there’s a difference between clever style and earnest substance.
and not limit a person or group into thinking their only way out is selling drugs, cutting a rap album, or becoming a pro athlete
let me repeat one more time: half of blacks are middle class. 1/4 tweeners & 1/4 underclass. the black underclass isn’t an insulated endogamous caste.
but i’ll stop with the numbers already, lest mr. kobayashi imply i don’t know “jack shit.” hard to keep up with his incisive fact-filled posts.
you seemed to implicitly assume that blacks even at elite schools must have underclass origins, despite the underclass forming only 1/4 of blacks. this isn’t the first time i’ve seen people make the equivalence between black & underclass. when conservatives do it is racism, when liberals do it, well, i don’t know what it is
What I was getting at is the ability of the blacks at elite schools to inspire the black underclass and was not insinuating that all blacks at elite schools are themselves from an underclass background. In my initial post, I was not only referring to affirmative action at elite programs but also talking about affirmative action in general at all levels for the African American population.
but like i said, i’m cool with affirmative action for blacks. i don’t think it’ll do much, as it hasn’t for the past generation. just don’t extend to other groups 🙂
I dont support affirmative action for other groups. There is no affirmative action for non black/hispanic minorities in most schools anyway. As I support the affirmative action more on the grounds of good current social policy to fight black poverty, I might in future support some form of affirmative action for maybe the Mexican American population though I am hoping that there would be no need for that. IMO the affirmative action for blacks in the US has not gone far enough. Malaysia has gone from being a backwater rubber producing nation to a semi-industrialized modern economy because of affirmative action for the native Malays who are the majority of the population in Malaysia.
Where did you get the numbers on the black underclass being 1/4rth of the black population (they sound reasonable though) What are the numbers for the white underclass? Maybe the white underclass is also pretty significant as a total percentage of the white population though I am not sure what are the parameters they have used to determine the size of the underclass. Black poverty is so problematic for people like me because its in your face. I am sure there is devastating white poverty in WV and Alabama, but I dont really travel to those places and see that level of poverty. What I do see is Katrina and the inner cities in the all the major metropolitan areas. There is also devastating poverty in Somalia but I dont spend much time worrying about it.
Malaysia has gone from being a backwater rubber producing nation to a semi-industrialized modern economy because of affirmative action for the native Malays who are the majority of the population in Malaysia.
no, i doubt it. singapore has done the same thing (to a far greater extent GDP wise) without much affirmative action for its malay minority. thailand has grown without much affirmative action for its thai non-chinese majority (there is a lot of intermarriage in thailand so this might be impossible). mahathir mohammed believed that malays were genetically less hard-working because of historically lower population densities (a view exposited in a book in the early 1970s which got him into a lot of trouble), and that the chinese had an unfair advantage (the chinese here meant fujianese and hakka who already have a rep. of squeezing the most from nothing in china proper). the NEP exists to make sure that the sons of the soil don’t get dispossessed in their own country and that the country isn’t wracked by civil war. they’re still poorer, concentrated in the public sector (e.g., consider that the ratio of engineering degrees awarded to chinese vs. malays is lopsided, many malays get degrees in “islamic studies”). mahathir was asked whether the fact that many companies had “malay fronts” (you need a malay partner in larger businesses from what i gather) was a drag on the economy, and he said perhaps (these “front men” are of course always drawn from the malay aristocracy and upper middle class, not the peasantry), but poor malays needed to see that some malays got rich too.
but, if i want to address the bigger picture, it shows that the malay model of gov. mandated set-asides for underperforming majorities is better in the long term than the indoensian model of lasseiz faire and parasitism between the javanese elite and the chinese business class. though the chinese don’t have to deal with the hassle of the drag of a token business partner and what not, they also get pogromed periodically, which hasn’t happened in malaysia since the late 1960s. but anyway, your causal connection is almost certainly wrong, the point of comparison should be all the east tigers, not just malaysia. they’ve all risen from the 1960s.
(p.s., indians once had higher SES than malays, but were outstripped. they aren’t sons-of-soil, so no benefits for them!)