Abhi and I have both independently been thinking about the same problem, but we’ve come to slightly different solutions. Imagine for a second that Representative King and conservative talk show host Mike Gallagher and other wingnuts are right. Maybe it’s time to overcome our politically correct scruples and embrace overt profiling of all Muslim males. Maybe what we need is a screening policy that makes sure that every single Muslim male is scrutinized, and not one gets by without close examination.
How would we implement this?
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p>None of those in favor of the plan have thought about implementation. For example, this is what one Republican congressional candidate said:
“Well, you know, if he comes in wearing a turban and his name is Mohammed, that’s a good start” [Link]
Yeah riiiiiight. That would be around as effective as looking for men with “Terrorist” signs around their neck.
King calls for special treatment of all travellers of Middle Eastern or South Asian origin, but that clearly would be insufficient to accomplish his goals. 25% of all Muslims in America are black, and his plan ignores all of them. There have also been several serious plots involving both South East Asian Muslims and African ones, so we would need something far more extreme than the wimpy measures King suggests.
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p>No, if we’re going to be real men about this, we have to overcome our squeamishness, adapt a rigid approach and realize that all Muslim men have only one physical attribute in common – they’re all circumcised.
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p>
That’s right – I think there should be one line for men with foreskin, and another for men without. Uncut males get expedited boarding, while the circumcised get extra scrutiny.
If we think about the global population, there are only a few types of men who are circumcised: Jews, Muslims, certain African ethnic groups, and North Americans. Really, a minority of the world, but one that encomasses all Muslim men.
Certainly there will be false positives, but we already accepted that when we agreed to screen all Muslims. If you’re truly innocent, then this should be hardly any skin off your nose.
I say it’s time for all circumcised Americans stand up straight and make a small sacrifice for national security. What say you?
Razib, wait a min. You say 1.2 billion muslims all cut. Is there something I didn’t get, or did you just count in ALL muslims, male and female in the 1.2? Or are you implying there are about 2.4 billion muslims in the world?
sh*t, you’re right. but it doesn’t matter, sex ratio is about 50:50 so it is all normalized right.
Your not taking into consideration female circumcision.
Your not taking into consideration female circumcision.
LOL. dude. nearly 100% of muslim males are cut. only a minority of muslim females are, and they are mostly african. and many african women are circumcised too.
(i know, not a laughing matter, but i’m imaginging who exactly will be volunteering to do ‘clit’ checks)
lol As if those 50 virgins weren’t already uncomfortable…
19 Thotta
I view the report of mobs trying to ascertain if the person was Hindu by asking him to say the Gayatri Mantra with more than a little bit of suspicion. Not too many Hindus know the mantra in the first place. It is “revealed” to a Hindu dwija boy during his upanayanam when his father whispers it into his ear. Since only dwijas have upanayanams, and these days the practice is probably dwindling, I would be surprised if more than 10% of adult Hindus know the mantra.
JM, I’d disagree – Gayatri mantr is the first mantr of any in my experince of moving in non-brahmin circles and quite widely known. If people know anything like a shlok, its likely to be the Gayatri. I’m sure this situation is stronger in brahmin households.
BTW, while it may be ‘revealed’ during a ceremony, that applies to brahmins only. For the rest of us, its merely ‘found’ rather than ‘revealed’. 🙂
Seeker:
I guess I am surprised. What percentage of Hindus do you estimate know the mantra? I agree that the “revelation” is just a formality and the mantra is chanted for all to hear in most festivals/pujas. But still, the Hindu needs to be motivated and educated to get to know about it. From what I can see, only observant Hindus know even bhajans, and of that lot, only a smaller portion knows basic mantras.
Err…guys, how about women? Just because women have not been caught does not mean they are not involved? How do you find out conclusively if she is a terrorist or not? May be there were back up ladies for all the plots, plus, most of the liquid explosives can be very easily masked as cosmetics.
PS – lets keep aside the point that every women is a terror at her home:)
MY Bangladesh-born boyfriend wasn’t cut until he was 7 years old! He was supposed to die soon after his birth, so they just forgot about it until he was old enough to remember everything about the procedure! Eyyeewww. He says mostly he felt humiliated being laid up in bed while pretty female cousins came by and made fun of him. That, and being unable to pee because of a scab, and having an uncle pick it off and consequently weeing explosively right in the guy’s face. There’s y’all’s TMI for the day. 😉
if you’re ‘truly’ innocent..
oh yes we know all about your wonderfully just US legal system and excellent logic re: innocence and ‘innocent until proven guilty’
LAUGHS HYSTERICALLY
i.e. bomb an entire country looking for one fellow – then couldn’t find him
“look madam, you lived in the middle east – we see some arabic squigggles in your passport you wrote a paper on al-qaeda at university oh look you went to grad school in the States the august before 9/11 you live in london…
!
well ennis perhaps you shouldn’t mind being chucked into Gitmo for a couple of weeks or two while they check out the state of your body parts..:-) after all, if you’re truly innocent, you know you’ll get out of there someday right?
Huh? I always thought that the majority of American Muslims were African American. That meant that black men outnumbered Arab or Persian men as American Muslims. Anyway, it’s stupid to think that a terrorist is going to walk into an airport dressed up as an obvious stereotype of what Johnny Sixpack thinks a “rag head” terrorist looks like every day. Did any of the September 11 hijackers board the planes with the “towel head” look? If we were going to be such blatant profilers, wouldn’t all the terrorist need then is a good Hollywood makeup kit? I’m sure an aspiring martyr would not mind going to paradise disguised as a 90 year old white woman.
I know many Gayatris, but not any mantra.. If it is shown in movies (like the mantra during weddings.. (mangalyam thanthu..etc..)), I bet many people would know.. otherwise many people can’t differentiate “Gayatri mantra” from any other sanskrit “swaha..” stuff.. I guess it is probably restricted to Brahmin circles..
Ennis, this is an impractical and silly idea, but what is up with using words like wing-nut? Classy.
Oh, by impractical and silly I’m referring to the separate line for Muslims thing. Like, why not just announce everything we do for security ahead of time so terrorists can work around it. Wicked smart thinking, huh?
25% of all Muslims in America are black
I saw this breakdown somewhere:
South-Central Asian : 33% African-American: 30% Arab: 25% White and others: 12%
The Gayatri Mantra is very well known among all the northie Hindu families of my acquaintance, it’s the only one we all know and trot out at token family pujas. All non-Brahmins.
Love the Macaca Mutiny!
I used that term to indicate that this is not an average conservative belief, but a whacky one. Wingnut is the equivalent of “Loony left”. Why whacky?
Well, it throws the constitution out the window for one thing. If the US constitution is minor to somebody, that marks them as whacky in my book.
For another, it ignores all prior work on efficiency. The spokesman from the Cato Institute says that studies show this is ineffective. Former police Chief Ray Kelly stopped it at the Customs department because it didn’t work.
It’s also wingnutty b/c it alienates people who might have knowledge, like the informant who blew the whistle on the last London plot.
Lastly, it’s wingnutty b/c its proponents have given no thought to implementation and keep waving that away as irrelevant. How can it be a security measure if you haven’t thought about how to do it? That’s like getting up and saying that our planes should be guarded by vampires flying outside and unicorns in the isles.
The Gayatri is ubiquitous now – whether films, or popular and new age music readily available. My mother and most of her sisters chant it every day. All non-brahmins.
OK this is more than I ever needed to know about circumcision on a Friday morning at 9:30!! I suggest a tattoo mark. If you are “with us” you get a big ass “I LOVE AMERICA” tattood on whatcha mama gave ya. If you don’t have one, well you are “against us”. Down down with the terrorists!!
I used that term to indicate that this is not an average conservative belief
I think its perfectly in line with the average consersative belief. By that I mean the view held by most Republicans. The average conservative view might actually be slightly to the right of this view.
If the US constitution is minor to somebody, that marks them as whacky in my book.
I am not a big fan of showing excessive deference to the US Constitution. We should be careful as to not putting the constitution on a pedestal usually reserved for books like the Koran which are deemed perfect by some and thus can never be tampered with as they contain the absolute truth. That is why we have had over 25 amendments and then amendments to the amendments. Frankly there is a lot in the constitution which I find pretty annoying and wont mind if the constitution was amended to get rid of those things.
Ok — are these foreskin-check partition stories really true? My parentas gave me the story, but it smells funny (!). Is there any reliable documentation on foreskin-based sectarian killing?
Ok — are these foreskin-check partition stories really true? My parentas gave me the story, but it smells funny (!). Is there any reliable documentation on foreskin-based sectarian killing?
It still happens in India quite regularly during the Hindu-Muslim sectarian violence.
Razib – Also, 80% of American males = 120 mil no?
I never understood how female circumcision is genetic mutilation and male circumcision is not. Is the rationale deprivation of pleasure during intercourse? If that is the case then the same thing applies to men(to a lesser extent ofcourse) also right?
Also I remember reading that there is no clinical evidence to prove any kind of corelation between circumcision and rate of venereal infection.
The only cases where this is valid is when there is a reduced opportunities to wash yourself or keep clean – like in ancient times, war, poorer parts of the world etc. So, if circumsion is argued on that basis, we should probably pull out the teeth of all children to reduce chances of plaque/gingivitis and gum diesease in the future. If only there were an industry like the dental hygiene cabal solely devoted to weenie hygiene!!
“I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up…”
It’s a good idea, Ennis, but given the number of travellers being handled, there will be frequent cock-ups, and ultimately the wrong guy will get shafted and hung out to dry.
Right now, the “aliens” (non-citizens/GCs) are subjected to “finger-print checks” while entering US.. I guess in the future we could expect “fore-skin” checks.. I imagined the picture of seeing people keeping their **** in a similar machine.. It is gross..
Hey don’t knock it. That’s about the only fun thing I get to do at work anymore.
Speaking of fun things, Anna, where’s my “motherfcking snakes on a motherfcking plane VERSUS the macaca mutiny” Friday fifty five special edition at?
and they started to justify it medically even though there is no correlation between hygiene, VD and the lack of foreskin
lack of utility of circumcision seems to apply to modern regimes. e.g., there isn’t a problem with swedes vs. americans (uncut vs. cut). but when you look at the HIV infection rates between the luo & kikiyu, or xhosa & zulu, or thai and filipino (all uncut vs. cut dyads), the difference is non-trivial. the original arguments for increased cervical cancer rates for women who were with uncut men came from data derived from muslim vs. hindu & christians in southern india i believe.
Incidentally, that’s the exact reason why Sikhs aren’t supposed to do it*, theologically-speaking.
(Okay, technically Sikh teachings are directed at everyone and not just Sikhs, but for argument’s sake you know what I mean).
*Unless it’s for some medical reason, obviously.
Also I remember reading that there is no clinical evidence to prove any kind of corelation between circumcision and rate of venereal infection.
Not true. See here
Dr. Bertrand Auvert – whose 2005 study found circumcision reduced the rate of infection among heterosexual South African men by 65 per cent – said the procedure is a potentially inexpensive way to save lives.
“The cost of adult male circumcision is lower than the cost of treatment of HIV infections that could have been avoided,” he said
On a serious note, I don’t think there’s any foolproof method to identify people’s religious affiliation — you might as well try to figure out who’s a Catholic and who’s a Protestant based just on their appearance or their answers to supposedly pertinent questions.
People can always use false (non-Islamic) names and false passports, and really determined jihadis will either alter their appearance to remove any Islam-related identifiers or they will deliberately act/dress in certain ways to deflect suspicion (eg. as Westernised as possible). Ethnicity-based identification is also no guarantee of catching the right people, as we’ve all discussed previously.
But it’s worthwhile trying to figure out some way to increase the likelihood of successfully identifying potential jihadis anyway, at least in order to catch out the incompetent types who may slip up somehow, along with reassuring the public in general that at least some measures are being taken in order to try to increase their safety.
This issue needs to be dealt with at the core, as we’re currently debating on Pickled Politics (sorry for the plug but it is highly relevant): Remove the religious justification in the minds of the jihadis, since they’re basing their actions on their interpretation of Islam. Suitable imams need to be at the forefront of this approach — a religiously-derived problem ideally requires a religiously-based solution.
Funny, yes. But also sobering. Actually, the Nazis used this exactly as one of the means to determine whether someone was acctually a Jew or not, and to ‘catch’ those who were trying to slip away. So, please don’t give ’em too many ideas. The other part of the story is that Nazi controlled areas also had Muslims so they ran into this problem of identifying who was who. If you were a Mulim (who the Nazis also did not like, but the Nazis considered Muslims to be such low-low-low-life that they were not even worth an exterminantion!)… anyhow, if you were a Muslim in the Nazi controlled areas you were required to carry a letter/a certificate from the mosque priest (Mufti/Maulvi/whatever) certifying that you were a Muslim. Well, secret documents discovered later suggest that the Grand Mufti of Istanbul (then the capital of political Islam) had issues a letter (a fatwa) to all European mosques telling them that they should issue the certificate to any Jew who wanted it so that they (Jews) coudl save their lives. Reportedly, in a few cases this led to some mosques being closed and priests being deported because they had issued fake certificates to Jews. How the world changes!
who the Nazis also did not like, but the Nazis considered Muslims to be such low-low-low-life that they were not even worth an exterminantion
there was a bosnian muslim SS brigade. so not that “low-low-low life.” and a lot of what you seem to have sounds like urban legend. turkey in world war ii was still hard core ataturkist.
Why don’t we simply do like many have proposed for Israel: put pigs on every airplane. Mmmmmmm, bacon.
Why don’t we simply do like many have proposed for Israel: put pigs on every airplane.
I dont think Israel can put bacon anywhere in Israel. Jews dont eat pig-meat either. Some have suggested that the Islamic prohibition on eating pigs actually comes from Judaic law.
They should have 2 lines. One for humans and one for Macacas.
Right, pigs I think are considered “unclean” (or mandated so by holy books) and not eaten by Jews and Muslims (practising).. So i wonder if bacon is used in Israel..
So i wonder if bacon is used in Israel..
the russian jews (many of whom are not jews) have started black market pig farms FYI. i have heard that some of this meat is sold as ‘turkey’ in tel aviv. though not jerusalem 🙂
The Russian Jews also put up Christmas trees. From what I have heard, there is some tension between the Sephardic/Ashkenazi Jews and the Russian Jews. Some of the Russian Jews are hardly Jewish.
Some of the Russian Jews are hardly Jewish.
you have a ‘right of return’ if the nazis would have rounded you up. that’s a liberal standard (blood quanta = 1/4). second, many non-jewish spouses came. third, the jewish leadereship looked the other way when euro-goys came as it counterbalanced the arab increase.
The story I heard a long time ago is that Israel is the largest pork producer in the region. The law forbids pigs on the soil of Israel, so producers build platforms. I can’t vouch for that. What I can tell you is that pork is sold in Israel, and even in Jerusalem (although that might be under the counter). It’s called “White steak”
Researchers Study Role of Male Circumcision in Preventing HIV Spread
You’re all missing the point. During the height of the bus bombings in Israel, there was a story that Egged and Dan bus lines were considering putting pig guts on buses. The theory was that a devout Moslem would not defile himself by touching pigs, so he would not be able to entering the bus. I’m suggesting that the Americans do this for aircraft – smear some pig guts on the airplane door.
smear some pig guts on the airplane door
you can violate food taboos, etc., during war if necessary.
We’d get sued by the haredim, and you know it 😉 Also I don’t think it would deter – the 9/11 bombers in Boston were at a strip club drinking booze the night before. What’s a little pork?
More generally, I think that we misunderstand their motivations. I think they’re more ethno-nationalist than purely religious, like the IRA or the Tamil Tigers. They’re not as secular, but this is about more than just piety.
I think that the pork test is less reliable than the schmuck test, here.
Right, pigs I think are considered “unclean” (or mandated so by holy books) and not eaten by Jews and Muslims (practising).. So i wonder if bacon is used in Israel..
Many of the reform Jews I know eat pork. I am not 100% sure about pork in Israel (where Reform Judaism is attacked as ‘illegitimate’), but when I visited, I recall kosher and non-kosher Pizza huts. BTW, the first thing one notices upon arriving in Israel (prior to the more recent influx of Russians anyway) is how brown the place is – Yemeni Jews, Indian Jews, Irani Jews, Black Jews, and, of course, Arabs, all complaining about Azkenazi hegemony :-). Also, South Asian guys can get play there. Just tell the sabras you’re a Cochin Jew, they will either hug you and say “my brother!” or take you home.
they will either hug you and say “my brother!” or take you home.
but they find out you are not a cochin jew at some point….
something can be un-kosher due to the way it is prepared btw.
but they find out you are not a cochin jew at some point….
Then stay the $%^$ away from their machine guns. BTW all Israelis are conscripted at some point, and when active must carry their guns, even to movie theaters, shops, etc. It makes for a surreal atmosphere.
But I was just joking. More seriously, when in nightclubs and bars, some will indeed ask if you are jewish, but many don’t care. Did I say the women are exceedingly fine?
something can be un-kosher due to the way it is prepared btw.
yes
That’s not just a hug, it’s also a sneaky foreskin check 😉