With eerily apposite timing, Gallup released the results of a new poll on anti-Muslim sentiment in the US on Thursday, the same day that the British government announced that they had foiled a new home grown plot. Most news reports on this poll emphasized that 40% of Americans admitted prejudice against Muslims but that this prejudice was less amongst the 40% Americans who personally knew a Muslim. This is a positive, almost pollyanish spin on the data, one that emphasizes the precepts of the “contact hypothesis” [an argument that prejudice is rooted in a lack of daily interaction between two groups].
Other portions of this survey, however, are far more troubling. Remember that this poll was taken before the latest plot was exposed. [Both the graphics presented below are from the Gallup Organization’s own press release. To gain access, you just have to watch a brief ad.]
Americans are deeply suspicious of Muslim loyalties, with only half seeing Muslims as loyal to America, and a third seeing them as sympathetic to Al-Qaeda! This means that a sizable minority of Americans see all Muslims as a fifth column of subversion.
Given that one of the objectives that led to 9/11 was Al-Qaeda’s desire to prompt a Clash of Civilizations between the West and Islam, is this evidence that the terrorists are winning?
Speaking as a white American who knows plenty of muslims and has read the Koran, I see two things: 1. A large group of ordinary citizens who are good people and decent citizens who harbor no hatred towards the US. These are obviously the majority. But they’re a SILENT majority. 2. A small group of extremely vocal muslims who express a desire to bring down the US, Europe, India, or other countries, and march proclaiming allegiance to extremist Muslim organizations, like Hezbollah. The vocal minority gets almost all of the press, though it’s changing glacially on the major news networks.
The problem, the BIG PROBLEM, is that most of the time you do not hear the majority speak out against the extremists and that vocal minority. This morning CNN ran a story about the group arrested in Toronto, and only a few of the desi they interviewed were willing to speak out against ANY form of extremism. Most didn’t want to be interviewed on camera. Another great example is the show “30 Days” where a right-wing Christian went to live with a Muslim family in Dearborn for a month. He challenged them constantly on whey they never spoke out against extremists and they never had a good answer.
People in the US will continue to mistrust Muslims as long as the silent majority let the vocal minority speak for them.
I know a good many Muslims, and yes I think they are sympathetic towards Al Qaeda, and I believe they are loyal to the U.S. as long as they do not, in any stretch of the imagination, feel that their religion is being threatened. Do I think they will go pick up arms against the U.S./India, etc. No. But do they share a moment of, “I told you so,” or, “See what you got?” Yes. Even the editor of Newsweek, a Muslim Fareed Zakaria wrote in the days after 9/11 the feeling of strength among many Muslims the world over, including the U.S. that the “West” got “a bloody nose” from Muslims [for their “oppressive,” “imperialistic” foreign policy].
They send 10% of their earnings to their Mosques, and Mosques in the U.S. and U.K. and other Western nations have been recruiting stations for Jihadis, and have funded terror groups overseas. Indirectly many Muslims are involved.
They send 10% of their earnings to their Mosques, and Mosques in the U.S. and U.K.
You are confusing them with mormons.
As a result, 40% of Americans are willing to countenance some fairly un-American measures for combatting terrorism, including consideration of a “special ID”
That’s hot.
Bold statement Ennis! I know that Anna and Abhi have also commented on this before — the fact that five years on, no one in the major media or government seems to want to admit that 9/11 has severely undermined the fabric of N America’s civil society. It’s almost as if admitting to this means admitting a “loss”. But the longer such denial remains in effect, the more serious the problems become. Just look at these polls — five years on, it’s time for some honesty.
I think it is as expected.. Anyone (non Muslim) who picks up an online version of Quran/Hadiths/related stuff and reads its treatment of kafirs/non-muslims and relates it to the treatment non-Muslims receive in the so called ‘Islamic world’ would definitely have an anti-islamic view.. I believe this 40% is going to get higher..
That’s a fallacy. Community organizations have spoken out consistently, long since 9/11, denouncing terrorism. I don’t know whether average Muslims have denounced terrorism in your earshot, but I wouldn’t jump from that to assuming that this means tacit support. Consider a counter example – I haven’t heard most of the Americans I know condemn the recent rape and murder of a 14 year old girl and her family in Mahmoudiya, Iraq by 5 Marines, does that mean that they support this action? For the rhetorical-question impaired out there, of course not. Most Americans think this is a horrible criminal act. Furthermore, they would resent the assumption that they need to go around publically condemning the criminal actions of a minority in order to not be lumped with them.
Are Americans distrustful of all Muslims, including African American muslims, or only Muslims who look like they’re not American? We need to pay attention to how religion here is tied up with questions of race/ethnicity also. According to a survey commissioned last year by the American Muslim Council, African-Americans make up about 24% of the Muslim population of the U.S. (other estimates are as high as 42%) [http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa012601c.htm].
Does the African-American part of an African American Muslim override Muslim-ness? If yes, then we need to see this problem for what it is. American exceptionalism (which has a long history) that is now bring defined in religious terms.
That’s a good question Ashwin. I’ll bet most Americans don’t realize that 25% of Muslims in America are black (although aren’t some of these African immigrants?). And yes, in the USA, color is noticed before anything else, and often over-rides other characteristics.
@Maurice
There are more than 2 types of Muslims with varying shades of grey. I would say that the majority harbors no hatred towards American individuals, dislikes American foreign policy, loathes interference with any attempts at democracy (Hez & Hamas), destests American freedom and democracy that comes at the barrel of a gun and can’t understand why a group of people who purport to love the ballot don’t condemn their leadership for interference with Middle Eastern attempts at democracy. People in the Middle East will continue to distrust christians and/or Americans as long as the silent majority (don’t believe that democracy can be imposed violently from without)let the vocal majority (Administration, Bush Doctrine, “with us or against us”, Pat Robertson)speak for them.
@badmash
I would say that we are 7 points down with a 2-minute warning, no timeouts and 80 yards to go. If we want to make it to overtime we must (1) chuck the playbook that says they want to kill us b/c they hate democracy and short skirts and (2) look at the game plan that shows they want to kill the stability and predictability in our way of life b/c they perceive that we interfere with theirs.
“let the vocal
majority” minorityAdditionally, the muslim organizing community here in the US has been blasting consistantly positve press releases on how “not all muslims are terrorists”, and “we are American too” (Check out the work of CAIR or MAS) but for some reason, big media outlets like CNN don’t find THOSE stories as newsworthy as “muslims are terrorist.” I wouldn’t say the problem was the muslim community being silent, as much as the media conglomerate being biased and unbreakable.
As for the individuals that are too scared to speak- are you kidding me? Have you seen these numbers and what a scary place the US has become for Muslims these days? Traditional means of influencing political power, such as calling your local reprensentative, is something that my mom won’t do because she is afraid that “they” will track her down for “pro-muslim comments.” My parents, once important Muslim leaders in their Bangladeshi community, have completely toned down their activites, for fear.
I find the results of the gallup poll absolutely deplorable and makes me ashamed to call myself an American. As a Muslim American, 39% of my peers think I need to carry a special id, and as if flying while brown isn’t hard enough, 41% think the “Americans” will be safer if I get additionally checked at the airports. Protecting the civil rights of Desis, South Asian Americans, Muslims- ‘my people’- is what I’ve commited myself to fighting because I simply don’t think this is fair. But seeing these poll results are ridiculous, and simply shows how much of an uphill battle we are still fighting.
The problem with the [ ]s is that even the good ones are not doing enough to reign in the extremist ones. Why don’t they just speak out against the bad minority? Well, unfortunately, they’ll all have to pay for this, sooner or later. Yes, making them all carry ID or an identifying mark is a bit of a hassle, but democratically speaking, our people are behind it. And since the [ ]s are obviously not committed to [ ] values, in the interest of [ ] security we need some easy way of identifying and organizing them. Not for any sinister purpose, you understand, but so that…
Ennis, I’m not stating that silence is tacit support. Almost every Muslim I know doesn’t support terrorism, and there are certainly organizations that do speak out against terrorims, but the amount of speaking out, and the volume is so small as to not register with most Americans. As an example, despite the amount of known destruction that bin Laden has caused (the USS Cole bombing, the bombing of the two US embassies in Africa, 9/11), it wasn’t until a YEAR after the Madrid bombings that the Spanish Muslim leaders issued a fatwa against bin Laden (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/03/11/fatwa-050311.html). Why’d it take so long? I know that right after 9/11 the Council on American-Islamic Relations denounced the attacks and I do not mean to disparage their words or efforts, but truly, the impression in the US is that Muslims, while not agreeing with terrorists and their methods, sit in despondent silence rather than speak up.
And I think that most Americans distrust both traditional Islam and the Nation of Islam brand.
BTW, I really appreciate the way this discussion has remained constructive and civil as people disagree with each other. I, and my blood pressure, really appreciate that.
Look, please don’t misunderstand, I’m speaking in terms of what the average American perceives. Certainly as your average American, who consumes average media (as well as alternative sources of media) and talks with average Americans I can tell you what people perceive. I myself know that there are many shades of gray in the Muslim world, and that many Muslims have taken pains to speak out against the acts of bin Laden and others. I know Muslims, I’ve read the Koran, and I have a different opinion of what’s going on in the Muslim world than what most Americans know. What I perceive is a great struggle for power in Islam that is similar to the Protestant Reformation. You have differing sects and groups, like the Wahabis, and the Deobandis, and all of the other groups that are fighting for their idea of “correct Islam”.
I also think that this battle for the soul of Islam will get bloodier and uglier before it gets better.
I just want to differentiate that my first post is not an expression of my own personal feelings, but of those of the “Average American” ™.
Not sure where you’re going with that, but most African-American muslims actually do not belong to the nation of Islam.
hm.
a few issues
1) i think you are making too much of this poll. sometimes beliefs can be widely held & shallow. that is, most people aver a rather shocking belief, but they hardly think about, so be cautious of its depth. for example, recent polls have shown that atheists are the source of more hostility than homosexuals. but this is an illustration of the shallow & deep principle, in my right-wing high school i was open as an atheist (one of 5 non-whites in a schoo of 900). on the other hand, the gay kids regularly were insulted, beaten up, etc. my point is that the public my aver a greater hostility toward the image of atheism, but homophobia is far more deep-seated. in fact, the polls show more atheismphobia than islamophobia, but i don’t believe that. the reason there is more atheismphobia is that people haven’t been indoctrinated or “educated” to “say the right thing.” there isn’t a council at american atheism relations, or atheist human rights campaign, making people “sensitive.”
2) i’ll be straight up, 9/11 was a big deal, but it didn’t change everything. my parents are open muslims, but they don’t dress differently and admitted to their bangladeshi relatives that sikhs were in much more danger than muslims.
3) badmash’s comment about the tearing of civil society is something i disagree with. the number of americans who have nutcase views has always been rather high. most atheists know that most americans don’t want atheists teaching in public schools. but this never becomes an issue. why? it is a shallow belief.
4) after 9/11 john stossel interviewed many people about profiling muslims. he asked a few black youth on the street, and they were like, “yeah, they’re terrorists, take ’em off the plane.” then he was like, “well, what i said ‘black youth commit a lot of crimes, look at them more closely…'” all of a sudden the attitude changed, and they rethought their attitude toward racial profiling. my point is that some of these views might be less deep-seated than you think.
5) let me use another analogy. online dating services show that non-white males in particular are highly disadvantaged. white women respond a lot less to our adverts (and the majority of females are white). in fact, a recent survey showed that the median white woman asserted that an asian man would have to make hundreds of thousands of dollars for her to date him. now, how does it work in the real world? the only men dating white women are not $200 K year lawyers. this is a situation where people say one thing, based on expectations, beliefs and ideals, and do another when confronted with reality of their attractions not being totally informed by their beliefs. i have lived overwhelmingly white areas my whole life, have never made triple digits, am a rich brown color, etc., but i haven’t had many issues. i even lived in a 50% mormon area that was 80% republican. again, i didn’t perceive a problem getting dates. of course, i’m sure many women wouldn’t take me because of my race, but 50% of a pool of potentialities is still non-trivial.
6) my overall point is that we need to take a more nuanced perspective of human psychologies and keep in mind manifold disparate tensions and directionalities. polls assay the reflective mind. sometimes they are in depth, and explore deeply held beliefs. sometimes they are rather casual and trivial.
on muslims
a) i hold that the attitude of the average american muslim is similar to a southern baptist on most issues
b) this is a problem, if the median christian was a southern baptist than a methodist (methodists are median on most issues for xtian denominations) this would be a scary nation
c) religious muslims are affected by ‘reformist’ currents issuing from saudi foundations
d) american muslims are naturally affected by the manifest barbarism of the muslim world when looked through the lens of human rights
e) the fact that the vocal members of the community are emerging from immigrant communities means of course they will be detached and less ’embedded’ in national culture. additionally, black muslims (not nation of islam types, but the mainstream black muslims) are in my experience a particular alienated subset of blacks who are skeptical of the promises that this nation makes to its citizens (for obvious reasons)
I’m curious how the people polled would want to go from proposing ID cards (theory) to actually making people wear them (practice). Have a civil police force stand outside of a mosque after friday afternoon prayers and “pin the masses” as they come out? Or just haphazzardly make any brown person, who could be Hindi, Muslim, etc., wear them?
In return, I’d like to see the ghoras and others wear badges identifying themselves too…say by political party. I always like to know beforehand if someone’s conservative (most likely Republican) or liberal (most likely Democrat). Think they’d go for that?
i think you are making too much of this poll. sometimes beliefs can be widely held & shallow. that is, most people aver a rather shocking belief, but they hardly think about, so be cautious of its depth.
But hardcore extremism, which could eventually manifest into trouble and violence, is usually built on a foundation of a more generic or fully thought out sympathy.
i have lived overwhelmingly white areas my whole life, have never made triple digits, am a rich brown color, etc., but i haven’t had many issues.
Coping booty means nothing. Our own sexual proclivities run counter to our ideals very often. And when I was a clubbin man, my black friends got all the white booty they could have ever wanted. It didn’t reduce the incidents of driving while black, etc.
“Why don’t they just speak out against the bad minority?”
I would like an answer to that one too. Funny no one answered it directly (I mean like “Why I don’t speak out” rather than “Why I think they don’t…”)
We did. We said that “they” do through their organizations.
But hardcore extremism, which could eventually manifest into trouble and violence, is usually built on a foundation of a more generic or fully thought out sympathy.
sure, it is a necessary condition. but it isn’t sufficient. for widepspread violence against unliked minorities to occur the elites must get on board. that hasn’t happened over the past 150 years (from the irish riots, to the jewish anarchists and communists, etc.).
Our own sexual proclivities run counter to our ideals very often. And when I was a clubbin man, my black friends got all the white booty they could have ever wanted. It didn’t reduce the incidents of driving while black, etc.
i wasn’t using the dating example to directly imply a causal connection between that and hostility. i was using it as an analogy. my big point is this: most humans are unreflective and knee-jerk in their attitudes. you need to be cautious in terms of how much you read into polls. e.g., the polls in the muslim world often imply a lot of hostility to the united states. but that doesn’t mean that the 80% of muslims in country X are going to get on a jihadin’. so the number truly and hard-core prejudiced against muslims is probably a lot lower than the numbers above.
As a Muslim living in America, I have never really been threatened. I get some funny looks from strangers on account of my hijab, and I get asked interesting questions, but for the most part everyone is accepting and tolerant. Since 9/11, if anything, people have become more open to Islam.
@ Ponniyin Selvan “I think it is as expected.. Anyone (non Muslim) who picks up an online version of Quran/Hadiths/related stuff and reads its treatment of kafirs/non-muslims and relates it to the treatment non-Muslims receive in the so called ‘Islamic world’ would definitely have an anti-islamic view.. I believe this 40% is going to get higher..”
The parts which non-Muslims tend to read and the media tends to focus on are not really the parts that define Islam. Any religion requires more effort in order to be fully understood. Islam is not really getting that consideration through the media.
Anyway, my point is that, no matter what the polls say, the great majority of Americans (in the Midwest anyway) are very open, accepting, and tolerant. And the great majority of American Muslims take pride in their American-ness.
Exactly what does it mean to be “loyal to the United States”? If you immigrated here, how is that not evidence of your loyalty? Presumably, you value the economic opportunity, civil liberties (such as they are for Muslims), and the right to be secure in your property and possessions as you raise your family. Participating in this system should be sufficient evidence of loyalty. No one asks if American evangelical Christians are more loyal to their country than their faith–and I suspect the answer would be to God, as He guides His most favored nation to Destiny. So patriotism and godliness have become inseparable under Bush, meaning that if you don’t profess the one, you certainly can’t profess the other. Therefore, all non-Christians (except the Jews, who will get the message at the End Times or be vaporized) are–in the current political climate–de facto traitors.
Presumably, you value the economic opportunity, civil liberties (such as they are for Muslims), and the right to be secure in your property and possessions as you raise your family.
my parents didn’t immigration for civil liberties 🙂 they came for the $$$. i don’t know, perhaps they are less public spirited than all the other immigrants and immigrant parents (just trying to keep in real here).
No one asks if American evangelical Christians are more loyal to their country than their faith–and I suspect the answer would be to God, as He guides His most favored nation to Destiny.
the key is to always rework you faith so that being a traitor isn’t a possibility. many muslims, in my exp., haven’t done this, because an american islam hasn’t arisen yet. the bavarian catholics showed their metal against fellow german catholics during the austro-prussian war. the reason that some criticize some muslims are assertions like, “i can never fight another muslim.” christians have long had no problem killing other christians. and frankly, neither have muslims. the key for muslims seems to be that they are fighting for a non-muslim nation. but, some muslim scholars simply assert that the USA is a muslim nation because in this nation the practice of the religion is totally free. muslims need to accept this balderdash as truth to get along (most religion is sincerely held balderdash, so no worries).
I have railed against Islamic terrorism on this site and at the same time discounted White on minority racism. Whenever someone has brought up an incident that might have a whiff of racism, I have given the majority a benefit of the doubt. This bias comes from my own experience in America. In college and thereafter. Mostly predominantly White settings. I didn’t experience any White racism. Unfortunately I have been a victim of minority ( Black ) racism and more than on just one occasion. But there have been several more instances of Blacks being good to me.
I had also questioned the brouhaha over violation of Muslims’ civil rights after 9/11. The deportations, the intimidations e.t.c. I do believe that vast majority of Muslims in America are peaceful and law abiding. But I too have been dismayed by the lack of protests from the Muslim communities in the West ( particularly Europe ) against Islamic terrorism. They have after all been very prompt in coming out in huge numbers against the cartoons and for Hezbollah. I also gave a pass to the anti Muslim rantings on certain websites as a non violent reaction to the wickedly violent ways of Islamic terrorism. Though I conceded ( in an earlier comment )that these same people will effortlessly switch gears and badmouth immigration, outsourcing and Hindus. Which brings me to the recent events in Edison, NJ:
Long simmering tension between Edison’s growing Asian-Indian population and longtime residents boiled over yesterday at a rally organized by Indians to protest an alleged police brutality incident against a member of their community.
During the rally outside township hall, a group of about 60 Asian-Indian residents were met by a counter-protest of 40 mostly white residents defending the police department.
This is what some of the counter-protesters had to say; “How many of you are illegals? You must’ve slid under the border to come here! You’re all cockroaches! Go home!” “Act like animals, and you will be treated like animals. “They do not know unity, they are setting up their own country here. Obey the laws here or go back to your country.
and finally this :
Parikh stood among the Asian- Indian protesters yesterday, waiting to speak about the incident, when two men identifying themselves as agents with U.S. Immigra tion and Customs Enforcement took him into township hall for questioning. One told Parikh they had a warrant for his arrest.
These were Indian Hindus and not Pakistani Muslims, yet the same invectives and the same intimidation. Even though I stand by most of what I have said before, the above makes me wonder if I have only been half-right all along. I hope these White protesters are an anomaly and don’t represent a silent majority that stayed home.
Decontextualized, that’s as lucid a statement of faith as I ever care to have.
May we always wonder.
Decontextualized, that’s as lucid a statement of faith as I ever care to have.
I agree, wholeheartedly.
These were Indian Hindus and not Pakistani Muslims, yet the same invectives and the same intimidation. Even though I stand by most of what I have said before, the above makes me wonder if I have only been half-right all along
What do you expect? In America, the karma of Muslim folk is the karma of Hindu folk. The only difference may be that the perception of Indian Hindus among American elites is generally more postive.
Mr Kobayashi: I’m aware that Nation of Islam is not actually Islam in any stretch, but only by name. I’ve actually done a bit of reading about it so I’m familiar with the subject but I think that most Americans don’t understand the distinction between an actual Muslim and a practioner of NOI or the 5 Percenters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Gods_and_Earths)
What do you expect? In America, the karma of Muslim folk is the karma of Hindu folk. The only difference may be that the perception of Indian Hindus among American elites is generally more postive.
familiarity. whites raised among browns always say, “oh, so you’re muslim,” when they hear my name (e.g., a smokin’ blonde i met once from marin whose best friend was crispy).
Compare the Gallup poll results to this poll on Catholic priests:
I’m sure the number of problem priests is a fairly small number, but unfortunately the public perception of the priests and the manner in which the Church has handled the issue has been less than favorable. However one big difference is that Catholics themselves admit that there is a problem. Something that the Muslim community has refused to do. By blaming various external reasons for the extremism , rather than the fundamentalist views being taught in their mosques, the Muslim community and their public relations groups and representatives are only furthering the feeling of distrust of Muslims by the general populace.
Even with a last name like “Atheist” and a middle name like “the” ? Boy, what do they think when they meet GC 😉
Maharani
🙂 I think people see through this argument.. (mostly coming from folks who live as minorities in lands where Islam is not dominant..). They just have to look at the so called “islamic countries” for the parts that “really” define Islam.. Leave Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, even in the much touted “moderate” Malaysia, it is illegal for a Muslim to convert to another religion.. So curious people learn facts about Islam, just look around the state of the “islamic world” that reinforces the stuff they have read and instantly become anti-Islamic..
One way to overcome this is as Razib suggested, the “balderdash” of preaching America is more islamic than others as it follows the “real” teachings.. I don’t know if many people will buy it though.. I expect an increase in the percentage of people with anti-Islamic views..
I’ll be honest – I’m not fond of most Muslims. I withhold judgement until I get to know them, and a couple I got along well with. But I’m troubled by certain aspects. Of course, I am only speaking for my humble country. However, when the first generation occupy the lowest rungs of the social ladder, shouldn’t the next generation try to break out of that mold? Instead, they drop out of highschool or pursue vocational careers, finally ending up on welfare and never contributing anything substantial to society, although ironically their desire for expensive jewellery and flashy sports cars remains, along with an adherence to ideas that are archaic in the context of the currect values and norms of society. The few who do pursue a university or ordinary college education generally hold opinions that are balanced and articular. However I’m rather troubled especially by the rampant anti-Semitism amongst a lot of Muslims in this country, along with a sense of martyrdom. Surinamis, Antilians and Indonesians have been discriminated in equal measure, and yet these ethnic groups are considered well-integrated. I have no idea what Muslims in the USA are like, but I get the feeling that they are a lot better educated and more integrated into American society. When I pass groups of Moroccan, Arab or Turk-looking men on the street I tend to go out of my way to avoid them, much the same as I do with skinheads. I’m sorry, but that is just the way it is.
Actually, it isn’t. And this is a great example of the way we give some people the benefit of the doubt but not others.
Before you read on, make a guess as to how many American priests have been accused of molestation. Guess – 100? 200? You’re wrong by an entire order of magnitude.
According to Catholic sources, it’s at least 4%, almost 5,000 priests, which is significant:
Here’s an example from Ireland:
And that doesn’t even get into the cover up:
So 5,000 priests have been accused of molestation, and these acts were systematically hidden by the hierarchy. Do we feel that all priests support molestation? Do we walk around asking priests to condemn sexual abuse and ask them why they aren’t doing so more loudly? Or do we assue that they think it is bad? You yourself assumed that these were the acts of a tiny minority. Why not do so for Muslims.
ha!
here;s a man who’s near the tipping point.
I have one attitude to individuals, another another attitude to crowds.
Suppose that a Gallup pollster were to ask me “What do you think of Muslims?”. I would think of an undifferentiated crowd of Muslims, not an individual Muslim. Then I would say, “No, I don’t like Muslims”.
On the other hand, suppose that a Gallup pollster were to ask me “What do you think of Shah Rukh Khan?”. I would think of an individual Muslim, not an undifferentiated crowd of Muslims. Then I would say, “Yes, I like him”.
My point is this: the Gallup poll only elicited the attitude to an undifferentiated crowd of people, not the attitude to an individual. The attitude to an undifferentiated crowd of people is always negative. The only kinds of tolerable crowds are a wedding crowd or the crowd at a classical music concert.
As far as the Edison episode (Post 27) is concerned, I am not clear whether there is racism involved. After all, I have a poor impression when I see white crowds at a rodeo show.
Keep in mind though, most people’s reactions to Muslims in this country have a different root than those in America – here they are mostly formed by reactions to the trouble Muslims cause on the streets rather than global terrorism.
I have no idea what Muslims in the USA are like, but I get the feeling that they are a lot better educated and more integrated into American society.
yeah. thatz why they aren’t as nutz, they have houses to lose, and billz to pay.
Well here it’s the opposite. Often actually the first gen don’t even speak our language, so they have absolutely no control over their sons(it’s the boys that give problems, not the girls, they are mostly fine).
I take that back—there is racism involved, as the counter-protestors made unwarranted aspersions. Indeed the counter-protestors objected to the people, not to the behavior.
meena,
i believe the future of islamic terror will continue to be european muslims. they are a scary interlocking of necessary conditions to unlease this sort of social anomie (poor, alienated, deracinated and reideologized, etc.). american muslims have a potentially scary ideology, but their bourgieos lifestyle means that they don’t go down that path as far. poor immigrants without any cohering ideology are scary as individuals (random crime), but they don’t present an organized threat.
Oy. What a loaded subject. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts here; I frequent SM but don’t comment as much as I’d like to. I can’t resist this subject.
As a journalist and an active Muslim-American, I have to disagree with this statement. Muslims speaking out against extremists just does not make the news. As an Ahmadi Muslim, I know that my religious community (numbering 220 million worldwide) has been extremely vocal and active against extremism and terrorism long before 9/11. Yet the number of Americans who know of or have heard of our peaceful/tolerant views and activities against such nonsense is virtually nil. “Muslims Bomb Subways/WTC/Etc.” makes for better headlines and sells more papers than “Muslims speak out against extremism.” I invite anyone to do a search on this subject, my community, and try to find the media coverage. In relation to the activities and work the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community does worldwide, the disparity in coverage is particularly egregious.
That said, there is always room for more moderate Muslims to speak out. I do, however, appreciate Ennis’ comment:
Finally, I have a big problem with this:
The truth is, “so-called Islamic countries” have distanced themselves from true Islam so much that the religion itself is often lumped in with fascist, oppressive and extremist regimes who try to gain political power by distorting and abusing a religion. As an American, I believe the values that America stands for are much more aligned with the true Islam than Saudi/Pakistan/etc. Instead of looking at these extremist countries, why don’t more people study the true source itself?
What’s funny is that, in so-called Muslim countries such as Pakistan, even minorities who call themselves Muslim actually have to have special identification. As an Ahmadi, the Pakistani government considers me “non-Muslim,” even though I clearly identify myself as a Muslim. “Non-Muslim” is blatantly brandished on a Pakistani passport of Ahmadi Muslims. The persecution of this community is institutionalized there (and in other Muslim countries). It is PRECISELY this type of law that strengthens extremist and terrorist elements in a country like Pakistan. Persecution Ahmadis in Pakistan is directly related to Pakistan’s terrorism/extremism problem, yet, again, it is an issue that is blatantly ignored. It’s a joke that Pakistan is a member of the newly-formed UN Commission on Human Rights while it actively promotes such laws. Do Americans really want to send our democracy back into the middle ages by following Pakistan’s lead?
As an Ahmadi Muslim
hm. my family is friends with ahmadis. let me be frank: as an atheist, i accept that you are a muslim, but no sunni muslim i’ve met dones. in fact, even ‘moderate’ have bizarre conspiracy theories about your religion being a colonial plot or something.
in any case, for those of us who aren’t muslims, the ‘real islam’ is the brutal islam that your community experiences in pakistan. ye shall know them by their fruits….
to be precise, islam is simply a statistical distribution of behaviors. we are interested in the median behavior, and how we might change it. (as an apostate, i hope that the ‘consensus’ of death for the likes of me if i do not repent within a month is changed in the near future)
razib – I sort of figured. The trouble is that most Muslims here seem to look for external causes for their disadvantaged position, rather than do some soul-searching. It’s always the Jewish Domination, the Americans, well, someone else. I don’t deny that there is such a thing as racism. But the Muslims aren’t completely helpless.
Although, considering this past discussion on Catholic priests, interestingly America is the laughing stock here, among others because of the literal interpretation of the Bible that is so widespread. Everytime some professor mentions that shockingly only 50% of the Americans believe in evolution in some form most folks here are silently giggling in their fists.
Sorry if my comments are confusing or illegible, I’m not as comfortable in English as in Dutch, especially when it comes to writing.
Why? Even if the distribution is normal shaped, might I simply want to reduce the variance to get rid of the whackos at one end of the curve? And I’m really not convinced this distribution is normal, large numbers be damned. My gut says it’s pretty highly skewed in terms of behavior. Do you really think there are as many hyper-mosque goers as there are occassional mosque goers? I figure the curve is skewed towards the less observant side, with a long tail snaking out towards more and more intensely pious behavior. The less observant have little interest in violence, and only some of the intensely observant do.
The trouble is that most Muslims here seem to look for external causes for their disadvantaged position, rather than do some soul-searching.
yes, this is a problem, but in america you need to look to the future. the ‘culture of critique’ seems a new thing in the west itself, and as we know even here its roots are not deep. but my personal experience is that non-westerners, including non-muslims like the chinese, do not have familiarity or understanding this culture. shame dictates that one place the locus of mischief upon others if at all possible (we see this in our own lives as individuals everyday, it is a human bias). the immigrant generation is probably prone to this still because they still have not internalized all western mores. the 2nd gen has a better shot. the key is critique and decomposition of tradition.
my opposition to multicult is because i feel some westerners want to shield non-whites from the emergence of the culture of critique.