Globalization has made many things possible including the efficient exchange of all sorts of goods and services. Among these are ideas; scientists think nothing of collaborating across borders, and musicians can lay down tracks in one city and have them a genius producer someplace far away rearrange them overnight.
Some ideas don’t travel as well, however. What makes sense according to laws and customs in one place might be absurd or abhorrent somewhere else. Advice columnists — or as the British beautifully call them, agony aunts — have yet to globalize their business. But what if there’s demand? Today in Salon (thanks, Scott!), an Indian-in-India sista seeks to outsource her relationship counseling to Cary Tennis, the online mag’s advice-giver. And Tennis… almost punts, but not quite. Check it out. Here’s the woman’s situation:
… Arranged marriages have seen a resurgence in India and I suspect it is propelled by young people’s desire to shield themselves from heartbreak. I was one of those and I agreed to marry a doctor I met just once after I returned home from the States. I thought I was taking a very sane and levelheaded decision. He came from a good family and was well liked and respected in his hospital (all this info gathered through the extended family network that goes into operation for marital missions). He had no known addictions, was reasonably good-looking according to Indian standards (not my standards, I must point out, because I like muscular, clean-shaven men and he is neither). We came from similar backgrounds and our life goals seemed to match — raise kids, earn a lot of money and make our parents proud of us.
Three months into our marriage we had our first fight. It was nasty. We are still living apart.
Now I am not sure marrying him was such a great idea. He seems immature and his anger was shocking. Staying on in a marriage just because he is a doctor seems wrong now. I thought my decision would be right because it was dispassionate. But now I think the lack of passion should have been a warning sign. The fact that I wasn’t physically attracted to him should have been enough to decide against marrying him.
How do I know if I made a huge mistake? Divorce is a big deal here, especially in my religion. But I figure the sooner we break up the easier it will be. Then again, who am I kidding? I probably won’t muster up the courage to break up the marriage until he does something really horrible…
And here are excerpts from Tennis’s reply:
I do not know what it is like to be from India but I know what it is like to live with the choices I have made. … I do not know what it is like to be in an arranged marriage but I know that all marriages are in a sense arranged — by relatives, by the rain, by smiles and secret dances; by children whose arrival can no longer be postponed, by the intersection of ripening desires, by thirsty hope meeting cool water.
So you ask an American what to do. To do what an American would do would be disastrous, I fear. …
I would try to live within what you have already done. I would attempt to carry out the plans you had when you decided to marry: Have lots of children and make a lot of money. Absent one of the limited general grounds for divorce available to you under Indian divorce law … I would try to see this thing through. …
Most men are flawed; they have an ugly side. You probably do too. Within limits, this is intimacy.
Not all mistakes can be undone. Some mistakes are to be lived with. The undoing can be messier than the mistake.
Beyond that, I cannot say much. I do not know what it is like to be from India. I do not know what it is like to be in an arranged marriage. I only know what it is like to live with the choices I have made.
OK, so with that last paragraph Tennis basically pleads ignorance, which I suppose is fair enough. But then, why have spent the rest of the lengthy reply basically talking her out of challenging or ending her marriage? Why not have simply refused to take up the question, to pull this question from the pile?
Or perhaps Tennis is right, and “suck it up, kiddo” is the best advice for this woman’s situation?
I can’t help but feel that Tennis is treading too cautiously here, haunted by the idea that India is so much more conservative a society that “what an American would do” is not simply irrelevant, but actually the opposite of what an Indian should do.
I wonder (not a rhetorical question — I sincerely wonder) what Dan Savage would say if confronted with the same question. Would he tell her to DTMFA?
it is funny ppl should fault tennis for not having an opinion when this thread—presumably consisting of ppl who are much more capable of understanding the situation—cannot decide one way or the other.
it seems to me that “thinking before talking” has become “straddling the fence”. i don’t think he could have had an opinion on this one. it is sort of clear that maybe no one is abusing anyone. so by asking her to try and make it work, he is leaving room for the fact that it may be no one’s fault really, and for potential immaturity on the plaintiff’s side also. or maybe this letter was just written in anger, who knows?
and i strongly disagree with #1, puliyogre,
no way. you should also consider the spot he is in—how do tell newlyweds to divorce when you have no clue what is really happening? and if he really did think india is “some backwards place”, he would have asked her to quit, not stay on.
i have never read tennis, but contrary to what many of you say, i think i respect him for this response. it is well thought out.
I also had an arranged marriage but I grew up mostly in America unlike the girl who wrote the letter. But it doesn’t matter where you grow up. Its your attitude that matters. I feel sorry for both of the couple because nobody seems to have told them the rules.
I got some great advice from my husbands best friend D. She had gone thru tramatic first years in an arranged marriage and turned it into the greatest love affair I’ve heard of! I seriously think she should write a book about it. The following is relatively serious honest advice from me and D, for people who want an arranged marriage. It helped our marriage, though only four years old.
Rules for arranged marriages:
Before marriage… 1. You must be virgins with clean past. (if you’re not and not planning to confess, then take Shaggys advice: it wasn’t me. And DONT ever bring up/meet past lovers after marriage.) 2. You must be at least somewhat attracted to the guy/girls’ looks and personality. If not you are a gold digger. 3. Know each others true value. (people always estimate themselves higher and expect too much from the other.)
After marriage… 1. First year IS GOING TO BE ROCKY!!!! You will have fights. If you don’t have major fights, then you are a wierd, space alien/robot with no personality or opinion.
2. You ARE going to look at your husband/wife on some days and think ‘Who is this FREAK I married’??? You will be in the middle of a blow out fight and think ‘Is he/she psycho/bipolar/posessed?’ 3. Try not to go to bed angry. Resolve your disagreement even if you have to dig deep. 4. Don’t complain to your parents/siblings/friends about little fights; deal with them yourself. Your relatives/friends will magnify everything due to their loyalty to you and your loyalty to your spouse will be diluted. 7. Dont barter affection/sex. 8. Dont be negative and critical. Marriage should be a safe haven for couples. Dont’ be afraid to point out bad behavior but avoid nitpicking on little things. This is important especially with Indians who can be sensitive about cultural/language differences. My husband goes nuts if I critisize India or his mommy. 😉 Everyone is nutty about something. 9. Ego kills marriages! Always think where you went wrong and apologize for it!
10. Tell each other encouraging positive words other than just ‘I love you’. Self-esteem helps build a strong marriage.
Ultimately, marriage make us better people. It works when both follow the rules. Most of us who have arranged marriages don’t have abusive relationships and I’m not advising anyone to stay in emotionally/physically abusive relationships. If your husband/wife throws beer bottles at you, start running.
D told us that the turning point in her marriage came when her husband held her hand and promised her “We can have the biggest fights, but I’ll never leave you. You don’t need to have a job, children, money. I’ll never leave you. no matter what anybody says or even if you tell me to go I’ll never leave you.” D and I had tears in our eyes. We’ll take our arranged marriages and our husbands, warts and all.
rasudha, nice list. Rankings are certainly debatable but each point is valuable in its own right. The only thing I would disagree with is this:
I think it should read, “You must be honest.” It doesn’t mean open the floodgates and spill every thought that may have once travelled through your neurons but be honest about yourself and forthright with your spouse. Sure, tactics have a role (ie. “it wasn’t me”) but for must first generation desi’s in the west the bifurcation of social norms (family vis-a-vis society) makes pre-marital sexual relationships very hard to hide or use the “it wasn’t me” approach. Given the seemingly conflicting social norms and attitudes, once the clothes come off, a desi is often drastically affected by a sexual relationship, perhaps both negatively and positively, especially if it occurs in the porous yet formative years of 16-25. Interpreting my claim might lead one back to supporting your claim that virginity is vital but I still disagree and I will explain why.
Virginity is intricately but not uniquely related to point #9 for most men (Ego kills marriages!). Perhaps the ego/virginity relationship is more complicated today because virginity isn’t embedded in socio-economic institutions as it used to be- ie. “In these traditionally patriarchal societies, wealth is inherited from a man to his eldest son. Therefore, it is/was particularly important for a man to know his wife was a virgin so that disputes to estates could not arise; similarly, today the heir to a throne must marry a virgin for a similar reason” (wiki). While I think that explanation has some merit, I think virginity in our modern desi society is about expectations, subtle linkages to past partners, and anxiety as to what the loss of virginity means in a psycho-social sense- ie. is this person promiscuous? untrustworthy? too liberal? too susceptible? overly affectionate? For males, its usually about domain or essentially power and authority. For the dual-cultural desi male, it’s a tough thing to wrestle with- how much ego do you acquiesce for the good of the relationship, assuming it is a good relationship? Again, as you say, “ego kills marriages” but ego is also very important for us so it can’t be completely suppressed. Humans are a semi-pack animal afterall. Social networks are vital and the upkeep requires ego.
It’s important issue in my opinion because while many will say that the costs of sex have decreased rapidly within the last 50 years, the true costs, in my opinion, have an upward tilt because premarital sex creeps up more often in marital relationships.
Anyhow, my rant has ended.
Not necessarily. However, most people, especially in desi society, place excessive emphasis on what “society” expects/dictates and on following second-hand so-called “received wisdom” (rather than figuring things out for themselves or basing their judgements/decisions on direct personal experience); to some extent there is also excessive deference towards the opinion of “elders”, who are unfortunately often wildly misguided and misinformed about some matters.
JoaT made a good point on another thread recently about how many desi parents just blindly follow the example of their own parents, rather than attempting any independent thinking in terms of how they bring up their children. The same concept applies to many aspects of the desi approach to life in general (broadly-speaking, although some people who decide to be “unconventional” sometimes go too far to the opposite extreme).
I think that living out here in the West gives the rest of us the opportunity to think more “freely” and really critically — and honestly — evaluate matters, especially issues pertaining to desi culture and attitudes. To some extent, many people back in India seem to lack common sense about some areas (and there is a lot of superficially-rational-sounding but highly linear/narrow thinking), but I guess their environment and upbringing do not allow them to really be aware of this because they’re immersed in an atmosphere where everyone else they interact with is similarly misguided. In time, these attitudes/behaviours/customs become “tradition”, and the cycle continues.
(No offence to any recent arrivals in the West here on SM — Technophobicgeek etc — I’m sure you would agree that sometimes one needs to remove oneself from a certain environment in order to be able to really think clearly and objectively about it).
Just like nation states, the institution of marriage too, shall wither away…
There are several complicated factors and differences. The average young person embarking on a search for a partner in India has for the most part always lived at home and a younger than his/her American desi counterpart. So s/he is greener in terms of experience with the world, people, independence of mindset and choices. Even something as simple as having lived on your own and paid rent and balanced a checkbook can bring incredible perspective to a relationship.
So many women I know in my own family have for the most part despite being very educated have been academics, never really had any major job they could call careers, if they did they knew that a husband would put an end to it, never had to worry about paying rent, never thought twice about blowing their own paycheck or the responsibility of the family and have breezed thru childhood into young adulthood.
To me it sounds utterly scary that someone like that would enter marriage with someone else who is in the same boat. And we are talking about your average middle class from Mumbai so I can’t speak for other people elsewhere in the country. You mix that culture with this culture, it’s bound to cause friction. I’ve lost count of how many people I went to high school with who went to India to get married and have gotten divorced in a few years. There are so many things people simply fail to consider.
I really hope not UMM because the institution is bound to tradition and culture and respect in a relationship and community/society, not to mention legality and rights which are unsexy but necessary.
Ya think??? You mean the three emails exchanged before the engagement party won’t be enough?
This is utterly dangerous thinking. Going into any relationship with the thinking “I’ll never leave no matter what” is probably single most cruel act a married couple can do, assuming they have children. A child growing up under “the biggest fights” grows up self-loathing, period. Continuous negative energy propogates more negative energy, nothing positive can come out of it. This is why the arranged marriage system should be crushed, like a beer can on some jock’s head.
I understand the logic of “We grew up in a bullshit system, and we had no choice but to make the best of it,” that’s a product of circumstance, but to likewise defend the practice and do nothing to stamp it out is socially irresponsible.
And these little “hybrid” forms of arranged-love marriage are useless as well. To really understand it, you have to delve deep into the scriptural and social history of what marriage signifies in the collective Indian mind, and it’s very different from other cultures. Don’t let anyone fool you otherwise, our culture (I mean the hindu-muslim mish mosh social practices) has a very unique take on the institution, why it should be entered, the conduct one should display during it, and how it should be [not] terminated.
And these little “hybrid” forms of arranged-love marriage are useless as well. To really understand it, you have to delve deep into the scriptural and social history of what marriage signifies in the collective Indian mind, and it’s very different from other cultures.
Sweeping statements. And yet arranged marriages of whatever variety so know signs of seriously abating in India, even among the middle class. In fact, technology is now being used to facilitate arranged marriages. I find that many people who post on marriage threads either have been in a bad marriage and need to therapeutically vent, or are in the midst of what is to them an epochal fight between themselves and their parents about a boyfriend or a girlfriend deemed “unsuitable.” While love marriages are wonderful, the majority of people have an “ego ideal” that, if they are honest with themselves, is simply not attainable. And while love can be real, it doesn’t neccesarily come to everyone. And therein lies its fragility.
Please tell me you are being sarcastic…
You say….
.
Yet you make…
With all due respect I find the above generalization terribly offensive. We all don’t have to be in a fire to know that it burns. Jeez.
Tennis isn’t sitting on the fence. She didn’t even give him a fence to sit on. What he did was to outline how to approach making her decision. I think he did well.
Also, reading the expanded version of her letter, I can feel sympathetic about how she entered this marriage. From her previous experiences she had no faith in her judgment and decided to go about getting married the standard way – except her version of what is standard was too extreme. Immature, yes, but she was in her 20’s.
Wrong on both counts, when you hear from one of your elders that “every marriage” in their parents generation, their parents parents generation, etc.. was unhappy, it suggests a deeper analysis than the one you’ve given. Chopping people’s heads off also show no signs of abating in certain parts of the world, it doesn’t mean its a sound practice.
Here’s the intrisnic paradox: What’s the main reason for arranging a marriage? Because the “arranged parties” won’t come together at the “right” time by their volition. And “right” is strictly used in a biological sense, especially for the woman, it’s the “right” time for child-bearing. Right time in the sense, the woman is most “fertile”, and both the woman and male are young/energetic enough to care for the child, etc.. etc..
So theoretically it’s all for the child, correct? But how does a child benefit from being raised in an environment where the parents have decided to stay together “no matter how many fights they have.” Or a better question to ask, what kind of environment exists when the two parents haven’t had adequate time to work out deap seated incompatibilities? Wouldn’t it be more socially responsible to admit a mistake was made and quit while you’re ahead? The very child who’s supposed to be the ultimate beneficiary of the system, actually suffers the most. Nice, huh?
No von Mises,
Your rant makes a lot of sense. I knew this was not going to be popular rule. Many people date before marriage and then when they fail to marry that way, they go marry an Indian(from this country or that) in an arranged marriage. I’m not saying its bad. It’s ok if you are HONEST about it, like you said, before marriage. (ie, I dated this person/these people and we were lovers…but it didnt work out.) But many are not honest before marrying. And they want to talk all about it afterwards. The problem arises if your partner had other expectations from you.
Totally true. There’s going to be a lot of emotional baggage from previous relationships. If your experience was negative, then its going to affect your marriage. How to avoid it?
I’m not saying people with past relationships should avoid arranged marriages. What I’m saying is make sure the person you marry is ok about it. Try to find someone who doesn’t have vastly different experience from you. If you blundered into a marriage without disclosing all, then keep it quiet. Never bring it up during fights. This is not PC, just practical.
Many in my parents generation make the claim that their marriages are fulfilling and satisfying; that doesn’t mean that all of them are. But since this is a central plank of your argument, I would be interested in seeing what data you have to support it?
Chopping people’s heads off also show no signs of abating in certain parts of the world, it doesn’t mean its a sound practice.
The point I make is that very many people who may volitionally choose otherwise opt for arranged marriages still, so much so that arranged marriages show no real signs of abating. I know plenty of people whose parents would not have objected in the least if they brought someone home opting instead for an arranged marriage. People may not want to be “reformed” in the way you hope.
So theoretically it’s all for the child, correct?
Not really. There is also companionship to combat the lonliness that sinks in when we don’t have the readily available peer groups we had as children; financial stability; affection and shared values and interests … In fact, some desi parents view marriage as a cure-all for social maladjustment…that is certainly dangerous. But children is not a terrible reason.
Again, this is based on your belief that most marriages are terribly unhappy. Here’s what I think: The people hurt most by unhappy marriages are the one’s who shout loudest. There is nothing wrong with that – it is what it is, but it tends to skew the discussion.
And is there not an American study that shows that the children of married households fare better than the children raised in single-parent environments? Do you find desi children, who are the victims of such marriages, to be socially inept or maladjusted? More so than average? Also, I did recommend divorce in this case. Its absolutely the right thing in many cases.
Janeofalltrades: I said “many”, not “all” or “most”. But nevertheless if you were offended I apologize.
Hey wait a second, some people in their 20s have very good judgement 😉
HMF:
I know children growing up in a bad marriage get a bad deal. But Ds story not that at all.
She had an arranged marriage and had to move to another country. She suffered from lack of confidence, a miscarriage and was unable to work due to depression. She had lot of emotional problems and gave her husband a very tough time fighting with him all the time in the first year of her marriage. His relatives gave up on her. Her husband realized where a lot of anger came from and stood by her. She told me that him standing up for her at her lowest really helped her get well. She told me that she respected him and hearing him say that he wouldn’t leave her really helped her see things differently. That he was not the enemy to fight. Now they are amazing together. She is a great mother too. I met her after all this happened and was shocked to hear that this great couple went thru so much.
Nobody looks at arranged marriages from scriptural point of view. Or Social history. It doesn’t matter. What we want is a nice guy/girl with similar background with whom we can talk the same language, share our culture/religion/values and merge tribes. Helps if they are hot. I think you are being too prejudiced. You should refrain from advising people on arranged marriages in the future.
No fair man, admins can’t be trolls 😉 You know what I mean, if she had been in her 30’s and done the same thing it would not be very easy to sympathize with her. Speaking sloppily, a certain amount of life experience is expected by the time you’re in your 30’s whereas people in their 20’s may or may not have such experience/perspective.
I am sure that you do, though 🙂
HMF:
I disagree here. Historically, marriages were for the most part arranged inorder to fuse as much of the socioeconomic, religious, political, and cultural variance as possible. Social hierarchies were more rigid and failure to mesh the above factors could lead to destabilizing tension for the group/village/family. The arranged system arose because the costs of failure were too high- life expectancies were too low (in 1820 Britain, life expectancy for males was 27!) and children were essentially an investment model for cohesion and survival of the unit.
Was it a perfect system? Absolutely not, the quality of the relationship between man and wife was not very important. Nonetheless, it was a decent arrangement for an entirely different way of life.
Even today I think the desire to correlate as much of the socioeconomic, religious, political, and cultural variance as possible is a greater motivation for arranged marriages than the notion of not coming together on ones own volition.
People often “choose” to have arranged marriages because they lack the interpersonal skills needed to be able to find a suitable partner themselves and sustain the relationship. Occasionally (not always, by any means) they may not be sufficiently physically attractive to be able to, well, attract a suitably foxy partner of their own accord, either through no fault of their own or because they may not be doing themselves justice in some way.
Other people just go for this route because, for one reason or another, they just didn’t manage to find the right person via their own efforts.
And others will have been given no choice in the matter. It’s not unknown for Indian parents to deliberately reject girlfriends/boyfriends purely as a point of principle — to enforce their authority over their (adult) children and/or to reinforce their objection to the whole “love marriage” concept — even if there is actually nothing objectionable about the proposed son/daughter-in-law at all. It’s just an exercise in power.
In addition to the above, there is a lot of misinformation within “traditional” Indian culture regarding what constitutes a “good” potential spouse — exacerbated by naive/inexperienced parents who may be in dysfunctional marriages and/or had little pre-marital relationship experience themselves. The woman in the main article is a example of someone who took this path, if you read the reasons she initially thought her husband was good marriage-material and her extremely limited pre-marital contact with him. Sometimes it takes a degree of trial-and-error personal life experience to really be able to know what “really” matters in one’s choice of partner, along with how to make a relationship work — although you also need to have the self-awareness and presence of mind to learn the “right” lessons (apart from, again, the woman in the main article, there are plenty of younger desis around who have had a huge amount of relationship experience — some more dubious than others — but are still fairly incompetent in their ability to maintain a healthy relationship and misguided in terms of what they want in a partner).
A handful of meetings with a person who does X for a living and comes from a “good” family is not sufficient basis to be able to make an informed decision about this. It takes time, chemistry, and a number of other factors regarding mutual compatibility to build up a relationship enough to be able to really know that you want to spend the rest of your life with them. The level of guesswork and assumption (along with quite superficial “criteria” regarding potential spouses) that goes on within Indian culture in this regard is sometimes quite staggering.
The data I have is empirical, from personal observation. To be honest, I’m not sure of any studies out there, and I’d be skeptical of them if they do exist. Because I believe people who might be unhappy, would be likely to report they are happy and fulfilled. All I can say is, I know many a couple that have stayed together because they were worried others would think about them.
It’s the frog in the well syndrome. When all you know is one way, one method, one system, then of course your proclivity will be towards it. But as far as I’m concerned, it’s cyclic. Bad Marriage –> Fucked up kid –> enters bad marriage –> fucks up their kid –> etc..
These are all subordinate to children. Just ask any desi married couple who’ve been married, for uhh, 3 femtoseconds, what their parents want them to do next.
I agree with all of your post up until here. Yes, in pre 20th century, marriages were arranged for business purposes, and adhere to social heirarchies, or political alliances. But the key is the timing. And thats the crux of the entire problem. If marriages were arranged, but the timing was left to the individual, I’d say 90% of the problems wouldn’t occur. It’s that the married parties are forced, intimidated, guilted into it before they are ready, and don’t have enough time to emotionally mature, pursue their own ambitions, fully investigate their partners character, etc.. etc.. And the primary reason, as far as I know, for the timing is continuation of the kula (lineage)
But this is a really important point that I think few understand. Our (Hindu) scriptures are the only one in the history of mankind to actually prescribe marriage. According to Taitriya Bramhana, ch11,: it says, “anyone who does not enter marriage is an incomplete person” Neither the Bible, Torah, or Koran prescribe marriage (The Koran suggests it, 24:32, and the talmud as well) Does this mean every Hindu reads it and says “Oh wait we need to get married now, it says it right here!” No!
However, it’s a foundation for the prevalent belief system now. And you say “Nobody looks at it….” Congratulations, you just defined what a foundation is: You stand on it, are supported by it, without ever knowing it’s there and thinking about it.
Belief systems are systemic and change very very very slowly. Just look how long the it took the American whiteman to realize it was wrong to enslave another man based on the color of his skin.
“In addition to the above, there is a lot of misinformation within “traditional” Indian culture regarding what constitutes a “good” potential spouse — exacerbated by naive/inexperienced parents who may be in dysfunctional marriages and/or had little pre-marital relationship experience themselves.”
If marriages were arranged, but the timing was left to the individual, I’d say 90% of the problems wouldn’t occur. It’s that the married parties are forced, intimidated, guilted into it before they are ready, and don’t have enough time to emotionally mature, pursue their own ambitions, fully investigate their partners character, etc.. etc.. And the primary reason, as far as I know, for the timing is continuation of the kula (lineage)
Not necessarily true. There are no set and fast rules for the timing of a marriage that I’m aware of. I know ppl who got married at 20, and others at 32. And things change with the age, eg., not long ago, child marriages were prevalent among upper castes, but now the great majority of middle class people would not dream of going this route. The marriageable age has been pushed back with each successive generation to the point where 30 is considered an acceptable age for a guy. Yes, fertility is a constraint, but where isn’t it?
But this is a really important point that I think few understand. Our (Hindu) scriptures are the only one in the history of mankind to actually prescribe marriage. According to Taitriya Bramhana, ch11,: it says, “anyone who does not enter marriage is an incomplete person” Neither the Bible, Torah, or Koran prescribe marriage (The Koran suggests it, 24:32, and the talmud as well) Does this mean every Hindu reads it and says “Oh wait we need to get married now, it says it right here!” No!
But traditionally, one could become a sanyasin whenever one pleased, so in theory, the existential chain could always be shattered. Also its misinformed to read the Vedas and make generalized statements about India, b/c 1) not everyone followed them; 2) traditions were determined more by local “achara” (custom) than by textual sources. Also, the dharmashastras allow for several types of marriages, including love marriage (gandharva) and a marriage where a man took a wife after raping her! (pisacha). Even if the commentators valued these marriages less than arranged marriages, it still demonstrates that societal practices were not monolithic.
Well said Jai (post #69)
I’m not sure which country you’re talking about, because from personal experience, any male who has waited past age 26 or female past 24 has continually been reminded they are not married yet, and that it’s a problem. In your statement, you gloss over the fact that those males that do wait until 30 are usually guilted, intimidated, etc etc into it. Fertility isn’t as much of a constraint in cultures that don’t hold natural continuation of the kula as highly as we do.
This is a small minority as I’m sure you’re well aware. You cannot use the exception to prove the rule.
I quoted the Upanishads, not the Vedas. The Upanishads were sort of summaries that applied to more “practical” affairs. And it seems my point wasn’t understood fully, I’m arguing the “acharam” is rooted in an understanding and adherence to scripture – but in an implicit manner, rather than a direct “following.”
I assume you’re talking about the Manu Smrti, I actually didn’t know about the sapta-vivaaha as you call it, but I think it actually supports my claim even further. These people imparted such a basic value to marriage, they actually defined 7 different types!
Oops, sorry thought you said seven types of marriage. Do you have any resources describing these? Im genuinely curious.
I’m not sure which country you’re talking about, because from personal experience, any male who has waited past age 26 or female past 24 has continually been reminded they are not married yet, and that it’s a problem. In your statement, you gloss over the fact that those males that do wait until 30 are usually guilted, intimidated, etc etc into it. Fertility isn’t as much of a constraint in cultures that don’t hold natural continuation of the kula as highly as we do.
And in a previous era – as little as two generations ago – it was 12 and 8! My point is that “tradition” is not as fixed as some claim it is. I cannot challenge your experience, perhaps the people I know are entirely unrepresenataive, so I’ll leave it at that.
But this was an exalted and highly respected minority, and for the most part, still is. I raise it to show that while marriage is important, it was not everything.
Not to be pedantic, but I think you quoted the Brahmanas, which are ritual manuals used by Brahmins in the performance of Vedic yajnas. The Upanishads are generally mystical texts. Both of these, along with the samhita (Vedic hymns) and the aranyakas (text for preliminary renunciates) are categorized as the “Vedas.”
Not just the manusmriti. There are variations to be found all over the place. Categorization was not limited to marriages. For example, Manu “categorizes” over ttwenty mixed castes that arose out of a combination of the varnas. If you read any of the dharmashastras, you will find mind-numbing categorization of all sorts of things.
Oops, sorry thought you said seven types of marriage. Do you have any resources describing these? Im genuinely curious.
Here you are. This from the previous Shankaracharya of Kanchi’s book “Hindu Dharma,” – considered highly orthodox.
Look at it positively. Arranged marriages offer an endless source for Indian writers, journalists and filmmakers living in the west (especially the UK) to offer variations on the Romeo and Juliet/bastard Indian parents theme. It’s a constant source of cliched pleasure and exagerrated acting and comedy.
Why, only last year there was a movie released in a flea pit in Preston called Chicken Tikka Masalaa (I kid you not) which was about a gay Indian guy who has his marriage arranged for him. It was supposedly a ‘comedy’ in the ‘tradition’ of ‘gay British Asian’ themed ‘arranged marriage’ ‘comedies’ but was actually the nadir of British Indian cinematic culture, where no cliche was left alone, and no stereotype was allowed to rest in peace, an affront to brown human dignity in England.
So hail the arranged marriage! Source of eternal confusion and voyeurism of Indian life, and the main reason for a level of artistic laziness and cliched depravity unavailable to any other minority group in the whole of the western world.
(I mean how many ‘zany’ ‘ironic’ ‘spirited’ romantic comedies have you seen set in Manchester’s Chinese community, or amongst the Jamaican middle-class of North West London?)
And I have not even mentioned TV soap operas, Saturday evening hospital dramas, or special reports on news programmes, theatre plays for chin scratching white liberals, or the monthly newspaper/magazine reports sneering at the Asians with their funny customs.
Arranged Marriages have kept two generations of useless, second rate British Asian actors in employment and away from starvation. Don’t diss them.
But seriously though, I think she should leave the man. I once went through one of those knee jerk phases when every white girl who asked me about arranged marriages would face a wall of indignation from at her cultural chauvinism and hegemony, and I would end a long and passionate lecture with the flourish about how the Royal Family practised arranged marriages of a kind, to which she replied. ‘Yeah but look at how fucked up they are, every single one ended in divorce and adultery and tragic death’, to which I could not respond, and so sulked.
But if you have a sly mind on you and are single, I once had a white girlfriend who thought it really sexy that I was being hounded by my family to ‘accept invitations to meet’ – she had watched enough B movies and Saturday night BBC TV dramas to understand that it was only a matter of time until I was to be kidnapped by my family and forced to marry a village idiot or face death at the hands of a halal butcher. This illicit aspect of our relationship was extremely kinky and sexy to her for some reason.
Frisson of the illegal or something like that. So use it to your advantage.
“And in a previous era – as little as two generations ago – it was 12 and 8! My point is that “tradition” is not as fixed as some claim it is. I cannot challenge your experience, perhaps the people I know are entirely unrepresenataive, so I’ll leave it at that.”
That’s outrageous, I know no one who was married two generations ago at age 8. I would say those marriages were more for political or business reasons (Marry my daughter you’ll get 3 cows and shit like that) Perhaps it’s a community based thing. Im speaking of educated peoples living in cities etc.. , I understand tradition is a function of time. But, unfortunately its a slowly varying function of time.. and it takes discussions like these, and views like mine to change them.
“But this was an exalted and highly respected minority, and for the most part, still is. I raise it to show that while marriage is important, it was not everything.”
Yes, and thats why droves of parents are just rushing to the ashramas to sign their kids up? And actually, sannyasis in the Ramanuja order were able to take wives and become renunciate after taking permission from their wives. In fact, it was encouraged. Sankara order sanyasis didn’t do it as much, if ever, and I’m not sure about Madhva.
“Not to be pedantic, but I think you quoted the Brahmanas, which are ritual manuals used by Brahmins in the performance of Vedic yajnas. The Upanishads are generally mystical texts. Both of these, along with the samhita (Vedic hymns) and the aranyakas (text for preliminary renunciates) are categorized as the “Vedas.””
I stand corrected, The Taitriya upanishad exists as well, but speaks on something completely different. We’ve deviated from the original point of marriage having deep seated roots in Hindu scripture, more so than any other religion on the face of the planet, and these principles being conveyed in a subtextual, generational sense, rather than a strict “do this or you’re going to hell” way, still stands.
For those who aren’t really familiar with the process as it has evolved today, I try to draw an anology of how traditional Italian or Jewish families from the east coast (the anecdotes I’m familir with) try to ‘set up’ their sons/daughters with others in the community they know. Not so much as pointing out a person and setting the marriage up, as much as simply facilitating a match, though Indian families are slightly more involved (to varying degrees). As they understand the fundamental concept better, I dive into further details of how diverse the institution of arranged marriage is, too, as discussions in this thread show.
First, one needs to draw their curiosity that it isn’t what they truly think it is, then slowly feed bits of information setting up the basics. After the light bulb clicks that it isn’t a breeding farm where the male and female are throw together without and choice (population of India would say otherwise), you have more leeway in explaining the nuances.
It’s the little details that make life worth living.
Like “halal.”
Thanks Red Snapper.
My mother just amended my personal on shaadi.com to allow divorcees WITH CHILDREN to enquire about me. That shows how desperate they are.
Me personally, I love the fantasy of a shy and demure girl winking at me on the sly across a room full of rishtey, over the samosas and cups of tea. Then I wink back, and she lifts her dupatta slightly and licks her lips in porn star style, and as our respective families respectfully discuss the weather, their recent holiday in Dubai, and the impossibility of finding car park space in Southall on Saturday afternoons, a secret and solemn bond is made between me and her, and all is decided by the time the gulab jaman are served.
But alas! Where can I ever find a lady such as that, who is also intellectually compatible? By that I mean, who also likes comics and football?
It is a mirage. I don’t have anything against dentists, but I seem to have been introduced to a lot of them, and I actually think I have had more than one rejection on the basis of my teeth. And they call me shallow.
Arranged marriages, what a fun ride they are.
Yes, and thats why droves of parents are just rushing to the ashramas to sign their kids up? And actually, sannyasis in the Ramanuja order were able to take wives and become renunciate after taking permission from their wives. In fact, it was encouraged. Sankara order sanyasis didn’t do it as much, if ever, and I’m not sure about Madhva.
Oh but I have life-long bachelors in my family too 🙂 They are considered eccentric but by no means are they ostracized. Again, perhaps we have different experiences.
Ramanuja does not believe in jivanmukta (liberation-in-the-body), so a sanyasin is not aspiring for that. The great majority of sanyasins are unmarried. Some led monastaries, others even fought in wars.
Absolutely a community based thing. Also not outrageous. Are you South Indian? Read about the Child Marriage Act in the Madras Presidency, and the vehement opposition it received from some orthodox Brahmins…1920s.
Im speaking of educated peoples living in cities etc.. , I understand tradition is a function of time. But, unfortunately its a slowly varying function of time.. and it takes discussions like these, and views like mine to change them.
Religious reform is in dialectic with tradition all of the time. The Shankaracharya in the article I quoted is mad as heck that Hindu reformers are arguing for post-puberty marriages, but they won and he lost! Reform (thus far anyway) hasn’t killed arranged marriages. Whether it eventually does is anyone’s guess, but I seriously, seriously doubt it, nor do I think its necessary. The two types of marriage will co-exist.
Regards
Ha Ha! I’m curious, Red Snapper. Did your white girlfriend actually come up with that? The ‘halal’ bit, I mean. She’d have to be amazingly clued-in for that! 😀
How old are you, RS? Just wondering when that point is generally reached by parents.
Oh, they all tend to think in those generalised terms, you know, that we all have a swarthy uncle with a meat cleaver poised over our heads if we don’t do as our mothers say.
Just shy of the big treinta. But I have panicked parents because several of my cousins have miscegenated.
“Ramanuja does not believe in jivanmukta (liberation-in-the-body), so a sanyasin is not aspiring for that. The great majority of sanyasins are unmarried. Some led monastaries, others even fought in wars.”
Not sure what this has to do with marriage, but ok. Sanyasins by definition are unmarried, but those following the Visishtadvaita philosophy purported by Ramanuja were allowed to take sanyas even after marriage. The householder path.. as in fact Ramanuja was a householder himself.
“Reform (thus far anyway) hasn’t killed arranged marriages. Whether it eventually does is anyone’s guess, but I seriously, seriously doubt it, nor do I think its necessary. The two types of marriage will co-exist.”
Unfortunately you’re probably right, and people will still be utterly confused as to why their kids are screwed in the head, or maybe they think thats just the way things are and nothing could improve it. It’s sad, that such a dynamic culture with a rich history has just gotten this one thing abhorrently incorrect. But maybe RS is right, without it all the suffering that results from arranged marriages, and their hybrid variants, artists wouldn’t have anything to do?
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My mother hit that point when I turned 30. She decided I could now allow myself to meet men who smoke (I have asthma), hate animals (I have a pet I love and do not intend to get rid of) and already has kids!! And my mother isn’t a village idiot. I strongly believe she really is petrified that I’ve gone past my expiration date and will be dying a lonely miserable death.
Anyone know how the South Asian Islamic traditions have coped with the rise of individual choice/love marriages among the middle class?
I love a Russian boy. I am an indian girl who came to US in 9th grade of high school with her family. I am 23 now and finishing up college, I met the guy a year ago and since then we have grown a liking to each other. When I recently told my parents they lost it. My father says that he had brought me here to complete my education and have a career not to have ‘AFFAIRS’. I told him I thought I was also suppose to live life. He says he will not accept my boyfriend not now or in the future because he can see cultural and social problems that we will run into. He is okay with us being friends but nothing more. My father was unaware that I was raped by two of my uncles when I was a kid (6,7,8 years old). I had sweared I would never tell anyone and I hadn’t until I told my boyfriend 9 months after we were together. He accepted me for who I was and told me he will stick by me and that whatever happened in the past does not matter and that he wants to be with me. No matter what I don’t want what happened in the past to be a weakness and I don’t love him only because he knows more about me than most people, but because he understands how to calm me down when I’m mad (I’m stubborn), how to make me laugh and is willing to wait for me to have a career before we think about marriage. He has himself been through pretty rough times in life, like his father abandoning him and he was raised by his grandparents. I love him and I want to be with him, the feeling in mutual but my parents are dead against it. When I told my dad about what happened in the past he told me that I shouldn’t link two things. One, that I was hurt in the past and Two, that I am trying to be with a guy whose culture is different than ours. He put down 4 conditions in front of me that I should meet before he will accept my choice : 1. the guy should be as educated as I am. 2. the guy should be close to my age. 3. He should be same religion as ours , 4. He should be indian. He doesn’t consider what seems important to me, love and acceptance of one’s faults by their partner. I am in a dilemma.
Dear help,
I realize for all intents and purposes you would like to be with this man with the blessings of your parents but you are young and you’ve only been with him a year and you are still in school. You should truly concentrate on finishing your schooling and settling yourself. Not saying you should abondon the relationship but if you align your priorities a little differently your father might over time learn to respect you based on your choices. Right now he sees you as a child who can’t think for herself. Don’t try to fight the battle all at once. Give it some time. What are your expectations? That your father would let you have a relationship with him? Step back and think of the actual probability of this. Give it some time and a couple of years. Find your footing and your career as an adult first.
Note to self: Holy shit I just totally went aunty on a kid!!!!
I’m not sure what the fuss is about. He was obviously not comfortable in advocating a point of view that involves a different culture. I think his answer was honest – the woman seeking advice made a choice when she married the guy based on little else but shared backgrounds. She has two options – live with the choice or opt out of it. Yes – the couple can seek counseling and if his behaviour becomes dysfunctional or shows the slightest hint of violence, she should leave immediately.
I think this speaks of a broader issue not only in India, but in the U.S. as well. What do we do when we make bad choices? Do we spend our life in regret, or do we seek to correct them, no matter what the cultural, social, personal cost would be?
Dear help, your story is harrowing, and I’m sorry for all you’ve suffered. I think you’re best off talking to a family member or counsellor about these things, because it seems as if there are some deep issues that need healing. Unless there’s someone you can confide in with the details, someone who also knows you and knows your character, any advice you might get is going to be iffy. SM is not the right place to sort those issues out- the forum is too public, and you’ll probably get all kinds of advice, and it will be difficult to sort out what’s valuable from what’s not. Is there a young “cool” aunty in the family that you can trust? Is there an older cousin whose opinion you respect? Or even, if all else fails, a compassionate professor at school, perhaps one who’s an Indian woman? Find a confidant, and believe me that things won’t always be this difficult. All will be well.
Help,
Please get some counselling – there is probably free counselling/therapy for students at your college. Those who suffer abuse when young are at risk of making poor decisions throughout their lives because they have not been able to properly deal with the abuse.
Secondly – do not feel that you are alone. Most of us have had to go through these parental conflicts. Remain true to yourself and to your love. Don’t feel obliged to buckle under, no matter how much pressure your family applies. If they truly love you, over time they will come to accept the decisions you make. It does not sound like he is doing so, but please do not let your boyfriend pressure you either. If your love is made of strong stuff, it will endure and overcome these obstacles.
Anyone else get the feeling that “help” is a fake?
Forget that. Kumra le lo, kurma! Spicy hot kurma anyone?
Technophobicgeek,
South Asians are the largest non-white ethnic group in the UK and we’ve all received a fair amount of media coverage over the past decade, so generally English people are aware of these things. However, as Red Snapper mentioned, there is often some degree of confusion with regards to the various different desi communities. From the perspective of the majority population, the boundaries are often blurred together into one “homogeneous group”, so customs and attitudes which may be more prevalent in some desi communities than in others are inadvertantly ascribed to the other communities too, with the resulting stereotyping.
The South Asian Muslim community here has the highest profile in the media and in the public eye.
Technophobicgeek,
PS — Read this article from a mainstream British newspaper a few days ago to see how boundaries and customs between the various desi communities are often blurred together from the point of view of many English people. And yes it does mention arranged marriages, along with honour killings and various other issues.
Indeed. The person who posted as “help” shares an IP address with a semi-regular commenter from past threads who operates with a male handle. I am going to let the comment stand in order to give the benefit of the doubt, but the commenter in question is hereby warned that impersonation of this sort is malicious, as well as in poor taste. A future incident of this kind will result in banning.
Oh jeez if help was a fakie it’s very Sulekhaish of them to troll. The sole reason I love this place is because there are no such trolls here. That would piss me off.
JOAT, we are on the case. Thankfully this doesn’t happen too often. And, we love you back!