Globalization has made many things possible including the efficient exchange of all sorts of goods and services. Among these are ideas; scientists think nothing of collaborating across borders, and musicians can lay down tracks in one city and have them a genius producer someplace far away rearrange them overnight.
Some ideas don’t travel as well, however. What makes sense according to laws and customs in one place might be absurd or abhorrent somewhere else. Advice columnists — or as the British beautifully call them, agony aunts — have yet to globalize their business. But what if there’s demand? Today in Salon (thanks, Scott!), an Indian-in-India sista seeks to outsource her relationship counseling to Cary Tennis, the online mag’s advice-giver. And Tennis… almost punts, but not quite. Check it out. Here’s the woman’s situation:
… Arranged marriages have seen a resurgence in India and I suspect it is propelled by young people’s desire to shield themselves from heartbreak. I was one of those and I agreed to marry a doctor I met just once after I returned home from the States. I thought I was taking a very sane and levelheaded decision. He came from a good family and was well liked and respected in his hospital (all this info gathered through the extended family network that goes into operation for marital missions). He had no known addictions, was reasonably good-looking according to Indian standards (not my standards, I must point out, because I like muscular, clean-shaven men and he is neither). We came from similar backgrounds and our life goals seemed to match — raise kids, earn a lot of money and make our parents proud of us.
Three months into our marriage we had our first fight. It was nasty. We are still living apart.
Now I am not sure marrying him was such a great idea. He seems immature and his anger was shocking. Staying on in a marriage just because he is a doctor seems wrong now. I thought my decision would be right because it was dispassionate. But now I think the lack of passion should have been a warning sign. The fact that I wasn’t physically attracted to him should have been enough to decide against marrying him.
How do I know if I made a huge mistake? Divorce is a big deal here, especially in my religion. But I figure the sooner we break up the easier it will be. Then again, who am I kidding? I probably won’t muster up the courage to break up the marriage until he does something really horrible…
And here are excerpts from Tennis’s reply:
I do not know what it is like to be from India but I know what it is like to live with the choices I have made. … I do not know what it is like to be in an arranged marriage but I know that all marriages are in a sense arranged — by relatives, by the rain, by smiles and secret dances; by children whose arrival can no longer be postponed, by the intersection of ripening desires, by thirsty hope meeting cool water.
So you ask an American what to do. To do what an American would do would be disastrous, I fear. …
I would try to live within what you have already done. I would attempt to carry out the plans you had when you decided to marry: Have lots of children and make a lot of money. Absent one of the limited general grounds for divorce available to you under Indian divorce law … I would try to see this thing through. …
Most men are flawed; they have an ugly side. You probably do too. Within limits, this is intimacy.
Not all mistakes can be undone. Some mistakes are to be lived with. The undoing can be messier than the mistake.
Beyond that, I cannot say much. I do not know what it is like to be from India. I do not know what it is like to be in an arranged marriage. I only know what it is like to live with the choices I have made.
OK, so with that last paragraph Tennis basically pleads ignorance, which I suppose is fair enough. But then, why have spent the rest of the lengthy reply basically talking her out of challenging or ending her marriage? Why not have simply refused to take up the question, to pull this question from the pile?
Or perhaps Tennis is right, and “suck it up, kiddo” is the best advice for this woman’s situation?
I can’t help but feel that Tennis is treading too cautiously here, haunted by the idea that India is so much more conservative a society that “what an American would do” is not simply irrelevant, but actually the opposite of what an Indian should do.
I wonder (not a rhetorical question — I sincerely wonder) what Dan Savage would say if confronted with the same question. Would he tell her to DTMFA?
I think Tennis is assuming India is come backwards place where women are forced to wear burkhas and have to do whatever their husbands say, no matter how evil they are.
I don’t know…I’ve been reading him forever and Cary is usually rather sensitive, so I wouldn’t dismiss him just yet. The only bit of his advice to this particular LW that inspired an eyebrow-raise was the “have kids” part, but I have my own take on this entire saga that I was going to post, so I’ll save it for later (Don’t run away and let me down).
Tennis’ ass must hurt from sitting on that fence. Though I suppose after the Jenny Jones’ show killing, several years ago, all of these advice givers/meddlers/schadenfreude emcees are just trying to cover themselves and not actually give off solid opinions.
I think Tennis is assuming India is come backwards place where women are forced to wear burkhas
How do you know that the woman is not being forced to wear a Burqa? Have you been to Old Delhi? I have seen more Burkhas there than anywhere else.
How do you know that the woman is not being forced to wear a Burqa? Have you been to Old Delhi? I have seen more Burkhas there than anywhere else.
Sure, I’ve been. good point. but what I meant to say that Tennis sounded like “I dont know how to deal with these $avages b@ckwards traditions”. probably a bad example…
if she wasn’t attracted to him still…they shouldn’t be together. but perhaps some people define ‘marriage’ differently, i don’t know.
Yes, I read Cary Tennis regularly too. This is not his usual excellent stuff. He’s going to hear from me. How’s this image going to change if we don’t tell people like him what it’s really like. This woman did grad school in the US, for God’s sake! “Have children” is the only option ?!
It’s sad that this kind of misplaced ‘cultural understanding’ comes much more from the left than the right.
Al MFD,
Seeing a lot of Burkhas != those women being forced to wear them. In some countries, this is forced by law – something I’m sure we all know.
The young lady is an idiot. Arranged marriage is fine, but she went in with the completely wrong idea of what marriage is about. She’s still got the wrong idea. “Staying on in the marriage because he’s a doctor seems wrong now.” Seems, lady?
But that doesn’t excuse Cary Tennis’s atrocious advice. For all the pleading, the thing stinks of woman-hatery to me. “Suck it up, all men have an ugly side.” Wha?? Excuse me, I thought this was 2006.
From the little they’ve revealed of the situation, it looks like two people got together for all the wrong reasons, and the thing exploded on take-off. It’s sad but it happens. Tennis is telling her to be stoic until she has an “encounter” with a kitchen stove? The sister better bail ASAP, else she’s in for a lifetime of pain…
Damn Mr. Kobayashi, on point. Could you be the great brown Dan Savage? DTMFA (goes for both of them)!
I have often admired Tennis’s advice and I far prefer his approach to that of most every other advice guru (say Dr. Phil, or the Dear Abby / Ann Landers types). He’s a pretty astute, self aware dude. He’s also a recovering alcoholic, and thus perhaps more aware of the inherent vulnerability and complexity of being human. Tennis is definitely not an ign’ant Amerikun, so Puliogre, check out his archives before you kick him to the curb, ya heard? 😉
And for what it’s worth, living in India has made it clear to me that whether or not burka’s are involved, there’s a hell of a lot of Indian women who DO have to do whatever their husbands (or in laws, or parents) say, no matter how evil they are…
At the opposite end of the spectrum from Cary Tennis, there’s Amy Sedaris’s column in The Believer. Astoundingly hilarious and worth checking out!
My two paisa, ~K
I’ll be whomever you want me to be, sister. Respect.
In some countries, this is forced by law
Which countries would that be?
kavita says
thanks for that detail kavita. I wasnt aware of that but it makes sense to me, because I totally felt tennis displayed tremendous sensitivity and maturity in his response. that only comes from someone who’s been beaten down a couple of times and knows not to see things as black and white.
it is nice to see opinion pieces that arent a wire brush on a second degree burn.
Have you been to Old Delhi? I have seen more Burkhas there than anywhere else.
ALM,
What percentage?
Old Delhi is probably the most densely populated place on earth. You are going to see hell of a lot of everything there – be it burkhas, salwar kameez, sarees, low rise jeans. I can understand the percentage will increase in the area around Chandini Chowk.
I think the woman in the post above is knocking the wrong door for advise (if she is serious about it). Why not some Indian Aunt Agony from Femina or real professional based there. She is India, has spent 90% of life in India, her marital discord is in India – she seeks from an American. It does not make sense.
Aha, but it does make sense if she specifically wanted to get an answer telling her it’s ok to divorce him. My sense is that she was trying to stack the deck, and Tennis was refusing to play along.
(I do think they should divorce, though.)
just to be clear on the above, i wasnt advocating the couple sustain an abusive relationship – but i dont think there was enough data on that – i felt tennis pleaded ignorance because he felt he didnt know all the facts and based on common knowledge of indian relationships (less inclined to drive thru commitments) I take it that he was prudent in framing a response – rather than advocate a “bail out now, now!!” response and risk hurting a lot of people if the woman went thru.
Marrying someone without the physical attraction will always lead to nasty problems. The initial physical attraction overcomes the inevitable negative things that everybody doesn’t show before marriage. By the time they come out of the physical attraction, it is kids time. Then they don’t even have time to think about divorce :).
Think of the doctor guy, he thought he was marrying is girl who likes and is attracted to him but what he got was a passionless (atleast for him) woman. How much do you think would have contributed that to the situation that they have right now? We don’t know what the fight was and may be the girl isn’t blameless either.
All the judging of the poor guy on this thread and giving a free pass to the girl is simply sad. Tennis’s advise is sound for what facts he knows. Here the vitim seems to be guy (for what facts we know) because unknowingly he entered into a passionless marriage atleast from the other side.
Tennis was refusing to play along.
Yes, I read his reply. He gave a very good reply.
I agree she wanted to stack the deck, and seeking an American is out of place in this context.
Grrr.
It’s even more irritating on a second reading.
This is bollocks!!
hmm… and why not, given thatnot enough is known about the situation. it isnt just an east-west thing. on the radio the other day was a discussion on a therapist lamenting the abdication of responsibility by family in maintaining relationships. her feel was that there are folks who come out of the woodworks to pick sides and support a person in court through divorce proceedings – “i am here for you” – but are out of the equation through all the tribulations leading up to the breakdown.
it is scary though that someone would approach an internet columnist for marital advice rather than go to a counsellor.
They should divorce quickly. He can tell the world the she turned out to be a lesbian; and she can tell the world that he was impotent. In India, the good doctor will have little difficulty taking another wife. The arranged market is effectively closed to her, but she may use her wiles to capture another man, more sexy to her – and mature.
I do agree with Prasad that sexual attraction will forgive many things in the early stages of marriages, and when that wears off that you look to money and children and what have you.
My aunts (Indians), when they lived in Saudi Arabia were terrified to go out because the police could catch them for minor violations such as showing a wrist or an ankle. One of them was warned by the cop that if this ever happened again, her feet would be cut off.
Think also of Afghanistan under the Taliban (or today in some sections where Karzai’s rule does not not apply). Some of the oppression women face there, is, in effect ‘law’ because there is court of law to protect them if they choose not wear the chador.
Women in India are not forced to wear the burka.
Sorry, I meant “terrified to go out without being correctly dressed”. They did go out.
“Absent one of the limited general grounds for divorce available to you under Indian divorce law Â… I would try to see this thing through.” Is he assuming that this woman doesn’t really have legal options, that it might get too messy? I disagree. Two of my cousins got divorces after realizing that their suitable arranged boys were really schmucks, I don’t think there were huge legal problems.
I’m with “divorce him now” because it’s clearly not just early hiccups in the marriage if they are living apart and she can only come up with “he’s a doctor” as a reason to stay with him. If you’re thinking about divorce in spite of the social and self-imposed desi pressures to “make things work,” things must be pretty bad. I don’t agree that the arranged marriage route is now closed to her, especially if she doesn’t go and get pregnant, people are more open to second marriages these days, though she’s likely to find a man with a kid himself who wants a mother for the child.
Hmmm
A. It really bothers me that there are two cultural values at play here. I don’t like it. I think you have to be on the inside to understand it sometimes though all it does is make you more fucked up.
B. I wish Tennis would quit scampering all over the fence and just state his mind. I wish he’d simply have said “either live with the consequences since you ain’t gonna do shit about it according to your own admission” or “move and and find something more suitable for your emotional well being.”
I also wish he’d tell her that most marriages have a tough time in the first year and one big fight is not a big freaking deal and to work on the communication. What made her deem he’s immature? Are they not having sex? Is she just hung up on the physical thing? I’m not getting enough information.
I think it was stupid of him to pick this letter because it’s lame, has holes and really doesn’t give substantial information on what exactly the fight was about and what is deemed immature for her to doubt her marriage. She married him for his money, at that point he must have looked attractive to her. I have scores of cousins who’s sole reason for marrying their husbands were “He was cute and mom and dad liked him.”
Hate to burst your bubble but there are 1000s of such marriages that take place in India every single day. Let get real and stop trying to be so western in approaching this. Just because you don’t understand it, don’t knock it. Traditional marriage in India has never been about physical attraction or love it was always a calculated risk.
These seem like major red flags to me:
“But now I think the lack of passion should have been a warning sign. The fact that I wasnÂ’t physically attracted to him should have been enough to decide against marrying him.”
“Staying on in a marriage just because he is a doctor seems wrong now.”
Seems to me like she may have married the guy because he’s a doc, and their first major fight made her realize there was probably never a solid foundation there in the first place. The way she mentions money, doctor-status, and lack of physical attraction all point to someone who’s just coming to terms with her own bad choices.
I think this is larger than the obvious. While no one may hold a gun to wear a burkha in a family; the mental and emotional pressure to do so is so intense that a woman may be left with no option than to conform. There are conservative families that won’t allow their new DILs to wear anything other than a sari. Yeah she can refuse but in a traditonal setting does she really have the option to do so?
We are aruging on semantics but just wanted to point out the flaw in thinking a woman always has the choice to do something just because the law doesn’t stop her from having a choice.
interesting that opinion here so far are all over the place. i like that. by the way, i only posted excerpts; they capture the situation fairly but the one graf i omitted completely was her opening statement, in which she says that she had two prior serious relationships, both prior to her two years in the u.s., that crashed and burned for various reasons. read for yourself. i don’t know if that changes anything.
Yo, my bubble? What have you said that I disagree with?
Besides, this line you draw between “western” and “traditional marriage” does not exist. Many people, perhaps even most people, our poor fool included, are in a hybrid state, driven on by mixed notions.
When I suggest that she’s gone into the marriage with the wrong idea, do you think I’m saying she should, instead, “marry for love,” or that she should find a man with a cute behind? Or am I saying she should find a better arranged marriage? Or that she should divorce and give up the idea of marrying for a while? Or find herself a girlfriend? Or a sugardaddy?
Hmm.
You see, there are all sorts of reason for marrying. This lady’s, as far as I can see, were distinctly underheated. It’s obvious that she’s seriously immature, a quality which serves her ill in a “western” marriage or a “traditional” one.
I understand at times you can’t find your picture perfect person, but being attracted to the other person is critical. Arranged or not.
When meeting someone, understandably it is hard to gage things such as anger. But maturing can be ascertained to a certain degree by asking the right questions and feeling out the responses. A doctor, lawyer, engineer, or a farmer has no bearing on maturity. Maybe education, but not emotional strength and maturity.
Above all, a dispassionate decision is NOT good period. You have to feel it’s ‘right’ in your gut and emotions. Walking down the assembly line expecting things will just fall in place if your heart really isn’t in it won’t work. There is a difference between cold feet and fear of commitment vs. a dispassionate decision.
Maybe this lady is the one who was immature with all the wrong expections and entered a situation where she hadn’t got her own bearings straight. Know thy self first and be honest with what yourself before deluding yourself. It happens to us all, but this is not a problem with arranged marriages, but one where you’re simply making a decision by lying to yourself. People make similar decisions in all relationships, not just arranged marriages.
Wrong idea. What is worse? Living a half fulfilling depressed life because society thinks divorce is worse than continuing on with an undesriable marriage, or simply moving on with life by getting divorced. In either case, one has to take control and accept the responsibility/consequences of the decision. If you choose to stay in the marriage then do everything you can by employing the right strategies to make it work. If you don’t want the marriage, yet stay in it because the world will give you shit, well you’ve made your own bed of misery then. Make a commitment – try making it work or get out. Don’t half ass it.
Damnit now you tell us!!! Grrrr
how does it change your view, JOAT?
Interesting that people are discussing “western” vs. “traditional” marriage expectations, because in the last several years I’ve observed a sort of fusion of the two among many women I know back home (and some desis who are now in the States). The new ideal seems to be that mommy and daddy will introduce you to the Suitable Banker Boy from the Good Family who works for a MNC and makes lots of $, who will also be your Mills and Boon hero, a romantic, Shahrukh-Khan-in-all-those-films-starting with-a-K sort of chap, “modern”-yet-sweet-and-respectful-to elders.
I respectfully submit that this sets people up to not be as pragmatic and willing to suck up unexpected stuff as they used to in the Real Arranged Marriage days, and also stops people from going out there and dating and taking risks to find the person they really want to be with (including the risk that they won’t find someone at all).
GujuDude makes some excellent points in post #30 and I agree with him completely.
The bottom line here is whether staying in the marriage will have a more corrosive effect on the woman’s life — at least internally, with regards to the long-term impact on her psyche, her personality in general, and her psychological/emotional wellbeing — than the feared ramifications if she leaves (social/familial fallout etc).
Only she can really make this decision. She’ll have to be an adult and figure this out herself, and take responsibility for the consequences, for better or for worse.
It would make me weight the blame more on the woman who seems to have entered the marriage with more superficial reaasons having experienced a relationship(s) with someone of her choice.
It would make me blame someone less if she were to have entered this marriage having zero experience with relationships and being raised in an environment that has always taught her to do things this way.
I don’t want to even accidentally veer into the precedent set by the “on-line evisceration of Toral Mehta/Kaavya*”, so I’ll say this hesitantly and briefly:
Basing a decision to spend the rest of your life with a person on one single meeting does not sound even remotely like a “sane and level headed decision” in my opinion.
Marrying him in the first place just because he was a doctor was a huge mistake. It’s also interesting that, in her paragraph explaining her original reasons for deciding to marry him, she doesn’t mention mutual chemistry, what she likes about his personality, their shared interests (apart from wanting to make money etc), the nice way he treats her etc. All huge warning signs. Unfortunately, also common things which are not given great weight in the “traditional” Indian viewpoint on such matters, especially with regards to the arranged marriage route.
Also good point by JoaT in #35 — I was thinking exactly the same thing.
*I’m not saying by any means that this is what other commenters are doing here; I just wantd to pre-empt any misunderstanding of my own views.
JaneOfAllTrades,
I do appreciate the nature of societal and family pressure. It can be tremendous. However, I was seconding what Puliogre said and clarified later. I felt that Al Mujahid was nitpicking Puliogre’s comment since the point was “what attitude is Cary taking here?”. I too felt that undertone in Cary Tennis’s statements.
This is a case of each of us taking the most extreme view of what everyone else is saying. So, unless you are saying that despite the law in India not forcing anyone to wear a Burqa, the situation is identical to Saudi anyway (and I’m sure you’re not saying that), I think we all understand each other quite well.
Calculated with an abacus, maybe.
This woman seems rather confused to me. If she wasn’t attracted to the guy, and didn’t think that was important, then why on earth is she bemoaning the lack of passion, deep respect and understanding at the end of her letter?
Did she think relationships are crafted out of thin air? One fight, in which he seems immature and his anger seems shocking, and she is looking for a divorce? And nowhere does she mention what she brought to the marriage.
I find myself feeling sorry for her husband. I bet he didn’t know that he was marrying a woman with so little respect for the institution of marriage [not just her lack of interest in saving this one, but also her lack of regret at trying to break someone else’s marriage a few years ago].
As for the advice given, I fail to see why that is worthy of criticism. He doesn’t tell her to suck up physical or emotional abuse, and says she should try to see if she can make it work. What is so wrong with that?
And I also agree with the commentors who think that she was trying to find someone who’d tell her to go for a divorce – why can’t she make up her own mind, for god’s sake? Or talk to a family member? Or a therapist? Or a marriage counsellor? The woman in question sounds like someone who doesn’t want to take any responsibility – she went along with the marriage because she wanted to save herself heartache and didn’t see anything terribly wrong with the guy. But then she can’t be arsed to try and make it work, and can’t even summon up the guts to say so, or act on it.
People seem rather upset by the fact that he says that all men have an ugly side. Why? That’s true for all humans, men and women. And as for his advice to have kids, isn’t he just telling her to do what she said she planned to do? What is wrong with his advice if nothing was wrong with her plans?
I don’t know if this is something I’m just imagining. But it seems implied often that the pressure of arrange marriage is something that is applied on women in India. But from what I know, parents pressure their sons just as much for arranged marriage.
Lack of sexual freedom and judgement of non-marital sex is, of course, worse for women than men (as it is to varying degrees in most parts of the world. For example, “stud” vs. “slut”).
I’m with you.
.
It possibly stems from general belief that women are the ones that carry the societal mores and culture and hence carry more weight in ethical issues.
I don’t know this woman or her husband, and I’m not trying to be judgemental– hey, I’m trying– especially not knowing anything of what their fight was actually about. But it seems to me if one fight is all it takes for either party to question the foundation of their marriage, they didn’t do enough communicating in the first place. Where are the coping skills if they separated after one argument? Unless he gored her cat with a vacuum attachment, I don’t know what would be so severe that moving out was necessary…
Oh my god he yelled and disagreed with me!
it’s not the end of the world. Marriage definitely isn’t defined by how easy you have it– it’s defined by the adversity that you survive, together. Even if it’s at each other’s hand, sometimes 😉
It’s all very dependent on how old she is as well, if she’s young, and felt as if she compromised in going with him in the first place, all it might take is a single fight to spark the separation. Also, I’d say, if she’s on the younger side (when I mean young, I don’t mean necessarily 21 or 22), perhaps she feels there’s still time to venture and meet that perfect muscular, clean shaven guy.
Marriage definitely isn’t defined by how easy you have it– it’s defined by the adversity that you survive, together. Even if it’s at each other’s hand, sometimes 😉
Very good point, desidancer. marriage – even for the most self-assured, mature and compatible couple – can be difficult. And once you understand and accept that, things become much, much easier.
The guy’s letter which never got printed:
Dear Tennis,
I need some advice as to whether I should stick it out with a woman I married. Normally I wouldn’t write to you since I am in India and you’re not, but this chick I am with lived over there for a while and I thought you could help.
I had an arranged marriage with this Indian girl who just returned from spending a few months in the US. When I met her, she was in shape and pretty. She wanted to keep working and was highly motivated. I married her too quickly. A few months into it, I realized that she wasn’t quite the person I thought she was. She started talking about quiting her job and saying that since I was a doctor, I made enough money for both of us and that she didn’t need to work anymore. Of course, she wanted me to work more. Also, she started buying lots of stuff. I mean lots. She stopped working out and ate all the time; the physical attraction that I first had was going down the drain. Then one night she told me that while in the US she blew two white guys. I realize that isn’t a big deal for you in the US, but my family “sold” me on her saying that she was a good girl from a respectable family. To top that, she then told me that she likes muscular guys with European-like clean shaven faces. She also said the only reason she married me was because I was a doctor, that her family pushed her into it, that I was too skinny for her, and that she didn’t like any of my personal qualities. It was late at night and I was exhausted when I heard all of this, and to make a long story short, I lost my cool. I told her to get a f**ing job, start working out, go to medical school herself if she liked doctors so much, and that she was hardly the person my family pumped her up to be. She then stormed out and went to live with her parents.
Should I cut my losses and start over?
-Dude
sa, u da man!
different values are one thing, asking someone else to basically determine them for you is another. i think that’s the problem. you can’t tell someone whether looks or money should matter or not at the end of the day, that’s their deal. you can advise in the framework of the premises they give. being an adult is establishing your own personal premises.
being an adult is establishing your own personal premises
check that. i forget that most people are religious. asking other people to dictate values and decisions probably is pretty normal for this woman.
Tennis does mention it.
I think his reply is quite .. er.. comprehensive. He does straddle the fence a bit, but it seems more a diplomatic choice. She reall doesn’t give much information at all, what she does say is very damning. He doesn’t tell her to suck it up.
As for whether he should have replied to this letter, maybe he’s trying to explore new markets! 😉
I don’t think this was one of Cary’s better responses. But I don’t really see any reason to get on a high horse either. If the letter writer had been mexican for instance do you think we would be this worried? Speaking for myself I would be concerned as a human being but perhaps not agitated to this extent. Some version of this discussion would happen on mexicanmutiny perhaps. So we aren’t purely altruistic. I am not saying anybody is but lets admit we’re not.
Also the how-dare-americans-wash-their-hand-off-us attitude wears a little thin because the letter writer cast her problem in an Indian socio-cultural context not Cary. She chooses not to be the free-thinking liberal that most of the comments here assume her to be