The chaos in Lebanon has left a large number of South Asians stranded or endangered. Today four Indian Navy ships entered Beirut harbor to begin evacuating nationals to Cyprus:
Over 1,000 Indians assembled at the jetty as Israeli operations against Hezbollah militia intensified in Lebanon.
The warships — INS Mumbai, INS Betwa, INS Brahmaputra and auxiliary tanker INS Shakti — anchored overnight off the Lebanese coast, moved into the port to pull out the anxious Indian nationals and shift them to camps in Larnaca in Cyprus, Navy sources said.
There are about 12,000 Indians in Lebanon, according to press reports. And while India has the capability to mount its own evacuation, other countries with large numbers of nationals in Lebanon are in a more difficult position. The International Organization of Migration (IOM) has a team in Lebanon on behalf of the governments of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Moldova and Ghana. There are at least 10,000 Bangladeshis in Lebanon, and up to 40,000 Filipinos.
But the case that stands out is Sri Lanka, with an estimated 93,000 nationals in Lebanon of whom 86,000 are women employed as domestic labor. According to a recent article in Middle East Report, Sri Lankan domestic workers have become ubiquitous in Lebanon. You wonÂ’t be surprised to learn that the employment process is shady and the workers often mistreated:
Each year, over 10,000 female Sri Lankans arrive in Lebanon with the intention of working hard to make better lives for themselves and their families. Most of them go to work cleaning, cooking and caring for children—jobs that Lebanese are generally not willing to take though the services are in high demand. Along with Filipinas, Bangladeshis and other Asian and African women, Sri Lankans have become an integral part of the Lebanese home and the Lebanese economy in the post-war era. In most cases, these women earn more than they could in their home country, but it is estimated by the Migrant Services Center, one of the largest NGOs in Sri Lanka serving domestic migrants, that 40 percent of them return to Sri Lanka no better off than they were when they left. Some are struggling to repay large loans taken out for migration expenses and the families of others mismanaged their remittances, but many simply had their wages withheld. It is estimated that 20 percent of the 80,000 Sri Lankan migrant workers living in Lebanon experience some form of maltreatment, ranging from non-payment of wages to verbal, physical and sexual abuse.
Â… According to David Soysa of the Migrant Services Center, hiring agencies direct the least skilled and least educated women to Lebanon, because that destination is perceived to have the highest rates of worker abuse. SFBLE statistics do show slightly higher rates of reported maltreatment in Lebanon than elsewhere.
So far, the Sri Lankan government has been trying to move its nationals from the most endangered areas to other parts of Lebanon:
The embassy was hiring buses to transport those who needed help. The embassy was trying to evacuate about 1500 endangered Sri Lankans from an area called Hyda which was directly on the onslaught of the bombing. There were many problems the embassy was facing to move these people out. Not many drivers were willing to take their vehicles on hire to this area. The other problem was roads and bridges have been destroyed by the Israeli bombing in the area.
A Sinhalese nun called Sister Leela who has been caring for Sri Lankan evacuees interviewed by the BBCÂ’s Sandeshaya said yesterday the Sri Lankan Embassy informed her that another bus load of 100 will be arriving at her center for safety.
In the meantime, it appears that the casualties have begun:
Sri Lankan woman housemaid in Lebanon is feared dead due to the Israeli aerial bombing in Lebanon, Sri Lankan Foreign Ministry said.
Ministry spokeswoman Himali Arunathilake said that “We have received information that a female worker is among the dead in northern Lebanon and we are now trying to verify those reports.”
Given the number of people involved, the conditions on the ground, the fact that many workers don’t have papers, and the expected resistance of employers to allow their domestics to leave, it’s likely that more than a few young Sri Lankan women will become “collateral damage” of the Israel-Hezbollah war.
Congratulations, you just defeated your own argument
Did I? Or once again you just didn’t get it? Very self-congratulatory indeed!
Please describe for all of us how European Jews have “historical claim” to the land, instead of bludgeoning us with sensationalistic tales and fact-less racist conjecture.
By that rationale any resistance to colonization aside from “working hard” and “peacefully” bringing “the world’s attention to their plight”. If you actually read up on your facts, you would realize that there has never been any point in history where there was a perfectly peaceful and servile process of resisting dispossession from land. Including our own Freedom Struggle. Describe to me these peoples you speak of, please.
Yet another lie. The “start” came when Palestinians were kicked off their own land. Kesh’s wonderful example of Hebron ’29 ignores scores of massacres of Palestinians at Zionist hands throughout the colonization of Palestine. Deir Yassin springs to mind as do countless other examples of Zionist terrorism. The conflict has always been bloody and violent; however it has been clear from the beginning that the economic and military upper hand has belonged to the Zionists. Just look at the death tolls, for God’s sake! Furthermore, the world has barely slapped Israel on the wrist. There’s a consistent claim of Israel’s persecution by the world. One-third of US foreign aid goes to Israel, and the European finger-waggers have always caved to whatever the US wants with regards to the region. Ineffectual UN statements aside, the perception that Israel is frowned upon by the world is misleading.
I can’t really address your ridiculous argument about Israeli Arabs not being second-class citizens. To make a statement like “Arabs in Israel are as much second class as are Blacks in America or Muslims in India” shows how little you actually know about the world. Examine, if you will, the number of Blacks and Palestinians in American and Israeli prisons, and learn about the ways in which incarceration is unfairly meted out to both populations. Unless you continue your racist characterization of Palestinians as savage terrorists, your argument doesn’t hold much water.
The fact that the Israeli Arabs have an illusion of democratic representation does not change the fact that they are second-class citizens. You seem to have ignored the actual article and instead focused on the petty and ineffective rights that they have been so graciously granted by the Israeli government. Instead of arguing with anecdotes please cite for me systematic proof of the following: 1) European Jewish claim to the land; 2) Historical roots of why there is violence in the region (did the Palestinians really “start it”?); 3) How, aside from superficial representation and nominally “better” economic status than the rest of the Arab world (by which rationale you could also argue that African Americans have better economic status than Africans in Africa – it’s relative), are Israeli Arabs not second class citizens?; 4) How anyone in their right mind should morally leave quietly and “work hard” when their land and livelihood is stolen? Is that what you would do? Is that what we did prior to 1947?; and 5) How varying levels of oppression experienced by Jews in non-Palestinian empires and nations justifys Palestinians “giving up” their land?
Israeli actions in Lebanon are a clear violation of settled International Law. Hizbullah ambushed Israeli SOLDIERS on Lebanese side of the border. Israel is still occupying Sheebaa farms and has also detained over a THOUSAND Hizbullah members in Israeli jails for years now with no recourse or chance of getting out. So Hizbullah attacks soldiers to do a prisoner swap. Whats so outrageous about that?
And how does Israel respond to the attack on its SOLDIERS on Lebanese side for exchange of Hizbullah members in ISRAELI jails? Its response is to lauch a massive war on Lebanese civilians. In the first 5 days of war, Israelis killed 245 civilians and 5 members of Hizbullah.
I think its laughable that the Democrats are now siding with Israel and collectively bowing before the IDF and rallying/cheering the assault on Lebanese civilians.
Imagine if the US military were to bomb entire residential buildings, bomb supply trucks carrying food and water, bomb bridges, roads, power plants, water supplies in the Sunni triangle to avenge the regular kidnapping and mutilation of US soldiers at the hands of Sunni insurgents. The democrats would lose their minds shouting for the impeachment of Bush. Imagine if Bush then says that this collective punishment is to turn the Sunni population against the Sunni insurgents or to force the powerful Sunni tribal leaders to rein in the Sunni insurgents. Imagine if Rumsfeld says that no place in Iraq is safe or that he going to turn back the clock by 20 years in the Sunni triangle. Imagine if the US gives 24 hours to the Sunnis to leave the Sunni triangle. Does anybody seriously believe that the Democrats and the American Left will put up with that? Then why is Israel being given a pass? Why is Nancy Pelosi supporting House resolutions lauding Israel? Of course the most contemptous liberals are the liberal Jews like Dershowitz . The man is so vile that if he held similar views on any country but Israel, he would be lucky to teach at Cooley Law.
Of course the American Right is excited about a wider war. At least the right is consistent in its wantonness and general moral depravity.
Remember Arafat wallking away after being offered 95% of what he wanted?
And you believe everything Dennis Ross tells us? Why dont you wake up and stop talking in 7 second Fox News sound bites. Arafat was being offered: (1) 95% of 55% of West Bank. Israel then would have incorporated all big Israeli settlements connected through highways controlled by Israel which would have snaked around Palestinian territory. Even the 55% of West Bank minus the settlements was not contiguous. So Palestinians would have got around 52% of the current West Bank and the land would be split up into dozens of enclaves. (2) Giving up East Jerusalem completely which is considered occupied territory by the UN and the US State Department and most people in the World except for unhinged Zionists and Evangelicans waiting for baby Jesus to come back. (3) The right to return would be completely given up and no compensation would have been given to the refugees living around the world with the UN issued travel documents as sole evidence of their existence and humanity. (4) The Israelis would have retained control over the Palestinian airspace, borders, military and foreign trade.
If you actually read up on your facts, you would realize that there has never been any point in history where there was a perfectly peaceful and servile process of resisting dispossession from land
You almost made a good point there but that’s not how a smart person would interpret my argument. I’d have indulged myself in this debate a little longer had I not come across these gems: economic and military upper hand has belonged to the Zionists.One-third of US foreign aid goes to Israel,
Yes the economic and military upper hand has belonged to the Zionists who have earned every damn bit of it. Just as they have bought every damn bit of influence in US Congress. Just as Indian Americans have lately begun to emulate them successfully. No apologies for any of that. You have a problem with that? Yes one third of US aid goes to Israel. Jews disproportionately contribute to the GDP of USA. Israel is the only reliable and democratic ally of the US in all of Middle East. Just look at the death tolls, for God’s sake! & the number of Blacks in American prison
Now you are talking. If Israel had wantonly killed the Palestinians the death tolls would have been waaaaaaay higher and if the Arabs had Israel’s weapons, there simply wouldn’t have been an Israel anymore. Blacks commit crimes out of proportion to their numbers. There is injustice but it’s the exception rather than the rule as you make it out to be.
So what’s coming next? Bush planned Katrina as well as the Shia-Sunni rift. But why did you not spit the above logic before? It’d have saved me a lot of time.
Yes one third of US aid goes to Israel. Jews disproportionately contribute to the GDP of USA.
Is this a serious argument? The Catholics contribute way more to the GDP of the US. So should the Vatican get more aid than Israel? Your logic would actually be offensive to most patriotic Jews.
Well, THAT’S a classy debating move — ridicule your adversaries rather than actually engaging what they have to say. I could easily do the same with you, given how ill-informed some of your statements are. And the issue is not outside of the blog’s scope insofar as AK’s initial query concerned Indian foreign policy in West Asia — a part of the world with which India historically has been reasonably engaged over the years.
Um, quite apart from Yeti’s correct observation that you undermine your own point with the second half of this comment, second class citizenship involves a comparison between citizens within the same society, not between individuals who are citizens of different societies altogether. Would you have argued — whether now or at the height of Jim Crow segregation — that African Americans are not second class citizens because they are better off than poor blacks in Burkina Faso or Liberia? As framed, the claim you assert doesn’t really make any sense.
Yes, that kind of is the crux of the dilemma — it’s for God’s sake, not humanity’s. If you can’t extend full and complete equality to all citizens without regard to religion, it becomes rather difficult to avoid rendering large sections of your population second-class citizens. There’s no “right of return” for non-Jews, for example, regardless of their ties to the Israel or the occupied territories. And there are many other deep inequalities between Jewish Israelis and Palestinian Israelis.
Yeah, that would be a second-class party with second-class status in the Knesset. The Israeli government has systematically sought to undermine that party’s ability to function, most notably by indicting its leader, Azmi Bishara, for purely speech and associational activities, and then banning the party from participating in the 2003 elections. Yes, the Israeli Supreme Court eventually stepped in, but in a context of full equality and inclusion, it never would have gotten to that point in the first place.
Even if it’s “war,” there’s certainly no justification for targeting civilians at all — much less on this scale. Much of what Israel is doing violates international humanitarian and human rights law — and that’s not holding Israel to a standard any higher than that to which we held Slobodan Milosevic. (Or at least to which we eventually held him.) It’s not even holding Israel to a higher standard than that to which we should hold Hezbollah or anyone else when they target civilians.
It is, concededly, a higher standard than that to which Ariel Sharon was held to account when they massacred civilians and refugees in Lebanon during the 1980s.
Incidentally, I don’t know how widely noted this has been, but the casualty rate in Iraq has skyrocketed in the last week or so as the number of attacks has increased. There is a strategic dimension which nobody seems to be paying attention to here — disproportionate responses and gross violations of human rights will only inflame people who wish to do harm and only serves to give groups like Hezbollah greater credibility and support. That’s decidedly not in the long-term security interest of either India or the United States, and if we don’t wake up to that fact we may eventually all pay for it.
(and Jilted_Manhood, with your last comment about GDP contributions, I think you’ve finally lost it. might want to call it a night and start again tomorrow.)
Is this a serious argument? The Catholics contribute way more to the GDP of the US. So should the Vatican get more aid than Israel? Your logic would actually be offensive to most patriotic Jews
Al, does the Vatican share Israel’s predicament in any small way? The tenuous existence of Israel surrounded by predator regimes necessitates the most aid. And yes America is a capitalist society and that’s how it works. What’s so offensive?Besides Israel is a responsible, democratic country with a freedom of press and rule of law. It doesn’t abuse its American largess.
Please describe for all of us how European Jews have “historical claim” to the land, instead of bludgeoning us with sensationalistic tales and fact-less racist conjecture.
Do Americans have a historical claim to this land? And its not just the Native Americans. I read that over 50% of Mexicans think that the Southwestern United States belongs to them. Slipperry slope there…
Deir Yassin is a black spot on Israel’s history, but who started this war ? Palestinian clerics who were afraid of the growing Jewish influence in the region.
Zionist terrorism ? Don’t make me laugh, Like i stated before Israel’s actions are in self defense, to quote jilted_manhood, Israel is but just a dot in the middle east, European jews escape Hitler’s spree to be confronted with Izz ad-Din al-Qassam’s rhetoric. Unfortunately the Palestinians were brought under this animal’s infulence when so many of them existed peacefully with the jews.
Did the world even bat an eyelid when the Israeli atheletes were murdered in Munich ? Requests to fly the Olympic flag at half mast were met with hostility by the arab nations, Many of them supported the killing of civilans by Black September. Pulling out Israeli troops from Gaza was in Olmert’s agenda, who would not regard this as a step towards peace ? and of course Hamas had to go and spoil things and Hezbollah joined the club.
Peace is like a disease to Hamas and Hezbollah, they do not want Israel to exist. If Israel wasn’t strong and if Mossad wasn’t feared you think Israel would have even existed ? Of course not, You can only push a nation and its people so much, before they resort to tactics like the ones they employed in Operations Wrath of God, Spring of Youth and Entebbe. Carlos the Jackal worked for the PLO and Idi Amin sheltered and supported them. These exemplary men of character wanted the Jewish state gone even though they had no connections to the conflict, the only thing they had in common was they did not mind killing innocent civilians.
Hasn’t Israel warned civilians of imminent bombardment ? Regardless of what you think, Israel is a nation with a responsibility towards its citizens and its commited to achieving that by any means necessary. Saudi Arabia condemned Hezbollah, and this is a nation whose former ruler never smiled again when it learned that Israel won the six-day war. Hezbollah has destroyed peace in the region.
Looks like Bashir Assad will never learn from his Father’s mistakes. His Father followed the same path only to be turned against by the same terrorists he supported which led him to conduct operations which earned him the nickname the ‘Butcher of Hama’ and Anwar Sadat learned the mistake of supporting terrorists also.
Hezbollah,Hamas,Al-Qaeda, Lakshar-E-Toiba, Abu Sayaf are a plague upon Humanity that must be exterminated by the nations that are threatened by them. Once these groups and their members are vainly knocking on the pearly gates to meet their promised virgins will the world ever make some steps to achieving peace.
Jilted_Manhood,
You’ve made some good arguements.
Jilted_Manhood:
So you’re saying that Zionist Jews have bought off the US Congress? You’re not actually making an argument here! Yes “I have a problem with that”, last time I checked you’re not supposed to buy influence in a democracy, and if you are, it’s considered non-democratic. Of course, this is what makes Israel and the US hypocritical – it’s all about the bottom line of land and loot, nothing else.
You have a problem with that, huh tough guy? Let’s go then punk!!! What up!?!?!!
^^^ that’s not an argument FYI. And it’s not just because Jews have purchased control of the US; there has been strong Western support for the establishment of Israel since its inception as a colonizing ideology in the 1800s. Theodor Herzl himself envisioned Israel as a beacon of European civilization amid the Arab savages.
Based on what? Pure speculation — and I’m slingin’ facts at you left and right. By the way, Blacks don’t commit crimes out of proportion to their numbers, they get convicted out of proportion to the crimes they commit. Injustice is the rule, not the exception. You should stop reading Dinesh D’Souza.
Anyway, your “assertion” that “if the Arab’s had Israel’s weapons, there wouldn’t have been an Israel” really avoids every point of this argument. If India had British military power and economic power, we wouldn’t have been colonized. So what’s your point? Who has the weapons? Israel. What have they done with the weapons? Brutally slaughtered thousands, far more then the Palestinians can with their pitiful Qassams and sensationalized “terrorism”. Where is the hype for the bulldozings, the missile strikes, the assassinations, the torture, etc? You have nothing to say about that except that the savagery of the Palestinians justifies it. And yet you have no argument even in that regard aside from propagandistic anecdotes.
The death and imprisonment tolls are ridiculously high already, I’m not really sure what you consider “wanton” aside from actually gassing Palestinians in concentration camps.
Kesh:
I can make the exact same argument for the times when Palestinians have resorted to extreme tactics, with the critical difference being that they are actually oppressed, whereas the Israelis are the oppressor with all the power in this situation.
By the way, this thread is an example of how bitter enemies can love and support each other. Just a few moments ago, I was foaming at the mouth, ready to curse Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery‘s soul for all eternity. Now I find us arguing for the same cause. Sepia Mutiny zindabad! Love you Al.
By the way – I pray that the domestic workers make it out. I’ve often seen descriptions of how Asian, particularly Sri Lankan, domestic workers are systematically disenfranchised and oppressed in Lebanon. I’ve heard Arabs comment critically on the particular racism present with regards to the domestic workers in Lebanon. I hope they do not become another casualty of this war.
I am drowsy and Number six has declared my defeat. Backed in a corner, let me use crutches.
Over the last five months, some 800 Kassam rockets were fired at towns and villages in southwestern Israel.Israel occupied not an inch of Gaza at that time.Israel responded not by invading Gaza but by airstrikes against militants and launchers. For those of you who think an air assualt is deadlier for civilians it’s actually quite the opposite. Then came the kidnappings and killings first by Hamas and then by Hizbollah.Both assaults breached a fully legitimate international border in the aftermath of a full Israeli withdrawal.
” A proportional response would please the Europeans no end, but would scarcely move a hair in the beard of a Hamas or Hezbollah leader.They are not set to be gently pushed into moderation, or to hammer out an exquisite compromise with the Jewish state, but to wipe it out as soon as they can. If we shoot a little, they will shoot back all the way into Islamic eternity. If we negotiate, cave in to blackmail and release Hamas and Hezbollah militants held in Israeli prisons, they will send them back to bomb schools and buses and pizza parlors in no time at all.”
I probably couldn’t have said the above better myself. These words are excerpted from a recent Op Ed in WSJ by a moderate professor at Haifa University which is an Arab Israeli University.
disproportionate responses and gross violations of human rights will only inflame people who wish to do harm and only serves to give groups like Hezbollah greater credibility and support. That’s decidedly not in the long-term security interest of either India or the United States, and if we don’t wake up to that fact we may eventually all pay for it.
Number Six I am glad you brought this up. You speak for many Islamic terror apologists. Let me give you my two cents: You should instead be more concerned about the radicalization of the American right and hardening of the Western moderate towards the Muslim world.
Yeti
A.N.S.W.E.R needs people like you. Please join them. i>Brutally slaughtered thousands
When and where? That was straight out of the Arab rantbook. Lies, damn lies. A dozen becomes a hundred and before you know a hundred becomes a thousand.
Where is the hype for the bulldozings
Arab slips into free Israel, gets on a school bus and then detonates himself blowing up Israeli kids. Israelis respond by going into Gaza, give the bomber’s family time to vacate and then bulldoze their family home. You have a problem with that disproportionate response? the assassinations
Done precisely to target the high up masterminds of terror who would never send their own kids into Israel with explosive belts wrapped around their waists. Results in the least collateral damage. torture,
Your friends from Hamas and Hezbollah will be able to show you what torture really is.
Oh for god’s sakes , it’s perfectly possible to believe that the State of Israel has a fundamental right to exist, and even to defend itself, to even be a Zionist, and to still not be down with the bombing of Lebanese civilians all over Lebanon because of what Hezbollah—not Lebanon–is doing from territory in Southern Lebanon that Lebanon has a hard time controlling in great measure because of the past actions of Israel, and which the fairly recently democratically elected government has had very little chance and very little practical help in reorganizing in a sustainable way. Just ask all the Israelis who are against this campaign. I can’t believe it’s so hard to distinguish between a country’s right to exist and moral and pragmatic analysis of its actions on a standalone basis. Newsflash: Patriots can be dissidents! You don’t have to lockstep support your government’s actions! Governments can fuck up! And being critical of a country’s foreign policy and military action is not the same thing as saying the country has no right to exist!
Jilted_Manhood said:
Once again, more winning debate tactics from the right — when you don’t agree with someone, call them names and tell them they are terrorist sympathizers. You’re slipping a bit, however — you forgot to call me anti-Semitic.
Saheli, god bless her, took the words right out of my mouth: would you say the same thing about the many Israelis who oppose their own government?
I certainly don’t need you, of all people, to tell me what I should and shouldn’t be concerned about. But since you’ve brought it up, I am concerned about those developments. And news flash: they’re hardly unrelated to what’s going on in Israel and Lebanon right now.
~~
As usual, Jon Stewart offers good insights, placing Israel’s “measured response” in historical context.
. Just ask all the Israelis who are against this campaign. I can’t believe it’s so hard to distinguish between a country’s right to exist and moral and pragmatic analysis of its actions on a standalone basis. Newsflash: Patriots can be dissidents!
They are a small minority of people. The great majority of the country is behind it. Hizbollah is deeply entrenched in Lebanon’s society, and there is an evident coordinated effort with Iran and Syria. War is terrible, but in this case, very necessary. There is no time or scope for politically correct “measured responses.”
Well, right now they apparently number approximately 20-30 percent — which is a solid minority. But not quite a “small minority” — it is, after all, one in every four or five people. And as we’ve seen in our own country, at the outset of an armed conflict, many people “rally ’round” their leaders even if they have misgivings that manifest later.
But risible, your comment is not at all responsive to Saheli’s point, which has nothing to do with the actual numbers of Israelis who oppose their government. Rather, I take her point to be that the 20-30 percent of the Israeli pubilc who oppose what their government is doing right now are not, as the right wing would have it, anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic, or pro-terrorist — and that further undermines the same claims being made about non-Israelis. It’s a classic right-wing move, as Number Six points out, to tar anyone who might disagree with them as being “anti-Israeli” or “pro-terrorist” — that not only is a ridiculous claim, but also represents a troubling and dangerous move in its potential to undermine democratic discourse and civil society. I am not claiming that this necessarily has reached an extreme point in either Israel or the United States. But the move certainly is the first rhetorical step in justifying political oppression of the highest order, the recharacterization of one’s political opponents as political enemies. Paging Carl Schmitt….
Israel’s actions are motivated by a need to defend itself. By adopting violence and supporting organisations like Hamas and Hezbollah, the Palestinians will never get to live peacefully. The Palestinians have made extremely bad choices when it came to their freedom struggle, Look at what Israel had to deal with….. exemplary characters like Illich Ramirez Sanchez a.k.a Carlos the Jackal, Idi Amin , Ali Hassan Salameh ………………..
Because of the failure of the world bodies to adequately condemn the murder of its citizens. Israel considers itself alone. After Munich, the olympic commitee’s decision to fly the flag at half mast was met with hostility by the entire arab world. If more attention had been given to dispelling terrorism pre 9-11, Israel would not have to resort to such brutal tactics.
Israel knows the sluggishness of the world body when it comes to defending it, why else would it undertake Operations such as Wrath of God, SPring of youth and Entebbe. Do any of you disagree with any of these operations ? When Israel pulled out of Gaza, Hamas used it to rain rockets on Israel. Any concessions given to the militants are turned against Israel, Israel knows its two soldiers now, but it does not negotiate with terrorists. How else is it supposed to get its soldiers back.
Saudi Arabia–A kingdom whose former leader was said to never have smiled again when Israel won the six-day war has condemned Hezbollah, And don’t start with the “US hand in Saudi foreign policy” argument King Abdullah is as conservative as they come, by condemning Hezbollah he has put himself in quite a situation with the country’s religious establishment.
Once the Palestinians give up violence as a means to get to Israel will the middle east ever make steps to achieving peace.
Once again, more winning debate tactics from the right — when you don’t agree with someone, call them names and tell them they are terrorist sympathizers.
I didn’t call you a leftist. I didn’t question your loyalty to the western country where you live and suggest you leave for the Middle East. That would have been name calling from the right.
Saheli: There are actually more Israelis than you cite who oppose the bombing of Lebanon and many more who sincerely feel for Lebanese civilians. That’s to Israel’s credit. It’s a mature society where citizens have a diversity of opinion. Unlike some societies which are monolithic in their hatred for Israel and Jews.
For several years Lebanon failed to disarm Hezbollah which has been long due as mandated by UN Resolution 1559. Israel is doing what they failed to do because its Israel’s survival that’s threatened. Israel has painstakingly asked civilians to leave before any strike. Instead of targeting civilians it is hurting Lebanon during its peak tourism season. Lebanon’s Sunnis, Druze, Christians dislike Hezbollah anyways. Israel has shown them how Hezbollah has held the entire nation hostage.I have already tried to explain why a proportional response won’t work. It’ll only be a quick fix. Israel has a mandatory draft and takes the safety of its soldiers very seriously. Let me play the therapist on certain Indians ( disapora and otherwise ): the frustration that their beloved India can’t grow some balls and fight terror like Israel actually translates into anger at Israel.
If you see the debate above none of my critics have counter argued well. No substance at all.All they have done is pick a couple of sentences at random and dissected their way.
Kesh, unlike your jilted colleague, you seem to want to engage in good faith dialogue on this set of issues, which I do appreciate quite sincerely. Since we could debate the underlying conflict forever without changing each other’s minds — people have been doing so, alas, for decades — let me ask you a slightly different question, for I am genuinely interested in your response (and it is somewhat less of a threadjack).
Why and how do you regard the shift in India’s traditional position with respect to Israel-Palestine to be either in its strategic interest or in line with its anticolonial values? I’m not now talking about the nitty-gritty of any particular conflict, much less the current war in Lebanon, but rather at a more conceptual level. Returning, in other words, to my original question and the point made by Yeti.
Care to name some names when you make an accusation that sweeping? And perhaps even to try to back it up? It is indeed to Israel’s credit that there is that kind of diversity of opinion, but it is not to yours to make “arguments” like this one.
In contrast to you, who relies on the following dazzling bit of substance:
Riiiight. And on what basis, exactly, is it that you make this sweeping psychological conclusion? (Are you yourself Indian? And if so, are you in the diaspora or are you “otherwise”?) You obviously haven’t been paying any attention to SpoorLam — saffron balls are alive and well.
Unlike some societies which are monolithic in their hatred for Israel and Jews. Care to name some names when you make an accusation that sweeping? And perhaps even to try to back it up?
What have you been smoking that you don’t know the answer to that? If you are that ignorant of the sweeping hatred for Israel that most Arab and many Muslim countries and their people share, I would just have to excuse myself from arguing with you anymore. But now maybe you’ll ask me to go figure the root cause of this hatred. Right?
If you see the debate above none of my critics have counter argued well. No substance at all.
In contrast to you, who relies on the following dazzling bit of substance: Let me play the therapist on certain Indians ( disapora and otherwise ): the frustration that their beloved India can’t grow some balls and fight terror like Israel actually translates into anger at Israel.
That’s called the art of hyperbole! And your rant proves my following point once again: All they have done is pick a couple of sentences at random and dissected it their way.
My rant? Only one person ranting in this thread on either side of the issue, and it’s not Kesh.
AK,
In strategic terms…. Allies.
India is surrounded by countries that wish it harm or has harmed it at one time or another. India’s only concrete ally ever was the Soviet Union, after its disintegration India is badly in need of allies. The arab world is still largely influenced by Pakistan, USA is being cultivated, Russia still has some ties and many of Israel’s enemies have the potential to become India’s. Many of the jihadi elements participating in the ‘jihad’ can literally become Rebels without a cause if Israel ceased to exist, the battle ground can shift to Chechenya or Kashmir. It was the RAW-Mossad link that was the first step to establishing diplomatic ties.
Anti-Colonialism, i feel is being used kind of broadly here. Eurpean jews did not come with big war machines and evict Palestinians. The history i know was as typical of jewish history they hampered many arab landlords profits by threatening rent prices living outside city walls. When jewish influence became larger in the area, many Islamists wanted them out fearing a business and religious threat in the holy land. Israeli’s did not arrive here with weapons, infact the british confisticated what they had. It was only throught the efforts of the Lehi and Irbun that they came to their means to defend themselves.
PARTITION would more likely be the word i would use here. Israel is sympathetic to India’s problems in Kashmir its technology has helped many Indian soldiers from becoming cannon fodder, The EU and America had restricted defense sales to India on Pakistan’s behest. Israel has no qualms in helping India with technology. India has treated its jews well and Israel knows that. As i stated before during the Kargil invasion Israel came to our aid and there are reports that Israel was going to bomb Pakistans nuclear reactors long before India’s nuclear tests.( as it had Osirak) but pulled out for reasons i don’t know.
I believe Israel is in the moral right to pursue its policies, and i believe India’s foreign policy decisions have a moral streak to them. I don’t believe India’s support for the Palestinian people will effect any terrorist groups decisions to kill its civilians. Instead parallels will be drawn and India will be fighting battles that Israel is fighting. History has already borne witness to such an event when America supported the fedayeen against the former Soviet Union, The militants having tasted blood then turned against their former allies.
And don’t start with the “US hand in Saudi foreign policy” argument King Abdullah is as conservative as they come, by condemning Hezbollah he has put himself in quite a situation with the country’s religious establishment
Kesh: actually Abdullah made that statement with the full support of Saudi Mullahs. Saudis, Egyptians and Jordanians are Sunni and are very wary of the ascendancy of Shiite Iran and its proxy Hezbollah. The Shia-Sunni rift goes back many centuries and runs deep in the Middle East.
In strategic terms…. Allies.
India is surrounded by countries that wish it harm or has harmed it at one time or another. India’s only concrete ally ever was the Soviet Union, after its disintegration India is badly in need of allies. The arab world is still largely influenced by Pakistan, USA is being cultivated, Russia still has some ties and many of Israel’s enemies have the potential to become India’s. Many of the jihadi elements participating in the ‘jihad’ can literally become Rebels without a cause if Israel ceased to exist, the battle ground can shift to Chechenya or Kashmir. It was the RAW-Mossad link that was the first step to establishing diplomatic ties.
Anti-Colonialism, i feel is being used kind of broadly here. Eurpean jews did not come with big war machines and evict Palestinians. The history i know was as typical of jewish history they hampered many arab landlords profits by threatening rent prices living outside city walls. When jewish influence became larger in the area, many Islamists wanted them out fearing a business and religious threat in the holy land. Israeli’s did not arrive here with weapons, infact the british confisticated what they had. It was only throught the efforts of the Lehi and Irbun that they came to their means to defend themselves.
PARTITION would more likely be the word i would use here. Israel is sympathetic to India’s problems in Kashmir its technology has helped many Indian soldiers from becoming cannon fodder, The EU and America had restricted defense sales to India on Pakistan’s behest. Israel has no qualms in helping India with technology. India has treated its jews well and Israel knows that. As i stated before during the Kargil invasion Israel came to our aid and there are reports that Israel was going to bomb Pakistans nuclear reactors long before India’s nuclear tests.( as it had Osirak) but pulled out for reasons i don’t know.
I believe Israel is in the moral right to pursue its policies, and i believe India’s foreign policy decisions have a moral streak to them. I don’t believe India’s support for the Palestinian people will effect any terrorist groups decisions to kill its civilians. Instead parallels will be drawn and India will be fighting battles that Israel is fighting. History has already borne witness to such an event when America supported the fedayeen against the former Soviet Union, The militants having tasted blood then turned against their former allies.
Sorry about the double post, my browsers acting up.
jilted, I was not aware of that, it makes sense now that you mention it since i’m aware of the Sunii-Shia rift. My sources in Saudi told me otherwise.
Here’s an intresting article, there are some opinions i disagree with but an interesting read nonetheless
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/730/in1.htm
“And yes Jews have historical claim to this land. Read the Bible, Koran whatever the hell you may.”
Actually, according to the Bible, the Isrealites took the land from the Canaanites. So why not give it to them. While we’re at it, how bout we set aside land for the Babylonians, Assyrians, Medians, Phoenicians, Sumerians, Akkadians, and so forth.
jilted, I was not aware of that, it makes sense now that you mention it since i’m aware of the Sunii-Shia rift. My sources in Saudi told me otherwise.
Besides Southern Iraq and most of Iran the other prominent seat of Shia Islam is Lucknow, India. Support for Hezbollah runs deep there too. The anti Bush protests ( and a few small riots ) in Lucknow during Bush’s visit had more to do with Bush’s increasingly tough stance on Shiite Iran than for his invasion of Iraq. Educated shiites from that part of India are secular and more progressive than a lot of their Hindu neighbors.
Akkadians
The Akkadians don’t deserve any land. They should be made to wander homeless for all eternity. And Sumerians too. I know a half-Sumerian bigot who refuses to date white people, and he scribbles cuneiform grafitti in the common areas of my apartment complex.
Ok, jilted, here are your main arguments as I see them… 1) Israel has always been justified in using whatever force necessary to “defend itself” from Palestinians and Hizballah, including torture and imprisonment.
2) Israel is a democratic state and a valuable ally for any freedom-loving nation.
3) Unlike Israelis, who are primarily tolerant of other religions, Muslim Arabs are filled with hate and want to exterminate the Jews, because they are fundamental(ist)-ly anti-semitic.
4) The recent escalation is the fault of terrorist organizations Hamas and Hizballah.
5) The suicide bombings have been the primary cause of Israel’s retributional actions.
Would you say this is accurate? Can you succinctly and briefly state if I missed something?
Also, please know that you have failed to actually respond to any challenges to your position aside from saying, “You’re lying,” “You’re a terror apologist,” and “That’s just not true.” For example, you still actually have had no coherent or meaningful or substantial response to the imprisonment issue.
Sputtering out pronouncements of the Arab hatred of life and Jewry doesn’t actually provide facts or anything for us to discuss.
Kesh, since you’re the “good cop”, can you give a more detailed description of the 1967 conflict? I have a particular understanding of that conflict but I would like to know the sequence of events according to the history that you know. Thank you.
Kesh — thank you for the interesting response. I can’t really respond in kind right now, but I do have a couple of quick thoughts/reactions:
My impression has been that until very recently, the Palestinian movement has been largely Christian, secular, and socialist. Do you mean to say “Palestinians” rather than “Islamists”? The implications are different.
Well, I think that’s at least an incomplete picture of the historical record. At a certain point they most certainly did arrive backed by the power (and guilt, at sitting on their hands in the face of genocide) of the global North — and in particular, by the colonial power of the British. And a lot of Palestinians were forcibly displaced in the process.
(As an aside, I notice that you say that Israelis did not arrive “here” — do you live in Israel?)
I guess that we just disagree on this one. I agree that India’s foreign policy decisions have a moral streak, but part of that morality has traditionally involved (1) anticolonialism, and (2) defense of secularism. You may think I am defining anticolonialism broadly, but it does very much remain relevant given the as-yet incomplete resolution of the question of justice for Palestinians displaced by the establishment of Israel and the ongoing occupation (not to mention the deep inequalities within Israeli society itself between non-Jewish and Jewish Israelis). As for secularism, that principle is very much in tension with support for the farthest reaches of the Israeli right wing (though not inconsistent, at least not necessarily, with recognition of Israel itself).
From my perspective, what Israel is doing right now also is not in the strategic interests of India — quite apart from being unjustifiable morally and in violation of international law, Israel’s extreme and disproportionate responses are strategic folly, for they only strengthen Hamas, Hezbollah, and other extreme groups. (There’s also a certain amount of raw stupidity to the response — for example, the Israeli cartoon caricatures that they are leafletting into Lebanon along with their bombs. Call me crazy, but I don’t think that cartoon caricatures are the best way to win hearts and minds, especially not when they come along with bombs written with grotesque messages by schoolchildren. But maybe there’s a “free speech/First Amendment” issue I’m missing here.) We’ve now lived with failed policies that only feed extremism for at least a generation. Desperation in the occupied territories or in Lebanon will only breed further extremism, and once strengthened, that extremism will not remain cabined within national borders. If and when that extremism continues to spread east — whether all the way to India or just as far as Pakistan — that decidedly won’t be in India’s long-term strategic interest.
AMfD wrote: … And how does Israel respond to the attack on its SOLDIERS on Lebanese side for exchange of Hizbullah members in ISRAELI jails? Its response is to lauch a massive war on Lebanese civilians. In the first 5 days of war, Israelis killed 245 civilians and 5 members of Hizbullah. …
I think its laughable that the Democrats are now siding with Israel and collectively bowing before the IDF and rallying/cheering the assault on Lebanese civilians. …
Hezbollah attacked and took a POW. Israel responded and tried to ensure that the POW is not shipped out of Lebanon. You see Lebanon and the Hezbollah as having distinct identities. That would be fine if they actually occupied distinct geographical locations. Unfortunately to hunt the Hezbollah you have to go through a lot of Lebanese buildings.
Maybe the Democrats are applauding/lauding Israel as doing the right thing since they would do the same if a terrorist outfit ran free within Mexico/Canada and periodically lobbed missiles into Detroit and San Diego.
As for the Dershowitz angle I shall leave your demons alone.
Would you say this is accurate? Can you succinctly and briefly state if I missed something?
Also, please know that you have failed to actually respond to any challenges to your position aside from saying, “You’re lying,” “You’re a terror apologist,” and “That’s just not true.” For example, you still actually have had no coherent or meaningful or substantial response to the imprisonment issue.
Dear Yeti,
I’ll pass. People can read all the arguments and counter arguments above and judge for themselves. Just one example: you still actually have had no coherent or meaningful or substantial response to the imprisonment issue
I addressed this twice ( yes basically the same thing but somehow you keep missing it ): They want an exchange of prisoners. Prisoners who will then be sent back as suicide bombers to kill women children and the elderly on Isarel’s buses. At least Israel is humane enough to feed and clothe these murderers. If we negotiate, cave in to blackmail and release Hamas and Hezbollah militants held in Israeli prisons, they will send them back to bomb schools and buses and pizza parlors in no time at all.”
Yeti, none of these are political prisoners who were writing anti Israeli editorials. There are no Palestinian Gandhis or Nehrus in Israeli prisons. They were caught in the act of operating or planning a terror attack. An attack not against military but against civilians. What do you want Israel to do? To not preempt these attacks but wait for them to realize and then gain the world’s sympathy? As if it hasn’t suffered much already. I’ll be doing my conscience a disservice if I were making all this up. There is enough evidence out there to back all this up. I don’t have the time or journalistic deft to cull it for you. It has been repeatedly cited in mainstream publications which are in no way biased against the Palestinians.
Now I am out of here.
True that, Yeti. The last refuge for people unable to back up their arguments or respond to others on the merits.
Yeti:
Thanks for quoting me on things I never said in the first place. “You’re lying,”
This is what I said ( I didn’t call you a liar ):
That was straight out of the Arab rantbook. Lies, damn lies
“That’s just not true.”
I am straining my eyes out but can’t find where I said that. Is calling you a liar OK now? No, I think it’s a stretch.
AK: True that, Yeti. The last refuge for people unable to back up their arguments or respond to others on the merits.
You’ll now get a cookie for that profound thought!
It was an interesting discussion especially with fellow Desi people on their views on this issue, I have argued with countless Arabs and Israelis about the issue, but it was refreshing to see how desis view the conflict.
Before the war, Gamal Abdul Naser and the head of states of neighbouring arab countries made no bones about their preparation to attack Israel. Saudi Arabia’s Faisal was made aware of the impending attack by Egypt,Jordan and a reluctant Syria. Clerics in these countries were enthusiastic and many people looked forward to the war. Shin Bet already picked up on this.Naser was the Pan-arab leader of the times. He was a hero in the eyes of many after the Suez Canal diplomatic coup. He initiated the Cassus Beli by the afore mentioned blockage of the Straits of Tiran and asking the UN to demilitarise the Sinai region, military mobilisation was initated on the border. Israel could not afford a long drawn out war, the US diplomatic endeavours had failed. Israel was isolated and outnumbered. If Israel had not launched that pre-emptive strike, there would be no Israel. Disabling the Egyptian air force was the most brilliant military move combined with Eli Cohen’s excellent espionage.
You know what happened next, the arab world knew Israel was going to be attacked. However, in their eyes that pre-emptive strike was an indication of an act of aggression.
By the way i don’t claim to be a good cop, Me and jilted share the same views on the subject.
You’re welcome AK-The armed resistance and the terrorism is heavily Islamist influenced. If the Christian and secular Palestinians hope for a secular influence in liberated jersualem they are mistaken, what we would see is something akin to the Lebanese maronite-Hezbollah clashes. The initiation of the conflict was by an Islamist cleric.
Are you saying that the British forced Palestinians from their territories ? and only then did the jews settle down ? From what i know i was of the opinion they co-existed peacefully initally until the large influx of jews from Europe threatened to leave Aras as a minority. This was also a reason for the first violent incidents against Jewish communities.
I used to live in Israel for about two years, i’m in the USA now.
I guess we do and i’m sure these arguements extend to the corridors of the Rashtrapati Bhavan, but i guess you have your opinion and i have mine.
It was a refreshing debate though no doubt. Thanks for your opinions AK
Kesh:
Thanks for the steadfast support. One last thing though. It’s not as if Palestinian terror is a relatively recent phenomenon after decades of uninterrupted oppression by the Israelis. Vicious Arab terror against Israel goes all the way back to its formation. So the ‘ oppressed Palestinians with no avenues left ‘ theory doesn’t hold any water.
Now I am really out of here.
Kesh,
You have some real valid points and good insight and knowledge. I myself follow middle east politics and history carefully because of my interest in oil politics in general.
I refrained from commenting on this topic, as I have Israeli and Palestanian friends (apart from Jewish-Americans and Palestanian-Americans) and just do not want them in google and find me quoting them.
However, a few minutes ago, I was talking to an Israeli and he said one thing, “You know if we do not act like we do, we will be driven to the sea“. Very true.
Then I have known Palestanians in Gaza and West Bank whose parents did not work for months because of curfews and how deep wounds it leaves by daily humilation. I once worked in a lab that had 7-8 Palestanian as the PI/ Director has a Palestanian wife. We had some great discussions.
I think, violence begets violence.
PS: Palestanian milita groups have never been really secular (especially Hamas), some of them are moderately (PLO). Till 1980s, PLO was Marxist in its leanings because of Soviet Union and Cuba support, but that is a different angle. Palestanian Christians are tiny in population, and have mixed support/ allegiance. Some of them empathize with Palestanian Muslims.
To me, the rationale had to evolve down the following path to make sure I feel strongly enough about this to take a stance – an elected government declared war on another country and killed 7 canadians – were they any more culpable in hezbollah’s onslaughts than the regular population? I do not believe so. What comes next now? Will Israel kill everyone, convert the country to a wasteland and thus be safe from future uprisings? I do not believe so. (Recall the rise of the hezbollah as an after effect of Sharon’s adventures in 1982). Societal breakdown and poverty is a sure-fire recipe for national instability – a group of people with nothing to lose and no links into the societal fabric are more likely to turn to crime. All in all, this is a WTF situation to me. One has to take a stance, or risk seeing our politicians stand by as WW III happens.
For Canadians in Toronto, there’s a protest at 180 Bloor street West, in front of the Israeli embassy at 1:00 p.m. on July 22 in case you feel strongly on this (either way).
Other readings from today’s paper(registration reqd).
Salutin states:
Jeffery Simpson opines
Kesh: With respect to the six-day war, there seems to be some debate as to whether or not Egypt was actually planning to attack, or whether it was in fact a defensive position. Doubtless the tension was escalating, but this portrayal of Israel as David to an Arab Goliath is still questionable to me.
“Yitzhak Rabin: “I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.” (Le Monde, Feb.28, 1968)
“Prime Minister Levi Eshkol: “The Egyptian layout in the Sinai and the general military build up there testified to a military defensive Egyptian set-up, south of Israel.” (Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot, Oct.18, 1967)”
“Modechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet minister at the time: “All this story about the danger of extermination [of Israel in June 1967] has been a complete invention and has been blown up a posteriori to justify the annexation of Arab territory.” (Al Hamishmar, April 14, 1972 and quoted in Le Monde, June 3, 1972)”
“Menachem Begin, addressing Israel’s National Defence College, on Aug.8,1982: “In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai did not prove Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with our selves. We decided to attack him.” (The N.Y.Times, Aug.21, 1982)”
These quotes are merely examples; one can find many narratives of the 1967 War that verify that Egypt was not planning to attack Israel – although they may have been preparing for conflict defensively, which does not really differ from Israel’s own military buildup. The Israel-Palestine conflict is probably one of the most hotly debated narratives on the planet today, but I question the assertions of Israel’s oppression put forth by many Zionists.
The core issue is this: is Israel expansionist or is it defensive? I fundamentally believe the former, based on my knowledge of the Six-Day War and the progression of violence that has occurred, as well as of the initial incursion of Europeans on Palestinian soil. Migdall & Kimmerling’s The Palestinians offers an informative perspective on this, if you don’t like reading Palestinian or non-Israeli Jewish authors.
Jilted_Manhood makes you look like a fool, Kesh. I much prefer your style of actually offering substance along with emotion.
That pinko pacifist rag, The Economist, weighs in:
Hmm, these quotes make some very good statements. Though none of them refer to the Casus Belli, the blockade of the Straits of Tiran. These comments are intriguing nonetheless. I need to look into this more. It still does not explain why Nasser wanted the U.N to withdraw from the area but the fact that these personalities are actually disputing the Egyptian attack is very interesting. You’ve given some good information here but i still stand by Israel’s right to defend itself.
Kush Tandon, Thanks for the acknowledgment.
Echoed, Kesh — thanks for keeping an emotional topic civil and substantive.
Right back at you, appreciate the feedback
I was curious about the quotes too, b/c mainstream historians have longed maintained it was a pre-emptive strike against clear Egyptian aggression. If you google it, all one will find are strident left-wing, islamist, or anti-Semitic sites. The only explanation I could find was on the strident pro-Israeli site, LGF. Sorry I couldnÂ’t find a credible source but for what it’s worth, this guy has some explanation:
The actual quote:
“I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to the Sinai on 14 May [1967] would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”
What is the difference? The date of course. Perhaps on May 14th, Nasser did not want war. HOWEVER many things happened between May 14 and June 5. Egypt ordered the UN peacekeepers to leave, Egypt blockaded Israel’s Red Sea Port. Egypt moved another 5 divisions to the Israeli Border, 100,000 troops in all. Egyptian dictator Nasser threatened Israel with genocide.
Here is the original in FRENCH:
Q. Penser-vous que Nasser a fait semblait de croire a vos menaces parce qu’il cherchait a provoquer la guerre?
A. Je ne pense pas que Nasser voulait la guerre. Les deux divisions qu’il envoya dans le Sinai, le 14 mai, n’aurient pas suffi pour declencher une offensive contre Israel. Il le savait, et nous le savions.
I actually went to the library, and looked it up on microfiche.
This is how I found this little tidbit, Rabin also said in the same interview:
A en juger par les sept divisions qu’il envoya dans le Sinai, apres le fermiture d’Akaba, il savait pourtant que nous considererions son geste comme un casus belli.
Translated as:
judging by the seven divisions which he sent to Sinai after the closure of Aqaba, he knew that we would consider his gesture to be a casus belli.
SO, in the exact same interview that he say shows Rabin didn’t believe that the Arabs started the 1967 war, the same interview that helped convince him that the Israelis started the 1967 war, Rabin clearly states that Egypt did start the 1967 war.
By leaving out the date, and quoting out of context, he purposly is decieving (or decieved, you pick).