Many decades ago, in my grandfather’s generation, a branch of the family moved to Ahmedabad, Gujarat. My “grand-uncle” had a hard time getting a place for the family to stay because they were (correctly) presumed to be omnivores. Ahmedabad was Gandhi’s town, and nobody wanted meat eaters around. When the family ate chicken, they did so in secret, with my grand-uncle secreting out the bones in the newspaper to dispose elsewhere during his morning walk. If a carcass had been found in the trash, they would have been summarily ejected from their dwelling, with no bones made about it.
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p>Fast forward to today, where in secular Sodom-and-Gomorrah Bombay the one thing you can’t do is eat meat: 
Never mind pets, smokers or loud music at 2 a.m. House hunters in Bombay increasingly are being asked: “Do you eat meat?” If yes, the deal is off…In constitutionally secular India, there’s no bar to forming a housing society and making an apartment block exclusively Catholic or Muslim, Hindu or Zoroastrian. Vegetarians say they too need segregation.
Rejected home-seekers have mounted a slew of court challenges to the power of housing societies to discriminate, but last year India’s highest tribunal ruled the practice legal. [Link]
I’m having trouble reconciling this news with the fact that 70%-80% of Hindus in India are non-veg (thanks Ponniyin) and even the streets of Ahmedabad are full of little three wheeled trucks that sell chicken in Ahmedabad there is a line of 10 or so three wheeled lunch trucks selling chicken outside of the IIM campus.
Maybe it’s because I’m an omnivore, but I honestly I don’t understand the deep emotional resonance of this issue. While I recognize the ethical implications of various diets, I’ve never tried to define my personal identity according to what I eat.
However, for others, this goes far beyond a lifestyle choice. I know atheists for whom this is a dogma, something that encapsulates who they are and where they stand in the world more than any other set of beliefs they hold.
Furthermore, not only do people care passionately about what they eat, they also feel strongly about what others eat as evidenced above. This is something I especially don’t understand. I’m missing something here, something about what meat eating means both personally and socially. What is it about food that leads people to be offended by the lifestyle choices of others?
For those of you who feel your food choices strongly – what does your diet mean to you? How do you feel about the diet of others? If we are what we eat, how does that matter?
Selected related posts: Food for Ogling, er, I mean, Thought, Ravi Chand, melon eater, That Silver Isn’t Vegetarian, Meat without murder?, Holy Cow: Yet another school textbook controversy
Objecting to meat being cooked at home is definitely different than not allowing people who eat meat to even live in the vicinity.
I know people who don’t like the smell of meat, most are pretty tolerant of others. While living in Vadodara for eight years, I ate meat at the usual food joints and dhabas. The punjabi dhabha guy down the street used to deliver some tasty food to our home. On my usual route to school, I always passed by couple of street side butchers with mutton hanging off it.
At home (in India) we never really cooked any meat. Once my dad and his friends brought a giant basket full of prawns and fish to eat. Since my mom and sister can’t stand sea food, I was delegated to cutting and cleaning the fish and prawns. All my mom did was put the masalas in the pots and stir it up. I gained new respect for non vegetarian items that day, though it doesn’t deter me from eating it. Gutting fish was interesting.
In grad school I got into an argument with a South Indian neighbor of mine. She said they regularly ate beef in Madras. I was shocked since I’d never seen any beef served, despite having traveled all over India including the south. I did find canned beef in Goa. Overall though, eating meat in India is expensive and as a result of the poor logistics of food, items are very perishable. Unless you are a primary meat eater (like Muslims), my loose opinion is that many pretty much fell along the lines of people who like to eat meat, but ate veg. food regularly (as I did when I was in Gujarat).
I did quit meat once when Morari Bapu came by my home to visit my Grandma, but that lasted 3 weeks since my dad brought a can of sausages from Dubai.
In-N-Out Double/Doubles and Porterhouse steaks RULE!
The sole reason that I will never be a vegetarian =)
Well .. maybe when my teeth fall out and I can’t get through a burger. Then I’ll just eat the animal style fries =)
It amazes me how even the non-veg people in India can revert back to a veg lifestyle if they have to. The best example is about 10 years ago (?) in India when there was a ban on butchers or something for a few months (anyone remember more details?) Meat of any kind simply was not easily available. My own relatives in New Delhi, who eat meat at least 2-3 times a week seemed to have no problem…they happily subsisted on daal, roti, and sabzi for that whole time. My aunts didn’t even miss it although I think my uncles did.
Have any other ABDs had the awkward experience of going back to India for a visit, and being served meat EVERY day? I say awkward because you know that your relatives don’t eat meat daily, but since you are visiting they are buying and cooking it daily? I always feel uncomfortable with how much money they are spending but they will not take no for an answer. On the other hand, I was once at a particular aunt’s house, and uniquely she did not go out of her way to procure meat for me, and I think that was my longest veggie streak in my life…about 4-5 days…finally I snuck out and ate at a restaurant because I coulnd’t handle it anymore. I needed meat!
I too faced the same problems. But out of compulsion i started loving salads. Now i have reached such a stage that i can eat them daily five days a week if required. And the best part is that it is so nutritious and digests as if its plain liquid food. No gastric problems at all.
I don’t do a lot of cooking and being a vegetarain does limit a lot of options of “eating out”. I don’t want to order eggplant parmesan or cheese sandwich (w/o meat) everytime 🙁
May be iam just not good enough in expressing what i feel. But from what i see, I think you are still thinking from your perspective and the way we live life now. In the case of Buddha, he lived on alms right? Buddhist monks then ate whatever they are given, whatever, but never grew or made food for themselves. And they were not supposed to demand food to their liking. That was considered wrong. So by eating meat received as alms, we cannot say Buddha was leading to an increase in demand for meat in the market. Buddha ate what was a left over.
But in today’s world and especially folks like us, we do not live on alms. And just because the demand from us exists, animals are slaughtered. So we are responsible. Not just meat but pearl necklaces, leather, silk sarees etc all have caused deaths in their making.
You can try lebanese restaurants if they are present in ur area. Lebanese cooking uses lentils, vegetables as Indian cooking does. You would be surprised to find tasty, spicy sandwitches, rolls and cutlet like patties all made out of vegetables. Of course, they also have spicy non veg fare. So if you have non veg friends, both the groups will find good stuff to eat.
Sigh, looks like we’ve had similar experiences at opposite ends with your veggieness in US and my non-veggieness in India.
Thanks for the exception clause, ANNA, coz if I have any chance of being friends with you, I’ll really need that 🙂
Anyway, lemme bring up another (tangentially relevant) interesting observation. It is considered a well-known truism in grad schools here that FOB students from India and China ABSOLUTELY don’t get along as roommates. The primary cause is food: they can’t tolerate the smell of each other’s spices/sauces. Also, many Indians (like a lot of other people) are disgusted by the voracious omnivorousness of the Chinese, and they find the vegetarianism of many Indians wierd.
Just to show that food-related social effects can happen in different contexts.
Well thats why i said, ahimsa means not having the intent at all. When we are sending mercenaries we are having the intent. So that is not ahimsa.
And when people regularly eat meat as staple food, they are leading to a demand in the market for meat. And if one continues to eat such food even after knowing that animals are being reared and slaughtered to produce that food, then that is a violating ahimsa. Because the person now has the intent. Does this make more sense?
Great post, Ennis.
So much culinary bile! Note to self: no chicken or turkey or hamburger when dining with ANNA, ’cause to her that’s suicide self-murder. 😉
Ennis, I think the analogy to anxieties over gay marriage is an interesting one. Part of that anxiety is the notion that heterosexual marriage is “undermined” by permitting gay marriage. Are vegetarian practices undermined by the mere presence of non-vegetarians in their midst?
Abortion might be another interesting analogy — would analogous logic permit a housing society from banning individuals who have had abortions or doctors who perform abortions in the building? Or, if it is acceptable to permit housing societies to ban meat-eaters from living in the same building, wouldn’t the same logic have to justify banning the “choice” of meat-eating altogether? After all, assuming that we are at some remove from the person sticking their polluted fork into ANNA’s plate, and that Ennis is right about distinguishing between meat-eating and meat-cooking/second hand meat particles etc, doesn’t meat-eating have the same effect on vegetarians no matter where it takes place?
No, rather, the opposite. India came to me by way of marriage when my wife steadily infused my otherwise meatatarian tendencies of eating pig toes and pork with the more blase approach to a healthy colon of serving saag and missi rotis (with plenty of makhan, natch). Sure, my farts smell a bit “cleaner”, but hey.
I still scramble around town and sneak a Taco Bell Double-Stuft Steak Burritos when asked to “get some milk”, but otherwise, I’m not opposed to joining the DARK SIDE.
“Its turning out that nonveggies are more tolerant to differences than the veggies. Any thoughts?”
based on personal experience, i would have to disagree. when i ate meat i used to sometimes hector my strict vegetarian friends about what they were missing out on. they never did that to me. now that i am in their shoes, i realize how stupid that comment was. i’m not missing out on anything. now meat eaters, when they find out i’m vegetarian, do the same to me, ask questions about protein (as others have pointed out, even though most americans get way too much protein) and generally give me pitying looks as if i must be an undernourished and malnourished weirdo. those unfamiliar with indian vegetarian cuisine assume i subsist on salad and pasta. the other argument i’m sick of is along the lines of “indian cricketers would be much better if they all ate more meat.” this is also applied to other sports and other areas of life. i find that non-veg people expect veggies to tolerate them more than the other way around. “what, no meat? what am i going to eat?”
Brown Fob:
I hear you, I’m not a salad eater either. But surprisingly, because there is a large population of Seveth Day Adventists near where I live, you can get a wide array of meatless products from the Walmart type food mega-stores. I happen to love veggie burgers personally [I suppose that is cooking, but only minimally]. They’ve also started to stock various indian frozen-food entrees, as well as vegetarian and vegan frozen foods, and that’s all the out here in middle-america Honkiesburg.
I thought sex was the biggest draw on the Internet…until I read the posts on silver on mithais, and then this one. The only reason Indians obsess over veg vs. non-veg diet and post hundreds of comments is simple – it is a religious issue, not a dietary one. Sex and religion – the two biggest draws on the ‘net.
” Are vegetarian practices undermined by the mere presence of non-vegetarians in their midst?”
is one’s faith really undermined by the mere presence of a person from another religion in your apartment building? yet single religion (and even more restrictive single “denomination” – be it christian, muslim, hindu etc. ) buildings allow for people to exclude others from their building solely on the basis of religion and even gives preferential access to those who are not from your religious background but who married someone from your religious background.
My English teacher used to say:
Always take a real good look at what you’re about to eat. It is not so important to know what it is, but it’s critical to know what it was.
ANNA: If it isn’t too personal, could you explain how your family ended up vegetarian ? Is your extended family vegetarian also ? Because mallu-x-tians are among the most carnivorous people (atleast, Indians) I know, with meat at atleast two (sometimes three) meals a day. Unless they’re observing noimb i.e. “fasting”. I know someone who claims he became vegetarian because he grew tired of switching back and forth according to the church calendar.
Is it is a lifestyle choice?.. yes… But it is also an ethical choice… you decide meat eating is a vice precisely because you are taught it is unethical.. and this ethical choice leads to a lifestyle choice..
Similarly being gay is not just a life style choice.. being gay is a violation of the God’s (Christian) religious law.. you decide not to be assosciated with people who violate this moral code..
I would put it this way… Boycotting meat eaters in a housing soceity: Lifestyle choice influenced by ethical considerations. keeping away from Gays: Lifestyle choice influenced by religion
This is not an argument. I just expressed the the way the people who boycot meat eaters think.. and widely accepted by who… To you it may be just a diet… But this is an ethical issue for a lot of people in India… and as I mentioned a widely discussed ethical issue in Indian traditions
Can someone post the link to the news story Muslims being denied apartments in Bombay? I have had quite a few people tell me that its very difficult for Muslims to rent an apartment in New Delhi. That might add to the ghettoization of Muslims in Old Delhi though I know Old Delhi has always had a concentration of Muslims.
Getting back to the food situation, its absolutely imperative for you and your living partner to share your food habits. Anna’s comment reminded me of an old gf of mine who was a very strict vegetarian. My meat eating really bothered her and put a tremendous strain on our relationship. It didnt really bother me that she didnt eat meat, but she was perpetually grossed out by my meat eating. I think vegeratians might be more intolerant of their partner’s meat eating than the meat eaters are intolerant of their partner’s vegetarianism.
I don’t think so. When i was working in Bangalore, me and my friends were denied a rental on the grounds of meat and girl friends. And all of us were hindus !
Hahaha…
I personally would disagree. My grandfather was the lone vegetarian in our family. He hated the smell of fish and meat but he would still manage to have lunch with us amidst all the fried fish and chicken. And now iam a vegetarian too. But my wife is not. Everybody else other than my grandpa in our family eat meat, including beef.
Ennis, To your question “How much can you smell the meat in a (desi) dish?” , as a hard-core vegetarian , I’ve noticed that even if my nose lets me down – and it does often – my stomach can always tell the difference. Can a doctor in the house tell me if a meat-based protein broken down differently from a plant-based protein ? Thanks.
I think it’s ideal, but I don’t consider it imperative. I’ve lived in Kosher households where they loved me for not bringing any meat in and non-veg apartments where I kept a separate set of dishes, pots, sponge etc. The last time I did that, I lived with a Japanese student and a third-gen Chinese-American kid…both of whom were totally fine with my strictness, since it extended to not ever wearing shoes in the house, something they couldn’t get my predecessor (a gori) to grok. As far as they were concerned, my dietary quirks were half about culture, half about cleanliness, just like the pile of shoes right by our front door. Our carpet stayed white, my plates and silverware never touched meat and all was right with the world.
If it really bothered her, I’m confused as to why she dated you. In my past, if someone did something which bothered me (for example: drugs or driving after drinking), I would not date them. I’ve dumped people over meat-issues too, but only because their ceaseless harassment: “Why don’t you just try it? You’re TOTALLY missing out. I know you’ll be hooked. Do it for me?” started to feel a little bit like emotional abuse.
Well, I think the only thing which is conclusive is that our experiences are all different. It didn’t bother you that she was veg, but it bothered the shit out of the guy I referenced above that I was.
I don’t think so. There’s more of you than us. And lots of meat-eaters don’t want to deal with the necessary extra steps we take every day of our lives, in order to be vegetarian, nor are they thoughtful enough do what Siddhartha did at a dinner he hosted recently; he asked guests to be mindful that the serving spoons in the veggie dishes shouldn’t be used in the meat and v.v. At that moment, I felt very understood, respected and cared for. It was nice.
I’ve never met a non-vegetarain who used to gross out with the smell/sight of vegetarain food. Desi non-vegetarians like their share of paneer and veggies too..so its easy for them to be tolerant of their partner’s/friends’ vegetarain habits. If a friend of mine is frequently intolerant of my eating habits, then he/she is NOT my friend. Its as simple as that.
I don’t think so. There’s more of you than us. And lots of meat-eaters don’t want to deal with the necessary extra steps we take every day of our lives, in order to be vegetarian, nor are they thoughtful enough do what Siddhartha did at a dinner he hosted recently
ANNA you are probably correct about meat-eaters not being mindful of vegetarains, but the situation is a little different when it comes to 2 people in a relationship. For example, my ex-gf (whom I lived with briefly) did not want me to cook and eat meat in the house. I am sure, for example, you would not want to live in a relationship or marry a meat-eater unless he agreed to give up cooking meat in the house. The only irritant for the meat-eating partner is the problem of not going out to eat at certain places where they do not carry a vegetarian fare (most places have something vegetarian anyway). The meat-eater is usually perfectly okay with the vegetarian only eating vegetarian food in the house. So you are correct about the intolerance of the general meat-eating public vis-a-vis vegetarians, but for two people living together (in a relationship) the vegetarian usually has more problems than the meat-eating partner.
AMfD:
Same happens with a smoker and a non-smoker. PS: I’m not trying to equate meat-eating and smoking.
I find it very interesting that this topic is generating almost as much discussion as the marriage/relationship discussion of a couple weeks ago. I definitely consider myself an omnivore. I was raised in a strict TamBram veggie household but still ate meat at friends’ houses and such. Now, as an adult, I still eat a dead animal once in while, but oddly enough I refuse to keep any meat in my house. I’m not really sure why that is. I mean, I haven’t lived with my parents in 6 years and for the 4 years prior to that it was only during summers. I guess the thing that gives me the heebeejeebees is touching raw meat. Why that bothers me but eating a burger doesn’t is an interesting psychological question. I have thought about going veggie, but it would be more for environmental reasons that any moral ones. I remember reading somewhere that livestock consume 50% of the fresh water in the world. Additionally, much of the forest destruction that is taking place is to clear way for more grazing/pasture land. And don’t even get me started on the factory farming thing. All you need to do is drive past a 10 million gallon lagoon of sh*t and it will start changing your mind.
so are people who eat eggs generally considered vegetarians in India? my family eats eggs and considers themselves to be so. our background is palakkad iyer (keralite tamil brahmin) if that helps.
Then both partners have to compromise, or else it will not work. I don’t like having meat in my house either, but I had to compromise, and so did my ex, who went from eating meat everyday to once every two or three months because he was with me. If eating habits are extremely important to people (which I completely understand), then one should look for a partner who shares the same convictions.
hey cheap ass – thx to an earlier post by you – i got rid of my teflon pan and got some cast iron gear – the spiel from the lady selling it to me – it’s good for health as well – especially for women, because the iron goes into the food and replenishes the loss in iron through menstruation – and she said it straight, looking me square in the eye, her brow about the level of my bearded chin – i thought it was awful cute – Anyhow, i wanted to segway off this thread to thank you, because my omelettes and vegetables are coming out way better than with the other pan – and i did want to tip the folks that cooking in cast iron is especially good for vegetarian women – more so if you dont like taking iron supplements.
Then both partners have to compromise, or else it will not work. I don’t like having meat in my house either, but I had to compromise, and so did my ex, who went from eating meat everyday to once every two or three months because he was with me.
I think for people who are raised on twice a day meat diet, it would be extremely difficult to stop eating meat (that is less than once a month)
SS, I cracked up when I read this. Funny how these things are getting equated, related, and intermarried!
AMFD:
You’re totally right. What I meant by “compromise” was that both partners have to meet each other half way. For example, when my ex, let’s call him “Habibi”, physically craved meat (knocked down to every couple of months or so due to being with me), we had this worked out: there was “meat” cookware set aside that he used to cook meat in. On my side of the compromise, I accepted this, despite the fact that I’d wince at the thought of having meat inside my home. Habibi’s concession to this was: he agreed to accept my conditions of 1)no organs and interiors brought and cooked in our home(ie liver, heart, intestines, etc); and 2)cooking meat dishes seperately, ie no biryani with meat in it, but rather, baked chicken prepared seperately that he could help himself to.
Anyway,there are so many things that could be worse than eating meat: shooting up heroine, snorting coke, being a robber, having committed manslaughter (I am aware that some may see eating meat as murder), being unfaithful, being abusive, etc. HairyD: You welcome. And since we’re on the topic of food and cooking, I’d like to remind everybody: TEFLON IS EVIL. Discard it immegiately!
I’m curious… What do Veggies here think about kissing Non-Veggies?
I’m guessing that for most people in the battle of cravings, kissing wins. So even if you wouldn’t want a meat-eating fork to pollute your veggie plate, you’d make an exception for kissing. I think most people would.
But, I’m also guessing that the equation completely reverses when Veggies look at mates for life (aka kissing for life). Just yesterday I was having a conversation with someone here in Mumbai (I’m visiting), and I realized that if I were ever to get put an Indian-style matrimonial in the newspaper, I really would say Caste No Bar, Religion No Bar, Smoking No Bar, Drinking No Bar — Everything No Bar No Problem! — but kindly Veg only, please.
Even though I don’t smoke, I could see how it’s possible to marry a smoker. Just need to define/respect some boundaries. But I can’t see how Veg and Non-Veg work. It’s almost sanitary.
I guess it depends on why one becomes Veg (I’ve been by choice for 19 years now). If for religious or philosophical reasons, then probably it follows you’d pass on non-veggies mates for life. But if the Veg choice is simply for health reasons (more common in the US), then I doubt it’s a non-starter for the Veggie — he/she wants the best mate in terms of the usual factors (looks, laughter & liquidity).
HOWEVER, in my experience, even if a person becomes Veg for health reasons only, over a period of years a genuine feeling of cleanliness develops (and/or aversion for meat) and I just can’t see how that person — who became Veg amorally — now would mate with a meat-eater. At least, it would seem unusual to me.
I’m curious if Veggies here see the same. Or if there are philosophical and/or long-time Veggies who are fine with meat-eater mates for life.
I’m a veggie, but a very loose one. I don’t care if the food I eat contains animal by-products(i.e. gelatin) or if it’s ‘contaminated’ by utensils used in the cooking of meat. I don’t care if people cook meat in the house either and my first ex was a non-veggie. Personally I don’t think it’s very fair to non-veggie hosts to be demanding to such an extent as in the posts above. It’s difficult enough for them to comply with the no-meat preferences, especially if they are students.
Well, this has certainly been an interesting discussion that I have only just managed to plough through, since I didn’t have access to the internet this weekend.
I think that the point about this fundamentally being an ethical issue and going beyond simple considerations of “lifestyle choices” is important, at least in the context of Indian sensitivies regarding the matter (which are deeply-ingrained and, to some extent, centuries-old). Looking at this from a “big picture” perspective, I don’t think it’s necessarily a black-and-white question of eating meat being intrinsically “wrong” — it depends on what other food is available, one’s own personal motivations for wanting to eat meat, whether one enjoys hunting and killing a terrified animal, whether one tortures the animal in any way before finally killing it, whether one is prepared to starve to death on a point of principle if one really disagrees with eating meat full-stop, and so on.
However, from a liberal (and, admittedly, more Western-influenced point of view), people can politely agree to disagree and leave the question of diet up to the individual, whilst simultaneously not berating the other party for their choice (or, if one is a meat-eater, having some consideration for the vegetarian person if he/she’s been invited for a meal at the latter’s house, or is cooking for them, or if they’re eating at some restaurant and the veggie has a severe problem with seeing cooked meat and watching people eat it if they’re on the same table).
Of course, this is somewhat complicated if the vegetarian really finds the very notion of anyone eating meat as truly horrific from an ethical viewpoint. If I may draw a religiously-derived analogy, Sikhs are not even supposed to associate with anyone who practices female foeticide/infanticide because it’s regarded as so abominably beyond the pale. If someone views eating meat in the same way, I can see why having meat-eaters in their presence would be such an issue for them.
Nevertheless, perhaps the greater question is how one treats people who may be doing things one finds grossly offensive. Does one’s avoidance/condemnation/beration of the other party “cross the line” to the extent that it becomes malicious, vindictive, cruel, and disproportionate ? Perhaps this is something to consider. If you may again permit me to use a Sikh example just as a point of reference, as some of you may know, the issue of meat-eating/vegetarianism is a grey area within Sikhism, and there are theological arguments for both sides based on both scriptural writings and historical precedents. However, there are also writings by Guru Nanak where he admonishes the Brahmins of his time for being fixated on such dietary questions whilst not placing greater emphasis on control of one’s ego and how one basically behaves towards one’s fellow man from an ethical standpoint. I think it’s a good question; what is ethically worse — eating meat, or treating meat-eaters in a nasty way whilst simultaneously being egotistically smug and self-righteous about one’s own alleged “moral superiority” ?
Something to ponder 😉
RWG:
I guess I’m not most people. I’m also not that stupid. I’m sure there’s more meat-related unpleasantness lurking in someone’s mouth than on the tines of their fork. But I also don’t let people touch my face et al if they haven’t washed their hands anyway, so it turns in to a cleanliness issue again. Brush your teeth, wash your hands…you’ll taste fantastic AND I won’t get a blemished face.
Apparently there must be, since the vast majority of my North Indian friends (and 100% of those Northies whom I dated) had a vegetarian Mother (and grandmother…and…) but an omnivorous Father. After a while, I thought it must be quite common.
Jai,
That’s a bit of a loaded question to me…I’ve gone on and on about COURTESY and I don’t think being smug or self-righteous about “moral superiority” (or anything else for that matter) is proper etiquette for any situation. I don’t like vegetarians who act like twats, either. I remember watching some disposable reality show (“Amish in the City”?) where one of the house mates was veg and she was in everyone’s face about it, constantly making pronouncements, judging, hectoring, etc. I remember wincing and mumbling, “She’s going to fuck it up for the rest of us” as I watched it. Her words and actions were making people visibly uncomfortable and upset. That’s what I’m against.
I’m always on the lookout for very loose veggies [eyebrow waggle here]
Jai – For starters, I’m not convinced that this is an ethical issue at all for most people (even if an ethical argument can be made). Most veggie desis are born into veggie households and it is more a matter of habit, revulsion, tradition, guilt at breaking tradition etc. Like non-vegetarians who do not eat dog for example. This cannot be because they are ethical about this, but simply because they find the idea repulsive. I will run this ethics argument by a logician, but it is not in the least bit convincing to me. I understand that the meat industry is completely depraved but that is a not an interesting ethical issue because it is so obvious. Scriptures don’t count either as far as I’m concerned.
As for the self-righteousness and moral superiority of vegetarians – this is not something I experienced in India at all but I find this attitude to be very prevalent among the U.S. veggies. Of course to me this is ethically worse than eating meat but thankfully my veggie friends are totally normal and if I’m going out with just one veggie friend I will always go veggie myself just so there’s more fun in it (sharing etc.).
ANNA,
Agreed. My own basic point (and indeed the point being made by Guru Nanak) was that it’s, well, pointless for people to abstain from eating meat on religious and/or ethical grounds if a) they are simultaneously going to treat meat-eaters (or indeed other people in general) badly and b) they are going to become arrogant and sanctimonious about their “pious” dietary choices. Both of these defeat the original purpose, whether we’re talking about the supposed spiritual benefits of vegetarianism or such people aspiring to hold the moral high ground with regards to their conduct in general.
This is actually a critical concept, because it addresses the key issue of egotism, hypocrisy and lack of empathy/courtesy in religious matters, and can be applied to multiple topics relating to the subject (not just vegetarianism). For obvious reasons I don’t want to divert this thread by going too far off-topic, but there have been examples on this blog where people project themselves as being very devout and knowledgeable in theological matters and, indeed, being an unabashed cheerleader for their own religion, yet display a shocking lack of human compassion and emotional sensitivity. It happened on another thread last week which was shut down as you know, but it occurs repeatedly both on this forum and, unfortunately, out in the “real world” too, sometimes with life-threatening results (in extreme cases).
There is little benefit in ritualistically engaging in some kind of supposedly-pious activity (especially on religious grounds) if one is simultaneously going to be jerk and treat other people badly. It’s as simple as that.
Anna writes:
Good point. It’s a commonly held desi myth that meat-eating = physically superior. I’ve covered this in detail in this article.
I had spoken about this in another thread, but I did not get any response. Let me try again…
Science has advanced to the point where, using animal DNA, scientists have cloned animal meat in labs. Currently the process is too expensive to be commercially viable, but they say in ten-fifteen years, you will find factory-grown meat in supermarkets. No animal would have been killed to produce it, and it will taste exactly like chicken/beef/pork etc. Not only that, all of the negative aspects of meat: steroids, blood, urine and other contaminants would be a thing of the past. Chicken, finally, will be a vegetable. Most animal killing would come to a stop.
Would you veggies eat that? If not, why not? (I am a vegetarian, and I will eat that).
M. Nam
Anna’s observation about veggie mothers and meat-eating fathers is very true. It doesn’t have all that much to do with picking a life partner who has different food habits than you do, IMO – if it’s an arranged/introduced marriage then the families in question will probably be of the same ‘vore status. But women, as keepers of tradition and virtue, are usually lauded for being vegetarian, while men are allowed a don’t-ask don’t-tell if they want to eat meat outside the home. It’s extremely common among North Indians and others too. In the few mixed-vore Gujarati families I know, whatever the man wants to eat at home is fine (unless there are vegetarian parents around, in which case the meat-eater will keep meat-eating habits secret out of “respect).
In short, habit and revulsion do play a role in whether or not you choose to eat meat, but meat is also often seen as a forbidden fruit that many males from veg families will try to eat on the sly while for a woman staying vegetarian tends to be yet another test of moral character. Kind of like virginity.
Vegernity?
ANNA:
Sorry, I didn’t mean would you kiss the meat-eater DURING the meal. I meant, say, a few hours later — or the next day.
A Veggie who would get his/her own pots instead of using a meat-eating roommate’s pots — this I understand. But then the same Veggie who would kiss a meat-eater — this I don’t understand. I get it in the in-the-moment temporary way (kissing > food). But for picking a spouse, I’m surprised.
Random White Guy:
Because for some it is not a problem, OK? Somebody can be a vegetarian and wouldn’t mind kissing and bonking a meat eater for life. For others, it would be problematic. It depends. As for me personally, there are other factors that I think are very important in choosing a spouse besides whether he eats meat or not. In my list of priorities, eating meat doesn’t rank #1, though it is something to be taken into consideration.
*Jai bites his tongue and struggles to stop himself from making jokes about “a loose hottie being a loose hottie regardless of whether she prefers to play hide-the-salami or hide-the-zucchini” *
And I’m happily unmarried, so problem solved. 😉
oye, problem solved for you maybe but what to say of your parents! 😉
(i keed i keed)
I love the taste of meat and was brought up a non-vegetarian. But the more I began to read about the utter cruelty and brutality with which chickens/cow/pigs/lobsters/whatever were brought up and killed in most cases I just began to feel that the pleasure I was getting out of eating meat was just NOT worth it — HOW can you enjoy something when you KNOW some creature went through such fear and pain for extended periods of time)in the creation of those delicious dishes? Being lifted up by one leg (of course the muscles etc break) and swung slowwwwwly round a conveyor thingie before being killed? (and this is just one detail of the whole process) Especially when there are so many other choices available?
So. I’m not necessarily opposed to ‘eating meat’ and would happily continue to enjoy my chicken tikka, beef curry, salami etc IF the creatures led half-way normal and happy existences and were killed with one quick blow.
Since that rarely happens, and they in fact lead utterly fear and pain filled lives that end in worse deaths…I refuse to be a part of this sort of utterly selfish, needless cruelty.
Also, I do not judge tribals/other peoples who have had to hunt and eat meat for survival. But you and I, we have no such excuses. I have managed to live on a vegetarian diet in …Cajun country, Chicago, rural France 🙂 etc and yes, while it means fewer choices it also means NOT supporting an industry based on absolute contempt for non-human animals and utter cruelty.