Many decades ago, in my grandfather’s generation, a branch of the family moved to Ahmedabad, Gujarat. My “grand-uncle” had a hard time getting a place for the family to stay because they were (correctly) presumed to be omnivores. Ahmedabad was Gandhi’s town, and nobody wanted meat eaters around. When the family ate chicken, they did so in secret, with my grand-uncle secreting out the bones in the newspaper to dispose elsewhere during his morning walk. If a carcass had been found in the trash, they would have been summarily ejected from their dwelling, with no bones made about it.
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p>Fast forward to today, where in secular Sodom-and-Gomorrah Bombay the one thing you can’t do is eat meat: 
Never mind pets, smokers or loud music at 2 a.m. House hunters in Bombay increasingly are being asked: “Do you eat meat?” If yes, the deal is off…In constitutionally secular India, there’s no bar to forming a housing society and making an apartment block exclusively Catholic or Muslim, Hindu or Zoroastrian. Vegetarians say they too need segregation.
Rejected home-seekers have mounted a slew of court challenges to the power of housing societies to discriminate, but last year India’s highest tribunal ruled the practice legal. [Link]
I’m having trouble reconciling this news with the fact that 70%-80% of Hindus in India are non-veg (thanks Ponniyin) and even the streets of Ahmedabad are full of little three wheeled trucks that sell chicken in Ahmedabad there is a line of 10 or so three wheeled lunch trucks selling chicken outside of the IIM campus.
Maybe it’s because I’m an omnivore, but I honestly I don’t understand the deep emotional resonance of this issue. While I recognize the ethical implications of various diets, I’ve never tried to define my personal identity according to what I eat.
However, for others, this goes far beyond a lifestyle choice. I know atheists for whom this is a dogma, something that encapsulates who they are and where they stand in the world more than any other set of beliefs they hold.
Furthermore, not only do people care passionately about what they eat, they also feel strongly about what others eat as evidenced above. This is something I especially don’t understand. I’m missing something here, something about what meat eating means both personally and socially. What is it about food that leads people to be offended by the lifestyle choices of others?
For those of you who feel your food choices strongly – what does your diet mean to you? How do you feel about the diet of others? If we are what we eat, how does that matter?
Selected related posts: Food for Ogling, er, I mean, Thought, Ravi Chand, melon eater, That Silver Isn’t Vegetarian, Meat without murder?, Holy Cow: Yet another school textbook controversy
Non-veg in india is inevitably spicy. Cooking non-veg gives out a strong smell which is unbearable for many lifelong veggies. Even otherwise broad minded veggies find this smell unbearable. Atleast that is the reason why I support the ban. It is similar to the ban on loud music and parties. This is really a non-issue since veggies are anyway a minority and trend seems to be towards non-veggies.
Is that an issue of the smell of meat (which should be covered by the smell of the masala) or the issue of the dreaded curry smell? If the smell comes from the spices, then shouldn’t you ban all spicy cooking?
being a guju/veggie… my diet means a lot to me..both culturally/socially/spiritually, and politically (aka animal rights)… i don’t find there a need to kill animals for the sake of eating when we can eat plants and things such as nuts/legumes instead… i’ve never had/tried meat…and no, i don’t plan to.. ‘how can you live without a big mac?’… you don’t miss something that you’ve never had… that said, i don’t force my own beliefs/views on other people…if they ask me, i speak.. if not.. nothing said.. but ennis.. you asked ;)…
Are you offended by others? Have you found that omnivores are offended by your choices?
the only offense i take is when i went out to dinner with a ‘friend’ who told me, ‘i hate going to dinner with you, because we’re limited on the restaurants we can go to’… never went out with them again… when people are kind enough to ask if it’s okay if they eat meat around me, i notice that.. it’s not necessary, but it’s just extremely thoughtful… and when i got out with friends, and some of them although being carnivores, order a veggie dish, so we can share amongst ourselves…
certain carnivores are suprised by my choice to be veggie.. esp here in the dirty south….’girl, how do you not eat chitlins?’… ‘i hate that tofu stuff’… there is more than tofu as i try to explain..and the health benefits of being vegetarian are immense… serious health benefits :)…
I can’t date someone who doesn’t eat sushi–omakase at the bar. This is the closest I’ve ever gotten to religion or spirituality. A real sushi meal is a contemplative/meditative experience where you surrender yourself to the artist in a hushed, tranquil environment.
I once ate a live lobster, but I digress.
i was born into an orthodox vegetarian family but grew up eating meat, including some things that i had no clue what they were! blood pudding anyone? some years ago i made the decision to revert to being strictly vegetarian for reasons more to do with animal suffering than any overt religious reason (although the two are tied to some extent). i thought it was going to be hard, but am surprised at how easy it has been. having had pets all my life and considering myself a “protector” of animals i just felt i couldn’t continue eating meat, given the conditions under which they are kept, farmed and butchered. there i was supporting my humane society and a variety of animal welfare and wildlife organizations, and there i was eating things that had been force fed hormones and other foods unnatural to them, probably lived in less than desirable conditions and felt fear as death neared. having seen animals being rounded up for slaughter, suddenly getting skittish and nervous, having heard a pig squeal as it’s was being killed,and having toured an abbatoir in india, i just felt it was a choice i had to make if i was going to be true to who i think i am.
in addition to making my mother happy i feel a lot better. it’s not a choice i would ever impose on others, nor do i think it makes me superior to a meat eater. i don’t miss meat at all and actually find it revolting now (the smell and texture – i never thought i would think this.) i can see why some vegetarians would want their own housing complexes. to some vegetarians, the smell and sight is just unbearable. even when i ate meat i used to find some meat concoctions pretty unbearable. i never understood the concept of a rare steak drowning in a pool of blood. i now admire how my ultra-strict vegetarian mother put up with her children growing up in a manner totally anathema to her and put up with the cooking of meat in her house, since she is very sensitive to its sights and smells, both physically and emotionally, and often had to leave the room. it’s no different than non-smokers who can’t stand smoke but for years had to put up with it. i can’t, it makes me want to throw up. (plus second-hand smoke kills.)
i find it much more odd that you can have housing complexes for christians only, or parsis only, or hindus only, or muslims only etc, where if you know the priest or other higher-up of your particular religious background you can wangle a fancy apartment, and no one cries foul (fowl?) i find that a little more discriminatory and strange in a “secular democracy.” however, i can see how religion and associated eating habits act together. so maybe vegetarians should form their housing complexes not as vegetarians alone but as hindu vegetarians, christian vegetarians, parsi vegetarians, muslim vegetarians etc., since that segregation along religious lines apparently seems to elicit much less brouhaha than a strictly vegetarian complex.
Ennis, it is more of cleanliness issue in india (thought it is getting much better). Most people in india buy meats from butcher shops that tend to be pretty horrendous in the cleanliness area. If you cook non-veg food in india, you are confronted by the following sequence – go to the butcher’s shop which is located in a dingy unclean ‘galli’. There you confront meat on hooks with all the stuff hanging around for hours blood dripping, flies and insects on the meat, chickens that are stuffed in cages in the corner which periodically picked up and hacked in front of you. If you have survived that you take the meat now packed in some paper bag that leaks bloods and sinews staining your bag and clothes. You have to cook the meat in seperate dishes since you never know what diseases the meat carries (there is no FDA). After your meal you dispose the chicken skins, bones, intestines and other stuff into trash that is usually sitting around in the hot sun, it lingers around for some days. Suffice to say, the stench of the rotting meat is too much. I used to go to the shop to pick up bones and some meat for my dog and I used to be totally grossed out.
If you eat outside you are spared all this trauma and focus only on the enjoyable part of the experience which is eating the food.
I was happy to hear about this ban. I think like-minded people should be able to hang together, specially if there are only a few of them. I’m a hard core carnivore myself but I think food habits do reflect on a person. Among animals too, I think those who are more discriminating in their food choices usually strike us as being cuter – like squirrels as opposed to rats.
I’ve never lived in a predominantly vegetarian community, but what I loved about vegetarians in Delhi is that they are so matter of fact about it. In the US people tend to treat this as a moral issue and I find this a bit tiresome. But in general it is a huge relief that vegetarianism is no longer considered weird in the US. In fact it even has some cachet now. I still remember the smirk with which people asked if I was vegetarian 20 years ago.
By the way, the closest thing to sacrilege I found with regard to food was when I discovered that Gujjus put sugar in their dal.
I’ve found, living in California, most people are very nice baout me being a vegetarian. I have East asian and white friends, some of whom seem to only eat meat but they are always respectful and willing to restrict the restauarants we eat at.
I equate eating to ethics. I believe strongly in codes of conduct and honour. I being a hindu dont eat beef but have encountered hindus who eat beef with pride, not realising that by doing so they remove themselves from an unknown bond that holds together communities.
Manju : I won’t date someone who does eat sushi 🙂 But this comes from the girl who considers “cheeto chaat” an acceptable excuse for dinner, so yeah, ignore me.
I grew up eating meat and I’ve been vegetarian or trying super hard to be vegetarian for a couple of years. I would kind of understand how non-veg cooking would be bothersome if you were trying to stop eating meat. I’ve been to restaurants in the states where the vegetarian option would be a grilled cheese sandwich (I hate grilled cheese sandwiches, btw) and my friends would dig into their enormous fried chicken platter. But generally, non-veg food doesn’t offend me. For me, its a personal decision but maybe if religion had more to do with your choice, you might be more sensitive to it. When you smell meat, those are meat particles in your nose etc.
Tomcat, your comment is fascinating to me. So you find their actions anathema? Do you have a visceral reaction to their behavior?
Ennis I think the restricions imposed by our ancestors or by oneself inculcate a discipline. I wouldnt disown a hindu for eating beef but would consider him weak.
Funny, I was thinking about this. I couldn’t date someone who eats beef, which narrows down the pool pretty much to zero in ye cowland. I used to be non-veggie, then became veggie, and have been for a long time now. As a grad student, I found it difficult to share a house with non-veggies , but I am fine with people eating meat across the table from me. I think it’s a visceral, aesthetic, philosophical rejection; I am perfectly rational in other respects! And in grad school, the only people who ragged on me for being veggie were South Asians! My first response to the news report was that it was a bigoted and extreme move (people should be free to do what they want in their own homes), but Naveen’s graphic post puts the entire thing in perspective. Secondly, I don’t know if ahimsa is the biggest Hindu source of rejection of meat (not that it’s not important, but Rajputs and others hunted and ate meat). I thought it was the Gita’s injunction based on the fact that ‘you become what you eat.’ Calamari anyone?
There are 3 kinds of food according to vedic philosophy
Sattvic- Vegetarian clears mind, calms the body Rajassic- Stimulant food like tea, coffee, meat Kings food, warrior food, gives aggression Tamassic- Stale food and stale meat Makes one depressed, dull
I am into Rajassic
Topcat, Sorry but I find your reasoning specious. Even the Buddha himself ate meat. Do you feel that he lacked dicipline as well or that he came along after our “ancestors”?
Abhi I never said hindus should not eat meat, I myself am a nonveggie. Buddha comes from a Kshatriya clan, so meat was his ancestorial diet.
Ennis, I couldn’t get what exactly you are asking given what you already know. I’m sure you realize the ethical implications, the religious implications, the olfactory implications.
It is only when you remove these implications and view vegetarianism as a disinterested “lifestyle choice” can one explain your incredulity and surprise.
One implication that might interest you, and that you might not have known, is a psychosomatic implication. After a good many years of being a vegetarian, it becomes very difficult to even think about eating meat. There seems to be a psychosomatic aversion that is removed from ethics, religion and smell/texture/etc.
Maybe its on the lines of passive smoking etc.
I’m a vegetarian and (as far as I know) have never eaten meat. I don’t find it offensive if somebody else eats meat at the same table. I used to find the sight and smell of meat a bit disgusting (when I was in school)..but 4 years in hostel “hardened” me…now I don’t find it disgusting. The smell is a bit awful at times..but I don’t complain. My friends never had any problems with me being a vegetarian (and vice-versa). We eat out a lot and everybody is quite accomodating. We usually order both vegetarian and non-veg stuff..and that makes everyone happy. My girlfriend is a vegetrain too..and that makes things easier for us.
So how many of you would not rent an apartment you owned, in a building that you didn’t even live in, to a meat eater?
It’s really very simple, most of the time. The ban on meat-eating tenants is to keep Muslims out of Hindu areas. As far as memory serves me (and I’d love to be wrong), these things started happening post the Bombay riots. People who didn’t want “those people” living nearby found that “vegetarians only” was something they could get away with.
I normally never leave anonymous comments, and I’m neither Hindu or Muslim, but I’m sorry, I’m chickening out on this one.
I’ve said this to my best friend .. I hope she didn’t take offense to it =) I would much rather hang out with her at home or at a Thai restaurant and save trying new restaurants for my meat-eating friends just because most restaurants have tiny veg sections. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But then again, I married an extreme carnivore so now I can’t imagine eating a meal at a restaurant without meat – unless it’s pad thai =)
How much can you smell the meat in a desi dish? Sure, barbeque has a clear smell, but if we’re talking desi food can you smell the chicken / beef / mutton in it? If so, how do vegetarians sometimes eat meat by accident?
Can you smell it in the next apartment?
Also, if the objection is to the smell of cooking meat, why not ban the act of meat cooking, rather than banning meat eaters. The distinction is the same as that between dog owners and dog lovers. I’m sure many Indian meat eaters only eat meat outside the house. To ban meat eaters rather than meat eating makes it feel like a moral judgement on somebody else’s lifestyle rather than a practical matter.
Now that makes some sense …
Depends on the dish..and on your nose. I can smell a tandoori chicken sizzler cooking in my neighbors apartment. Infact I like the smell of Tandoori chicken..and I’ve even requested him to cook something with paneer (using the same masala).
Seven Times Six:
Many things we do in life have both ethical and religious implications, but we neither define ourselves by them nor do we judge others by them. Consider something like charitable giving – is that as viscerally important to you as the issue of meat?
As for the olfactory implications, sure, if you live above somebody who is roasting flesh, you can smell it. But most of the time, the smell that carries from desi food is that of the spices it is made in, and that overpowers everything else. Furthermore, that argument would make sense only for small landlords who live in the same building where they are renting units, not as a general practice.
I’m feeling the psychosomatic explanation a bit more – if you think of meat as unclean and disgusting, then maybe you don’t want anybody to bring meat near your property, to contaminate it, even if you don’t live anywhere near by.
But what you’re really smelling is the masala, by your own admission, not the chicken or paneer. Do a blind test – ask him to cook a Tandoori dishes at random and see how well you can tell the chicken from the paneer.
Some non-veg desi dishes don’t smell like non-veg..while some do.
After a two hour long solo shopping trip: Me: Honey, go get the groceries from the car. Husband: (coming in for a kiss) sniffs, why do you smell like soy sauce? (makes a face) Me: (wailing as I run up the stairs) Sorry, I sneaked out for sushi…(brushing my teeth vigourously…)
Life after marriage to a vegetarian who makes faces!
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blockquote>But what you’re really smelling is the masala, by your own admission, not the chicken or paneer<\blockquote> Ennis – I once requested a cook (in one of the Indian restaurants) to prepare me a tandoori panner using the same masalas as that used in tandoori chicken. The cook tried to convince me that it won’t taste or even smell like the “real thing”. It did smell a bit like the real thing..but not the same. It was yummy..but I don’t know how it compared to the real tandoori chicken.
Ennis – I once requested a cook (in one of the Indian restaurants) to prepare me a tandoori panner using the same masalas as that used in tandoori chicken. The cook tried to convince me that it won’t taste or even smell like the “real thing”. It did smell a bit like the real thing..but not the same. It was yummy..but I don’t know how it compared to the real tandoori chicken.
Sure, they wont smell exactly the same on the plate, but even a distance of 5 feet they will. I’ve had both …
All Indian foods smell. Its the masala, onions, garlic and whatnot. Dont blame the nonveggies.
Sleepy:
But there are a lot of advantages to dating someone who likes to eat raw flesh.
Nice Post!
Ennis,
This is a futile exercise. I have long ago given up enquiring about this obsession of many Indians from different parts of the country with their peculiar dietary habits and restrictions. Whatever works for people to make them happy is OK by me as long as they do not harm others or impose their set of morality. What people eat is an individual choice and it should remain like that. Anyways, there are more important problems in this world to think about than dietary habits of individuals.
I am a Bengali. Therefore, I have eaten meat from the day I started taking solid food. An overwhelming majority of the Bengalis, Oriyas, Assamese, and residents of North-East India are non-vegetarians. They do not have any qualms about eating meat, especially mutton/lamb and chicken, irrespective of their religion. Fresh water fish, found abundantly in the rivers and ponds in these areas is a staple food. Fish provides a good and cheap source of nutrition in these areas. What people of a region eat is dependent on what is available in abundance in that region.
Regards,
I appreciate the discussion that’s been provoked, but it’s naive to think that this is really an issue of what you eat. My cousin’s live in South Bombay, and they made it clear that the real reasons these communities exist was for de facto segregation by religion and community, a practice that is dying out now that the Supreme Court has agreed it’s OK to have an all-hindu housing project. Most of the vegetarian buildings are owned and populated by wealthy Gujurati business folk, who would prefer to keep those blasted Sikhs, Muslims, Punjabis, Marathis, Tamilians etc. away from their beachfront buildings. The vegetarian restriction is an easy way to do so; they check and make sure you are from the right village or whatever and then they accept you, regardless of what you eat. A friend of mine who lives on queen’s necklace told me that his Mom routinely served non-veg in their “vegetarian building”, it just didn’t matter because they were Gujurati Diamond traders and no one was going to tell them to leave. I wonder if a Muslim would be shown the same tolerance?
Also, Topcat, as a Hindu that doesn’t eat beef, I accept your charge to me as being weaker in discipline than our ancestors. I hope you are either married or still a virgin, do not touch liquor, cigarettes or drugs, perform your morning rituals by side of the Ganges (or other holy water) everday, meditate on the Lord during every waking moment, and are planning on giving away all your possessions once you retire and leading the life of an ascetic in the forest.
If not, you are worthless and weak.
Sorry, that should say DOES eat beef. And I like it. I’m not saying it’s right, I was raised in a vegetarian household myself. Somewhere along the line I decided to make the choice for myself, and my personal feeling is that humans are omnivores and I needn’t restrict myself based on some ancient scripture that made eating the cow wrong, but allowed Brahmins to eat horse as part of the Ashwamedha Yagna (sp?). Still, since my parents and sister are veg, I respect their choice and try not to offend their sensitive palettes with anything too gross in their presence. They in turn respect my decision to eat meat, and sometimes agree to go to a restaurant I like that serves few veg. dishes. That’s how it’s supposed to work. Sorry for all the postings.
Ennis, This might be true; but, when it comes to fish your argument fails! If you cook fish at home, rest assured that the entire colony will know about it:) Fish smells like FISH and not the Masala! On a different note, I know someone who went to McDonald’s for the first time and enjoyed a “cheese-burger”, thinking it was just cheese, and hence vegetarian:) Peace.
The figure “70-80%” are non-veg is not of qualitative nature. Non-veg includes eggs & fish which it the extent of non-veg most people go to. Also Siddharta was non-vegetarian, not Buddha. So was Mohandas and not the Mahatma.
Most born vegetarians cant even stand the sight of dead animals hanging on poultry shops which spring up near non-vegetarian residents. Most veg’ians can almost always make out, by smell, if something is veg or non-veg (when being cooked). If not cooked, uncooked meat has a very distintive smell as evident in secluded sections of grocery stores.
I’m a born again vegetarian; gave it up 10+ years ago and haven’t gone back.
I have people ask, “Do you mind if I eat meat in front of you.” That’s a nice gesture, and I don’t mind (I’m in a mixed marriage to an omnivore).
I think the key question is that I should ask, “Do you mind if I DONT eat meat in front of you?” I know Americans get weirded out and start pelleting me with questions “where do you get your protein” “carrots have feelings too.” and so forth. I don’t invite discussions about veg’nism or anything. But they do. Actually, I think Indians look at me little sadly – “oh this chicken curry is awesome. Wish you could have some.” (If I wanted it, I would, but I don’t.)
I don’t bother people who eat meat, yet they comment on my choices.
The phenomenon of vegetarian-only buildings in Bombay has been around for a long time – people would point to “Jain buildings” when I was growing up in Bombay. However, it’s a definite stretch to say that the one thing you can’t do in Sodom and Gomorrah Bombay is to eat meat – Jain buildings are in a minority still. Some vegetarians take themselves a bit too seriously,and/or use their vegetarianism to justify prejudices. I am thinking now of some Marwari Jain landlords we once had who refused to let a Kashmiri Pandit family move into the building – two floors below them – because “Kashmiris cook meat” (I mean, we cooked meat too, and it wasn’t a problem – I think it was an excuse). It’s very hard to get flats in Bombay if you are Muslim, NDTV did an undercover show about this a year or two ago and sent the same reporters around to try and rent a place with assumed Hindu and Muslim names, and the “Muslims” usually got the “people in the building wouldn’t be comfortable with you living here” excuse. Some Jains are also known to not want to let anyone of dubious caste into their buildings, want to live among their own, etc. In principle I support their right to form their own little co-ops, as it were, but when you have to live around this you see and hear the prejudices behind their desire to not live with others, and that’s quite distasteful.
The most ridiculous thing I saw was a campaign in one building in a nice part of South Bombay to evict a restaurant that had bought the ground floor commercial space because there was a temple in the building compound (probably illegally built!) and people didn’t want to pass by a restaurant that served meat on their way to the temple. If you were to follow that reasoning, nobody who eats meat should be allowed within sight of a good vegetarian, because that’s polluting – people need to get used to the idea that they live in a metropolis, for god’s sake.
Just finished my good deed for the day; I bought a bag of Baby Carrots and set them free:)
Well, in New York the co-op laws are pretty strict and the Board can decide not to let you in for any reason. They manage to keep their buildings pretty homogenous, and the board is not required to disclose the reason for rejecting an applicant. Imo, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to live among your own kind. This is how most societies are structured. Only in the U.S., where the entire land was re-populated, was there reason to contend with artificial concepts such as integration at all costs. Now some of us think it is our birthright to be accepted by all.
Let’s say money wasn’t an issue, how many of us would want to live among people who never bathed or who were not very educated? From what I’ve read on this board, people would be rejected based simply on the music they listen to. I think it was Nietzsche who said that ultimately it all comes down to smells and cleanliness. And I agree. No matter how much “equality consciousness” one thinks one has, you have to put yourself through the smell test to really make sure. You will find you cannot bring yourself to sit next to a homeless man, not because he is poor and homeless but because of the smell.
IÂ’m Kashmiri and would probably be the first to be rejected by the veggie community, but I donÂ’t think I would want to live among ultra-conservatives anyway. One of the reasons Indian culture has survived when all other ancient civilizations have been wiped out is precisely because of the cohesiveness of the bonds between communities (jatis). One can read all kinds of sinister things into this, and they may even be true, but theyÂ’ve stuck together for centuries with their own peculiar customs and habits and they should be allowed to do so even now.
A number of people have mis-identified the buddhist position on eating meat. The only restriction on a buddhist monk is that they cannot ask for a specific kind of food when being fed by lay people. They MUST accept whatever is offered (of course, presumably not if it is rotten/poisonous).
The buddha generally was very skeptical of the “moral” or “religous” benefits of food restriction. This is part of the general buddhist skepticisim of hindu/jain rules in this area. There is a general buddhist injunction towards non-violence; causing an animal to be killed is considered a bad thing.
The buddha ate meat (speculation that his last meal was pork) and so does the dalai lama.
Or they could hunt down a deer or a cow when tired of meditating in jungles. I dont undertand why they keep coming back to villages everyday…
OK, after months of not commenting due to an illegitimate IP block, I’m actually going through an anonymizer to ask: Do people in Bombay’s veg buildings have pets? Is it OK to have a cat or dog, and feed it regular ol’ cat/dog food, in a veg building? Inquiring minds want to know.
I’d love to live in a building that prohibited preparing meat on the premises. Yes, you can smell cooking meat, whether or not it’s prepared in spices, and to many vegetarian noses it smells disturbing. But I wouldn’t care what people ate when they went out. Same with smoking – I’d love to live in a nonsmoking building. My last place in Brooklyn had a nice roof. A neighbor would smoke his cigars up there and the stench would come right into my windows. Even when the windows were closed, it somehow came through the kitchen vent. Gross. More than anything I’d like to live in a QUIET building, in which noise rules were actually respected and enforced. A girl can dream…
Back to lurking, unless Paul can unblock me.