Over the tipline we are often asked by Indians living in India why we (as individuals) don’t blog more about certain Indian issues (especially those dominating the Indian media). The simple answer is that you most likely wouldn’t want to read what we have to say about many Indian issues. We aren’t Indian nationals, we all reside in North America, and we are all U.S citizens (except for our current guest blogger who runs our Canadian operations). This means that our opinions, at best, would provide some with a broader perspective on a given topic, and at worst could come across as ignorant or ill-informed. There are better places to read about Indian issues if that is what you are looking for. And yet, those of us who write for SM have definitely felt some resentment at times from parts of the Indian blogosphere, both when we blog an “Indian issue,” and when we don’t.
I know that the current hot topic in the Indian media is the battle over a quota system in Indian universities. I wasn’t going to write a post about it because the Indian educational system doesn’t affect me in any way. However, my mom mentioned the debate to me over the phone and we got to discussing it. I realized how similar and how different the debate in India is as compared to the affirmative action debate in the U.S. Being a graduate of the University of Michigan, the central battlefield for affirmative action in the U.S., I have some definite opinions on the subject and am generally in favor of affirmative action and the type of educational environment it leads to when implemented and executed properly.
My mom opined that she kind of supported the protestors in India. I pressed my mom on the matter a bit since I am more inclined to support a quota system of some kind. What about 3000 years of class oppression? You can’t just erase that with pithy protest slogans like:
DON’T MIX POLITICS WITH MERIT; QUOTAS: THIS CURE IS WORSE THAN THE DISEASE; MERIT IS MY CASTE, WHAT’S YOURS?… [Link]
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p>Time Magazine Asia breaks down the central arguments in the debate:
“Modern India should be built on merit, not caste,” says Dr. Sudip Sen, 34, a Ph.D. student in biochemistry at AIIMS. “What’s next — are we going to let a slow runner represent India in the Olympics? No, we are going to send our best runner out for the 100 meters, no matter his caste. It should be the same for all fields.”
Countless other Indian medical workers who have gone on strike this week feel much the same as Sen, which is why India’s sudden battle over affirmative action makes the ongoing divide in the U.S. over racial preferences seem tame by comparison. Public hospitals across the country have shut their doors to all but emergency services; private hospitals in some Delhi suburbs are following suit; trade unions have called for a morning of civil disobedience; and students at India’s elite business schools are meeting to plan their own protests. In spite of the disruption, the government has sworn that it will not back down, regardless of who resigns or how many protest. Increased quotas, it claims, are the only way to foster social equality at the institutions that are driving the Indian economy forward.
That fast-growing economy often makes it easy to forget India’s rigidly stratified past. But any country hurtling along the path to modernization is at risk of being occasionally slowed down by the weight of its own history, and in this case, India has been yanked to a crawl by 3,000 years of a strictly codified social pecking order. [Link]
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The underlying argument in support of affirmative action in India, as well as in this country, is that even though the system is “pretty good” today, you can’t just set aside injustices of the past as if they stopped having any effect on the present. In a perfect world everyone would advance only on their merits. The world has never been perfect though. Sometimes two wrongs is the only way to do right, especially given that family wealth has a way of passing from generation to generation, thereby maintaining social and class divides, and often strengthening them.
Unlike race or class, caste is not something that can be read in the color of one’s skin or in the cut of one’s clothes. Caste is written in a far more nuanced language of family name, livelihood, origin and identity politics; yet it is an issue that has managed to polarize the nation. Urban Indians, increasingly categorized by wealth, say that caste has no bearing on the kind of jobs they can get, yet classified matrimonial ads often list caste as a principal criterion in the search for a suitable spouse. In the countryside, caste defines not just social status and employment opportunities, but also access to education. [Link]
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p>Even having been born in America I can easily see the subtle ways that the unofficial caste system has been kept alive in the thoughts and attitudes of many Indian Americans. Caste was not left behind in India but rather came to America like a stowaway rat aboard a ship, and like a rat it does most of its business in the dark corners of the room. As I kept talking on the phone with my mom I realized what was driving my opposition to her support, albeit lukewarm, of the protesting doctors and students. I wanted revenge. I wanted revenge for all the ignorant comments I had heard about “Untouchables” on my trips to India. I wanted revenge against all the people that think being part of the Brahmin-caste actually means something, or is worth mentioning in casual conversation. I wanted the students to continue their hunger strike and I wanted them to ultimately capitulate. I feel bad for them and feel it is unfair that they should have to shoulder the brunt of Indian history, but even society has a collective karma. As many know well, bad karma cannot be protested away and doesn’t care about hunger strikes. It must be worked off, often through the suffering of those that appear to be innocent. Maybe it is a good thing that there is no easy solution to this conflict.
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p>The final decisions will likely be driven by politics anyway. India’s voting poor outnumber the voting middle-class and the rich:
“It is ridiculous to think that those protesting the reservation system are elitists intent on maintaining their superiority and that those who support them are representing the people,” says Andre Beteille, a Delhi University professor and scholar of social inequity in India. “This situation is not about caste, it’s about politics.” Cynics echo that view, pointing out that the lower castes who would benefit from the reforms are one of the most active voting blocs in state elections. [Link]
See related post: Americans love their Indian reservations
“Choora” is just colloquial shorthand for all those of lower caste. It is neither disparaging nor patronizing.
“As if the issue of caste in India should be contingent on the discussion of it in Pakistan too. Please! This is juvenile and pathetic.”
ok, if not pakistan, then did it include nepal, bangladesh or non-hindu communities within india? or is that also being juvenile and pathetic? i guess i am being naive to think that people, especially non-Indians, claiming to speak on behalf of dalits and bigotry against them would be concerned about it at a south asian-level (or is that term only politically correct in some instances and not in others?) and not just on a country/religion level at a conference titled “World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban, South Africa.”
but let’s just leave it at me very, very bad and you very, very good. it simplifies everything and ties it all up in a neat box and requires no further discussion. and that is the conclusion of this sm conference against caste discrimination, racism and other -isms. have a nice evening:)
???? whoa! I’m pretty sure I remember Choora being thrown around as a fairly disparaging word. While the word may originally have meant to be some sort of collective noun for people of lower castes, the word now most definitely is used in a negative manner.
dalits are not a homogenous group. you can find discrimination against dalits among all religions, classes, castes of india. you can find it in neighboring South Asian countries. the conference didn’t seem to address that.
Thats called graded inequality. castes discriminating against each other. Ambedkar knew this and knew that this had to be overcome, which is why besides the Mahars no other Dalit castes really backed him initially though Jatavs and now a very large cross section of Dalit intellectuals are Ambedkarites. It is victims fucking other victims, which is what makes the caste system so insidious in the first place. when dalits unite it makes the powers that be nervous – which is why both the Hindu nationalists and the secularists try to come to terms with Ambedkar in their own way. when OBCs unite…well it would seem to make upper caste marginalization in the political realm an eventuality in North India, as it has been in the South for a long time. See Jaffrelots work on Ambedkar and the rise of lower caste power in North India
How many Brahmins drive Lorries = none How many Brahmins do house hold jobs like cleaning utensils = none How many Brahmins do sanitary jobs = none Brahmins do not do low key jobs.
The upper-caste or the Brahmins only do the white collared jobs in the society. Generations have passed and the lower castes are still working under the upper castes. Only the upper-castes get good jobs.
The new party lok paritran (constituting the iit dudes from the upper castes) discriminated a lower caste guy who won in the election by taking away a post and gave the powers to an upper caste guy from mylapore just because he was from forward community.
If lok paritran comes to power then nobody can save the people of India.
risible The rise of lower caste power will definitely swamp the brahmins and other upper castes into insignificance. When it comes down to demographics, India’s population is composed overwhelmingly of the lower castes. Hindustan may soon be renamed “Tattistan” and the national flag will be changed to replace the Dharma chakra with a commode 🙂
“It is victims fucking other victims, which is what makes the caste system so insidious in the first place. when dalits unite it makes the powers that be nervous – which is why both the Hindu nationalists and the secularists try to come to terms with Ambedkar in their own way. when OBCs unite…well it would seem to make upper caste marginalization in the political realm an eventuality in North India, as it has been in the South for a long time. See Jaffrelots work on Ambedkar and the rise of lower caste power in North India.”
true. human beings the world over victimize each other all the time, caste system or no caste system. let everyone speak out at whatever forum they want to and demand their rights. shades of grey.
@ Anand:
I find your comments to be quite amusing.
ABSOLUTE BULL!Doing well in a test/performing better in college requires intelligence.However it also requires culture that emphasises on studying.(Having parents who are educated),positive role models and family encouragement. Notice anything familiar about the above? If not? Let me clarify.
1.Brahmins (especially South Indian Brahmins) are highly educated and each family has two or three generations that have atleast school level education. 2.Check out your own immediate family,(assuming you are a Brahmin).You are most likely to have role models who have gone to IITs,or abroad.This kind of increases the pressure on one to succeed.I should know, I remember the unbelievable pressure to get into IIT two years back. 3.The ability to recite mantras and emphasis on study of religious texts means that the average brahmin is actually able to succeed better in a rote learning education system.
On the other hand, Consider the other castes..
1.Large number of families are still uneducated.Even if you have an IQ of 150, you can do succeed only and ONLY if you have a good atmosphere. 2.Absence of role models, if any.Many of my friends in my college are going to become the first engineers in their family.They most certainly are not going to be able to make efficient use of the resources available. 3.If your family has been cleaning toilets for the past five hundred years,You are raised in a culture that concentrates on surviving.THAT however DOES NOT mean that you are only fit for doing that.
Thanks.
Long time lurker, First time poster 🙂
You titan of moral complexity! Without your insight we would be on a blasted heath, buffeted by the wicked and disgusting moral simplicity of Dalit campaigners seeking to discuss the discrimination of caste in an international forum. What simpletons! And only you are capable of injecting the insight of how it’s not all black and white. Such fools as we are, and such moral depths and complexity. No pathetic juvenile nonsense of how it is all a Plot Against India because, hey, Pakistan does not deal with the issue, so the persecution of Hindus and India takes place unfairly. SpoorLam isn’t satire, he is reality, man! You are a case in point.
Information is an eye opener. I am trying to host a web site to address the College/University quota’s system. To start with the site basically will have all the universities and its affiliated colleges with offered courses and number of seats. The information can be expanded as we go on. Further, I havenÂ’t found any one site that deals with this quota issue.
I am looking for participation where by the participants can themselves maintain the data by universities/colleges. Can anyone help get me in touch with the protester panel?
Hail Mogambo!
Anand speaks the unvarnished Politically Incorrect Truth that ‘South Asian’ ‘inclusives’ seek to deny. He is a hero and a truth teller and his devastating knowledge and repartee has singlehandedly restored brahmin pride and confidence on PseudoSecular Mutiny. You cannot handle the truth. You CANNOT HANDLE the TRUTH.
Anand, if you are not married, may I suggest my cousin? She is as tolerant and clever as you, hates chooras, negros, Abrahamics and gays, and is part of the model minority of a small town in Conneticut. Together you could birth a superpower child, with superpowers, who would be perhaps the most tolerant of all. Rumours that she is not a virgin and has slept with white men are not true.
Hail
MogamboAnand!See also related SM post here.
thank you, spoor lam.
All i said was its a bit odd that a story so big affecting the largest country in South Asia is not even mentioned, i didn’t demand a opinion on it. And i don’t mean to exclude the other countries in South Asia, but when it comes to the number of stories being covered/posts being written on this blog, you have to admit the majority have the indian connection if not directly from India.
you might want to read this http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm?q=tp&file=.htm
i’m taking it with a grain of salt… “the plight of the upper castes”?! but apparantly there are brahmins cleaning toilets.
where are my hi-fives? you must spread the love to the creator of the plan to disenfranchise biharis (and republicans)
come on, anand i expect at least a shout-out (or a HELLLOOO) from you in your next post
Tarun, you’re so full of it. Brahmins do hold menial positions in India (in fact, I recently read an article about Brahmin janitors in North India), and what’s wrong with that? Are you saying the dignity of any human’s labor is somehow decreased when they work in service and blue-collar jobs?
As for this post, it shows some arcane notions the west holds regarding the caste system as it exists in India today, and Brahmins in particular. While most of the pecking-order anger in India is directed towards Brahmins, the fight really lies between various members of the Kshatriy/Vaishya classes and “lower classes.”
Being Brahmin has meant nothing since the 1960s when university quota systems were established and many Brahmins fled India for the west. I will also submit that being Brahmin does mean something, albeit from a personal, religious view and not a social one. There’s nothing wrong with being Brahmin as long as one doesn’t lord it over others, and that hasn’t happened in India for decades. There hasn’t been the opportunity, politically or economically. If anything, Brahminism has been translated into nationalism (ick!).
So, please channel your nascent sense of retribution appropriately.
you might want to read this http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm?q=tp&file=.htm
i’m taking it with a grain of salt… “the plight of the upper castes”?! but apparantly there are brahmins cleaning toilets.
Gautier plagiarized Meenakshi Jain’s 1991 article.
“You titan of moral complexity! Without your insight we would be on a blasted heath, buffeted by the wicked and disgusting moral simplicity of Dalit campaigners seeking to discuss the discrimination of caste in an international forum. What simpletons! And only you are capable of injecting the insight of how it’s not all black and white. Such fools as we are, and such moral depths and complexity. No pathetic juvenile nonsense of how it is all a Plot Against India because, hey, Pakistan does not deal with the issue, so the persecution of Hindus and India takes place unfairly. SpoorLam isn’t satire, he is reality, man! You are a case in point.”
“Look, he’s winding up the watch of his wit; by and bit it will strike.”
“All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.”
“Cudgel thy brains no more about it.”
“God has given you one face, and you make yourself another.”
Ponniyin Selvan, yes, I do think inter-caste marriages will make a difference and are necessary to combat the whole caste thing. That said, the real problem is that it is a bidirectional thing – it’s not just that upper castes will not marry lower castes (although that has been the more likely direction of discrimination historically), it’s also that people want to marry “within” caste. Economic mobility may have an impact there, I’m not sure. Also, to those who may not be aware, the rigid arranged marriage system also constrains people from the same caste marrying on many other grounds such as sects, astrological considerations etc.
Much of the poverty that gets blamed completely on the caste system is in a large part due to the abysmal economic and administrative policies/failures. As has been repeated ad nauseam, there is no talk anywhere about how to address the issue at the grassroots, primary education level. Economic upliftment is as much about sound policies and execution at the ground level than grandiose policies, the motives for which are clear to everyone. You cannot create an entitlement economy when half a billion people fall under the categories that you decide to be deserving of that entitlement. The worst aspect, though, is that all these are open ended.
I am a BC and i dont think this reservation will benefit the community. While i agree that reservation is strictly needed for MBC’s, SC’s and the ST’s there is no need for 29% or something for the backward castes.
Who in the backward castes are getting closer to the IIT’s and IIM’s. Even if the Govt allots reservations for the BC’s i dont think people will get benefit out of it.
Instead the Government could increase the quota for the SC/ST’s.
I agree Brahmins are targeted by the reservation gimmick of the Indian politics.
Strongly disagree there. As an example my family is Brahmin too and I feel like some of them do lord it, even if it is in subtle ways. I didn’t use Brahmins in the post above as some sort of archetypal example to pick on. I used them because that is what I am most familiar with since I was supposedly born one.
Thanks for bringing this topic, the writer being a brahmin himself. kudos!
All, warning – long post I have read most of the comments on this thread, and it strikes me that a lot of the discussion on caste is how the West understands it, which is to say, not like it actually is.
India exists on multiple planes, I daresay, in a more complex way than most western socities (If you think I’m biased, don’t bash me, yet). If you entered each Indian citizen into a database with a list of a bunch of attributes like gender, age, caste, financial wherewithall, education, location etc, and tried to cut a crosssection of people who are most disadvantaged in TODAY’S INDIA, you will see that caste will only be one of the many collective attributes of the cross-section without being its theme. I think the theme would be poverty/lack of money/financial wherewithall, not caste itself. I know of many many non SC/ST/OBCs that are not only poor and share other attributes associated with the oppressed, but actually are doing worse since THEY don’t have any reservations for them! 40 yrs ago, reservation was supposed to help SC/ST/OBC get on the vehicle on the road to national opportunity. Today, I think the situation has turned on its head – its the higher castes that’s at a disadvantage to the point where I think they could do with a little reservation of its own!
This, in general is my basis for disagreeing with the policy of reservation. Right now reservation is being provided along inappropriate vectors. The cross-section of people that need help is not automatically and simply SC/ST/OBC.
Reservation needs to be abolished in favor of instituting measures that will ensure inculcation of ability to compete in the weakest citizens of India. The government needs to define ‘weak’, and implement what’s needed to improve the ability to compete for them.
But of course, it will not happen. Democracy is rule of the populus. The politicians are helping the citizenry see themselves along the [SC/ST/OBC] vs. non division. Along this divide, the clear majority is SCSTOBC. Right now the ruckus is about reservation close to 50%. Tomorrow it can be for a full 100%. And why not? Its a democracy.
If you think I’m smoking something, think again (perhaps I’m drinking something :)) Sorry – think again because the Indian politician today is argueably at a nadir without equal. Check out this interview of Arjun Singh, the Congress Minister for Human Resources Development who’s responsible for getting this latest thing started. Whether you oppose reservation or not, you’ve got to admit, this guy’s pure unadultrated crap who’s unfit to take any action on reservation. http://www.ibnlive.com/news/devils-advocate-arjun-singh/11063-4-single.html
BTW, given the deal with democracy, the non SCSTOBCs need to organize taking a leaf from their opposition’s playbook. SCSTOBCs do vote in numbers, and the nons have begin to do the same. For all their intelligence, they still haven’t gotten their act together, not to mention the last 16 yrs since Mandal reservations that have gone idlly by without political/public opinion movement and organizing on part of the nons.
And you know the real fun will begin shortly when the government begins to force private companies to provide reservation for SCSTOBC in hiring and promotion. The Govt had given 2 yrs time for private sector to ‘think’ about it. Now its going to implement it since the private sector hasn’t made a move by itself in that direction.
Kumar N said ” IndianoGuy commented about his SC friend working in an IT company now, and if he was not educated through the reservation system,this would have never happened. Great ! This is exactly what the policy aims to achieve. So, thanks to quota system, today, IndianoGuy and his friend both are in the same economic and social class. And yet, some years later, IndianoGuy’s daughter has to score over 95% in an entrance exam for a professional or higher education, while his friend’s daughter has to score only the qualifying marks. What’s more, IndianoGuy has to bear the cost of education for his daughter, where as the Govt. would fund the cost of education for his friend’s daughter.”
Kumar, I still support Reservations, I strongly feel that the reservations must continue for another 30-50 years, till the caste system becomes irrelavent. For most people living in Indian cities caste is not relevent, but if you go to any village in India, caste is the most important thing. If dalits were left to suffer for thousands of years, I wouldnt mind couple of generations from upper castes suffering for lets say hundred years. As the saying goes “YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW”. In the case of Caste discrimination we are suffering because of the deeds of our fore fathers. May be its bad karma as Abhi said.
Q 1) if a SC/ST person gets reservation , becomes IAS then he is rich and he has power . now what about his childrens ? why should they also get reservation ?
Q 2) who told the supporters of reservation that only SC/ST needs help/reservation and all high caste people are rich and powerfull ?
Q3) why should the passing marks and other criterias should be set lower for SC/ST people ? Is government assuming here that they are mentally weak ? when they are getting reservation , at least the criteria should be same.
The government is not applying reservation for any reason other than that they want cheap publicity and vote . Instead of giving support and basic infrastructure to poors (include SC/ST and others of all relegion) they are just redistributing the poverty . It is a stunt to gain vote .similar to rural gurantee scheme. just plain redistribution of poverty . when even the present number of seats reserved for SC/St are unoccupied , why increase seats .
Instead of increasing reservation government should provide basic education to weaker section of society . also it is more important to see that after giving money and support , the scheme are properly implemented . The situation of government schools , hospitals etc . is already pathetic .
Wow. You should blog about “Indian” issues. Check out the large number of comments you get.
doesn’t this process seem counterintuitive then? isn’t this just reinforcing the idea of caste?
Ha ha I can be so funny at times! (not! I can mis-spell at times) – “Democracy is rule of the populus.” Please read “Democracy is rule of the populous.”
Wow. What an insipid comment about comments. If we REALLY wanted “large”, we could just blog about Kaavya (564 comments), relationships/marriage (440), sexual violence in the SA community (267) or beauty and skincare (213). So, if we were comment-sluts, there’s plenty of other ways to “get some” besides “Indian” issues, thanks.
“Caste” is an artificial construct. Genetically, there is no such thing.
I love it when people who know nothing speak with such authority.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15232732&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11381027&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum
Note that “Asian” in this data set means something different from “East Asian”. The point however is that there are highly nontrivial differences in genome content between caste groups.
…as for the rest of this thread, it’s not worth the time. but anand, you’re right about the underlying dynamic. Read Amy Chua if you haven’t already. And see ya at gnxp, perhaps, if you’re not already there.
Can either of you cite something for these claims? As an outsider who has heard–as recently as yesterday–stories about caste-related bias within the past 30-40 years, it’s hard for me to swallow these ideas without some attribution. There must be some middle ground between applying 19th century European ideas about caste and denying that it exists as a facet of society.
gc:
ever dated outside your own caste or race? or do you require the genotype to be mailed beforehand to wean out the incompatibles.
gc, i’m not a statistics maven, but two studies from the same school with sample sizes of 265 men and 200 people respectively don’t seem to be all that convincing for a region–including the other countries–with almost 2 billion people, innumerable regions, several religions–some of whom may have taken up some of the population of the castes that are being studied–and numerous different kinds of social systems (including different manifestations of what “caste” means). Further, there’s a huge jump from arguing that there are genetic markers that separate caste to arguing that these have some social meaning. Your ringing endorsement of Anand, despite jumps in logic like the one highlighted below, doesn’t exactly speak highly of you:
The only thing worse than someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about spouting off is someone who knows a little trying to cow everyone else into submission in order to perpetuate an ideology of oppression 😉
The problem with the argument is this – in most of the countries mentioned above (I am not sure why Maldives is here), the migrants were from the regions/parts of the subcontinent which are within the boundaries of modern India (Uttar Pradesh/Haryana/Bihar,Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Maharashtra and Gujarat). The exceptions may be Sindhis. Most of the people as far as I know consider India as the land of forefathers. As far as I know they don’t identify themselves as people of South Asian origin. Also the Indian government is the one who deals with the diaspora relations for peoples in Trinidad, Guyana, Mauritius, Fiji, Malaysia, Singapore etc. I have friends/relatives/acquintances in Australia, UK and South Africa and they consider themselves as people of Indian origin and not South Asia.
This South Asia business is mostly a North American phenomenon and an affliction of second-generation ABD’s influenced by SAJA and Prashad/Vinay Lal etc leftist cabal.
Who? When I was in elementry school I had never heard of SAJA or Prashad or Lal. That is when my “afflicition” began. You continue to demonstrate your ignorance. Let the issue go.
Obviously there are different ways to look at this–sociologically, through self-identification of people today or their ancestors who arrived in diasporic countries, through cultural traits like language religion or customs, through biological ancestry, etc. It’s not that one is inherently better than the others but that they reveal different information that serve different ends–that’s why people can argue about this endlessly. My point is simply that there are people with South Asian blood or cultural ties in Trinidad, Guyana, and many other countries, not just in the U.S., Canada, and other rich countries.
AMFD AKA Spoorlam
Can you be clear? Where you in the conference or in school when the incident happened? Why shouldn’t a group of Indian students come and object to things that may have been misrepresented. Most of of us were not there and why should we accept your version of events? Do we need to accecpt HRW as the mother church and what it says as Gospel? HRW is just a lackey for the State Dept and pursues the agenda of pursuing American power by other means. And, finally the conference was on racism and xenophobia – Dalits don’t fit the agenda – they are not of a different race nor are they foreigners in India. That is the reason that the Indian govt objected and despite the efforts of HRW, the leftists, the Dalitistan gang and their Christian missionary supporters, everybody agreed this was the case.
Also, AMFD AKA Spoorlam – FYI – in most states the rule is for the police to identify any acts of discrimination/viloence against the Dalits as it is the law as the police officers job will be in jeopardy. There are exceptions in some Northern states and rural areas.
PS: This is not to condone the discrimination against the dalits/tribal people. India needs to do a lot more in this regard. But a lot of these problems are also become of how the economy is structured and the population pressures. So many people going after so few resources will lead to exploitation, the only thing is instead of caste it may be by some other classification.
Abhi,
I know it is your blog and your prerogative on what you allow to be discussed. And since it is your blog you can define what your audience is. But as far as I know, I stand by the contention, that South Asianitis is a North American phenomenon. And I consider myself an American citizen of Indian origin.
Abhi wrote.. <>
Perhaps there is something about these statements that are worth looking at again. The first one is insular.But the second one…Don’t you think your mother brought it up beacuse she wanted your opinion? She must have thought you, who went to a US school that is in the forefront of affirmative action, would be curious about the Indian version of affirmative action.
I know i may sound like a broken record, but why this conscious effort to disassociate yourself from India? It mystifies me…..this writing about Indianness without writng about India…
As an example, all newpapers carry the same news. But we choose some because they offer a fresh prespective. With SM you have a wonderful tool to tell us what you really think about your culture (and that means talking/writing about India/Pakistan/B’desh/Sri Lanka).
Neale
oops…the 2 sentences in Abhi’s post i was referring to are: <>
Neale
lets try this again 🙂 Abhi’s post were to the effect..
1.I wasn’t gpoing to blog about the Indian issue because it does not affect me In any way 2. My mom got to talking about it and we entered into a discussion.
Neale
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this. The whole reservation issue is burning just in the North Indian states. Ever wondered why?
In Tamil Nadu for example, we already have 69% reservation. In some cases this could go upto 90% (Children on war heros, special considerations, overseas refugees, exchange programs etc..). In the south of India, the number of Engineering colleges are much greater than the north of India. Even if you bring reservation to 99% you will still have seats for everbody. Everybody, regardless of caste, has to meet a high school percentage requirement to appear for the Common Admission Test (CET).
As a Syrian Christian, the constitution labels me as an forward caste (FC), so no reservations for us. If you are a Dalit (SC) or any backward caste and if you convert to Christianity, you becaome FC on government papers. If you convert to Sikh or Buddist, you remain SC or OBC. There are a lot of FCs now who want to be SCs because of the benifits.
hindutvavadi in California > re #139, perhaps for you. As a Sri Lankan-descended Australian, I can attest to the fact that a pan-South Asian identity is alive and well down here, born of cultural similarities between the nationalities invovled and the the similarities between diaspora experiences: whether as desis, “curries” or South Asians. This doesn’t negate the uniqueness of each experience or the origins of those from different groups.
Wow. Way to jump on a commenter, A N N A- I think “casual observer” was just trying to encourage Abhi to blog on more Indian issues such as this because this topic is generating a lot of intelligent discussion and interest from SM readers. Great post, Abhi.
I love it when people have absolutely no idea about the educational background of other people yet assume that the latter “knows nothing” when discussing a certain topic if it contradicts their own stance. Unfortunately (for such people), my knowledge of the biomedical sciences and genetics may be a little more substantial than they think, and the various genetics-related articles that have been posted here are not only easy for me to understand, they do not “go over my head” in the slightest (giving people the benefit of the doubt, I’m assuming that the intention wasn’t to post jargon-heavy articles in the hope that the opposing party wouldn’t be able to counterargue due to lack of comprehension of the subject matter and its related terminology). I could in fact reverse this and imply that people copying & pasting such articles have themselves not understood the broader scope of what these research papers are actually saying.
There is obviously going to be a greater degree of commonality within members of certain groups if they have only married and reproduced amongst themselves for an extended period.
Whether one can extrapolate this to a distinct genetic group analogous to race is, however, another matter. Using some examples, is there any such thing as a Californian “race” ? For a long time, people in towns, villages, and cities in the West rarely migrated outside of their locality and married only amongst themselves; would it therefore be appropriate to classify such individuals into “actual” races constituting human sub-groups/sub-divisions, even if we use the term “caste” instead ? What about people who live in — and are from — outside India; why not analyse, subdivide, and classify them into “castes” too ? After all, historically members of the European aristocracy only married amongst themselves (were they therefore genetically predisposed to rule due to higher IQ ? Can you broadly classify them as a single genetic group, considering the rate of intermarriage and reproduction they demonstrated, and often still demonstrate today ?).
In the present day out here in the West, doctors often marry other doctors, the wealthy often marry people of similar financial status, people from less advantaged strata of society end up marrying and having children with people from a similar background, and so on. I’m talking about the Western population as a whole here, not just South Asians. Perhaps we should extrapolate the “Indian system of caste classification” to the entire planet.
Hell, we can even apply this hypothesis to the Indian subcontinent’s own history. For nearly 800 of the last 1000 years, large swathes of Indian society were ruled by Muslims, especially those of foreign descent (to some degree or another). So does this mean that individuals of Mughal, Persian, Afghan, and Arab background/ancestry were genetically predisposed to be at the top of the pile due to their “higher IQ” ? Did converts who married someone from the aforementioned groups therefore have children with “increased” IQ ? Really ?
Were the British able to dominate the entire subcontinent for 200 years (despite being relatively small in numbers compared to the millions of Indians they were surrounded by) due to inherently superior intelligence ?
How far do we want to go with this ? Perhaps we should do some studies and find out…..
Just want to echo that I think it’s brave for Abhi, and others, to talk so frankly about their experiences with caste on personal basis too — and just call it for what it is — that many so-called progressive and educated people, even today, subtly or openly talk about how better they are then everyone else — and subtly act on these ideas too. And all those samajs out there, some of which have a “secret society” like operating status (I swear I saw someone who advocates on bone marrow donations in the S. Asian commuinity write about how he was disinvited from speaking at some BSNA or similar event at the last minute – for very vague reasons, about focusing audience dynamics or something maybe — shady). And the comments from some of the youngsters on how they’re proud to be b… yeah, proud for 3000 years of oppressing others, dividing Indian society, and Machhiavellian machinations from behind the scenes? Sure.
To just throw in another thing, don’t know much about all this genetic business, but realistically… those of you who believe there are any pure peoples in India, c’mon… do you really think extramarital affairs, forced assault, abuse, etc. never happened for so many years? You can arrange the marriage, but you can’t arrange who the real daddy is ooops Even today doubtful parentage is more apparent with DNA testing na…
AMFD AKA Spoorlam
I am not Spoorlam. I have been coming to SM from the time this blog was a few months old and I dont need an alias to make a point. So please drop this silly obsession of yours.
Anand,
If that’s the case, let’s hope that people from a lower-caste background don’t continue any notions of thinking in terms of caste themselves if social, cultural and political power eventually “transfers” predominantly to them. Despite certain stereotypes, the “class” system is certainly far less prevalent here in the UK than it used to be once power genuinely began slipping from the aristocracy’s hands during the last century.
I don’t know if you’re just joking, but I hope you realise how grossly offensive this statement is with regards to the implications of your perspective on lower-caste people.
Once more, the righteous truth is exposed and PseudoSecular Mutiny quakes in their sandals!
Hindutvadi in California is speaking the unvarnished truth and soon the California Shool Governers will repent and weep before our power too if this warrior can be unleashed without anti-nationals slandering him!
This designation of ‘South Asian’ is a direct conspiracy fostered by nefarious left wing cabal to emasculate India and Hindus and turn us all into eunuchs. It is so great that brothers like Hindutvadi in Califonia and other titans of Hinduism see through this conspiracy and reclaim our testicles from this cabal, who are leftist and determined to steal our scrotums.
But Hindu testicles cannot be stolen so easily any more. After 20 million years of rape by Abrahamics and Arundhati Roy, Hindus shall be eunuchs no longer.
We have balls, and we are determined to show them, and neutering us by calling ‘South Asian’ will not work again.
Leftists shall steal our balls no more. Our balls belong to us. Our balls are saffron. We are not ashamed of them. And Pakistan shall tremble in fear when they see our balls, which are now nuclear powered, with IT outsourcing power as well.
Some questions to the so called ‘inclusive’ ‘South Asians’ who run PseudoSecular Mutiny:
Who funds you!?
Pakistan!?
Leftist Cabal!?
Wendy Doniger!?
Tell me!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I WARN YOU
Stop hypnotising young Indians with fun!
Stop distracting them from Hindutvadi textbooks in California!
Stop oppressing Indians with ‘inclusiveness’!
Stop conspiracy and mafia cabal to destroy and oppress Hindus!
Answer this question, PseudoSecular Mutiny (or should I say, ‘Leftist-Cabal-Conspiracy-to-Destroy-India-Mutiny’)
*Why are you leftist mafia shitting on me?!
Stop persecuting me!
I demand!
And don’t hypnotise Indian American youths!
Or I’ll be angry!
Give me my balls back!
Hail Mogambo!