Over the tipline we are often asked by Indians living in India why we (as individuals) don’t blog more about certain Indian issues (especially those dominating the Indian media). The simple answer is that you most likely wouldn’t want to read what we have to say about many Indian issues. We aren’t Indian nationals, we all reside in North America, and we are all U.S citizens (except for our current guest blogger who runs our Canadian operations). This means that our opinions, at best, would provide some with a broader perspective on a given topic, and at worst could come across as ignorant or ill-informed. There are better places to read about Indian issues if that is what you are looking for. And yet, those of us who write for SM have definitely felt some resentment at times from parts of the Indian blogosphere, both when we blog an “Indian issue,” and when we don’t.
I know that the current hot topic in the Indian media is the battle over a quota system in Indian universities. I wasn’t going to write a post about it because the Indian educational system doesn’t affect me in any way. However, my mom mentioned the debate to me over the phone and we got to discussing it. I realized how similar and how different the debate in India is as compared to the affirmative action debate in the U.S. Being a graduate of the University of Michigan, the central battlefield for affirmative action in the U.S., I have some definite opinions on the subject and am generally in favor of affirmative action and the type of educational environment it leads to when implemented and executed properly.
My mom opined that she kind of supported the protestors in India. I pressed my mom on the matter a bit since I am more inclined to support a quota system of some kind. What about 3000 years of class oppression? You can’t just erase that with pithy protest slogans like:
DON’T MIX POLITICS WITH MERIT; QUOTAS: THIS CURE IS WORSE THAN THE DISEASE; MERIT IS MY CASTE, WHAT’S YOURS?… [Link]
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p>Time Magazine Asia breaks down the central arguments in the debate:
“Modern India should be built on merit, not caste,” says Dr. Sudip Sen, 34, a Ph.D. student in biochemistry at AIIMS. “What’s next — are we going to let a slow runner represent India in the Olympics? No, we are going to send our best runner out for the 100 meters, no matter his caste. It should be the same for all fields.”
Countless other Indian medical workers who have gone on strike this week feel much the same as Sen, which is why India’s sudden battle over affirmative action makes the ongoing divide in the U.S. over racial preferences seem tame by comparison. Public hospitals across the country have shut their doors to all but emergency services; private hospitals in some Delhi suburbs are following suit; trade unions have called for a morning of civil disobedience; and students at India’s elite business schools are meeting to plan their own protests. In spite of the disruption, the government has sworn that it will not back down, regardless of who resigns or how many protest. Increased quotas, it claims, are the only way to foster social equality at the institutions that are driving the Indian economy forward.
That fast-growing economy often makes it easy to forget India’s rigidly stratified past. But any country hurtling along the path to modernization is at risk of being occasionally slowed down by the weight of its own history, and in this case, India has been yanked to a crawl by 3,000 years of a strictly codified social pecking order. [Link]
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The underlying argument in support of affirmative action in India, as well as in this country, is that even though the system is “pretty good” today, you can’t just set aside injustices of the past as if they stopped having any effect on the present. In a perfect world everyone would advance only on their merits. The world has never been perfect though. Sometimes two wrongs is the only way to do right, especially given that family wealth has a way of passing from generation to generation, thereby maintaining social and class divides, and often strengthening them.
Unlike race or class, caste is not something that can be read in the color of one’s skin or in the cut of one’s clothes. Caste is written in a far more nuanced language of family name, livelihood, origin and identity politics; yet it is an issue that has managed to polarize the nation. Urban Indians, increasingly categorized by wealth, say that caste has no bearing on the kind of jobs they can get, yet classified matrimonial ads often list caste as a principal criterion in the search for a suitable spouse. In the countryside, caste defines not just social status and employment opportunities, but also access to education. [Link]
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p>Even having been born in America I can easily see the subtle ways that the unofficial caste system has been kept alive in the thoughts and attitudes of many Indian Americans. Caste was not left behind in India but rather came to America like a stowaway rat aboard a ship, and like a rat it does most of its business in the dark corners of the room. As I kept talking on the phone with my mom I realized what was driving my opposition to her support, albeit lukewarm, of the protesting doctors and students. I wanted revenge. I wanted revenge for all the ignorant comments I had heard about “Untouchables” on my trips to India. I wanted revenge against all the people that think being part of the Brahmin-caste actually means something, or is worth mentioning in casual conversation. I wanted the students to continue their hunger strike and I wanted them to ultimately capitulate. I feel bad for them and feel it is unfair that they should have to shoulder the brunt of Indian history, but even society has a collective karma. As many know well, bad karma cannot be protested away and doesn’t care about hunger strikes. It must be worked off, often through the suffering of those that appear to be innocent. Maybe it is a good thing that there is no easy solution to this conflict.
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p>The final decisions will likely be driven by politics anyway. India’s voting poor outnumber the voting middle-class and the rich:
“It is ridiculous to think that those protesting the reservation system are elitists intent on maintaining their superiority and that those who support them are representing the people,” says Andre Beteille, a Delhi University professor and scholar of social inequity in India. “This situation is not about caste, it’s about politics.” Cynics echo that view, pointing out that the lower castes who would benefit from the reforms are one of the most active voting blocs in state elections. [Link]
See related post: Americans love their Indian reservations
abhi,
As I kept talking on the phone with my mom I realized what was driving my opposition to her support, albeit lukewarm, of the protesting doctors and students. I wanted revenge. I wanted revenge for all the ignorant comments I had heard about “Untouchables” on my trips to India. I wanted revenge against all the people that think being part of the Brahmin-caste actually means something, or is worth mentioning in casual conversation. I wanted the students to continue their hunger strike and I wanted them to ultimately capitulate. I feel bad for them and feel it is unfair that they should have to shoulder the brunt of Indian history, but even society has a collective karma.
Well said.. I share your sentiments.. 🙂
It is funny to hear the arguments about “Merit” bandied all over.. With OBCs/SC/STs forming the major vote block in the one-man / one-vote democracy, they are bound to frame rules after a while after they get politically organized as you can see happening.. When Muslims ruled they had (more or less) all positions of power in academia/politics/arts etc.. Same case when the Whites (Brits) ruled.. And now it’s the case of the OBCs/SCs/STs..
I see the “Abandon caste / respect merit” banners in the anti-reservation protestors.. Fair enough.. They should apply the same principles when they get married. Intra-caste marriages is the system through which “caste system by birth” continues for generations.. They ahould all go for inter-caste marriages so that these kinds of problems won’t happen in the future..
:-))
Abhi, as Kumar and other commenters have pointed out, this is cynical vote bank politics being played out. Nothing more, nothing less. Regarding your observation about the “untouchable” comments, I have lived about 26 years of my life in India, have witnessed the condition of tribals, dalits and other lower castes first hand, but I’ve never heard anyone say that word (not even the most bigoted). Mind you, I spent the first twenty years of my life in Koraput district of Orissa, a tribal majority district.
Caste equations are far more complicated than Time magazine and its incompetent reports, a la the moronic Alex Perry, would have you believe. Reservations for SCs/STs have existed almost from the time the constitution was enshrined. These reservations are all about OBCs, in the process reducing the whole social justice issue to a numbers game. Also, contrary to what our misguided friend Indianoguy would have us believe, not all of the protesters are “privileged urban” upper castes. And please note that most upper caste people accept the need for affirmative action, may be some of them do so grudgingly, but they accept it all the same.
It is funny to hear the arguments about “Merit” bandied all over.. With OBCs/SC/STs forming the major vote block in the one-man / one-vote democracy, they are bound to frame rules after a while after they get politically organized as you can see happening..
Exactly, and of course that is most obvious to any Indian observer. Doesn’t make it right though, does it? Of course, merit should count for something, what’s wrong in saying that? Just as we have to recognise the need for affirmative action, we have to remove PC blinkers and see the truth there.
. Doesn’t make it right though, does it? Of course, merit should count for something, what’s wrong in saying that? Just as we have to recognise the need for affirmative action, we have to remove PC blinkers and see the truth there.
Don’t know if you saw the next paragraph
“..I see the “Abandon caste / respect merit” banners in the anti-reservation protestors.. Fair enough.. They should apply the same principles when they get married. Intra-caste marriages is the system through which “caste system by birth” continues for generations.. They ahould all go for inter-caste marriages so that these kinds of problems won’t happen in the future..”
What do you think about this solution??
the problem is the construction of the “OBC” category. i doubt there’s much interest in india in rolling back reservations for “SC/ST” (Harijans/Dalits). these have been in place for a long time and i daresay they are still necessary and useful. no one is seriously advocating changing that.
the lingering question has always been whether some kind of preferential treatment is necessary and/or useful for the people who find themselves “just above” the cut-off for the original reservation system. the lower-lower-lower-lower-middle, if you will.
and there’s no good answer, because the extent to which people in that category have their options cut off specifically by caste/ethnic identification DIFFERS by state, city, village. because caste in india is still very real, but at the same time is still very fluid and ambiguous, as it has always been through history.
so, two people who come from different places and who have the same caste identification may well face completely different sets of opportunities and restrictions as a result of that identification. or on the other hand, they might have caste-related obstacles in common. it all depends.
obviously, a top-down, nationally defined system of categories doesn’t do a good job reflecting this kind of reality. for every “valid” OBC claim, you’re likely to find one that is “invalid.” perhaps you could do an analysis that says that the valid claims will far outnumber the invalid ones, and therefore (karma and all that) the scheme is on balance a good one; or you could do an analysis that says the opposite, and therefore that the scheme should be scrapped. then you’ll get into debates about assumptions, anecdotes turned into generalities, etc., and we’ll never see the end of it.
this is the exact same debate as took place in the late 1980s when the v.p. singh government implemented the original mandal commission findings. we’re again arguing over the same questions and using the same ill-fitting, bureaucratic, terminology of “Other Backward Classes.” there’s a long-standing and ultimately purposive eliding of meaning at work here, between classes and castes and ethnicity. it suits everyone to keep it ambiguous, because then you can stake a claim. but the other reason is that everyone knows that deep prejudice and discrimination still exist in indian society, but nobody with any intellectual honesty has found a simple clear and concise way to identify it for policy purposes.
in this context all this talk of “merit” is a complete red herring. of course it conveys the anxiety of the medical student et al., who worry that the already small number of spots is going to get even smaller. i feel their pain, but that’s not what this debate is really about. the politicians will manipulate and sacrifice those students, or their OBC “competitors,” in a second.
what’s really happening here is that caste is performing the function it’s always performed in indian society, which is the same as what anthropologists call ethnicity. unlike “race,” which is generally an externally imposed construct, ethnicity is how people self-identify as members of groups, and political and social anthropology teaches that ethnicity is constructed, i.e. people’s ethnic identification evolves over time and in function of opportunities.
when you see people trying to shoehorn themselves into the new categories, suddenly “discover” themselves as OBCs and the like, you’re just watching the age-old process of the invention and re-invention of identity. it’s just that this is a particularly visible and crude example.
in view of all this, the OBC concept is deeply problematic, and throwing it out in favor of the staus quo is deeply problematic as well. to my mind the only coherent way to better adapt opportunities and support to real, not theoretical, patterns of entrenched discrimination, is by massive decentralization of the problem, so that the resources exist and the decisions operate at the local and not central/federal level. fixing discrimination is possible but in a huge and ambiguous country like india it really needs to happen at the state and district level, not at the Centre.
apologies for the long comment.
peace
Several pertinent issues not dealt with in the discussion so far.
Michigan Affirmative Action case was regarding State University. Private Universities were not included (Correct me if I am wrong)
After 93rd amendment, in India, the government is the sole provider of higher education. This is effectively “Licence-Raj” for education.
The central issue for strikinf students is the quota for the so-called OBCs (Other Backward Castes). The definition of who is in OBC is totally upto government and the electoral politics decides who gets included into the OBC. For example, Yadavs are the most powerful (politically) group in Bihar and with highest land ownership, but they are still included in OBC.
True need for Affirmative action is to the historically oppressed classes in India. NO Question about it. They must be helped to undo the injustice of millenia, but OBC business is totally electoral politics.
Another point, in the North-West and North where the total percentage of people who dont get included in any quota is higher than other parts. As a result there is more reaction in those parts.
Tashie,
My point was specifically in relation to the previous comments about IQ having any bearing with caste. I did not comment on the social ramifications of the system, especially with regards to the suggested connection between caste and financial/educational status.
Ponniyin Selvan,
They should probably amend their thinking or approach w.r.t the selection of potential spouses so that the caste of the person concerned is irrelevant in their assessment of suitability, rather than specifically using/targetting “intercaste” marriage partners solely to eliminate the caste system. Of course parental objections may also be a hurdle to overcome in this issue.
Clarification: In the sense of IQ having any connection whatsoever to caste, or caste being a factor in the person’s IQ.
Abhi, dude I think I need to chime in here.
The big issue is not that affirmative action is required. Everyone understands and appreciates the fact that a large percentage of the population can never reach their full potential, merely because they have been marginalized socially and economically. Instead, the point is that affirmative action, implemented via reservations is not the optimal solution. In fact it is nowhere close to being the optimal solution.
Firstly, I agree with Kumar N that it lumps OBCs with the really traditionally opressed scheduled castes/tribes in the same dialogue – which does not help since many of the OBCs are more socially and economically forward and will reap the benefits of reservation while the truly unpriviledged stand back and watch.
Secondly, it does not help the very same students who come in through reservations, especially in the most hypercompetitive colleges. These students typically lag behind the rest of the class since most of these colleges place the bar of admissions very very high. Many of the students that come in via quotas do badly, require more than 4 years to graduate and end up without jobs – aside from the ‘reserved’ jobs.
Thirdly, I have trouble with the notion of historical debt. Who pays for it? The progressive middle-classes who are liberal and squirm at the notion of caste? Seventeen year old city kids who have never distinguished their classmates as being from one caste or the other? Yet they see their peers, with comparable grades and advantages move into colleges that they cannot aspire to — merely because they are ‘unprivileged’ on paper.
Reservations, not affirmative action, are unconstitutional since they clearly violate the principle of equal rights. Affirmative action well implemented would help provide education at the primary and secondary level, identify potentially smart students, nurture them and then prepare them for the free-market economy. Reservations are a crutch that last only from college to a cushy reserved government job. And they don’t help the most marginalized who remain illiterate for the rest of their lives. It tends to help middle-class urban who identify themselves as OBC/SC/ST merely so that they can get into a college otherwise out of their reach in simple terms of merit.
As such, reservations incentivize mediocrity.
Those who enjoy privileged position in society. ISnt it obvious. Unless if someone denies that there is a priviledged class and a marginalized class in India.
I grew up in India. Caste is a reality in everyone’s life. You cant run away from it.
Thats because the kid has been sheltered and has no idea how the real world works.
Castes are indeed dfiferetntiated by genetics. Take a look at this finding: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11381027
Also, most Indians realize that darker skinned people are more common in lower castes than in higher castes.
Anand,
If there was a noticeable stratification in terms of skin colour/”European” appearance from the higher castes to the lower castes, with no “exceptions” within each caste, then this would possibly be a valid point. However, considering that there are very often dark people who belong to the higher castes — and vice versa — the idea of using caste as a possible variable in IQ is more than a little misguided. I’m sure I don’t need to comment on the insinuation, however well-intentioned, that darker people have lower levels of intelligence. I would expect that standard of living, level of education received, and standard of nutrition are far more important in defining intelligence, although of course there is some genetic component too w.r.t parental intelligence and the subsequent impact on their children.
I agree that lighter people tend to be more prevalent amongst the so-called higher castes, but there is too much heterogeneity within each caste for castes to be regarded as some kind of “uniform group”.
And before anyone else here on SM accuses me of having a chip on my shoulder or some kind of vested interest, let me state that I am from the lighter-skinned/”European”/Iranian end of the spectrum and, in terms of my ancestry, my caste background is also at the “higher” extreme.
I would suggest that academic performance in a “level playing field” scenario would be a better indicator of intelligence — and, for those of us living in the West, we all know people from so-called “lower” castes here who perform absolutely brilliantly and, often, better than those from so-called “higher” castes.
Jai
The genetic differences exist between castes on a population level; sure there is overlap but that exists even between races such as blacks and whites. That doesnt change the fact that there is significant genetic differentiation between lower and upper castes that are consistent and are accompanied by a gradient of increasing caucasoid genetic heritage the further north and west you go and the further up the caste systm you go. There is indeed overlap with many black brahmins and occasional (though rare) pink skinned chooras, however for the most part it is not too hard to make good guesses by looking at indians to choose “brahmin” or “choora” I understand this would be different in southern India because from what I have seen, southern Indians are virtually all ( > 95%) black skinned regardless of caste. Anyway, my point is not to paint brahmins from the northwest as some sort of super indians but to merely point out that there are significant genetic differences between the castes in India and races in America. We need to be mature enough to accept the possibility that there there may be a heavy genetic component to intelligence and that the component may not be of equal proportions in races and castes.
We need to be mature enough to accept the possibility that there there may be a heavy genetic component to intelligence and that the component may not be of equal proportions in races and castes.
I think the South Indian upper Shudra castes -Reddys, Nairs, Vokaligas, Chettiars, etc, – are generally more intelligent than the so-called northern upper “dwija” castes. And they are doing far better than the BIMARU Bhats and Pandeys and Jats.
RC, with respect to your comment #56 I am assuming you are anti-reservation but nevertheless disagree with my point about historical debt.
So does everyone pay equally? If not, in what measure then? No one is denying the existence of marginalization. Those who enjoy privilege is such an encompassing statement. Where are the shades in that? What about the reports of feudal OBCs in UP oppressing the marginalized Dalits? Should they restitute more of the debt? Or less? And how far back do we go in time? To the middle ages? To the first century BC? Who opressed whom and at what time is not an easy equation to figure out.
So did I. Did they ask you for your caste when you went into primary school? Or junior school? And did you shun your classmates just because they were from a different caste? I have never encountered the caste question anywhere, except perhaps in matrimonial columns.
As opposed to the kid that is sheltered and has no idea how the real world works and is fortunate to belong to the OBC category by some quirk of ancestry? Or is it because it is a good thing to expose kids to the reality that the country perpetuates a perverse notion of what equal opportunity really is?
I did my B.Tech from one of the top engineering colleges in India. We had 25% reservation for SC/ST candidates. The disturbing thing was the fact that most of the “reserved” seats were taken by candidates who did not need/deserve any reservation. They were from well-to-do middle class families..with a good amount of disposable income. They had been educated in good schools, had access to all the facilities (both educational or otherwise) etc. These are not the kind of people who should benefit for reservation. There are numerous other well-deserving candidates for reservations (students from lower income group, villages or small cities, under-represented communities etc). We had some ‘cinderella’ stories in our campus.. an engineering student who benefited from reservation (his father was a gardener in our institute). But these kind of stories were more of an exception than a rule. Most of the students who benefited from reservation policy were “rich kids” with sports bikes and computers and other stuff that was not that common among the student community. These guys were exempt from paying any kind of tuition fee and hostel lodging fee, and had a lot of disposable cash at hand. The majority of people who benefit from reservations fall into this category.
I’m not against the policy of reservation..in fact I’m in favour of 50% reservation for the people who genuinely need it.
OK.
Anand, your comments on this thread have been specious at best and downright bigoted at worst. The scientific study abstract you posted simply argues that lighter skinned people constructed a social hierarchy system that favored lighter skinned people. Whether this is true or not, it in no way lends any support to your claim that there exist inherent “genetic” differences between castes.
In other words, you are wrong even if we take you on your own terms. Which we needn’t do, because they are abhorrent.
Therefore, kindly refrain.
Everyone: Please don’t feed the trolls.
Peace
I have never encountered the caste question anywhere, except perhaps in matrimonial columns.
But isnt this exactly where it matters most? The so-called upper castes claim that Mandal is perpetuating caste, but its not as though they were intermarrying with Shudras and Dalits in high numbers before Mandal. Ambedkar felt that the only way to end caste (in the last analysis) was intermarriage. So until then caste will matter and matter big.
RI,
Agreed. But I dont see how that is pertinent to the topic of caste-based reservations. Note that I am all in favour of affirmative action, but against reservations as they are currently being implemented.
Regarding the marriage question, as long as we let sites like shaadi.com ask us for our castes, and as long as we let auntie-jis everywhere engineer machiavellian machinations and post such bigoted matrimonials, there will never be integration. Rise against the auntie-hood! Or perhaps we should have the government impose that 50% of all marriages be intercaste 🙂 Centralized Big-Government Auntie-hood, anyone?
of course there are some genetic differences between indians. there are south indians who are very fair and north indians who are very dark and vice versa. india is a land of contrasts and differences and upside down expectations. but to correlate genetic differences with intelligence and/or a color gradient (not sure if that was what was being implied)?
incidentally, dark-skinned Kenya has a higher literacy rate than most Indian states, including the northwestern ones and J&K and Kerala has the higheset literacy rate in india. can literacy rates be correlated to IQ?
and color is not always a good indicator of genetics. i think a study of brazilians found that fair-skinned brazilians who looked white on the outside had more non-white genes in them than darker-skinned brazilians who had a higher proportion of “caucasian” genes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2585553.stm
Whose God: You bring up an important point. There are differences between gene frequencies between racial groups. However, not all of these genes are outwardly visible. Because of interracial mating and independent inheritance of genes, you can indeed have a dark skinned person with a flat nose and nappy hair have a more caucasoid overall genetic profile than a fair skinned person with a sharp nose and blond hair. However, on a population basis, lighter skinned european populations will have a more caucasian genetic background. It the laws of probability.
Sidarth and risible: I am not implying that darker indians are neceaasrily dumber than lighter indians because on an individual basis, genes that control for IQ are not linked to those that control for skin color. However, what I was pointing out is that upper castes ARE genetically distinct from lower castes on a population basis. That means that on average, upper castes, especially from the North West, possess a more distinctly caucasoid (not necessarily European) genetic profile than do lower castes. Skin color is just an obvious trait to highlight this different profile. I am suggesting that since there IS a difference in genetic ancestry and that since there IS a genetic component to IQ, it would be silly to pretend that this genetic component to IQ is necessarily distributed in absolutely the same proportions among different castes.
1) hmmm… so if these OBC reservations are simply a ruse to get more votes, then this should be an easy problem to solve.
the greeks (who allegedly were the first ones to practice democracy) said that democracy only works if the populace is educated. so what if we disenfranchised the non-educated people in india? wouldn’t that solve the problem? would any government be trying this tactic (OBC reservations at IIT) to gain more votes?
2) seriously. using this rule, we could disenfranchise the entire state of bihar. would any SM-ers or SM-groupies be really upset by this? wouldn’t they be popping champagne bottles at the home office in north dakota? for that matter, would anybody be upset by this?
3) taking this a step further, if we did this in america, and only allowed people on the coasts (and maybe chicago, and a few college towns like austin and santa fe) to vote, wouldn’t the democrats win every time.
ok, i think a few hi-fives are in order. spread the love.
First off, why is the big solution for correcting latent caste biases almost always quota-based? I know catering to vote banks (in a clear and obvious way) might be why. (Often real solutions are a bit more subtle na… but we digress)
In terms of helping disadvantaged groups get into top schools, why couldn’t an army of government-sponsored Educational Consultants be deployed? IITWise, for example, could not only ensure that OBC/ST/SC’s do plenty of extra “tuitions” and “maths” drilling blah blah starting from PRIMARY YEARS, making them exceptionally qualified candidates… but it could also negotiate some great book deals on these living Cinderella stories (“Onyx Chudirella: How I Got Sweeped, Got Intercaste, and Got In!”)… so that the govt. wouldn’t even have to fund their educations! Glory and then these so called reversed-discriminated higher castes would have a new occupational choice! Yeah!
(Penning my Kaavyaspiration doesn’t come out as well as some of the rest of you — but I try. 😉 )
74 comments so far! I’ve made the 50th post and hope to make the 100th as well; now, that should definitely go down in the SM annals as a first:) Work with me people; I think I’ll just rest my head on the keyboard while I wait. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
anand,
i’m just not sure what genetic differences and any correlations they may/may not have with IQ have to do with the Indian governments decision to impose quotas. i think the issue is more equitable access to a good education or to the means of getting a good education, especially at the starting point of a child’s life. what an individual does with that opportunity is up to them and their abilities/lack thereof. when it comes to issues of color india continues to be amongst the most banana republic countries on earth, although some latin countries i’ve been to can compete with us in that regard.
3,000 years my ass. Caste goes back a long way and its pernicious effects go back a long way as well, but the question is the rigidity of the system and social mobility. I don’t think it makes any sense to talk about caste today in the same way that caste existed before the British, or in the year 600, or 1,800 years ago until someone shows me otherwise–which I’m open to. I’m not denying (or confirming–I don’t know) the present-day problems related to caste in India–just taking umbrage as a former history student 🙂
Also, on a sidenote, I’m really happy that a lot of people pointed out that South Asian does not equal Indian. Just to add to the chorus: the diaspora includes Trinidad, Guyana, Jamaica, Mauritius, Fiji, the Maldives, Kenya, and a lot of other non-rich countries; you don’t got to be a rich country to have a diaspora 😉
Also, South Asia includes Nepal; Bhutan; etc., in addition to the big four that always get mentioned.
Whose God:
If it can be scientifically established that there are indeed genetic differences between populations that can account for IQ differences, then India would do herself a lot of good by being honest and recongnizing them. We still need to have vigorous equal opportunity laws (especially for public institutions) to allow ALL with capability to tap their potential (and that includes the darkest skinned, lowest caste Indian who may be born with an iq of 150). We all benefit when people are positioned to tap their own unique talents. We don’t benefit when we try and ram untalented individuals into elite institutions where they don’t belong simply to satisfy some non-sensical notion of “social justice” or “leveling the playing field.” Let there be equal access open to all and then let the chips fall were they may; we need to not apologize if groups that make up 80% of the population form only 10% of an elite group.
“If it can be scientifically established that there are indeed genetic differences between populations that can account for IQ differences, then India would do herself a lot of good by being honest and recongnizing them.”
even if this can be established and is recognized, in what way is it helpful? are we going to genetically test everyone to see if their genetics predicts a high IQ or lower IQ before giving them a place in school? what if genetic differences and IQ vary from each individual to another individual, even within the same caste, sub-caste, sub-sub-sub caste and so forth?
“We all benefit when people are positioned to tap their own unique talents. We don’t benefit when we try and ram untalented individuals into elite institutions where they don’t belong simply to satisfy some non-sensical notion of “social justice” or “leveling the playing field.” Let there be equal access open to all and then let the chips fall were they may.”
if you read my earlier comments you will see that i don’t disagree with that at all. merit-based admission is the ultimate ideal, but sometimes you have to tweak the system to ensure that all merit-based people have equal access (whether you’re from a lower caste or higher caste). i’m not sure the government’s present solution does that and see it more as, at worse, a cynical vote-getting ploy given the unevenness with which they are imposing their quotas, and at best an ill-thought out scheme founded on good intentions.
“we need to not apologize if groups that make up 80% of the population form only 10% of an elite group.”
but you also cannot assume that the 20 percent of the population that make up 90 percent of the elite group are all high IQ people or arrived in that group via pure merit. just as you can’t assume that all 80 percent of the population didn’t have an IQ high or the merit to make it to the elite group.
Regarding the marriage question, as long as we let sites like shaadi.com ask us for our castes, and as long as we let auntie-jis everywhere engineer machiavellian machinations and post such bigoted matrimonials, there will never be integration. Rise against the auntie-hood! Or perhaps we should have the government impose that 50% of all marriages be intercaste 🙂 Centralized Big-Government Auntie-hood, anyone?
God i hope you’re kidding. The thing thats been said a couple of time is why are there not enough inter-caste marriages? And of course that will solve all the problems. This is the kind of short sighted view that will keep india behind. Lets not do what it REALLY takes to improve the standard of living, but give quotas and have lots of inter caste marriages. I don’t see a lot of inter racial marriages in America, just as there are not a lot of inter caste marriages in India. Its not because of genetic differences, but econimic differences.
Quotas based on econimics will be the only effective way upliftment. But it wont work because the vote bank politics forces the politicians to rely on caste… the same thing they are supposidly against. Yeah good luck guys.
Caste codes were based on profession, imagine if today you seperated society into castes based on profession doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers on one side, fast-food workers, garbage collectors, and construction workers on the other. 1000 years from now whose kids would be smarter on average ? The skin-color thing is not too relevant.
Where is that gnxp dude when you need him.
As long as everyone is subject to the same entrance examination, who gives a rat’s ass that certain populations that may make up a majority of the general population have abysmal representation in elite settings ?
anand,
this tired old saw has been discussed, and debunked, ad nauseam here before. i refer you to any of those threads.
second, caste is not a biological fact, it is a social fact.
third, your latent and non-latent racism is getting very tiresome.
the topic of expansion of caste-based reservations in indian public and private sector institutions is a very complicated one, and there is a lot of room for serious and thoughtful discussion from people on all sides of the issue, in which we can learn from each other.
the discussion on this thread is laudably thoughtful, except for your bigoted interventions. bigotry is not accepted at SM.
peace
Sidarth Please stick to arguments rather than trying to accuse me of amorphous and poorly defined offenses such as “racism.” Secondly caste is a biological fact as has been proved by Bamshad et al from the Univ. of Utah. http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/abstract/11/6/994
I find it interesting that some people who are otherwise anti-reservation in the current form, do actually support reservations for the dalits and the untouchables.
Here are some stats from Human Rights Watch on the plight of Dalits in South Asia:
Over 100,000 cases of rape, murder, arson, and other atrocities against Dalits are reported in India each year. Given that Dalits are both reluctant and unable (for lack of police cooperation) to report crimes against themselves, the actual number of abuses is presumably much higher.
An estimated forty million people in India, among them fifteen million children, are bonded laborers, working in slave-like conditions in order to pay off a debt. A majority of them are Dalits.
According to government statistics, an estimated one million Dalits are manual scavengers who clear feces from public and private latrines and dispose of dead animals; unofficial estimates are much higher.
The Indian government has consistently attempted to sabotage the efforts of Indian NGOs to raise awareness of the caste struggle at preparatory meetings in the lead-up to WCAR. The situation of Dalits stands alone as the only issue to have been systematically cut out of the conference’s intergovernmental process so far.
This is ridiculous! They need more than reservations.
Caste violence against Dalits. Violence Against `Untouchables’ Growing, Says Report: Indian Government Fails to Prevent Massacres, Rapes, and Exploitation.
Oee thing that is truly startling about India is that the lower castes are actually a Majority of the population. The average, mainstream Indian is actually a low caste Hindu just as an average, mainstream American is a European descended Christian.
Speaking of Dalits, I have a personal anecdote about the attitude of some Indians, when it comes to Dalits.
Thinking about the anedcote,I am not surprised that the Indian Government has tried to block a discussion on Dalit Rights.
In 2001, when I was still in school, we had a couple of Law Professors discuss among various issues, the issue of ‘Dalit’ rights and the role played by the Indian Government when it came to Dalit rights in the World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance in Durban, South Africa. We were in the middle of this conference when a whole group of Indian students showed up and started defending the Indian Government and also tried to minimize the mistreatment of Dalits in India. They were extremely rude with one of the African American Law professors (I am presuming because of unfamiliarity with the format of law school discussions)
So if this is the attitude of the best and the brightest from India, I am not surprised that the Government of India is doing nothing to help the plight of the Dalits.
Here is another link, which has more insanity: Indian Government Tries to Block Caste Discussion
anand, the item you linked to says the following:
in other words, as i was saying: caste is a social fact. as i was saying. you’ll do a much better job dressing up your bigotry in science if you actually find some science to support your bigotry.
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that all Indians are anti-dalit. I know a lot of admirable work has been done on Dalit rights by people who live in India.
amfd,
was that the same conference that wanted the UN to declare that zionism equalled racism? these are problematic questions. the dalit problem is not a homogenous one. dalits are not a homogenous group. you can find discrimination against dalits among all religions, classes, castes of india. you can find it in neighboring South Asian countries. the conference didn’t seem to address that. christian dalits have their own issues with the christian church in india. the problem is that there are some who claim to speak for all dalits in india when in fact they use the dalit problem to further their own agendas in india. not all dalits want them to represent them and their struggles. i am not denying that there are those who want to brush the dalit problem under the carpet or minimize it.
The link between extreme right wing religious nationalism and anti-Dalit bigotry is a deep one. As Al Mujahid for Debauchery has said, this manifests itself in various crude, hysterical and oppressive ways, even to the extent of bullying and cajoling discussions of this issue in forums outside India. Just a few days ago, an article was linked to in the news tab by Francois Gautier, French cheerleader of RSS fascism and mosque destroying, with the hysterical title ‘Are Brahmins the new Dalits?’ (because some brahmins have to do menial work [oh the persecution! menial work!] they apparently are the ‘new dalits’)
This is the temper of reaction in some (not all) quarters to the general assertiveness of Dalits in fighting for their dignity. Although the question of reservations is not nessecarily the right way to proceed on this issue, it does no harm to note the temperature of underlying discomfort at the idea of the poor and most discriminated against people in the world being given some measure of help amongst the priveliged ‘elite’.
Didn’t ‘seem’ to address it?
Did you examine the agenda?
Are you equating the people who wished to address this issue with the anti-semites who wished to declare Zionism as racism? So the addressing of the issue of caste discrimination is a slur on India of the same moral magnitude as the campaign against Israel?
India is being persecuted because people wanted to discuss the caste system in South Africa! Oh, the persecution!
Nice final line! Because you would never want to be accused of being one of those kinds of people yourself, would you? Good thing you made that clear. So you will agree with me that despire all the objections you made to the horrible and nefarious activists with their agenda to horribly persecute India by daring to raise the topic of anti Dalit discrimination, you were horrified by the reaction of those who did all they could to block that debate? Good. Because you are certainly not one of those people who would brush the Dalit problem under the carpet by slandering those who campaign on the issue, I am sure.
Anand, my ignorant friend, your references are outdated. Please read and respond:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002849.html
Didn’t ‘seem’ to address it? Did you examine the agenda?
Ok. if I missed the part of the agenda where they were going to discuss anti-Dalit discrimination in Nepal, Bangladesh and Pakistan and within the christian and muslim and other communities of india, i really do sincerely apologize.
Are you equating the people who wished to address this issue with the anti-semites who wished to declare Zionism as racism? So the addressing of the issue of caste discrimination is a slur on India of the same moral magnitude as the campaign against Israel?
“i am not denying that there are those who want to brush the dalit problem under the carpet or minimize it. Nice final line! Because you would never want to be accused of being one of those kinds of people yourself, would you? Good thing you made that clear. So you will agree with me that despire all the objections you made to the horrible and nefarious activists with their agenda to horribly persecute India by daring to raise the topic of anti Dalit discrimination, you were horrified by the reaction of those who did all they could to block that debate? Good. Because you are certainly not one of those people who would brush the Dalit problem under the carpet by slandering those who campaign on the issue, I am sure.”
you can make whatever assumptions you want about me, i really don’t care. it doesn’t affect who i know i am and how i conduct my life and how i treat people. i won’t even bother to defend myself against such untrue accusations. if you say there is a link between extreme right wing nationalism and anti-dalit bigotry and there’s truth to that, i can also point out that there’s also a link between certain religious and other extreme entities and the extreme anti-Hindu.anti-India bigotry that is spouted when it comes to the dalit and other problems. again, the world is not black and white.
Are obese people discriminated against in America?
Yes.
Do you see Indian people trying to make conference in South Africa to support fat people in America against discrimination?
No.
So why are they persecuting Hindu India by talking about caste system?
This is a plot, mounted by progressives, who call themself ‘South Asian’ and think themself ‘inclusive’, to slander the most tolerant of all tolerant people. Dalits enjoyed their place. Bad idea was put in their head that they were not treated with tolerance. Now they slander us with African American Law Professor aided by Abrahamics for Debauchery. Slander and try to claim we are not the most tolerant. Do you see Hindus mounting defence of negro in America? No! So why can’t negro conference show same tolerance of us?
Caste system was invented by a novel called ‘God of Small Things’. This is an attempt to side-track the issue, which is facing destruction of India, apart from the historical fact of 89 billion Hindus slaughtered by Abrahmic invaders raping us over the last 109,000 years – it does not address the real existence and presence of evil that threatens to destroy Hindu civilisation and will annihilate us if we do not defeat this Satanic scum: Wendy Doniger
I see through your tactics to side-track this issue, in league with subversive Dalit activists with evil agenda, you cannot fool me, you anti-national bigots.
STOP PERSECUTING US BY DISCUSSING CASTE!
Hail Mogambo!
That’s just a pathetic thing to introduce into the debate in the first place. As if the issue of caste in India should be contingent on the discussion of it in Pakistan too. Please! This is juvenile and pathetic.
spoorlame, you’re so funny! thanks for injecting the much needed, even if oft repeated, carnival show. i was about to run off and commit suicide after reading ambedkar’s comments but you’ve saved this soul.
DesiDuteInGotham asked:
In certain parts of India, (the ones that I am familiar with) one’s last name is enough for others to put them in a caste box. Anyone who denies this is not being honest. Kids dont do that, thats why they are “innocent”. Real world is not like a primary school. Once “they” know your last name, they know where you stand in the “pecking order”.
One thing that has gotten lost in all the noise is that even this present proposed bill says that they want to limit access to so called “creamy layer OBCs”. Those OBCs who come from family income more than 250,000 are excluded.
But I am against this thing since the government is perpetuating this “horrible” system of caste by attaching a quota to each caste. In a way government is asking people’s last name, to put them in a box. Whats so shameful in all this is that this is all due to electoral politics.
As Abhi has already noted, those in the streets protesting, dont vote. As a result their issues arent of concern to politicians.
Abhi, I do not understand the reason for separating Indian-centric topics from SM-centric topics. In a wordl that is comtracting as we speak, this intention smacks a little of that American affliction – political correctness. Why be afraid of what people will think about your writings on India? It is your opinion after all. And we non-ABDs would luv to hear about your take on India – beacuse India begs opinions.
And as far as the reservation issue goes – I would be interested in knowing how many mutineers’ parents came to America after being educated in the very colleges where the issue is flaming in India. I would think the number is significant and if so, why would not touch the topic?
Neale
Thats about the least informed argument I have read so far. And the fixation with “Choora”, My God !!! We get it, man !! you are better than “Choora”…. Okay we will not call you a “Choora”, happy now ?? 🙂