All across the country May 1, people will be wearing white shirts and not buying things- That’s right, Monday is the Day Without an Immigrant Boycott. With over 2 million strong, will South Asian Americans make a difference if we all boycotted? A doctor that calls in sick, a taxi worker that stays home, a professor that cancels class? Though not as numerous as other immigrant communities, these days we can be positive that there is a South Asian American representing in almost all lines of business and a boycott by our people will make a mark in a lot of industries.
Choosing May Day for this boycott is significant in itself – it is International Workers Day, and 120 years ago was the mark of bloody riots for workers rights.
In 1884, the U.S. Federation of Organized Trade and Labor Unions had passed a law declaring that, as of May 1, 1886, an eight hour workday would be the full and legal workday for all U.S. workers – the administration had that much time to recognize this new law and put into effect. The factory, workplace and corporation owners refused.On May 1, 1886, workers took to the streets in a general strike throughout the entire country to force the administration to recognize the eight-hour working day. Over 350,000 workers across the country directly participated in the general strike, with hundreds of thousands of workers joining the marches.
In what they would later call the Haymarket riots, during the continuing strike action on May third in Chicago, the epicenter of the U.S. labor movement at that time, the Chicago police opened fire on the unarmed striking workers at the McCormick Reaper Works, killing six workers and wounding untold numbers.[link]
May 1st here in Los Angeles, there will be a group of South Asians taking part in the boycott at MacArthur Park at 3:00pm – listen for the sounds of the dhol to see where the desis at. I highly encourage you to organize (& post in SM events tab if you do!) your own posse of desis to take part in the activities all across the nation. Take pictures and send them to us. If you are able to take off work or school, please do it on behalf of the rest of the desi immigrants who can’t because a day without work would be too big of a loss. I know we’ve been discussing the debate here for the past few weeks, but it’s because when Congress goes back into session this week, this will be at the top of their agenda. Let’s make sure the South Asian voice is heard in the debate.
The other question to ask people who complain about immigrants is if they are willing to pay more for goods they use everyday. Food, for instance!
Add to that the US dollar tanking and expecting to sink even further, foreign goods are going to cost more.
Everything is going to get WAY more expensive in the US.
I didn’t notice that you had a link there regarding the “questionable circumstances”. Very interesting, actually. But since the Amendment has been in place for almost 140 years, I don’t think there’s much danger of it being repealed. I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were attempts throughout the decades to repeal it on the basis of those circumstances it was passed.
Gaurav:
YES !!
RF (100#)
How did you manage to write such a long comment without saying anything.
Regards
Bihari (103#)
This was partially the reason I am interested in issue of immigration. However I am not sure, considering both population and poverty in India, labour from Bangladesh is much cheaper. The reason illegal immigration happens in India is more of a result of political patronage for securing vote bank.
Regards
PS. Being a bhayya, I am always glad to mean another
Taz, looking forward to seeing you at the march, I presume you’re going to be part of the dhol cavalcade. I live on Wilshire so I ain’t got nowhere else to go today…of course that isn’t the only reason I’m marching today.
“The other question to ask people who complain about immigrants is if they are willing to pay more for goods they use everyday. Food, for instance!”
This holds true if you believe that labor is the chief expense in determining the price of a good. That is true in some cases, but not all. And again, you discount the role of technology advances in keeping costs down. Look at the costs of HDTVs, laptops, or other hi-tech goods – the prices continue to fall, while the level of technology in each good increases exponemtially. Airlines have to deal with rising energy costs, but the level of competition ensures they cannot raise prices, let they lose passengers to another airline. They also introduced labor saving devices like self-service check in.
I’ve been told by friends that many of the car washes in Southern California use illegal labor. In Chicago, many of the gas stations have an automatic carwash, that uses no labor. Or, I can use the self serve car wash, where you pop in a few quarters for a high-pressure hose – again, no need for additional labor.
For those who rail against Americans wasteful use of resources, keep in mind that having access to cheap landscaping services allows families to buy larger homes that have bigger lawns, which need more water and fertilizers. If people had to clean their own homes and tend to their own lawns, they would recalculate how much time they would be willing to spend for a large lawn.
Also, the price of food continues to fall in the U.S., despite the fact that agriculture employs fewer and fewer people. The price would fall even more if we did not have absurd subsidies.
The point is, because markets are flexible, any increase in the price of a good due to the loss of illegal labor will likely be offset in the future by technology innovations, or changing market tastes.
Gaurav:
Good to meet you too. Am from Patna actually. Nitesh for all his ills has had a positive impact so far and things are looking up !!!!!
In Chicago, many Asian, Arab and Eastern European communities are marching toe for toe with the Latinos. Although I support the cause and want to show solidarity with the marchers, I did not. Why? Selfish reasons, I am a legal resident, I turn a blind eye and say not my problem. Sad, ain’t it? I hang my head in shame. As the cause mine and as well as of all of first generation immigrants in this country. If the Congress takes notice and makes a favorable decision, everyone benefits whether Latino or South Asian. Someone you will be a beneficiary, that is for sure.
“The other question to ask people who complain about immigrants is if they are willing to pay more for goods they use everyday. Food, for instance!”
I’ll pay more for food as i long as i don’t have to pay for the illegals’ medical care and education.
the number of illegals that use US services for free — roads, medical care, educational facilities — without paying taxes is enormous.
for all you people who confuse immigration with illegal immigration — just have someone forcibly come stay in your home use your items and expect to be taken care of while proudly saying they do work in your hoem that you yourself wouldn’t do.
allowing illegals to stay is a slap in the face of the immigrants who are in line via legal routes to the get into the United States.
Reply to 110:
Have you,or someone you know, has/is lived/living in this country(USA) illegally? If so, have you notified the authorities to take appropriate action like deportation? If your answer is Yes, I will eat my humble pie and walk away. If your answer is No… time for Reality check, Amigo. PS: this is just an observation, no need to reply.
People of color (and all marginalized people) should have solidarity with each other.
this is on the level of “we are all quarks” type of assertion. everyone is marginalized somehow, even if there are differences of degree. in any case, the key for me is what is good for this republic. i don’t think throwing the borders is good for this republic, nor do i think an assumption that middle class people can always make recourse to inexpensive hired help is good for this republic. many of us here on SM will do fine in the new oligarchy, because that’s what you’ll have, low skilled immigrants come into this nation without power and i’m skeptical that all your organizing will change that in the long run. some of you seem to want to ameliorate some of the inequality in the world by giving people in other nations a shot no matter what their method of arriving into this country, but, in the process inequality will only increase within this nation, and i personally prioritize the united states above other nations. not everyone does, but you know where i stand. i don’t ask, “but is it good for brown people?” or “but is it good for humanity?” first on my list of queries, i ask, “but is it good for myself and my country?”
I know I’m going to get virtually slaughtered for what I am about to say, but this is my opinion.
There are some on this blog who have said “Well,my parents waited in line!!!!!” And others– “Vee Vurk! Vee pay tak-sess!! Here’s my response: LUCKY FOR YOU YOUR PARENTS WAITED IN LINE; LUCKY FOR YOU YOU’RE HERE LEGALLY:
1) If you’re of the post 1965 Act (the first generation and their offspring of which I am the latter),you are here because the US government selectively let in professionals legally– doctors, engineers, researchers, professors; if you are protesting “Hey, my massi ji and uncle ji are not professionals!!”, well, fortunately for them, there HAD to be SOMEBODY SPONSORING THEM, MOST LIKELY YOUR PROFESSIONAL DADDY JI. How else would non professionals of lower socio-economic status get into this country legally (I acknowledge that there are exceptions, but I am speaking broadly since the majority of Desis are of middle class/upper class status; cit. Census 2000. Also, I concede that the 1980’s saw immigration of service sector Desis due to the recession)? Point: If you hadn’t already been a part of some sort of priveleged class that the US wanted to allow into this country, YOUR ASSES WOULD NOT LEGALLY BE HERE TODAY.
2)Furthermore, it’s a good thing for all of you uppity folks that there are some “illegals” who pick your strawberries, mow your lawns, clean your bathrooms at the corporations that you work at and so on.
3)In addition, for all the bitching and whining about “illegal immigration”, illegal immigration generally occurs because there is an existing tie between the sending country and the recieving country. You want to stop illegal immigration? Take it to the White House; not only to say, “We don’t want illegal immigrants!!” but to go that one step further and get to the root of Hispanic migration to the US: SEVER THE ECONOMIC TIES BETWEEN MEXICO AND THE US. No more NAFTA, no more multinationals in Mejico, no more exploiting cheap labor, etc. Ask yourselves if you are willing to stop being cheap ass Desis and start paying prices that you’d be paying if it hadn’t been for illegal labor (PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT saying that we should have illegal labor so that we can continue to pay low prices for commodities; that is sick. I’m down for legalization and no, I don’t agree with the guest worker program which is temporary, and quite frankly,greedy and selfish).
But most likely you will not. You might want to stop Hispanics from crossing the border, but you want to make sure that your bananas and mangos from Latin American cross the border into your supermarkets so that they are available to you all year round at low prices.
I am also against narrow identitarian politics. Yet this issue is simply not Mexican; it’s true that it largely affects Mexicans, but so what? There are others who are not Mexicans that are going to deal with the consequences of this legislation. I also agree that a good number of African Americans have the wrong impression that “illegal aliens are taking away jobs”.
Immigration issues usually get Desis all riled up when it affects their educated counterparts, for example the “techno-migrants”. But for those of you who are supportive of Desis with HB 1 visas and opposed to immigrants who are undocumented, get this: EVEN THOSE THAT HAVE AN HB 1 VISA, I.E. DOCUMENTS,OFTEN FIND THEMSELVES IN A VULNERABLE POSITION. Ever hear of “body shops”? In the end, the issues of citizenship touch all immigrants– documented or not documented.
Looking at some of the opinions expressed here, this is what comes to mind: We don’t get called a “model minority” for nothing.
To CHEAP ASS DESIS,
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your logic. Yes, I’m well aware of the fact that undocumented workers make it possible for middle-class people like me to enjoy the lifestyle that I do. Ergo, I should support legalizing these workers? Why? Legalizing them would drive up their wages, which we “cheap ass desis” obviously don’t want. Let me know when you’re ready to come back and argue rationally, instead of ranting ALL CAPS ISHTYLE a la you. You’d be surprised how many more “cheap-ass desis” you’d win over that way.
There are some on this blog who have said “Well,my parents waited in line!!!!!” And others– “Vee Vurk! Vee pay tak-sess!! Here’s my response: LUCKY FOR YOU YOUR PARENTS WAITED IN LINE; LUCKY FOR YOU YOU’RE HERE LEGALLY:
It’s not luck – it is the consequence of individual action. If someone crosses a border illegally, he should not be surprised if he finds that he has a more tenuous stay in the U.S. than an immigrant who has a long paper trail to back up his claims on living and working here.
1) If you’re of the post 1965 Act (the first generation and their offspring of which I am the latter),you are here because the US government selectively let in professionals legally– doctors, engineers, researchers, professors; if you are protesting “Hey, my massi ji and uncle ji are not professionals!!”, well, fortunately for them, there HAD to be SOMEBODY SPONSORING THEM, MOST LIKELY YOUR PROFESSIONAL DADDY JI. How else would non professionals of lower socio-economic status get into this country legally (I acknowledge that there are exceptions, but I am speaking broadly since the majority of Desis are of middle class/upper class status; cit. Census 2000. Also, I concede that the 1980’s saw immigration of service sector Desis due to the recession)? Point: If you hadn’t already been a part of some sort of priveleged class that the US wanted to allow into this country, YOUR ASSES WOULD NOT LEGALLY BE HERE TODAY.
These so-called privileged classes did not get off the airplane at JFK and move straight to Great Neck and Rosslyn. Most lived in neighborhoods in Queens and Brooklyn for awhile, and back in the 1960’s and 1970’s – most cities were pretty godawful places to live. Factor in the lousy economic conditions at that time – there was no guarantee that things would work out for them. The saved their money to move to better neighborhoods, just as any other group of immigrants before them, and after. Why their efforts and success should be worn as a badge of shame is beyond me.
2)Furthermore, it’s a good thing for all of you uppity folks that there are some “illegals” who pick your strawberries, mow your lawns, clean your bathrooms at the corporations that you work at and so on.
When I go to the Dunkin Donuts, gas stations, Subway sandwich shops, etc. – they are largely family run shops that employ other family members to mow lawns, clean bathrooms, etc. Strawberry-picking could have been mechanized generations ago, but the ample of supply of cheap labor makes it uneconomical to pursue such matters. But as has been stated earlier in this thread, if these illegal workers approach their bosses for better working conditions, they will be tossed aside for a more docile illegal.
3)In addition, for all the bitching and whining about “illegal immigration”, illegal immigration generally occurs because there is an existing tie between the sending country and the recieving country. You want to stop illegal immigration? Take it to the White House; not only to say, “We don’t want illegal immigrants!!” but to go that one step further and get to the root of Hispanic migration to the US: SEVER THE ECONOMIC TIES BETWEEN MEXICO AND THE US. No more NAFTA, no more multinationals in Mejico, no more exploiting cheap labor, etc. Ask yourselves if you are willing to stop being cheap ass Desis and start paying prices that you’d be paying if it hadn’t been for illegal labor (PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT saying that we should have illegal labor so that we can continue to pay low prices for commodities; that is sick. I’m down for legalization and no, I don’t agree with the guest worker program which is temporary, and quite frankly,greedy and selfish).
Phooey – our largest trading partner is Canada – we trade $1 billion dollars a day with our neighbors to the north, and while there may be some illegal border crossing, it’s nothing on the scale with Mexico. The level of legal trade with Mexico has been leveling off, after an initial burst of activity with the passage of NAFTA – but because Mexico has proven inept at managing its economy and education their workforce, they depend on the U.S. to act as a social safety valve to take in the people they refuse to take care of.
But most likely you will not. You might want to stop Hispanics from crossing the border, but you want to make sure that your bananas and mangos from Latin American cross the border into your supermarkets so that they are available to you all year round at low prices. Bananas and mangoes are not gas – if they price goes up, people will stop buying them, the supply will go up, and producers will cut their prices to clear their inventories. The dynamics of the market aren’t going to go away.
I am also against narrow identitarian politics. Yet this issue is simply not Mexican; it’s true that it largely affects Mexicans, but so what? There are others who are not Mexicans that are going to deal with the consequences of this legislation. I also agree that a good number of African Americans have the wrong impression that “illegal aliens are taking away jobs”. Immigration issues usually get Desis all riled up when it affects their educated counterparts, for example the “techno-migrants”. But for those of you who are supportive of Desis with HB 1 visas and opposed to immigrants who are undocumented, get this: EVEN THOSE THAT HAVE AN HB 1 VISA, I.E. DOCUMENTS,OFTEN FIND THEMSELVES IN A VULNERABLE POSITION. Ever hear of “body shops”? In the end, the issues of citizenship touch all immigrants– documented or not documented. Looking at some of the opinions expressed here, this is what comes to mind: We don’t get called a “model minority” for nothing.
While coalition-building seems like a good idea – no one has been able to point instances of where Latinos have come to the aid of South Asians on an issue that affected them? Latinos have not proven to be particularly magnanimous when it comes to sharing political power. Can one really blame African Americans for being upset at losing political power to groups whose numbers are shored up by illegal immigration? If one million Haitians showed up in Miami one day, do you think the Latino power structure there would welcome them with open arms?
If one million Haitians showed up in Miami one day, do you think the Latino power structure there would welcome them with open arms?
heh. they don’t welcome tens of thousands 🙂
Today’s rallies drive home the point that the immigration issue has been hijacked by radical leftists, exactly as what has happened in India (wrt Bangladeshis). At the same time, I think the mainstream American has wizened up to the collectivist demand for entitlements made by illegals. If anything, this is a good thing for the Sensenberger Amendment.
Moreover, most of those who support these illegals do not pay attention to the fact that most Mexicans are homophobic and are virulently against abortion being legal (due to the influence of the Catholic church – which also why a certain section of Conservatives support them!). So if they win the immigration debate, they will soon be fighting a majority of their supporters on other issues very soon.
The fun never stops. I only wish I don’t run out of popcorn.
M. Nam
Moreover, most of those who support these illegals do not pay attention to the fact that most Mexicans are homophobic and are virulently against abortion being legal
a point of importance, mexico was an anti-clerical state for much of the 20th century. in other words, mexican catholicism had a status like turkish islam, it was driven outside of the public sphere. there are certainly pious people in mexico, but we shouldn’t overemphasize their catholicism (only around 70% of mexican americans are catholic). but yes, i think their social conservatism in some ways is real.
correction, source: True to expectations, the present study found that about 57% of adults who identified themselves as being of Hispanic origins indicated their religion as Catholic. However, about 22% indicated their religion as one of the Protestant denominations, 5% indicated some other religious identification and 12% indicated that they have no religion.
Some facts to consider before you show up in the streets..
One more comment on this particular nugget of wisdom:
“But most likely you will not. You might want to stop Hispanics from crossing the border, but you want to make sure that your bananas and mangos from Latin American cross the border into your supermarkets so that they are available to you all year round at low prices.”
If the bananas and mangoes are grown and picked outside the U.S., what is the relationship to illegal immigration? Or are they crossing the border with fruit crates strapped to their backs?
If the bananas and mangoes are grown and picked outside the U.S., what is the relationship to illegal immigration? Or are they crossing the border with fruit crates strapped to their backs?
don’t think. feel. don’t you feel empty banana racks??? 🙂
I totally feel a-kela.
Dear u of chicago boy,
Yes, I’m well aware of the fact that undocumented workers make it possible for middle-class people like me to enjoy the lifestyle that I do. Ergo, I should support legalizing these workers? Why? Legalizing them would drive up their wages, which we “cheap ass desis” obviously don’t want.
That is exactly what I am saying– Desis, because their background differs, do not feel the need to do anything about issues that do not directly affect or concern them (But most likely you will not. ) Where do our opinions diverge?
You’d be surprised how many more “cheap-ass desis” you’d win over that way.
I don’t think there’s the danger that “cheap ass desis” would be “won over” because of what I’m saying. Looks like they have their minds already made up!
Let me know when you’re ready to come back and argue rationally, instead of ranting ALL CAPS ISHTYLE a la you.
I already foresaw this: I know I’m going to get virtually slaughtered for what I am about to say, but this is my opinion.
KQB: Fair enough. But:
Why their efforts and success should be worn as a badge of shame is beyond me.
I realize it may have come off this way; my response to this is, it is certainly not a “badge of shame” at all; I work for my money,too. What is a shame is when this is used to criticize those who do not find themselves in similar circumstances that would allow and facilitate mobility (being able to come here and have access to citizenship, and being able to work so that they can save up, move, and so on).
Someone else mentioned that “illegals” do not pay taxes and use up medical services, etc. Putting aside the fact that some “illegals” actually do pay taxes, how are they sucking up medical services for free? Most medical services are privatized, and you need money to pay for those, and money is not something that “illegals” have. There are shoddy clinics that are run for those without healthcare insurance, but by no means are they run exclusively on tax dollars. If the problem is that they are illegals and not paying taxes, wouldn’t giving them citizenship make them pay taxes via their paychecks?
My question to all of you out there is: what would be the problem if undocumented immigrants were given citizenship?
Yo, I’m just showing up to say the protest is going on strong outside my office window. Photos linked.
one note, i want to reiterate something. some ppl (eg., kxb) have pointed to “what have the latinos ever done for us?” i have to admit i don’t care if latinos have done anything for “us,” or not. if it is just, let’s move and do it, if it’s not, let’s not. i think this is bad for the republic, and i think this is bad for myself and my friends and what i conceive a ‘good society’ to be. i don’t particularly care that latinos are not particularly sympathetic to brown people….
how are they sucking up medical services for free? Most medical services are privatized, and you need money to pay for those, and money is not something that “illegals” have. There are shoddy clinics that are run for those without healthcare insurance, but by no means are they run exclusively on tax dollars.
you can’t deny emergency services to people.
don’t think. feel. don’t you feel empty banana racks??? 🙂
I LOATHE BANANAS.
As for health care – ever watch E.R.? The poor folks (immigrant or otherwise) depend on public hospitals. Hell, I was born in a public hospital in Queens. But if you have only a few public hospitals, but have no check on the number of poor people who will make use of them, you’re asking for trouble. Also, hospitals cannot turn patients away if they do not have health insurance. If someone shows up to an emergency room at University of Chicago medical center without insurance, you cannot turn them away. You can hit them or aid agencies for billing later. Private hospitals write off millions every year in uncollectible bills (but I do not know the split between illegal immigrants and the rest). So there is a tremendous amount of shifting of costs in the medical professions. Plus, since illegals are often scared to see a doctor, they wait until they have to be rushed to an ER, which costs more.
“My question to all of you out there is: what would be the problem if undocumented immigrants were given citizenship? “
Not if they obey the law. But how do engender a respect for American law if you reward its violation?
124
have you ever been to a public hospital in any major urban city? They function largely on tax dollas. They have clinics for non-emergent issues that see people of all backgrounds not only emergent medical care.
if you walk into Bellevue hospital in NYC you will be seen and treated with very good medical care. No one is ever turned away. However a large part of the population that gets treated at bellevue is illegal.
if we were to give citizenship to the illegals then, yes they would have to pay taxes. But then their wages would also have to increase.
Please visit any public hospital in the US and take a look around. Ask how it is funded and what proportion of the patients actually pay for their care.
i don’t particularly care that latinos are not particularly sympathetic to brown people….
For the most part – neither do I. But in politics, people do work in groups – whether those groups are ethnic, religious, professional etc. Since Latinos are organizing as an ethnic group on this issue (as is their right), they and those who sympathize with them may want to get support based on perceived shared ethnic interest. My point was that was no shared interest solely on ethnicity.
Societies should pick their morals. consciously, actively, proudly. the economic consequences that follow can be dealt with. (argument for a too-big government? perhaps, and to that degree I’m hesitant… but not deterred.) That foundational moral should be something like “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
If you were born across the river, of indigenous blood and no resources… how much would you risk to feed your daughter? Or are you among those unable to envision the other perspective and believe that I, born across the river of indigenous blood and no resources, should know better than to have a daughter?
Yes, I’m being a bit dramatic. Also, Razib: that we’re all stardust is, I think, a very compelling argument. We should be aware that we are inherently alike and we choose to differentiate — not the reverse.
To CHEAP ASS DESIS:
You state: “Desis, because their background differs, do not feel the need to do anything about issues that do not directly affect or concern them.”
Newsflash: That’s true of all people, not just desis! Just as several other people on this thread have pointed out, most other people of color care very little about Post-9/11 hate crimes, racial profiling, and indenifite detentions of brownfolk because it does not affect them. Not that I expect them to be equally outraged, but if you’re going to accuse Desis of being selfish, I’m here to tell you that it goes both ways.
ok — i laughed at myself after posting 131. i have a knack for remembering obscure facts that are really not relevant to anything. but google and the Jet Propulstion Lab at CalTech redeemed me:
If you were born across the river, of indigenous blood and no resources… how much would you risk to feed your daughter? Or are you among those unable to envision the other perspective and believe that I, born across the river of indigenous blood and no resources, should know better than to have a daughter?
see, this is part of the problem, one side here doesn’t have to worry about factual accuracy much. most mexican immigrants are not indigenous, they are mestizo, of mixed-blood. they speak spanish and and are mostly roman catholic christians (the indigenous are much more likely to be evangelical protestants). one of the most annoying things is the crap about being “native” that a lot of these mestizos prattle on about, the fact is that they have been the hammer that has destroyed genuine indigenous mexican culture. their patrilineal blood is solely iberian (the DNA sayeth!), and they don’t speak the languages of their foremothers nor bow to their ancestral gods. most of them are not from northern mexico and have no historical relationship to the sparsely populated lost lands which were mostly inhabited by other native peoples, some of whom, like the apache, were targets of campaigns of genocide on the part of the mexican gov.
history is messy and complex. when conservatives with their mythologies trot it out people are quick to note this, but when liberal with their narratives pretend as if one drop of indigenous blood and person-of-color-status in the united states (note that many cubans get to be both persons of color and white, ask afro-cubans who are victims of discrimination in miami or what their ancestors had to deal with in old cuba).
Razib, I want a source on your contention that the indigienous are more likely to be Evangelical Protestant. 🙂
dang. i’m sorry. i totally didnt intend to imply that they had a right due to indigenousness…. i was trying to heighten their marginalizedness. you know, ploy for sympathy
I think there are two issues here. One deals with the illegal immigrants already here and the other is about border control. Though I have been pretty sympathetic to illegal immigrants for a long time, I am more sympathetic to the poor Americans. Unrestricted entry of cheap work force in our labor markets is adversely affecting the wages of American low skilled workers and I think our primary responsibility is to the American poor. I do think we need to control the flow of low skilled labor through our borders.
Having said that, we do need to legalize the millions of illegal aliens already in the US. The Sensenberger Amendment with its draconian provisions for both illegal and legal immigrants (paging H1-B babus/Permanent Residents) is way over the top and certainly needs to be defeated. Once we can establish some control on the border, we do need to give a blanket amnesty to the illegal already present in the US (maybe a path to citizenship if they meet the McCain-Kennedy requirements).
true, there’s so little purity in any regard
but, i actually don’t think most mexican-americans claim to be indigenous. more so maybe mestizo while acknowleding a link to indigenous heritate, but not indigenous per se
p.s. if you really want to get messy about it, a lot of desis probably look more like an indigenous mexican than does a random chilango from Mexico city
Al Muj — totally fair. Though I secretly like the idea of open borders, immigration tied to the labor cycle is a fine idea. We must also keep in mind that there is doubt as to exactly how much (illegal/undocumented) labor harms low-waged Americans. George Borjas (notable Harvard economist on such issues) often finds contradictory results in his studies.
Also, to the extent that undocumented workers do displace Americans — well, they’re easier to exploit.. whom do we hold reposible for that? the father of four or the corporate big-wig?
Also, if status were easier to attain, labor would move more freely — since immigrants have already chosen to leave home, they’re likely to be more willing to move with the market (i’ve said this somewhere on SM before…. )
So, Al Muj, while valid, your concerns need not force you to pick between immigrants and labor. I think..
sahel, quick & dirty: In recent years Protestant denominations have become increasingly important particularly in rural regions and among indigenous communities. Most of the growth among Protestants has occurred in the evangelical sector. In 1997 Protestants accounted for approximately 5 per- cent of the population.
also, on a international level, look at the % of protestants in central america, guatemala is nearly 50% (i think 40ish now?) and it is the most indigenous. and, from the area handbook:
The 1990 census revealed significant regional variations in numbers of Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics represented more than 95 percent of all Mexicans in a band of central-western states extending from Zacatecas to Michoacán. In contrast, the least Roman Catholic presence was found in the southeastern states of Chiapas, Campeche, Tabasco, and Quintana Roo.
connecting the dots for those who don’t know where the indigenous are concentrated, it’s in the southeast.
but, i actually don’t think most mexican-americans claim to be indigenous. more so maybe mestizo while acknowleding a link to indigenous heritate, but not indigenous per se
there are many faces of this issue. in mexico i think you will find a lot of mestizos angered if they are conflated with the amerindian groups. in the USA a substantial minority of hispanics still list themselves as “white” (some of this can be justified, many cubans and a minority of mexican americans are pretty “white” looking). but, on the other hand there are the identity politics activists who tend to emphasize the indigenous roots of mexican americans because that is the maximum marginalization ploy. i have heard mexican american activists declare that “this continent was ours before you white people came.” these are highly fluent and likely somewhat assimilated individuals to be working this angle, but it does occur.
i recently read a book about hernan cortez’ mestizo son with his mistress malinche. the author, a white american woman, waxed on about his “bronze skin” and “indigenous features,” and analogized him to young indian boys she saw in the markets in chiapas. all the white she recounted the fact that he was taken from his mother, raised in spain, and fought in the armies of charles V, hapsburg holy roman emperor, in morroco and in central europe!!! in other words, the fact that this man, cortez’ son by malinche, was half indigenous totally swamped out the reality that aside from his genetics he was a spanish knight who was at home at the court of the more powerful european potentate at the time, and interestingly, fought in wars against the infidel!
the racialists (white) tend to elide the differences between non-whites peoples and their textured reality into a “mud” melange. similarly, many well meaning liberals tend to forget that non-whites, or, part non-white in this case, are fully fleshed actors and agents in world history and not simply cut outs and glasses in which to pour their guilt and pathos into.
but back to the issues, facts matter. i’m not going to address the multitudinous points here, but assertions that illegals don’t use hospital services are problematic, because they are so plainly wrong and they waste time as people have to respond to them.
p.s. i rode the greyhound today. i was hoping that perhaps this might be “a greyhound without mexicans,” but alas it wasn’t to be. i don’t mind mexicans, i just wanted some extra room (ah yes, the old progressive concern about overpopulation disappears with the swarming people are brownish 🙂
i would say yes, but that this happens mostly at the college level with kids who are in a way just acting out a role. the majority of people aren’t represented well by those fumbling attempts
there’s always a portion of over-heated rhetoric that gets in the way of dialogue. one thing is, the people who take it upon themselves to dialogue are a ttimes those who are removed from the sentiments of the people they percieve to represent. there’s usually a lot more common ground among “common people”
there’s usually a lot more common ground among “common people”
yep. in the end jose and maria just want to eat and live in the american dream. i don’t think they should have that opportunity unless they jump some non-trivial hoops (and i don’t mean pay a smuggler to get into the country). that’s the god’s honest truth.
umm… the CIA World Factbook says Mexico is 30% Amerindian and 6% Protestant, rendering your claim that most indigenous (assuming the two words are interchangeable) are Protestant simplamente imposible.
Your own source says that Protestantism is becoming increasingly important and talks about growth. I know you know better than to conflate a trend with an absolute number.
And of your “least roman catholic” regions, the leastest is only 16% Protestant or evangelical (I don’t know the difference). and if these are the predominantly indigenous areas, those numbers would be higher than 30%, thus not even here do they comprise a simple majority.
Further, your source talks about recent changes in response to Roman Catholicism. This is barely support for your contention that most indigenous are (which carries some assumption of historical presence)protestant.
I didn’t question your info when you first posted — but I’m sure glad you clarified and revealed the emptiness of your own data.
dear sahej and razib, you need to learn levity. none of what i said requires that mexicans be indigenous.
hm. can you read english? or re-read english? i said:
the indigenous are much more likely to be evangelical protestants
ergo, the rest of your comment is moot since i didn’t say what you thought i said (i love gotcha’s on people who think they’ve gotten me in a gotcha).
to clarify a drop further, my illustration is not effected if indigenous is replaced with meztiso. by ‘levity’ i meant definition one, “lightness of manner, or speech” because i thought it was rediculous to jump on ‘indigenous’ when it was clearly (at least i thought) not central to the point.
as for college kids (which i am not but pretty close) and thier idealism — I’d much rather be associated with that than the “majority” of America.
ah, wait a second…i see there was an ambiguity in the phrasing. i meant they are much more likely to be evangelical protestants than mestizos. not that they are more likely to be protestants than catholics!