All across the country May 1, people will be wearing white shirts and not buying things- That’s right, Monday is the Day Without an Immigrant Boycott. With over 2 million strong, will South Asian Americans make a difference if we all boycotted? A doctor that calls in sick, a taxi worker that stays home, a professor that cancels class? Though not as numerous as other immigrant communities, these days we can be positive that there is a South Asian American representing in almost all lines of business and a boycott by our people will make a mark in a lot of industries.
Choosing May Day for this boycott is significant in itself – it is International Workers Day, and 120 years ago was the mark of bloody riots for workers rights.
In 1884, the U.S. Federation of Organized Trade and Labor Unions had passed a law declaring that, as of May 1, 1886, an eight hour workday would be the full and legal workday for all U.S. workers – the administration had that much time to recognize this new law and put into effect. The factory, workplace and corporation owners refused.On May 1, 1886, workers took to the streets in a general strike throughout the entire country to force the administration to recognize the eight-hour working day. Over 350,000 workers across the country directly participated in the general strike, with hundreds of thousands of workers joining the marches.
In what they would later call the Haymarket riots, during the continuing strike action on May third in Chicago, the epicenter of the U.S. labor movement at that time, the Chicago police opened fire on the unarmed striking workers at the McCormick Reaper Works, killing six workers and wounding untold numbers.[link]
May 1st here in Los Angeles, there will be a group of South Asians taking part in the boycott at MacArthur Park at 3:00pm – listen for the sounds of the dhol to see where the desis at. I highly encourage you to organize (& post in SM events tab if you do!) your own posse of desis to take part in the activities all across the nation. Take pictures and send them to us. If you are able to take off work or school, please do it on behalf of the rest of the desi immigrants who can’t because a day without work would be too big of a loss. I know we’ve been discussing the debate here for the past few weeks, but it’s because when Congress goes back into session this week, this will be at the top of their agenda. Let’s make sure the South Asian voice is heard in the debate.
There are way too many remarks bashing “illegals” and so forth that raise my eyebrows to quote here. For my part, I can say that if it hadn’t been for the struggles fought by generations of “illegals” who were and weren’t South Asian, all of us wouldn’t have the rights we have today. It’s funny how being priveleged or lucky causes some to boo hoo those who are not so lucky. And that privelege and luxury– which allows you to not care because you are not directly affected– has been the fruit of others who have broken their backs, similar to the activists today.
It’s also telling that those of you who are so vehemently against the presence of “illegals” and their rights do not have any sense of our own South Asian history in this country. Ever heard of Punjabi “ILLEGAL” farmers in California and Washington in the 1800’s-1900’s who faced similar obstacles? They also fought for citizenship and rights- as “illegals” similar to those who are mobilizing today. Those early South Asian pioneers were also viewed much like how some of you are viewing “illegals” today.
The larger question would be: why do “illegals” come here? You might want to take into consideration the global structure of the economy. In the US, most (not all) live relatively well. Do you think that it’s incidental? In many cases, it is a zero sum game.
I think our friend RF sums it up the best:
My one comment I’d like to add in response to those who are putting down the civil disobedience of this day so vehemently is that it was Black people who broke many laws and sat down at lunch counters and got hosed down by police during the civil rights movement that helped make it possible for you to even live and work in this country at all; and other Asians who suffered the harsh anti-miscegenation laws that were only repealed in the 1960s who paved the way for your very privileged ‘legal’ immigration status today. Remember history or be a victim of your own ignorance.
razib- why bring up how Mexico treats its illegals? Because it’s hypcorisy at its finest.
For my part, I can say that if it hadn’t been for the struggles fought by generations of “illegals” who were and weren’t South Asian, all of us wouldn’t have the rights we have today
there are many people responsible for the “rights” that we have today in the great-chain-of-causation. as brown skinned people the civil rights movement was essential. for those of us who are female the sufferagettes and feminists were important. as citizens of a republic the founding of the american republic in the 18th century was important. for the founders men like locke & montesquieu were important.
history shapes who we are, but it does not bind us in a straight-jacket of possibilities. and i’m glad your eyebrows are raised, perhaps you’ve been living in an ideological echo chamber where you hear the same Truths over & over again. diversity is good, right? 🙂
razib- why bring up how Mexico treats its illegals? Because it’s hypcorisy at its finest.
1) who cares what mexico thinks, better to ignore them, they aren’t really relevant to us (america is far more important to mexico than vice versa).
2) the illegals left mexico, and many of them claim they want to become americans. let’s take them at face value at least. i’m skeptical about the purity of their motives, but few people have pure motives.
3) most of the americans sympathetic to the ‘undocumented’ wouldn’t condone the way central americans are treated, and would likely change it if possible. it’s just that they can’t do anything about it since the mexican gov. doesn’t give a shit what they think.
4) my point is that most nations aren’t run like finland. not shit sherlock, that’s why people are trying to get into this country. even if they don’t give a shit about the “rights” that we have, the robust economy generated by a government of laws is magnetic in its attraction.
i’m glad your eyebrows are raised, perhaps you’ve been living in an ideological echo chamber where you hear the same Truths over & over again. diversity is good, right? 🙂
Huh? Which “same Truths”? I’m not following any ideology, I’m simply putting out my thoughts after having read this thread.
I will go to work but when I get back…I’m gonna vaporize some Granddaddy Purple and watch the march as it goes past my apartment on Wilshire. Si se puede!
Razib– Oh, I see what you mean by hearing the “same Truths”. What I meant was that I am suprised that Desis here in this forum would hold these kinds of views. I’m used to hearing white folks talking like this, since I grew up around a majority of them, but I didn’t expect to hear these views voiced on SM. Most South Asians I know think like I do.
Side note– the Republicans are really happy and falling over themselves, due to the fact that Indian Americans specifically are starting to go over to the Dark Side (not to say that the Democratic side is any less darker) in larger numbers. As of now, it’s 50-50 between the Democrats and Republicans, in contrast to the past where the majority of the Desis were Demos. As the wealthiest ethnic group, conservative and rich Indian Americans now becoming Republican = Mo’ $$$$$$$$ for the Republican party!!
just wanted to say thank you brownfrown and chokri and taz (of course) for your comments:
taz i think what you’re doin with your day of no immigrants that you’ve planned is awesome, in trying to build a united immigrant voice. cos lordy knows it’d be nice to have one! some (note: some) of the responses given to these positive efforts to bring about change for ALL immigrants (documented or undocumented, illegal or legal, if some people really wanna just tell it like it us how about people from non-white countries who are less welcome in white ones than white immigrants)…are just a little bit too destructive and not constructive in its criticism.
as someone who’s interested in politics, activism and human rights i find it v sad to see the following arguments come up when talking about people’s basic rights and dignities:
-why march for them when they won’t march for us?
-um, im like rich, so i don’t really care, ok?
-stop being a bleeding heart liberal/obvious leftie/secret commie
-what’s the point? the government always gets elected anyway
-human rights? there’s no such thing, you just need to get real, make money, get ahead, keep your head down and not do anything ‘stupid’
the worst thing is when people using such arguments paint themselves as ‘realists’ because they are telling it like it us and not being misty-eyed idealists. what they fail to realise is that people who work for things like immigrant rights realise that things aren’t perfect, and that they won’t ever be perfect… (and its nothing to do with left or right because most immigrant support networks and other human rights groups are non-political)…
its just they that have this crazy, totally strange need to get off their asses and do something about unjust situations. and help out other people…even though they may not personally benefit from helping others through some form of instant gratification…because they see other human beings as being equal…and they care about their communities
yeah, strange folk those activists. they like, CARE…
The picture you get from the organizers themselves is simple that this is a hispanic movement focused mainly on Mexicans. This is understandable since they make up the majority of the illegal/legal immigrants. Lets be honest, no other immigrant group is going to take part in this boycott at a considerable level and thats a fact.
I’m used to hearing white folks talking like this, since I grew up around a majority of them, but I didn’t expect to hear these views voiced on SM.
well, i’m glad that you know your stereotype that brown folk at SM don’t hold views like some white folks has many exceptions!
As of now, it’s 50-50 between the Democrats and Republicans, in contrast to the past where the majority of the Desis were Demos
no, SM has reported on polling which shows 90% of brownz voted dem in 2004. i think 90% is too high, they didn’t sample all the states but concentrate don the blue states, but i think 70-80% is plausible.
tashie,
1) re: activists and their altruism, my personal experience is that many activists take a lot of pride in their ‘altruistic’ activities and don’t neglect to remind those of us who aren’t activists of their good deeds. now, what they do might still be good deeds, but i don’t grant that activists behave like altruistic automatons totally subservient toward some altruism god which drives them without reward. i think there is reward in terms of status and self-esteem.
2) some of think that justice starts close to home. i grant that it is important that a subset of society is involved in broad, universal, forms of social justice, but i do not to agree that everyone should be so equally focused.
So who are the people here who support the Sensenberger Amendment?
this entire issue of immigrants rights is embroiled in unskilled workers rights. if south asians, despite their success and riches and affirmation that “yes, you are a good, hardworking, smart people, we like you!”, cannot admit that we TOO have not only a history, but also a present, of unskilled immigrants, documented and undocumented, as part of our community, then yes, this has nothing to do with us because we are living in complete mythology of ourselves.
so what if the media is portraying the street protests as one-sided and homogeneously latino, that doesn’t mean it is! and yes, this is about MORE than just the concerns and rights of the undocumented, though the current media attention and debate ARE using the undocumented as emblems of the debate because their concerns are so much more polarizing and provide for very high-fallutinÂ’ attitudes and arguments, as evidenced by the hr 4437Â’s prohibiting aid mumbo-jumbo.
if street protests aren’t your thing, go ahead, call your representative or whatever else floats your boat. but let’s not make blanket statements calling for no participation because this issue does touch quite centrally to SOME south asian american lives. in the april 10 protest a few weeks ago, sikh (and mexican) truck drivers along the pacific coast used their nextel walkie-talkies to communicate a work-stoppage for the day. it is these men’s prerogative to take this action to make a statement on their central role in this entire debacle we call the american economy. i am going out in my city on mayday because i feel a solidarity with these hardworking men who look very similar to my father, speak the same language at home as i do, eat the same food i eat, and are contributing to society in a very productive way (driving all the crap i buy to walmart where i can buy a shirt made in india by a woman not very far from my age all for 5 dollars most of which goes to the waltons but maybe 2% of which goes to her direct pocket, for instance.) this isnÂ’t about lambasting about my “good deeds” or moral one-upmanship, but a political decision on where i lay my loyalties.
we (as in those of us who define ourselves as south asian ams as a political identity, and not just a cultural identity) have a privilege afforded us (citizenship, immigration status, what have you) by the sacrifices of many stemming all the way to the komagatu maru (word, neha!), to the bellingham riots, to the MexiDooÂ’s of punjabi/mexican asian-exclusion act wedding fame, all the way to post 9/11 special registration and roundups. if we cannot see immigrant issues as south asian american issues, we truly do live in an ahistorical fairytale.
anyways, hope to run across a desi or two later today.
and yes, thanks taz!
a doctor that calls in sick
funny you should say that.. i was thinking that while driving to work, listening to npr and all the hullaballoo that might happen today… what if i went to work and all my other immigrant compadres (although i was born in the estados unidos) didn’t come to work… what if the surgeries didn’t happen…the right medicines were not given… seriously… that would be a day of hell..
the hippocratic oath prevents us from doing so… well that and hopefully our conscious…healthcare is one aspect of society that you can’t mess around with..
now if they only had a brownie on scrubs or grey’s anatomy…. or heck some asian person…then that would be ‘reality’… 😉
Before anyone starts quoting MLK’s “I have a dream speech”, you might want to read this…
razib the atheist:
firstly just wanna say that i always love reading your comments because they are interesting, well-thought out and well written.
secondly, i do agree with you that there is a tendency with people who are activists to band together and form their own social hierarchy where ‘no sweat’ sneakers replace the converse ones, how many arundhati roy/naomi klein books have you read, how many discriminated people do YOU help etc.
however, i’m speaking as someone who is both friends with people who are activists and people on the other end of the spectrum where apathy, anti-politics and random drunken shenanigans reign (i live in nz- its cold, its got pretty scenery, there’s lotsa sheep, but there’s sweet f*** all to do except drink and then go back for more)
and i’ve noticed that sometimes the reason people who are politically active can seem self-righteous and proud of what they do etc. is because there’s this sort of vicious cycle at work…
because so few people care about politics these days (most common reason given – cos things suck and nothing ever changes) –> people who are politically aware feel like a minority and have to work a lot harder than previous larger civil rights movements –> activists feel like their work is unappreciated/not making a difference/isolated –> some activists form their own little club of like-minded thinkers to encourage each other –> everyone else thinks activists are self-righteous and clique-ish –> nobody else cares –> things suck –> nothing ever changes.
not everyone is equally focussed on human rights etc, but i think things would be better if they were. if people took ownership of issues then we wouldn’t see things like human rights as working for minorities or working tirelessly for people who are always going to be at the bottom of society’s heap anyway. we would see it for what it is, people working to see that their own rights are protected.
political issues are not the exclusive concern of educated, middle class liberals or whoever, they come from and belong in the home, on the streets, in schools, at work.
i am the first to admit that i have more in common with another indian-nzer who listens to m.i.a, is also at uni studying law/politics/english and shops at the same clothes shops as me vs. an indian-nzer who has works as a bus driver, comes from rural india and is a bit more cookies than cream.
but just because i don’t instantly relate to such a person doesn’t mean that i don’t think they have the same rights and dignity as me. and if those rights were being abused, there’s nothing wrong with saying you care and showing your support.
yes some people do use their activism to guilt trip others or act as if they are superior, but others just do it because they feel compelled to, and because they truly believe it is the right thing to do.
just don’t make the mistake of stereotyping all activists in this light because you feel that they stereotype non-activists negatively. if you believe that there’s another way to make the world a better place, more power to ya my friend 🙂 to each their own
Can someone post numbers on the number of indians who are living as illegal aliens in the US.
Do you still take the Hippocratic oath? Most of us don’t. It’s a bit silly.
Thanks, Taz! I appreciate how you made it a point to point out that for some of our community members “a day without work would be too big of a loss.”
In response to people equating the immigrant right marches to being about “amnesty” and “Latino communities,” it might be worth spending some time learning about the immigration bills that are being proposed support, and what immmigrant rights advocates and supporters mean by comprehensive immigration reform. Maybe, then we will be able to understand how desis fit into the picture….
I think Deepa Iyer’s remarks at the April 10 march in DC, gives a (brief) incite into how immigration rights affect South Asian American communinities (Asian Americans in general).
You can read a public statement put out by South Asian organizations on immigration reform at SAALT’s website.
i’m currently sitting in carrel 368 doing a take home exam [which i should be focusing on but i need a 1 minute break]. i’m not going to front and tell you i read any comments b/c i didn’t. i’m sleepy and cranky and trying to figure out if the stupid fact pattern is a corporation or partnership and on principle… the fact that i’m drinking a diet coke at 9:30 AM is absolutely disgusting.
BUT i just wanted to say:
Taz this had me actually laughing out loud in the library [which garnered about 15 really really dirty looks from annoyed law students]: “listen for the sounds of the dhol to see where the desis at”
i’ll come back and read this post and the rest of the thread in its entirety after 3 pm [there should be at least 200 comments then!].
wish me luck people…
Can someone post numbers on the number of indians who are living as illegal aliens in the US.
Well, I refuse on principle to post numbers for Indians, as opposed to South Asians, in response to a question like this, but that’s an argument for another time.
1) all numbers of undocumneted immigrants are imperfect estimates by their very nature (they rely on extrapolations of things like comparing the census data to the immigratio department’s data, for example–see below). The overall estimates for all undocumented have ranged from about 10 million to one study that argued 20 million. But no one knows. 2) The Pew Hispanic Center estimate, which is widely relied upon by the media, estimates that there are about 1.4 million “unauthorized migrants” from East and South Asia. This is not the same thing as undocumented immigrants, but it’s a slight overestimate by the terms of the study (up to 10% of the total of 11.5 to 12 million–not sure what percent of the 1.4 million). I would argue that the method of comparing census and immigration data tends to underestimate, because the census (the higher figure) tends to miss a whole lot of people, particularly those who have a reason not to answer long or short forms from the government, but the guy who did this has been doing this for decades. 3) 3.1 million U.S. citizen children are part of the 14.6 million people in “unauthorized families.
Here’s the methodology:
The estimate of unauthorized workers is derived by using a variant of a basic “residual” method. The method relies on exclusion. In other words, the unauthorized population consists of persons and groups not included in the authorized population. To reach that number, the first step is to develop an estimate for the legal, foreign-born population. That estimate is based on admissions into the country provided by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and its predecessor, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), as well on the number of refugees admitted and the number of asylum applications granted. After allowing for legal temporary migrants and for legal immigrants missed in the Census or the yearly March Supplement to the CPS, the initial estimate of the unauthorized population covered in the survey is derived by subtracting the estimate
what if i went to work and all my other immigrant compadres (although i was born in the estados unidos) didn’t come to work
Do the South Asians form such a large part on the medical force in the US that them taking one day off would mean that surgeries have to cancelled and right medicines are not handed out to the patients?
I can respect differing points of views within the south asian diaspora.. but I have to admit that I’m a little nauseous after reading this blog.
Whether you agree or disagree with the situation, I would have hoped to hear more compassion for those who are less fortunate than us.. and the very least toward compassionate people who are helping these people, who do not deserve to be prosecuted by law. I am amazed that people would be proud in a society that makes it lawful not to help the poor amongst us?
For most SM bloggers we were born here of legal immigrants, however it may not be so far off the horizon that a bill proposes that only those born of American citizens be granted American citizenship.. perhaps they may say that any child of immigrants, legal or not do not really count.. I hope your sake that if that occurs, others outside your class/color/gender will show compassion for your fight and not mirror your own apathetic feelings. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/03/02/news/top_stories/23_41_213_1_05.txt
And which societies prosecutes their citizens that choose not to help the poor among us, please?
I largely agree with this. However, the only caveat I would add is that there are topics on which the divide is not between “Activists” and “non-activists” but between people whose life experiences have predisposed them to be sympathetic to people in distress than others. For example, as an lgbt South Asian, I don’t have the luxury of not caring about politics or bandying about random opinions based on little to absolutely nothing liek OMG WACTH OUT FOR TEH IMGTRANTSZ!!!!. Additionally, this is a fairly arbitrary divide–the Mexican and Latino mobilizations were possible precisely because there was an intersection of race and class (and national status) issues–the convergence is probably what allowed everything to work out in a way that led to hundreds of thousnads in the streets in Chicago and then Los Angeles.
I’ve found that, for all the bluster about rebellion among 2nd gen (and culturally 2nd gen) AB desis on this blog, they tend to range from accommodating the status quo to actively supporting it. However, thirty years ago (or perhaps less), their parents were experiencing hair pulling and segregation and the dotbusters and are in many cases more predisposed to the possibility and necessity of social change than their lawyer/investment banker/organizer children even if the parents themselves are also wealthy and additionalyl are more conservative. So it’s not simply a matter of ideological bent or whether your paycheck comes from a 501-c-3 (which is a fairly arbitrary and counterproductive definition of activist, but one that many people seem bent on using here) or whether you just happen to be a nice person, but what you have the intuitive potential to care about.
But like I said before (this is not directed to razib but more generally to the xenophobic and “law and order” sentiments expressed widely on this thread), if you’re reading this and that’s not you and moreover you’re not interesting in even examining why you don’t understand the role that undocumented people from Mexico play int he U.S. and abroad, don’t care about the passages in these bills that woudl get DOCUMENTED people deported for shoplifting, and like that your taxpayer money is being used basically to build jails for immigrants (paid to Halliburton) and eliminate foreign direct investment to developing dcountries through remittances intead of something marginally productive like port security, good for you. Have fun being an ignorant and/or sanctimoniously privileged South Asians and watch out for the rest of us who are not stupid.
Finally, mad props to brownfrown for raising the basic global economic issue that’s at the root of migration issues in the U.S., Germany, France, and abroad. Because, you know, like, global economics and labor flows kind of, like, matter, you know?
Amnesty now! End the deportations!
I’ll see you all at La Marcha 😉
Citzenry granted to those born of immigrants within the country is already in place in the Constitution, so cut the scare tactics.
Indians hardly ever protest. We rather watch the tamasha from the sidelines… it seaiser.
Until it means something to us. So to go out onto the streets for poor Latio Americans is not something I see the techie looking for a Green Card or the doctor sahib or unculeji or whomever doing. It is my guess (and I may be wrong) that most Indians here are legal and if they are looking to stay they will want to be legal in that too.
If any NYC mutineers are going to the Union Square protest and want to meet up, please email me.
PMG
Well that’s the whole bloody point.. there hopefully should be no free society where the personal choice to help or not help the less fortunate should result in persecution. This proposed law would persecute those who do choose to help the poor, and I mean food banks, shelters, tutoring etc.. and in case this you were not “cc’d” on the definition – the result would be jail time on one’s permanent record. This is what our society wants to stand for? & this law enforcement is what we want our taxes to support?
rck:
a large contingency of nurses are of indian origin..and filipino, asian, etc… a huge chunk are also pharmacists, doctors, and other people in the medical field..whether it be the hospitality staff..to catering…
i know for a fact, if the asians didn’t come to work at my hospital..there would be a crisis…
i know for a fact, if the asians didn’t come to work at my hospital..there would be a crisis…
Ah, ok. Thank you.
I was rather curious as I never got the impression that the Asian immigrants play such a large part in the medical set up there.
Chick Pea:
Are they legal immigrants, or what. I suspect some are legal non-immigrants looking to become legal immigrants.
This protest is about people who are in the USA but not on a legal basis. i’m not saying there is not a valid reason for the protests but what I’m saying is that it is not something most Indians give a sh!t about.
I think US should have open borders so that anyone can come, this will also give warm feeling to “fight the man” crowd
Prosecute, not persecute.
WHICH proposed law. Sensenbrenner’s? Please quote the passages in H.R. 4437 that singles out food banks and tutors.
Bihari Babu (77#)
Sarcasm apart, why do you think that legal immigrants should support illegal immegrants ?
To those who are comparing Mahatma Gandhi or civil disobedience with present issue are drawing a false analogy, it is a case of being intelletually lazy or disingenuous.
Further in all the threads about issue of illegal immigrants, hardly anyone who supports illegal immigrants has proposed any policy framework or guideline (the only on I remember was by Razeeb)for immigration. Seriously it is more and more like listening to angst ridden teenagers
Gaurav:
As I said, as an Indian, legal non-immigrant in the USA. i’m happy to watcgh the tamasha from my TV. I bet most Indians here are too.
most in the medical field are legal immigrants.. not illegal….but just responding to the comment that taz made above in the post…..
whether being legal you support the cause or not… just making a point…
b/c anti-illegal immigrant sentiment is ofter a cover for anti-immigrant sentiment, b/c brown faces can be swept up by la migra and have no way to prove that they’re indeed citizens (You’re passport is a fake! I don’t believe you!). b/c if we take illegal immigration for granted, we have to decide whether we’re better off with illegal immigrants with basic health and education or not. In general, there are good reasons to want illegals to be healthy and educated as well.
Bihari Babu (86#)
I am sorry I misread you. I thought you were supporting illegal immigrants out of altruist purposes However if cheaper services is your aim, doesn’t the correct way is to discuss the policies instead of out granting blanket amenesty everytime, because this approach sucks even as stopgap measures.
Regards
PS As a curiosity are you really bihari ??
props to brownfrown, tashie, and someone else.
Within every immigrant group there is a population (whether relatively large or small) which is affected by this issue. I think it’s great for organizations which represent these various immigrant groups to stand in solidarity, not only supporting their own but also supporting each other. I think it’s too bad that the group in the link Vikram posted has come together – I think they’re sadly misguided.
pk (#63):
Absolutely agreed.
razib (#35):
Sure. And if anyone thinks that these South Asian organizations are doing them a disservice by participating in these marches, perhaps they should get more involved with organizations that aren’t involved, or start their own, or join a counter-protest as an individual, just as so many others are joining the protests as individuals.
For the record, I have a problem with any organization (whether I agree with its ideals or not) claiming to represent the interests of every member of its group.
tashie, I have a question for you – could you please e-mail me?
Ennis(88#)
This is too broad a brush to paint those who disagree. Further it speaks to emotions and not the merits of the case.
This calls for a more balanced law (for example in case of visa violation) and enforcement and and not blanket amnesty.
Here is what I think, decide what kinds of immigration is beneficial for Amercians, frame your laws on that criteria and enforce it strictly. If certain kind of immigrants are desirable, why shouldn’t they be given incentive for going through the proper channel?
Also I think (I may be wrong here)providing health and education benefit at cost of citizens to illegal immigration, while they do not have to pay any taxes seems a little unfair.
Regards
Disclaimer : I am an Indian living in India (who may or may not emigrate in future)my interest is purely academic.
A question – where was the Latino support for South Asians when South Asians came under greater scrutiny after 9/11? Where was the Latino support for South Asians when Kerry campaigned against outsourcing? Was there heavy Latino support to come to the aid of tsunami victims or Pakistani earthquake victims? If you are going to support today’s rallies, you should at least demand a little in return for that support.
Plus, considering the large role of the Catholic Church in the Latino community, will those who are ever vigilant to keep church and state separate be willing to look the other way as the Catholic Church has a greater say in public policy?
Plus, be careful what you wish for – a guest worker program may sound good now. But it will not be limited to field hands, slaughter-house workers, and busboys. For those mutineers who hope to pursue a career in teaching – some schools (such as the Cleveland school district) already recruit math teachers from India. Hospitals recruit nurses from India and the Philippines. Every big business will soon say they will need “guest workers” for their industry. Ford, GM, and Chrysler may lobby to import labor to man their factories, since American labor will be too pricey, what with health insurance, pensions, and other benefits – which will likely not be available to guest workers. For those who wail against the corporate influence in American politics, a blanket amnesty and guest worker program would be a dream come true for big business.
The food-processing industry is a textbook example – it was always unglamorous, rough work, but as recently as 20 years ago a worker could support themselves with their earnings. But, companies like Tyson Foods and Perdue realized they could save a lot more if they brought in illegals, so they brought them in by the busload, and wages dropped. And if the illegals were to get out of line, by say demanding a better wage or working conditions, they could easily be undercut by another illegal.
Look, the illegals are answering a demand – a demand for cheap labor. But the level of demand is not a constant. If you increase the penalty for hiring illegals and you make it more likely that such penalties will be levied and enforced, you will see a drop in the demand for such labor (child labor is one such example). One of reasons some companies do not want to provide affordable day care for their female employees is that they know there is a large pool of poor illegal immigrant women who can provide such care – they do not have to. So the cost of such care is passed on to the worker, as is the breaking of the law.
I’m interested in this – how many people on this board interact with illegals on a regular basis where you are not receiving a benefit (such as cheap housekeeping or landscaping), but when you have to provide them a service? And if so, can you recoup your costs? If you work in a public hospital ER, a prison that houses a disproportionate number of illegals, or a school where kids show up, but then can disappear for months at a time. Also, does anyone on this board own a home or other property near a border town? I would imagine that your perspective would be quite different.
The Catholic Church ALWAYS has a say in any political issue, as does any organization, religious or not. As is their right. That has nothing to do with Establishment of Religion laws.
Actually, it’s part of the Fourteenth Amendment, ratified under questionable circumstances in 1868. And in case you aren’t particularly familiar with American Constitutional history, the Constitution can be amended, and amendments/clauses can be edited or repealed by future amendments (anyone remember prohibition?). So it’s not wholly out of the realm of possibility, and with some of the vitriol that’s being spread, on this site alone, it’s not entirely off the mark to raise it as one of the stakes if the anti-immigrant caucus grows. It has definitely been mentioned by more than just the reactionary fringe.
I’m actually not at all surprised that people are ambivalent, or worse, actively conservative on this blog. someone else put it best, and I think that some of the comments have alluded to the incredible level of entitlement that comes out in this kind of discussion. This site has always veered to the right, and the lack of objectivity in these posts makes it that much more clear (“well, I waited in line, boo-hoo-hoo”).
Oh, and cc, you are clearly not well-informed in this debate if you’re asking about the impending criminalisation of service providers who work with the undocumented. It may be best if you listen for a while, and learn before you write again.
“The Catholic Church ALWAYS has a say in any political issue, as does any organization, religious or not. As is their right. That has nothing to do with Establishment of Religion laws.”
No – religious groups have the right to practice their faith freely without government interference. But they are obligated to observe laws that may run counter to their religious beliefs. Access to abortion in Catholic-run hospitals is one such touchy issue. One of the objections to “faith-based intitiatives” is that it would allow religiously affiliated charities to discriminate among potential employees based upon religion.
Big point worth quoting. And this hiring by the corporations is done through sub-contractors so that they could effectively claim plausible denial.
Are there any marches planned against corporations who exploit the illegal workers? Or should there be a blanket amnesty for them as well? After all, some of these ‘undocumenteds’ are HAPPY to get the two dollars an hour. Right?
“Are there any marches planned against corporations who exploit the illegal workers?”
Unlikely – the moment such groups protest to improve wages and working conditions, these same companies will develop labor saving technologies that will make such workers unnecessary.
Fareed bhai (Zakaria) made a great point about how a guest worker program has the potential of creating a class of ‘Guest American’ not motivated to take part in america’s multicultural parade (however disfunctional it may be) similar to the Muslim guest worker populations in Europe who are unfortunately self-segregated from the ‘native’ population.
That being said, i think the seemingly knee-jerk reaction of activists South Asians to support our illegal brothers and sisters today come from a legitimate feeling of solidarity against the ugly nativist white forces in this country.
Like I said, in the Constitution.
Um, is it less of an Amendment if it’s ratified under “questionable circumstances?” Does it carry less force than the other Amendments? I don’t get the pertinance of “questionable” in this context.
Sure. Last time that happened was in 1992. It concerned congressional pay raises. Last time before that was in 1971. What a common practice. And lets not forget the hundreds of amendments every year that never get passed.
Yup, that was the one. The ONLY one.
No it’s not. Just NEARLY out of the realm of possibility. Someone as familiar with American Constitutional history like yourself should know that.
That’s why I said at the beginning, anyone who is worried about any silly bills proposing “that only those born of American citizens be granted American citizenship” could rest easy, because that provision is in the Constitution. I let the comment stand, because a) a bill would already be unconstitutional to begin with and so it would go nowhere, and b) I figured that the extreme difficulty of repealing amendments was such a well known fact, it went without saying. I see I was wrong.
I’m TRYING to learn, dude! I asked, where is the passage in the Sensenbrenner bill that targets food banks and tutors? I suppose I must be uninformed, so isn’t it your job to inform me? Am I supposed to take your word for it? Back it up. Quote the passage. If you don’t answer my question, I might come to the conclusion that one of us is indeed uninformed.
I knew that folks would start bringing up the african-americans marching with the minute men and the fact that the civil rights movement cannot be compared to what’s going on now. just to clarify and hopefully educate the shrill voices who will just try to drown me out with sensationalist, right-leaning rhetoric instead of reason, what i was trying to say in my post was:
civil disobedience can (and often is) a good thing for a healthy, active, evolving democracy. The lunch counter sit-ins and the Montgomery bus boycott (sparked by Rosa Parks refusing to sit in the back of the bus) were acts of civil disobedience. Those people were breaking the law. my ‘atheist’ commenter above seems to think that everything that happened during the CRM was legal. People reading this should be clear that many laws were broken because the people that were breaking them believed they were unjust.
People of color (and all marginalized people) should have solidarity with each other. The infighting that we see within our communities only hurts ourselves in the long term and makes our opposition / the people who don’t give a shit whether you’re legal or illegal or whatever, just that you’re brown and therefore a threat to ‘their way of life’ (and believe me there are plenty of those crazies around). It’s interesting (and so predictable) that someone posted the ‘black people marching with the racist minutemtn’ piece, since there was also a recent poll done saying that most african-americans support broad immigrant rights as human rights. But you don’t see THAT poll getting covered on Fox or even CNN. Also, what about all the AFrican-americans that will be out in the streets today as well, in solidarity? And what about african immigrants? My point is that the debate is not a black and white issue (pun intended) and it’s much more complex than ‘Black people are anti-immigrant’. There is a very active, insidiuous right wing that supports these conservative Black folks, and even Black folks don’t really put much stock in them as ‘representing’ the Black community.
my point about solidarity is two-fold, the second being easily summed up in the james baldwin quote to angela davis: ‘if they take you in the morning, they’ll be coming for us that night.’ As the privileged, ‘legal’ / citizens that we are, we have a responsibility to stand up for those that are less fortunate than us, not out of pity or condescension,but because by the grace of god there we may be someday. Their struggle is our struggle. Do you think the racist xenophobes in washington and elsewhere want to see YOu coming to their hometowns and marrying their kids and having their kids speak Hindi? Do you genuinely think that some of these folks wouldn’t think twicce about making all immigration illegal or controlling it more so that even less of us could come here and achieve the economic success that so many of us have?