…unless you’re a Bangladeshi Muslim Woman in the UK. Then it’s all good –
A BANGLADESHI woman who shook a baby boy so violently that he suffered brain damage walked free from court yesterday because a judge conceded that she did not know how to behave in the West.Rahella Khanom, 24, caused the five-month-old boy in her care to suffer fractures to his breast bone and ribs as she tried to rid him of evil spirits, Southwark Crown Court was told.
The injuries inflicted on the child over several weeks had caused one side of his brain to shrink. It was believed that the boy would have been screaming in agony for eight weeks because his injuries went untreated.
…The court was told that Khanom, a Muslim, did not understand that shaking a helpless baby would not exorcise an evil spirit.
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p>The judge issued a verdict which is almost its own caricature of a relativist, multiculturalist world gone astray –
the judge said that Khanom’s strong cultural and religious beliefs, and the fact that she had been forced by her husband to live in isolation since coming to Britain from Bangladesh, meant that there were exceptional circumstances in her case.
One can only imagine other, future defenses inspired by the socio-cultural isolation tank argument.
minority appeasement. Cangressi sthyle.
this is a very serious issue and a joke of a judgement. what did the liberal brit media make of it all?
what bulls*it!
people in the desh don’t know not to violently shake a baby? that’s crap. this just further perpetuates the wild barbarians perception people have of those not from the “advanced” west
I have to wonder what kind of precedent this sets as a “culturally-relative” defence against other crimes?
Just the usual appeasements for “honor killings”, “offensive cartoons”, school uniforms, banning toy pigs on people’s desks at the workplace. Nothing special…
This is crazy! The judge is saying that not shaking babies is a Western thing, unknown to the barbarians from the East; and that cultural differences are sufficient excuse for this kind of thing. The only thing in her defence could be that her husband-imposed isolation led her not to know where to turn for help.
I like how the reporter took it a step further and felt the need to include Muslim in the same sentence that ‘exorcise an evil spirit’ is written. (rolling eyes) Way to go on perpetuating. It’s so sad, shaking a baby to the point of disability is never ok…
I’d like to think the same wouldn’t fly in the U.S. – any thoughts?
This is almost bad as the excuse that muslims men in europe and australia use for all there rapes of local women. They say that the way women dress they got what the had coming. And of course the idiot liberal media try to bring up excuses for their behavior.
Could someone explain to me why Europe let into many backward muslims from places like Pakistan, bangdelash, and some of the backward arab conutries just cause they needed cheap labor. They are over billion people in China and over 900 million non-muslims in india who would have loved the chance to live in the west. And they would have being doing many of the stupid things that the educated muslims do.
like they say, the most harmful racists you will encounter nowadays are unlikely to be the neo-nazi types, but the ones who are closeted racists but pretend to be sensitive.
It’s because some Muslims here in the UK have specifically religiously-derived reasons for believing in possessions by evil spirits.
Its no perpetuation! Bangladeshis more so than other muslims do beleive in sprits blackmagic evil eye. Desi Media run commercials from Ajmeri Baba, Peer Syyed Sahib, etc have advertisements that target bangladeshis in particular. The accent, muslim women in saaris etc. Ajmeri also runs another ad targeting pukhtoons, so i guess he is going from west to east full sweep. Pundit maharaj, chamunda swami, nilavu jaylaxmi etc do the same in hindu communities. it aint generalization, tis what it is.
Jai, as far as I can see all beliefs in possession by evil spirits is religiously inspired, and is not exclusively Muslim,or bangladeshi.
Foxy,
Probably correct, but the point is that in this case the belief is specifically being derived from the person’s interpretation of Islam.
If this had also occurred amongst (random example) an evangelical Christian woman, who held this belief specifically because of her perspective of Christianity, the media would have mentioned her religious affiliation too.
The woman’s religious background, and her interpretation of her religion (rightly or wrongly), was the direct reason for her actions. I don’t see the controversy here with regards to mentioning this — it’s just stating a fact.
Hmmm. I’m not sure if such a black-and-white picture is really conducive. We had the same debate on this incident here. The article also mentions the severe stress she was under, having been brought over from Bangladesh and being ignored by her husband.
The judge foolishly attributed this to cultural differences, but should have used his brain a bit more to explore whether she was just blaming djinns in her baby instead of her husband, who maybe the real culprit in all this.
I concur. If the woman were Hindu, Christian or Wiccan, they would’ve mentioned that in the news story. I don’t think it’s “perpetuating”.
That is exactly what government officials in Amsterdam also feel now. Maybe somebody is finally realizing that these “culturally sensitive” ideas of the past have led to the current situation in Europe:
I dunno if it’s perpetuating a specific (Muslim) prejudice, but a “cultural sensistivity” can be (and is) deployed to perpetuate injustices in minority communities, and the image of minorities as “wild barbarians”
Another instance of idiocy related to sensitivity: A canadian judge gives a (south asian, muslim) man a lesser sentance for sodomizing his step? daughter – he was showing “cultural sensitiviy” in not raping her (because of the stigma attached in the community). Completely wrong! The baby shaking is very sad, and falls in the same category.
and Vikram, the thing in Amsterdam – women in some countries that have legalized prostitution are having trouble getting unemployment/welfare, if they refuse to enter into what are now “legitimate” sex-related occupations. Not sure about specifics, but idiocy in the same line as you’ve mentioned.
Cultural defense is indeed used and successful in the US. Usually to justify battering and wife-killing and letting murderers get away with manslaughter, or rapist get off because ‘the Hmong culture practices marriage-by-capture.’ Recently, cultural defense was raised by guy the Hmong immigrant in Wisconsin who killed six hunters — but he was found guilty. In 1991, a Chinese mother killed her son because he was born out of wedlock and unwanted by the father. The court cites expert testimony that she believed “that she was not exactly killing but, through death, both of them would be reunited in the next world where she could provide the kind of caring he didn’t get in this world.” She ultimately won a reduced charge of manslaughter and a mitigated sentance.
In the present case, of the Bangladeshi mother, and in the 1991 US — rather than look to ‘culture’, the courts ought to look at the subjective mental state of being all alone having to take care of a child in an isolated environment — this need not depend on ‘culture.’
I agree with all here that cultural defense is ridiculous — it assumes cultures are stagnant and would fall apart at the slightest touch of any outside critique. Cultural defense is used in the same way ‘temporary insanity’ and ‘heat of passion’ defenses are used — and while it pretends to show sensitivity to minority cultures, its really condescending and patronizing.
I’m sick of immigrants who refuse to intergate into there new country and I’m glad to see what Holland is doing with its backward newcomers.
Can anyone else tell me why these backward muslim problems don’t happen in the U.S as they do in Europe.
Being of punjabi sikh background I have seen some of the same problems, but not to the level as muslims. Yet I have no problem speaking out against the backward people in my community, I just wished the so-called moderate muslims what do the same.
I have a great idea for an educational campaign:
Ladies, when your babies are crying, it’s because they need a tonic, not because they have a djinn! Remember, babies are better stirred, not shaken.
Christian Scientists have been around for a long time:
Lots of other groups do the same, and are similarly protected:
PearlJamFan —
I could be wrong, but this baby-shaking was just one incident of such happenings in the muslim/bangladeshi community — my previous post gave several examples of similar problems in other immigrant communities. And I’m sure you’ve heard of new borns left in garbages by AMERICANS.
so cool down that racism just a tad.
funny
Expressa –
Yes there a several cases of problems in other communites. But just you can’t tell me that the problems of muslims living in the west are the same as other races.
I’m looking for some examples – there are multiple cases of White American Christians beating children to drive out demons in them. It happens all around.
I think it’s human interest to know the details of the story that they are reading.
But I would have thought that metioning that she was Bangladeshi would have been more racist, since ‘muslim’ is not a race.
I completely agree with PearlJamFan. People need to assimilate or go back to their original country. Keeping your culture is one thing, but to refuse to show your face for an ID? Stuff like that is ridiculous. The religion excuse is the worst thing in the world. How many times I’ve heard of people commiting horrible acts of violence because it’s their “relidion.” In my country law comes first!
PearlJamFan,
If you’re referrring to cartoons or headscarves or terrorism — whole ‘nother topic. I don’t want to rehash it here but these are a sample of my general sentiments about the cartoons. Other than those, and the racism that spins off, I think yes, the problems of muslims are indeed similar to those of other groups.
@ 26 But I would have thought that metioning that she was Bangladeshi would have been more racist, since ‘muslim’ is not a race.
well, neither is Bangladeshi, really. We’re an ethnicity. In fact, race isnt really anything — other than an artificial way to lump together groups of people to disparage them efficiently, conveniently. So, given this common purpose, both Muslims and Bangladeshis can be subject to racism, i’d say.
@ 6
i really doubt disabling the baby was the mother’s intent. American law looks very heavily at intent, especially for homicide, if the requisite mental state isn’t there, you can’t be convicted of the crime. i htink its entirely possible that a woman was so distraught that she didn’t realize her actions were harmful to her child. the problem is suggesting this lack of awareness is inherent in a culture.
funny
soooooooooooooooooooooooo not funny.
no this is a bit of indian/pakistani/bangladeshi problem.
white americans who do this may be tolerated my mainstream white american culture But in indian/pakistani/bangladeshi scenario they are accepted by mainstream cultures there. The number of people who beleive in superstition/supernatural is much less in white american culture sure you will be able to dig out some such stuff but walk around accross india and pakistan you see a different picture. You just need to flip thorough the advertisements like i mentioned before These people wouldnt be selling stuff if the buyers were not buying it.
But i have not seen a white dude on TV offering to get rid of evil spirits.
The pitch goes literaly like this
“Are you having difficulty in your business, your marriage, do you think it could be the work of evil spirit, call ajmeri baba he will resolve it in 8 days. Black majic evil sprits all will be removed” while this is being said they video they show is that an down on their luck couple, the man surrounded by papers and calculator not interested in his wife, then while they are talking about removal the man is shaking hands w/ another man marking a closed business deal, and heads to his wife for a hug.
I dont think any one can sell this to the mainstream white culture resorting to spirits. Tony Robbins does the same but he uses a different sales pitch. ie you will be athletic and rich if you are just motivated enough.
But TR does not advertise on US channels during prime time, its late night infomercial while ajmeri and others have small advertisements direct it towards housewives. They also have small advertisement in print
These things exist cause there is a market for these things in different societies. The market is the sucker who buys it.
shake it off
no that wouldnt be racist. also Bangladeshi is not a race in the traditional sense of race. What race are the rohingyas
75% of the American public believe in Angels. You don’t see such TV ads b/c the mainstream believes mainly in good spirits not bad.
I remember reading about that. Though am curious if the government forced any non-Christian/non-Atheist women into taking up a sex-related profession, since they(the govt) wouldn’t have to fear reprisals from those groups… cultural relativism again I think.
you are talking about a number some one mostlikely took in a survey. But when confronted w/ a problem i’ll bet 75% dont ask angels for help but take pragmatic steps to resolve them. sure they may pray and light a candle but thats about it.
that was funny.
clearly, this problem is not unique to Bangladeshis, Muslims, immigrants… “In America every year an estimated 1,200 – 1,400 children are shaken for whom treatment is sought.” http://www.dontshake.com
The moral of this story is that if you are an atheist or belong to a rational faith, you are SOL if you have to appear in court for any offense, as you do not have any kind of a religious excuse or crutch to fall back onto to get acquitted/excused. I wonder what the courts would do if somebody could come up with some obscure religious clause that prohibits them from paying taxes ? Now that might be an interesting experiment.
It can also be that get a lawyer who can sense the environment in a court. If your lawyer can estimate the likelyhoold of the judge/prosecutor buying arguements like those and he uses those to compe up w/ a defense or a bargain.
you are looking to “pentecostal” if you want to know about americans who accept lot of the demon possession bullshit. i didn’t say white because the cases i know of involved black american women, the case i recall is a woman who thought she was possessed by satan, so her “friend” gouged eyes out. the stories i saw reported went into detail about the pentecostal beliefs to explain what happened her (the woman without the eyes didn’t want to press charges, the moron actually thought a demon had possessed her and the lack of eyes helped somehow).
Are there any pentacostals in south india or NE?
seriously…my garndmu was catholic, and brought up by her roma auntie, and man….you wnat some wierd beliefs…..it’s more what family has tough, or ertain parts of society than a certain faith or place.
come to certain part of allentown, and whatnotennis dear, you’ll find all kinds of excuses used for beatings…and you’ll find alll kinds of people, including white, latino, black, etc. christians, athiests, etc. and you’re right – it does indeed happen all over.
and the minority appeasement thing also goes all over. heck, look at the food shelves in the gorcery store. you see two laungues on a lot fo stuff…if you’re lucky, 3…..that’s a real stretch…
re: primitive barbarians. many of the earlier immigrant groups were superstitious primitives when they came to modern countries. the key was that primitivity was not tolerated and it was slowly squeezed to death by assimilation to the mainstream culture. i’m not sure that’s totally true today. if the numbers of immigrant groups are small enough they still be swallowed…the problem is with an alternative cultural matrix emerges and is accepted by the mainstream. in the USA the amish, and christian scientists are examples. they basically get a “pass” from the legal authorities (christian scientists via legal sanction, amish through benign neglect) when it comes to issues that would rise to criminality in the case of other groups. but, both groups are not very numerous.
as for the comment about muslims in europe vs. USA, muslims in the USA skew toward being educated, and, they are ethnically diverse (that is, one ethnicity does not = muslim). in europe many of the nations have a dominant muslim ethnicities (eg., arab in france, turk in germany, pakistani in norway and ‘asian’ in the UK) which results in a coopting of ethnic and religious ties in the interests of group cohesion, and, they aren’t selection biased as strongly for education.
Razib – most of the faith healing xtians I’ve met have been white. They go to Africa, tell people not to take their anti-biotics if they have TB, or their AV if they have AIDS (I’ve walked right by them), because God will heal them but only if they believe. They also believe in what is known as the prosperity ministry, a literal interpretation of the bible passage that says “give and ye shall receive tenfold”. It’s not a small movement either. If you live in a red state, you see it more often than if you are in a blue state.
Razib – most of the faith healing xtians I’ve met have been white.
sure, the majority are white. but a large minority are not. the charismatic movement started out in the black american community and spread to the white community. i’m just pointing this out because when people say “white american” it seems to imply that trailer-trash magico-christianity is just limited to dumb crackers, when this is a strong commonality between lower class whites and blacks.
this isn’t about race, it’s about primitive beliefs in the modern world.
And it’s not just some fringe group – I have heard main stream evangelicals defend it on the radio. I wish I remembered the names more, but at the level of the oral roberts of the world … yes, he may be fringe to you, but not to America.
Gulab, you can find plenty of endorsement for superstitious nonsense in the mainstream American media; there was Miss Cleo hawking her spiritual powers on late-night cable TV a couple of years ago, and ‘psychics’ Sylvia Browne and John Edward are regularly invited onto daytime talk-shows. If anything, this sort of bullshit is should be less excusable in the most powerful and prosperous country in the world than it is on the Indian subcontinent; the denizens of the latter at least have the excuse of poverty and lack of education.
“The number of people who beleive in superstition/supernatural is much less in white american culture sure you will be able to dig out some such stuff but walk around accross india and pakistan you see a different picture.”
the claim can be made that all religions amount to a belief in superstition, so all religious societies (and America is one) are inherently superstitious. when it results in harm (and i know many atheists who think any belief in religion means you’re mentally unbalanced and doing yourself harm), then it’s a problem.
I do feel that its possible that the woman was totaly clueless. Most women dont want to kill their babies… This is why i dont think one should interpret this ruling as law doesnt apply to you if youre a bangladeshi. I think most cases where a mother accidentaly kills her child are where people make deals…. Its not like she was on drugs and baby cried and she threw it accross the floor or something the worst case is she was criminaly negligent and probably on the stupid side of general intelligence, and the judge gave her a pass.
In march i got a ticket unfairly and went to the court demanding trial(the prosecutor offered a no point ticket w/ a 450 fine i refused and he was shocked…apparently every one goes their for pleabargain). But i noticed 4 plea bargains were done for drunk driving, none for a desi dude, but if a desi dude got such a bargain is it law doesnt apply cause you are indian…. I am not a lawyer but any lawyers who have seen NJ courts please speak up… I was surprised to learn that a prosecutor does not even listen to what your situation was and immediately as you walk in offers a no point ticket… Is that a delran township thing only or all accross NJ This is my only run in w/ the law. Whats the situation on the other side of atlantic.
so sowellian
So when the President of the United States makes major foreign policy decisions based on prayer AND America doesn’t think its a problem …