Ever since I got my nano, I have been obsessed with downloading podcasts. Since there isn’t a Sepia Mutiny podcast for me to download (ahem) I do the next best thing and listen to a Desi Dilemma, a podcast by a woman named Smitha Radhakrishnan. This week’s series on ‘Desi Love’ perked my ear up- seeing as how the search for a ‘suitable mate’ is always at the forefront topic for most mutineers (or so it seems).
“There was a clear message from the Indian community about dating, that it was somehow inextricably linked with the most dangerous, scary thing that could befall an ABCD kid; an identity crisis.”
As has been mentioned before on this blog, as an ABCD youth one often had to deal with the projection by your peers that the only people you were expected to date is that one other desi in the school, even though you had nothing in common with them. Forget the fact that you weren’t allowed to date; if you had been, there was no one there for you to date, in the often confusing bi-cultural high school years. For me, this reminds me of senior prom. And prom reminds me of how my mother wouldn’t let me go to prom unless I went with my gay guy friend because only then would she know nothing would happen to me on prom night. How’s that for bi-cultural confusion?
Though in the realm of desi pride now, growing up there was also the conflict of trying to fit in and be as American as possible. I recently received the following e-mail:
I came to US at a young age, I faced discrimination from those who were born here… they acted like they were too good for me…Then as I made closer friendship with Americans to avoid all the bulls***t south Asians were giving, the new comers from south Asia started giving me the same crap. Eventually I became this “white boy” among SAs..Of course, I have learned to deal with such issues as I’ve grown up …But this question has always lingered in my mind… why do SAs hate each other? What makes US born’s better than those who come here? And how is it that those US born’s turn SAs so quickly during college years, and see those whom they disdained for being SA in the first place still as different?
Now that I’m older and in the ivory tower I can use big words like assimilation and racialization to analyze the divide in the generations, but really, when you’re just a kid in school, all you are trying to do is fit in. Being able to analyze this factor of bi-cultural identity now doesn’t make dating for a 20-something female any easier. In fact, knowing the internalized identity issues simply makes searching for love all the more confusing. There’s desi chick lit trying to manuever around it, and I regularly read a various group of blogs by single desi females all talking about similar issues. We are bombarded with desi dating websites, as well as pressure from family. Until that tab for Sepia Destiny is created, what’s a single girl got to do?
As Smitha asks in her podcast, and I’d like to further pose to you on this lazy Saturday afternoon,
“Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?”
i think at this point… my mom just wants me to get married to someone….anyone…well let me qualify that… anyone of the male persuasion. i’ve been threatening to adopt kids from india and turn into a super-single-super-hot-super-involved mom. needless to say… that has not been going over very well with her.
but alas… i am the same girl who blurted out that she was preganant [i wasn’t–not even close] during thanksgiving dinner just to see the look on her parents’ faces. SOOO FUNNY!!! 😉
actually do you have to be a rebel to be ‘alterna-desi?’ b/c i dont have much to rebel against…but i dont do indian dance… i barely speak hindi… and i’m the only indian sailor i know [i’ve been sailing competitively since i was 8]… oh and i don’t do SASA b/c all the kids were mean to me. so what does that make me? am i like a ‘loner-desi?’ or the ‘castout-desi?’ or my personal favorite… am i just another ‘coconut?’
I’ll admit that I have a slightly ‘fobby’ accent, due to the fact that English isn’t the official language here, so I have not been able to really cultivate a British or US accent(unlike the kids at International school!). Although, I don’t replace ‘W’ with ‘V’, and I most certainly don’t say ‘Amreeka’. 😉
All Mixed Up, I can’t dance either. It’s quite embarrassing actually. My movements are as wooden as a tree. I also don’t speak Hindi, and I can barely comprehend my mother tongue.
I’ll say though that for the most part I didn’t conciously rebel. I just set out to do what appealed to me, only to realise later that apparently society has certain expectations of what a ‘proper Indian’ should behave like.
muahaha i do things like that to my parents as well.
no i don’t think you have to rebel to be one! its not about rebelling than about actually exploring your personal interests. to some extent it is rooted in non-conformity, but its often not in a conscious rebellious kind of way…maybe we’re just more individualistic than our ‘mainstream’ desi brothers and sisters. haha all the kids were mean to me as well. i guess that’s where my deep-rooted ‘hate’ of all those dancing, bollywood, sasa types came from. one of my friends was talking to the president of our schools SAA (SASA) and said “really, what do you guys do besides dance?”
anyway we could start a whole post on the cliquey-ness pf those south asian student group members, but lets not.
Re: “…anyway we could start a whole post on the cliquey-ness pf those south asian student group members, but lets not…”
Tempting… must resist…
and I most certainly don’t say ‘Amreeka’
Am-reeka is the correct pronounciation.
Agreed! As a fellow Tamilian, I’ve definitely refered to anyone north of the four southern states as “North Indian.” How un-PC of me. 🙂
I prefer to refer to them as Afghans or Turks…
I personally prefer Harvey Mansfield’s definition of masculinity
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300106645/sr=8-1/qid=1145404236/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3088474-1978408?%5Fencoding=UTF8
Spare a thought for Hemingway, Achilles, Nehru and others who embodied a more traditional masculinity…
i was going to make a flippant remark about keeping quiet unless you want to remain celibate – but all those guys are dead and gone – who would be the embodiment of masculinity today – and a role model – for me it’s my dad – solid, decent, protector, funny, lousy fashion sense, lean-on-me, anti-metrosexual, pillar-of-strength-in-good-times-and-bad type – but i suspect you odnt know him. is there a male role model outside fiction we can all look up to – contemporary and not necessarily sepiate.
is this why movies and sports exist? to create deities where none exist? Oh… deep rickard induced thougts.
PropaMcGandhi- interesting that you (and esp. the women on the forum) choose not to respond to Reality Check’s latest post- I think he make a good point.
Janeofalltrades and Anupa- hitting on the hottest girl in the room is definitely a universally male trait, I hope you weren’t trying to imply it is a desi thing. 😉
Rama,
Are you referring to Reality Check’s point back in comment 125? If so: That, on average, men are expected to be the bread winner is true in all societies thus, I think, doesn’t really bear on the 1.5/2nd-generation male/female expecations differential dilemma.
But, to address it anyway: if the woman is having your child you’d damn well bring home the (turkey/veggie)bacon. And if she’s not, well, then we’ve stepped outside of the world of traditional gender roles and the whole question is moot.
if you’re refering to something else.. apologies! i lost track of this thread around comment 147 and just can’t not read for class again… anyone wanna give me a 5-line synopsis?
Anupa,
how do you do the crossing-out thingy on this????
espressa- I was referring to comment #201, which delves a little deeper than the question you’re answering.
Rama, While you thought “Reality Check”‘s made “a good point”, I don’t think very many other people who have been commenting did. In the interest of not starting another flame war on this thread that’s been a pretty open, constructive conversation, it’s best not to really get into it with someone who thinks
because really, what is there to say? Well, no, actually, there’s lots to say and PropaMcGandhi did a great job of saying it. Beyond that – whatevs, RC, whatevs.
I was being modestly facetious, though I often lament the death of the male “hero”. A solitary man, standing up against convention and oppression to rouse a people to greatness etc. etc. Though generally a leftist myself, I often feel that the post-modern left has destroyed the concept of heroism and greatness as a component of masculinity.
In terms of a non-fiction role model for masculinity, I suppose many men would look at their father. I certainly would.
Rama:
Sita is dead. Get over it.
RC’s been living a sheltered life. Plenty of women ‘keep’ guys, especially when they date younger men. None of the women I know want to marry rich, and most of my friends are with men who either make less or make around the same amount of money they do. Many women I know don’t even want to get married. They do the serial monogamy thing. Do you honestly think there are many women in the West who do not have to deal with paying their bills, married or not?
Dhaavak, Interesting point. And if there isn’t a “male” role model to look up to, maybe it’s because we’re waking up to how diverse and diffuse that category of “masculinity” is. No man can encapsulate all the possibilities. Are there men we can look up to? But of course. But a single persona that embodies “manliness” or “manhood”? Who gets to pick who that is? I don’t think it would be fair to say “isn’t there a female role model to look up to?” either because I certainly don’t want one woman dictating what being a “woman” is all about.
I think (thankfully), we’re moving beyond such simplistic gender definitions and paradigms. I konw a bunch of men I look up to – some are funny, some are stoic, some cry at every sad movie, some are rocks, some are leaners, some are straight, some are vegetarian, some cook a steak to perfection, some can do math, some are doctors, some dress like bums in a timewarp, some are artists, some know their politics, their movies, their fashion, their divas, their sports teams, their music, their theatre. All are bright and kind and sincere. How am I supposed to choose? I’ll spare you a parallel list for women, but you get the picture. We’ve got lots of role models – let’s not try and box them in as the last word in masculinity or femininity – it does both them and ourselves a disservice.
Some possible modern day embodiments of archetypical masculinity, who are public figures:
Frank Sinatra (though he’s dead) Edward R. Murrow (though he’s dead too) Rahul Dravid Vivan Richards (two cricketers) Pete Hammill Bill Clinton
its actually not easy to find, which highlights more than anything else, the denigration of the public figure
brownfrown- again interesting that you choose to avoid responding to RC’s comment #201 entirely by bringing up another comment of his, which I believe was made in the same sarcastic spirit as the “dude’s burden: don’t knock up that white chic” comment he was responding to. PropsMcGandhi did not respond to the post (#201) other than to make a joke about a spelling error, BTW. Care to enlighten us as to why yuo don’t think it is a good point since nobody else has?
this point, then. you’re/he’s suggesting that alterna- means artsy means not financially stable. that assumption belongs in a bust bin. desi chics i know are VERY successful and seek equally successful men. open-minded and creative doesn’t mean unemployed artist.
so.. i stand by to my initial dismissiveness toward these comments.
while “don’t knock up the white chic” was indeed somewhat sarcastic.. i stand by the principle. its a lot harder to carry the culture than the last name.
Rama, maybe you can explain the ‘point’ in the statement that women are not ‘stepping up’ to financial independence. All around you (I assume you are living in the West) is evidence to the contrary. Few women are unequal to financial independence these days.
i just read #168!!!! PMG — you are wonderful. it is SO great to hear a guy deliberate the same things we women do. but, you still have the advantage of a much kinda bio clock…. big props for you!!!
Amen! Yup, the bills are always there, and always a very real burden on my female shoulders. I’ve had to compromise, too.
Maybe the idea that women don’t have/share that burden is a little dated? I’m not saying that men don’t feel pressure to be financially stable and secure, but could it be that is now being tied to a concept of masculinity rather than having the burden of bringing home the bacon?
kinder (i got so excited i forgot to spell-check)
Refusing to engage with and “avoiding” are two different things. But here, since you’re so curious:
Huh? “Who are these women who are not stepping up for their own financial independence”? Friends of his? Do they inhabit some alternate universe, perhaps? Or a period piece drama he once watched about the sublimated homoerotic tension between two men, forced into each others’ arms thanks to their frigid and callous wives with penchents for expensive shoes and french perfume? Certainly no woman I know has or wants that “luxury”. Maybe he needs to step up and hang out with more empowered women – or at least show us some evidence – cite your sources, RC, and make sure they’re good.
metric ang –
Here’s my theory: ‘masculineÂ’ men, want to ‘bring home the (turkey/veggie)bacon.Â’ It is the core of the misogynistÂ’s worldview: women are weaker, both physically and financially thus need a man to be in the care of a man. A good strong man. Who will beat his chest and yell loudly about his house, his rules. This view comes into trouble when women stop complying with those ‘rulesÂ’ MisogynistÂ’s response? “How dare you take my money and refuse my rules!!”
Ladies, stand up with me. We donÂ’t need your money, honey. We have our own. What we need is a man like PMG and brownfrown (and others here, i’m sure) to walk with us, hold our hand, and we’ll figure things out together.
this thread has left me dazed..what do women want..can anyone answer this question..seems like now the arty farty bum artist is “IN”…earlier it was the metrosexual…a friend of mine is even into gay guys!!!…aaaah…..
for all this talk it’s always the alpha male self absorbed anti-feminist jock type who get the most play..go figure…
ok.. i’ll break my rule… fiction… my hero is rocky…
now how about that…
Rocky clearly takes the cake…
I have no clue in the matter, but to be pedantic, Rama could be female. It was also (as in Raama), one of the names of Draupadi
ok.. i’ll break my rule… fiction… my hero is rocky…
dhavaak,
I had promised myself that I would not comment on this thread. The promise still holds.
However, the scene from Rocky you described is one of the most beautiful from western cinema. Tarin, Tarin.
Back to work. Me know nothing.
Once again – change your social group or something if this is true. I don’t think I’ve ever been with an alpha male, an anti-feminist or a jock. Self-absorbed – okay yeah I’ve known the joys of that. As for “what women want” let’s not Cosmofy this discussion. We’re all too smart to even assume there’s some kind of singular answer to this already sort of ridiculous question. And hopefully we’re each of us more than just passing trends to be consumed by people who think we’re “in” or to be disgarded by those who think whatever we’re about is “out”.
This is a misconception b/c this is the type of male most likely to actually talk about his conquests. Ugh. I read an article recently that tested this misconception, and lo and behold – the artsy guys got the most “play”.
If this post has revealed anything, it’s that alterna-desi women have alot of appreciation/desire for their fellow alterna-desi men. This has not turned into a huge “all desi men are $%*&” rant that I’ve seen on other sites – which is awesome! 🙂 I truly don’t why Reality Check and a couple others got so bitter about their “$ burden”… or what it had to do with our man appreciation fest!
this will always be true. but getting play doesnt add up to good relationship. when girls talk about ‘what we want’ we’re talking about a relationship…. but when a girl just wants some…. well, whole ‘nother thing. i think the same works in the other direction. guys go for the hottest girl. but she’s (too often) not the one he’d bring home to mommy.
i would never suggest that relationships inspired by superficial attraction can’t work. just, in these kinds of discussions, you have a sampling error. you have the women who are looking for more, not the ones looking for a hook-up.
while most of us would propbably go for, say, this guy in a heartbeat… it’s not what we’re “looking” for.
confused desi guy
never!! i’ve got my sights set on a weak-looking, psuedo-hipster, nerd glasses-wearing, “economist” reading brown boy at the moment!
and to reality check; myself personally, i’m not going through all of this school just so i can get married and sit on my ass. any financial “shortcomings” should be addressed by you and the male-dominated corporate world. once i know that my pay isn’t any less just because i’m a woman then we can talk about women not stepping up to the plate.
there we go. let it out y’all who’re nodding out there.
your role models guys, let it out.
Oh god good yes. Why are we even debating this. Living in NYC I don’t know any golddiggers. I’ve been working my ass of since I was 15 for Christs sake, every single thing I own I bought for myself, I can’t even believe I have to still prove that the money is not what I’m after with a guy.
I can buy my own shit. I need you to carry it for me. I can pay my own rent. I hope you pay your own too. I can buy my own car. I need you to get it washed sometimes….I can’t believe we are even having this conversation especially on this board of all places where the majority of women are all independent 🙂
Oh my confused friend. Any guy that treats us well, respects us and likes us for who we are is in. He can be tall, short, stout, skinny, bald, hairy, handsome, average, smart, witty, shy, or nothing in partiular thing. Every one of us is as different as the men we like. We aren’t replacing heterosexual men with gay men don’t worry. We just happen to be gay friendly.
Oh come now thats crazy talk. Here is what Neil Chethik of Voicemale says.
espressa,
Yeah but that’s what kills us …basically the jocks/himbos get the sex WITHOUT the hard slog (the “relationship” if you will)…
most guys i know don’t want to be the guy brought home to mommy at all….even after the wedding … 🙂
consolation boys: you don’t get the hot casual sex ..instead..you get a lifelong commitment…oh whoppeee
anupa ..your digits ..:)
i told myself i wouldnt refresh…
ConfusedDesiGuy:
I didn’t mean to apologize for society. My point was simply that what may seem true of the whole is not true for the part, see, e.g. Anupa.
if ‘just sex’ is what you’re after, i’m sure you can find it.
C’mon… This is the city that inspired Candace Bushnell’s vapid vision.
Seriously though, most desi women I meet in the city are refreshingly independent and talented.
Yeah Hari but these are desi women we are talking about. Their parents aren’t letting them go anywhere without getting an education and well paying job or atleast something substantial. As badass as they want to be at the end of they the cultural burdent ensures they aren’t exactly air headed uneduated gold diggers. All the fluff is an afterthought.
Some of the points I’m about to make have already been said by some of my more eloquent sistas here, but I feel the need to chime in — solidarity, if you will.
First, the insinuation that women are not stepping up to the plate financially is completely asinine. I have been raised (by my uber conservative parents, no less) to push myself to be financially independent. My hope — no, assumption/goal — is that regardless of whom I marry, I would be making enough money to support my family singlehandedly. As someone else said, what the hell do you think we are all doing, increasing the numbers of women who are in graduate school? Sure, we might be there for intellectual gratification, but that advanced degree is going to come with a nice salary increase as well. When I realized that I tended to be attracted to men who did not have traditionally high-paying jobs, that only increased the pressure I put on myself to earn enough money. How stupid do we have to be to be into “poor” guys and then drop the financial ball? As if.
And regarding the idea that we’re into poor guys — pffft. Firstly, nobody on here said that we wanted artsy farsty guys — that was an assumption made by some of the guys. Secondly, why must artsy fartsy be equated with “bum” or “poor?” That’s an antiquated thought that I’d hear more readily from my parents, not my peers! I personally want someone who is creative, but that doesn’t mean a broke-ass scrub. A scientist can be creative, for crying out loud! Talk about stereotyping! I want a man who thinks for himself; I’d probably have a hard time being with a doctor who hates his job and only went to med school because his parents pressured him to do so. I want someone who is confident, well read, open minded, cultured, well traveled — a female version of me, really. And ME? I am not artsy fartsy, a commie, or broke!
But to play devil’s advocate for a moment, my guess is that the women who are posting on this thread probably have desi women friends who have similar mindsets. Birds of a feather, right? We have the luxury of believing that not only do we represent the best of desi women, but that we represent the majority of desi women. Not true, in my experience. I know plenty of Indian women who definitely want their man to be the breadwinner; who won’t get enaged without a fat rock on the finger; who got married in their early 20s, largely for financial security (and I hope love as well).
Wait a second. If it’s sex you are seeking thats way easy unless you are stuck in the corfields of Iowa. It’s the relationship shit that’s difficult.
CDG
Yes, you’re so right – that’s exactly what I see most of the women on this thread going for. I’m sorry you feel like you’re not turned into a piece of meat often enough. Perhaps you should try sharing these thoughts with your next lady-friend that you would like to bag without having to speak to ever again. Maybe, you’ll actually see her breathe a sigh of relief that she doesn’t have to spare you a second thought.
I’m sorry that the women who seem to be into you are interested in more than a roll in the hay. That must be really hard. You should maybe pick up some tricks from those jocks who you’re envious of. Don’t call back ever, hit on her sister, puke all over her new shoes, pick a bar brawl with the guy who accidentally brushed his arm against hers while reaching for the matches – I’m sure the ladies will be lined up around the block for a chance to get a piece of that action.
Calm down, CDG – we like the nerds – why don’t you believe it?
I guess that was what I was trying to say. The desi women I know in New York (most of them, at least), don’t fit the airhead gold-digger stereotype that is commonyl associated with the city at all
Whoa..estrogen minefield alert…
all I was doing was calling out the majority of women (in my experience) on what they “claim” to want verus who actually gets the pie …
apparently SM women are predominantly the non-superficial demographic..good on ya..
CDG — it’s no wonder you’re not getting the play you desire.
“Estrogen minefield alert?”
Try BRAINS minefiled alert!
er, minefield.
Sigh Girl…you have no idea.
Err I meant earlier “If it’s sex you are seeking thats way easy unless you are stuck in the corfields of Iowa.” (and this doesn’t apply to Rupa our resident tornado rider)
lacks that certain zing i think..
hmm…i thought i made my peace by exempting all SM women from the ditz sweepstakes…..mv ..still baying for my blood I see.. 🙂