Ever since I got my nano, I have been obsessed with downloading podcasts. Since there isn’t a Sepia Mutiny podcast for me to download (ahem) I do the next best thing and listen to a Desi Dilemma, a podcast by a woman named Smitha Radhakrishnan. This week’s series on ‘Desi Love’ perked my ear up- seeing as how the search for a ‘suitable mate’ is always at the forefront topic for most mutineers (or so it seems).
“There was a clear message from the Indian community about dating, that it was somehow inextricably linked with the most dangerous, scary thing that could befall an ABCD kid; an identity crisis.”
As has been mentioned before on this blog, as an ABCD youth one often had to deal with the projection by your peers that the only people you were expected to date is that one other desi in the school, even though you had nothing in common with them. Forget the fact that you weren’t allowed to date; if you had been, there was no one there for you to date, in the often confusing bi-cultural high school years. For me, this reminds me of senior prom. And prom reminds me of how my mother wouldn’t let me go to prom unless I went with my gay guy friend because only then would she know nothing would happen to me on prom night. How’s that for bi-cultural confusion?
Though in the realm of desi pride now, growing up there was also the conflict of trying to fit in and be as American as possible. I recently received the following e-mail:
I came to US at a young age, I faced discrimination from those who were born here… they acted like they were too good for me…Then as I made closer friendship with Americans to avoid all the bulls***t south Asians were giving, the new comers from south Asia started giving me the same crap. Eventually I became this “white boy” among SAs..Of course, I have learned to deal with such issues as I’ve grown up …But this question has always lingered in my mind… why do SAs hate each other? What makes US born’s better than those who come here? And how is it that those US born’s turn SAs so quickly during college years, and see those whom they disdained for being SA in the first place still as different?
Now that I’m older and in the ivory tower I can use big words like assimilation and racialization to analyze the divide in the generations, but really, when you’re just a kid in school, all you are trying to do is fit in. Being able to analyze this factor of bi-cultural identity now doesn’t make dating for a 20-something female any easier. In fact, knowing the internalized identity issues simply makes searching for love all the more confusing. There’s desi chick lit trying to manuever around it, and I regularly read a various group of blogs by single desi females all talking about similar issues. We are bombarded with desi dating websites, as well as pressure from family. Until that tab for Sepia Destiny is created, what’s a single girl got to do?
As Smitha asks in her podcast, and I’d like to further pose to you on this lazy Saturday afternoon,
“Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?”
i didnt read anyone’s comments so i can’t really comment on them.
BUT TAZ I TOTALLY LISTEN TO THAT PODCAST TOO!!!
i got really into podbazaar a couple months ago and they’ve got a lot of interesting stuff but desi dilemmas is what keeps me coming back!
hehehe i love that i’m not the only one who listens to her!
I think there’s some very deep-rooted cultural and familiar conditioning at work here, both with regards to the “messages” the women receive from their own mothers and older female relatives (especially before they got married themselves and were — in most cases — living at home with their own parents, although this often continues behind male backs for decades afterwards) and in terms of the “advice” and horror-story anecdotes which are passed around within their desi social circles (certainly with regards to the “aunties” and those from the grandmothers’ generation), all of which appear to have both a conscious and a subliminal impact.
It’s almost like watching the results of one of those stage hypnosis shows — where everything is normal until the hypnotist later says “the magic word”, and then some kind of internal switch flips and everything suddenly, totally unexpectedly, radically changes completely, with no prior warning or signs whatsoever. There’s such a total personality and attitude shift that I think that sometimes the women themselves can’t explain why they’re reacting & behaving that way.
I remember reading some on-line articles from some governmental social research source here in the UK which indicated that the “mother-in-law” issue, while occurring in multiple communities, is significantly more pronounced amongst South Asians here than in any other ethnic group.
*cultural and familiar conditioning
Apologies, that should say “familial“
i’ve been thinking about this topic for over three years–partly due to my own situation, partly due to the fact that i don’t understand alot of things that happen in the south asian american context. last month, i came to the very bizarre conclusion. I blame Bollywood. I know it sounds outlandish, but Bollywood is so infilitrated in my mind, in my parents mind, in everyone’s mind on what romance should/can be. Think about it–if a heterosexual couple falls in love without anyone assisting them, then there is bound to be fights (always.). If it is assisted, it’s rare that there is fighting. I dunno, I really think that this standard of love, romance, hate, relationships, expectations, to a certain degree comes from Bollywood.
I remember watching my first Bollywood movie. I was 12 and amma sat me down to watch “Dil.” Come on!!! Dil?? Do you remember that movie? I was OBSESSED with love being like that…hating each other, then falling madly in love, then drama with the rents, and then some sort of happiness. Of course there shall be dancing and singing in between! Of course!
I realize that art imitates life and life imitates art. As silly as it sounds, it helps me cope with not blaming people that I love for being irrational. This is my profound conclusion to some of my [dil]emma. 😉
Well, I just woke up so this isn’t a wine-fueled rant, but I am groggy if that counts for anything!
I spent most of my teens fighting with my parents and pretty much pushing them away as much as possible, so I can’t really make any claims of being a good doting desi son. But now that I’m a little older I’ve included them much more in my life and it’s become much easier to do so. I can count on one hand the number of times my parents (well, always my mum) have talked to me about marriage. I think part of it is their residual fear of me from those angsty years and part of it being that I’ve chosen a path for myself (career and otherwise) in life that confuses the hell outta’ them.
So in this aspect of my life my parents haven’t put very much overt pressure on me. Who knows, maybe when I was younger they would sneak into my bedroom at night while I was sleeping and gently whisper “marry desi… marry desi…” In any case, that’s the point I’ve come to in my life. I have a tendency to overanalyze everything to death (perhaps something many of us have in common?), but this one is absoultely beyond my grasp.
I don’t think it’s about not being able to see people as people or as being able to get beyond race. It’s that I don’t see love as some nebulous thing that floats around, I think it’s very much created by our experiences and expectations. Being desi has very much informed who I am and there’s that sense of mutual understanding that comes very easily with other desis who have chosen not-very-traditional paths. It’s also that I’ve constructed a transnational life for myself, flitting between India and the US, sometimes for a week or a month and sometimes for years at a time. It’s not that I think only desis will understand why I need to do this, and I certainly don’t think very many 2g desis need this for themselves. My community of people is the other manic transnationals, who feel belonging everywhere and no where.
Hm…
Jai you hit the nail on the head. I find that in older desi social circles often women will tell other women something totally outlandish and unrealistic they themselves don’t enjoy. “Go live with your son and DIL for 6 months it will do you good” type of advise is something they often realize is unreasonable but when it’s doled onto a woman she feels pressure to follow it or prove that she can.
The support system I find my parents enjoy is very different from the support system I enjoy. My friends are brutally honest and don’t blow any sunshine up my ass. They’ll tell me like it is including telling me I’m full of shit if it is the case or I’m being unreasonable or even selfish towards my parents. My parents peer group however offers them utter nonsense I realize. Their views about the “ideal family” are so out in the left field I wonder where they get it from in the first place because they themselves never enjoyed it with their own in-laws.
And I swear I can’t help but feel sometimes that in that older generation some level of insidious jealousy and resentment towards each other fuels the advise they offer each other. It’s like they don’t think twice about pushing someone into a fire and watching that person burn and then gloating and gossiping about it.
It’s funny because I’ve always thought a lot about how my parents opinions, decisions (and dictates) affected my life but I never really put much thought into how the decisions I was making in my life, romantically, careerwise, etc. affected them. After I officially revealed myself as an alterna-desi and started refusing to associate myself with the overbearing Bengali community I noticed that my parents group of friends changed as well. They can’t really (and I don’t think they ever enjoyed it) engage in the whose child is a more important neurosurgeon and drives a bigger SUV game, and they’ve also stopped being so involved in the politics of the Bengali community. I don’t know how directly what I’m doing with my life affected that, but I certainly do think it plays a part.
Doesn’t that question really depend on what your parents are like? b/c i have neuvo-indian parents who really don’t care that i date guys as long as i use good judgment. although… these are the same indian doctor parents who think i take birth control to help “regulate my cycle.” so i dunno what that really says about them…but they’ve pretty much liked every guy i’ve dated–most of whom are what i like to term “random white guys.” [“a random white guy” is a guy who seems to forget that you’re indian…and just treats you like a really tan white person–it gets old after a while–especially when you have to keep explaining why you do things the way you do]…but alas i digress…
my parents just want me to be happy and ultimately settle down with someone whose personality compliments my own.
i dont know if that makes sense… my ability to think clearly is waning…
Jane, you’re right – so many women in the older generation turn into wackos when they become mothers in law. It’s almost like a corporate promotion. As young women, they get the following idea, maybe: yes you’ll marry who we tell you to, yes you’ll be docile and do everything your hubby tells you to, yes you’ll sacrifice endlessly for your children, but at the end of it all – you’ll be able to terrorize everyone else!
dharma queen:
In reponse to Post 59, I have this question: How are things when your parents visit you, as opposed to things when your in-laws visit you?
I think I agree with chai partly for bollywood culture. But I blame indian parents who dont clearly understand the complexity of being indian. they never educate their kids. there is culture,tradition,customs and religion which are completely intermingled in an indian which quiet frankly a desi does not bother to differentiate because he is busy trying to fit in. so when the kids grow up, the only thing that they are bombarded with is bollywood stuff which quiet frankly does not re-present typical indian values. its a easy fix instead of spending time and money to educate the kids in their native language or culture. in fact I think speaking ones native(in india its mother tongue)language fluently would solve quiet a few problems as that would enable the kids to atleast connect with the relatives when in india or here, therby developing a bond with ones own. I have known fobs not even allowing their kids talk indian language in their homes as they were informed their english accents would change. Being a fob myself wondering whether my kids would have same issues as discussed here, I would like to start with language first.how many of you guys born here speak your native language fluently? I think once you start with language , one will better connect with ones culture and also understand the importance of keeping ones culture/traditions/customes alive. and one way to keep it alive is by marrying from same kind..
P.G. Wodehouse: I’m not sure what you’re asking? What do you mean ‘how are things?’ Besides which, I don’t have in laws. Please clarify.
Language is way too superficial to carry the weight of cultural baggage. It’s so many different things not just language that makes things complicated for ABDs. It’s the mixed messages inside and outside the home. It’s trying to juggle and balance our own expectations and our parents expectations and trying to fit in.
Do you really think that just because your kids will speak your language they will suddenly follow a path you choose for them and “marry their own kind”? I’d think you’d be in for a rude awakening if you think that simply teaching a language will make all the other cultural baggage go away for your children.
I don’t think this is very fair to my parent’s generation. Our parents were (and are) doing what they thought was best for us and for themselves and mostly what they thought would make life easier. And it starts from even before we were born. What name should they give their child? They could give their child a totally Anglicized name, or maybe a desi name that would be easy to pronounce by others, or totally disregard it and give their child a desi name and let prononciation be damned. A friend of mine was going through this very issue recently. So it’s not that our parents were out to make our lives difficult, it’s just that they are struggling with the very same issues we are.
Yeah, I totally agree, it’s much more complicated. Speaking another language creates another thing to worry about preserving.
Absolutely. It’s easy to blame parents for our screwups but at some point you gotta grow up and take responsibility for your own actions. Given the circumstances and the fact that they had no prior training (heck as if any parent has any prior training) they dealt with it in the way they knew best. I think a vast majority of the ABD generation albeit being conflicted has grown up to be extremely successful and has done very well. That speaks nothing but volumes of the good parenting they received.
My parents are pretty much the same. I’ve only had two boyfriends until now, both short-lived(I’m only 19, so younger than most on this site I think), both ‘random white guys’. My parents didn’t make an issue. I actually prefer these ‘random’ men, as you term them, because I really don’t feel like being reminded of my ‘heritage’ again and again, I just want a break…actually most of my friends just treat me like another white person, and I like it that way…
I just asked the question because most of the people who post here really seem to have a lot of issues with their family. I did have a huge discussion over pre-marital sex with my parents but in the end I think they’ve realised that I’m old and informed enough to decide on my own.
Meena:
“(I’m only 19, so younger than most on this site I think)”
Yup.
“I just want a break…actually most of my friends just treat me like another white person, and I like it that way…”
Sigh… I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt – I’m sure you didn’t actually mean to word this this way! I don’t want to sound all-knowing, but your feelings may change as you grow older. Then again, they might not…..
Brownfrown:
“And in this city, with a pretty tiny population of “alterna” desis, that’s not very easy to do. None of us have very many answers but it’s comforting to be around other people with questions and angst and seemingly functional yet totally bewildering double lives.”
Yes, and yes!!! You seem to have given a great deal of thought, and your comments show alot of depth and maturity. I appreciate this!
Meena,
It’s incredible to be young 🙂 you don’t always weight yourself down for what might be down the road. It may very well be that you will address all these issues as you get older. Or maybe not. It’s not the end of the world either ways.
As for your observation about everyone here having parental issues I don’t think that’s true. Everyone has parental issues, we all deal with it our own way but I don’t think anyone is losing sleep over it or feeling so burdened with it that they can’t function normally. Everyone is simply discussing it in this medium because there is a thread in common. We all are desi.
Juggling family is part of life. You can’t take a break from it and you can’t walk away from it hoping it will go away. It’s what makes us adults.
(shit I just had a strange “OMG I’ve turned into my mother” moment)
Meena,
Just wondering why, if you don’t like being reminded of your heritage, and want to be treated like ‘just another white person’, you are blogging here?
Please don’t read any criticism into this question – it just seems to me there must be some interest or need in engaging in these desi-only conversations. For me, there certainly is. I can honestly say that before last night’s cluster of wine-fuelled rants, I hadn’t any concrete sense that other people had IDENTICAL issues as mine. I have sympathetic non-desi friends, but they’re not coming from the same place.
“You’re not going to live with your family, you’re going to live with your lover. Why should you involve the older generation in such a decision, when you are the only one who has to live with it.”
This is the question that ran through my mind when I was a teenager. That was the time when I was constantly feuding with my parents (and I am talking hideous fights here), having sex for the first time, and being an all-around self-involved, rude brat. Now, in my mid-twenties, I am closer than ever with my parents (mom especially) and I have an overwhelming desire to be closer with my relatives, who mostly live in India.
Why involve my family or the older generation? I have many reasons why. One has to do with the way I grew up. I am an only child and my parents were the first people in their families to move to the US. None of our relatives moved here until 10 years ago! In that sense, we were very isolated from the rest of our family, even though we did our best to keep in touch. I don’t want to raise a family that way. I want my children to be close to their grandparents, to have frequent family gatherings, etc. In my ideal world, I would want to future husband to be close to my parents and vice versa. I would also love it if he could communicate with my family in India, whom I love dearly and who don’t speak English well. This is one primary reason I have considered marrying a desi guy — so that he could truly be a part of my family. I feel it is selfish to ask the older members of my family to make the extra effort to get to know a white guy, when I know they already have insecurities about not being able to speak English. Finally, I have been known to make bad choices in men, and quite honestly, I trust my mom to be able to tell me when someone is right or wrong for me. I have done my best to be honest with her about who I am; though she hates certain parts of my past (and my present!), I know that she understands me and knows what I need in a partner — maybe better than I do.
As for the “living with” part — I actually hope to have my parents move in with me when they are older, if it is feasible. So no, I will not marry a meat eater if that means my mom would not want to live in my house when she is too old or sick to take care of herself. I’m not going to marry an atheist who criticizes my parents for being orthodox Hindu.
I won’t let my parents make the decision for me, but after years of discounting their value and role in the issue of my marriage, I’m starting to change my views a bit. Just a bit 😉
Bobaiaa:
I’m fluent. And my parents made sure that I was. I grew up surrounded by white people in a very white town and my parents insisted we speak Bengali at home or they would pretend not to understand what my brother and I were saying. It worked. We went to Durga & Kali Pujas, learned how to do alpana, ate shorshey ilish with our hands, learned Rabrindrasangeet, went to India every other summer, learned how to tell people’s castes by their last names – the whole deal. My brother and I remain kind of obsessed with our Bengali roots but that doesn’t stop the angstyness…
Echoing JOAT, we can’t blame out parents for everything either, even though sometimes you have to wonder at what in fact, is their damage. Part of it is our own confusion as to what makes sense for us – no ready paradigm exists that seems to encapsulate all the things we identify with/as and wish for and embrace and reject – our identies are nebulous and so are our desires. So while we’re frustrated by familial pressure, I’m sure the families are just plain confused as to what it is that we want in the first place and why it seems so hard for us to find it and it be stable.
Meena – not to be patronizing even for a moment but I remember myself at 19. All I wanted was to date white bassplayers in punk bands, the more piercings the better – it was a fun time 🙂 My friends still treat me like I’m “white” and to be honest, until very recently, I used to forget that I’m a visible minority and stare blankly at people when they seemed surprised at certain things that I was into or said or did. That, along with my fascination with bass players is changing. dharma queen – are you out in western canada?
Milli,
I respect your honesty and the thought you’ve obviously put into this new turn in your life. I’m wondering, though, if you’re not just in the return cycle of a boomerang throw. Sounds like you’ve suffered through the isolation of being an only child (me too), plus an only desi child abroad (me too), plus some bad relationships (me too, dammit). So, you’re turning around and heading full speed into the desi model, thinking lots of family around and a desi guy who your parents like will solve everything. Consult Chandi above and others. It won’t solve everything.
Brownfrown ki khabor?
Was raised in Calgary, but am now in Montreal. You?
dharma queen ki?! well if you’re in montreal, sister, you’re in our “club”, like it or not 🙂
email me bikhini@yahoo.ca for deets because we want YOU. hehe.
dq — What I posted is just a snippet of what’s been running through my head lately. I wouldn’t say that I’m going full speed ahead with the traditional desi model at all (hard to communicate that via blog posts); but I guess what I’m saying is that I’m more open to aspects of that model, whereas in the past, I completely shunned it. Like brownfrown (my twin separated at birth?), I have dated my fair share of bass players and have more than a few piercings to show off. I’m an ex-raver for crying out loud!
You’re right to call it a boomerang. I’m suspicious of my own recent turn and am treading cautiously. To be honest, I don’t believe there is a desi guy out there for me. Beyond cultural and subcultural issues, I have met very few desi guys that I’ve been attracted to. Now that itself may be totally screwed up, but that’s just been my experience. If I upped and married some I-banker and was living in the suburbs, I wouldn’t trust myself not to run off with the hot and scruffy white cashier at the supermarket. 🙂 Kidding, kidding.
I know that I have a lot of growing up to do and need to find some peace with myself, my family, my personal goals and dreams. It’s just that for the first time, I feel confident that I will eventually reach a balance that leaves every party as happy as possible.
All my friends know me as the biggest hater. I can’t believe I’m posting this idealistic crap!
How about the fact that most ABCDs come from relative affluence, so breaking away (via a non-desi hook-up/marriage) carries something of a “disinheritance” threat?
How about the desi gays? What is the pattern there?
Neale
Lucky bastards!! Montreal is my fave Canuck city…. I’ve always wondered what it would be like living there, as a visible minority, and non-french last name. What I’ve heard from immigrant cab drivers scares me. I do love to visit though and travel around on the crazy colour-coded subway system!
“How about the desi gays?”
Good question about desi gays. I’m glad someone brought it up. Alot of people have suggested that you can’t be selfish and ride off into the sunset, but if you were gay, what choice would you have? Again, unless you have pretty open-minded parents, there is little ability to compromise here. Someone’s going to be unhappy.
OMG milli! I’m a total hater too! Seriously. I was commenting to someone that I’ve been cringing constantly while posting on this thread because I can’t believe I’m being this personal or daring to even be… optimistic, but that’s what this forum is for, huh? This is one of the most collectively personal threads I’ve read and it’s been a real pleasure to hear about your stories and very comforting to hear your various opinions.
Milli (cringing at personal revalations) I went through the “Oh for crying out loud – just get me an arranged marriage, it’ll take care of all the hassle” a few years ago and realised that uh, that was probably a little more than what I was asking for, really. Not only are there no guarantees on that end, you don’t even get to be dreamers together in the beginning, before it all turns to crap, haha. I like pragamatism as much as the next hater and am highly suspicious of ideals of “true love”, but I think that arranged marriages are just a little too contractual, no?
Milli – sounds like you know yourself well. Just don’t be too hard on yourself. We all make bad choices in men – ALL of us.
Oh god, do we ever. If I had a toonie for every… DQ – I’m always nervous about hotmail addresses – check your junkmail if you don’t see any new mail from names you don’t recognise 🙂
From what I understand, the arranged marriage thing is more like a fix-up for dating — it just happens to be done by your parents. I have talked it over with my mom, and she agrees that the only expectation is that I would be courteous to that person. We could date or never talk again, marry or not. So I would basically be asking my parents to set me up on blind dates. That’s no different, really, from using online dating sites or getting set up by friends. I am not having success meeting people on my own, why not expand the net, so to speak. The way things have gone, I’ll probably meet someone on my own (probably a white guy); but I do have friends that have actually met great people through this “arranged dating service” so I’m willing to give it a try. Again, there is no expectation on the part of my parents that I follow through to the point of marriage with any of the people they suggest. And my mom definitely knows the extent of my alterna-desi-ness.
The other plus I see to going along with this is that there’s a VERY good chance it WON’T work! And if that’s the case, at least my parents will witness firsthand that this system is not ideal for me. So I meet a few losers. Better than wasting time arguing with my parents that I don’t belong with a desi guy, because you never know, right? If it doesn’t work then they’ll have to be convinced once and for all that I should be left to my own devices. They’ve already resigned themselves to the fact that I’ll be marrying a white guy anyway.
Mmhm. Oh, I’ve been on those. And you’re right… it’s really no different from going out on any first, exploratory date. And the fact that they were (clearly) unsuccessful has both to do with, I think, our different outlooks and quite simply, my inability to drum up any kind of interest in someone I don’t really know all that well or have any kind of motivation to pursue this virtual stranger. But, I have to admit that the world “marriage” freaks me out too much to allow me to act with any degree of sanity on these dates in the first place.
Like anything else, I guess it’s all about the luck of the draw and remembering that what Vikram (my friend and I took to nicknaming any “arranged boy” Vikram,) may not actually always be telling his mom or his aunty or his biodata the whole story in the first place – so really, you could luck out big and he could in fact be a lot more interesting than his profile might suggest. I’ve seen some very happy couples come out of this arrangement too and I really don’t knock it, especially if you have a clear idea of what you want and what you don’t.
For reasons of scale, I understand that the alternative is usually a “white guy” – but just be open-minded about all ethnicities (I’m sure you guys are – I’m just stating this to be very clear). If you don’t find the brown alterna-boy of your dreams, you may find an awesome guy from another background who isn’t white. That’s the beauty of living in a multi-cultural society.
see its only a fix-up for dating or arranged dating if you’re in on the arrangement… it definitely takes a nasty turn when you are in india and all of a sudden young men just happen to be coming to the house for chai… then, its not fun. it’s not fun when random men start emailing you or their parents email you for a picture. i honestly feel that no one knows me better than my parents so if they happen to find out about some nice guy that they think i’ll like… i’m all about it, but for the love of god–WOULD YOU TELL THE PERSON BEFORE YOU START MAKING INQUIRIES!!!!
incidently milli, i LOVE the term “alterna-desi-ness!!!!” it’s great.
meena, i feel like you’re getting a lot of flak for what you said about wanting to just blend. if i look at my 19 year old self, she’s nodding her head in agreement with you. i remember just wishing i was white when i was younger b/c i felt like everything is just easier. i didn’t [and still don’t] like being seen as a walking talking version of ‘wiki-india’ who was expected to know everything about a nation of 1 billion people. but that feeling changed over time. i love my desi-self. i love the fact that i have a rich cultural heritage and so much history to reflect upon. incidently, you must have pretty modern parents to think that you’re old enough to decide on your own. the closest i’ve ever gotten to a conversation about sex with my parents [i’m 25 and they’re both doctors] is “hand holding leads to sex.” when i heard that i just burst out laughing and walked out of the room. 🙂
anyways meena feel free to email me any time cusailgurl(at)yahoo.com
All Mixed Up — I’m too much of a hater to ever laugh out loud, but I must admit that your post did cause a chuckle or two to escape from my lips!
Brownfrown (and everyone) — I’m relatively new to this site. Or rather, not the site, but actually taking the time to post and read comments. Is this really the first time such an open discussion has come up? I have to say again that I am SO relieved to read about other people’s struggles with these issues, whether they be similar to mine or not.
Wish I had more desi (girl)friends who lived in my area that I could talk about this stuff with. All my best desi friends are boys with parents who could care less about who they date or marry! But of course.
“meena, i feel like you’re getting a lot of flak for what you said about wanting to just blend.”
I don’t think she got alot of flak. I think it’s the very fact that many commenters felt sort of the same at 19 is the reason why some have mentioned your feelings might change as you get older…. without being all “been there, done that” about it. But just in case, I hope you don’t feel (patronized) that way Meena. 🙂
DAMN. I’m 26. My parents still think I’m asexual. In fact, reading through the comments, what about the “secret boyfriend” phenom in desi kids? I dated a guy for 2.5 years that my parents didn’t know about. It was just too much potential drama, I didn’t want to have to deal with that hurdle unless the dude was really worth it (which he proved later he wasn’t- ‘nother story, ‘nother blog)I know I couldn’t have been the only one on this thread keeping secret other lives into their mid-20s.
I liked reading the thread on the “alterno-desi” – I feel similar…it’s interesting to see how the mainstream desis go for marrying other desis, and the alterno-desis go through this whole self-identity discovery process to realized that they want to date desis too, but for entirely different reasons.
I like how this thread on dating turned towards talking about family…kinda shows in some subliminal way how important family really is.
Speaking as a dope-ass desi woman that knows a lot of other dope-ass desi women, does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more “alterno-desi” girls, then there are “alterno-desi” guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?
I’m glad someone out there is listening to Desi Dilemma too!
“Speaking as a dope-ass desi woman that knows a lot of other dope-ass desi women, does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more “alterno-desi” girls, then there are “alterno-desi” guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?”
Yeah, that’s interesting, innit? I can’t verify if that’s true or not, but it seems to be a trend. Maybe being the preferred sex in many desi families, they have it somewhat better, and maybe (just a theory here) less likely to rebel???
Alterna-desi guys do exist, even if not in outward appearance. Wouldn’t Abhi and Manish and a few other posters (PropaMcGandhi – bestnameever) qualify?
“does anyone else feel like there is a shortage of the equally dope-ass desi guys out there? i.e. there seems to be a lot more “alterno-desi” girls, then there are “alterno-desi” guys? Anyone else have a theory on this trend?”
Taz, I was going to post this exact same question, except I have the opposite take! I’ve lived in two relatively multi-culti cities, and when I was a teenager, there was a dearth of dope-ass desis, in general. I am still the first person in my community to have sex, do drugs, have piercings, shave my head, go to undergound parties etc etc oh what a bad girl I was. Anyhoo. These days, I roll with a pretty multi-culti crew where actually half of us are desi. I’m the only girl. I feel like I’ve met a LOT of alterna-desi boys (not that I’ve been attracted to them, or that they’ve been single) and very rarely do I meet similar girls. What is up?
OK! Must stop procrastinating!! Damn you guys 🙂
OK, here I go again. Very interesting to read about return-to-dating-desis kind of situation. Having seen my parents’ arranged marriage last for 44 years while mine didn’t even make it to the end of the decade, I wonder about these things–also because I will be raising a daughter in this culture. I think one way of finding, locating, and expressing identity is to return to the community. The comfort of not having to explain every ritual, mannerism, cultural reflex is also huge. BUT, don’t undermine the part of you that has grown up expecting a romantic, companionate core to a relationship. Funny thing is, you can’t be sure where it will come from, the friendship that is. My parents have a wonderful companionship, a genuine respect for each other. It can happen through any means, in any institution, and can fail to happen in a ‘love match.’ Another problem with arranged marriages, and I am by no means close-minded about it, is that the grounds of negotiation is sometimes different. It’s, well, more cultural and pragmatic than you want it to be. It’s not always based on your primacy as the other half of an equal partnership. Can you stand that? And back to chai’s comment# 54. It’s really true. As my father once put it disgustedly to my more excitable younger brother, “hum apke hain kaun has totally ruined you and your imagination.” So even though he is somewhat traditional, he thinks Bollywood paints an unrealistic picture of the harmony in families. Families also oppress, silence, and perpetuate terrible gender stereotypes. It’s a painful negotiation with them and even though I am committed to family, there is a certain amount of ‘traditional’ crap, old mother-in-law tapes for instance, that we should and must collectively throw out of the window. They are ridiculous and disrespectful and putting up with things like that in the name of culture is a misguided product of a multicultural logic of US society, ie. ‘culture’ as exoticized, ahistorical, unchanging set of practices helps you express your identity. I’ve learnt to be more open about my feminist beliefs and I always remind people who talk is simple dichotomies that I learnt most of it in India. And I will add, that families and people who love you, also evolve and grow and change with you (as my parents have) in the best case.
“And I will add, that families and people who love you, also evolve and grow and change with you (as my parents have) in the best case.”
Well said. Mine certainly has.
Milli I’m also too new to this site to really know, but it certainly feels like the first really open discussion I’ve participated in.
Meena I want to second what Milli’s already said – I hear you, and my 19 year old self is also wondering why the hell these people are this obsessed with their browness, alterna or otherwise.
AllMixedUp Oh. God. I especially liked when I got a letter from my parents in the mail and I was all excited, only to open it and find… a smiling picture of some man I’d never laid eyes on and a thick biodata outlining his many illustrious years working for a US arms manufacturing company. Sweet.
Taz Thanks for starting this thread, first off. Secondly, I think the dopeass gender imbalance might have something to do with privilage. When you’re a man who (as Milli has pointed out) can date whomever you want with a lot more ease, wear what you want, come and go as you please, and somehow automatically have a weight to your words that many of our sistas have had to fight for (consciously or not), the same motivation to be critical and dope just aren’t there. So saying, I do know a few pretty dope boys and SM has a good share of them – many of whose posts I read with much interest and some of whom I have been inspired by. It’s not easy being a brown woman, but it’s not easy being a critical, feminist brown man either and I give props to those of you out there who are 🙂
Neale, I’ve been wondering about the queer brown thing too – and I wonder if this a queer-positive enough space for queer desis to post? I’d be interested to know about that particular struggle too. And I bet there are a lot of dopeass boys and girls among ya.
Ooh. Been there, done that with one serious one. I was away at college, very easy to hide your lifestyle from your p-units.
It was just awful though. I felt so guilty anytime I was even with my parents because I was constantly reminded of what a liar I was. I knew it would break my mom’s heart to find out. I ended it, only partly because he wasn’t worth it, but also because we were getting serious and I met his parents, and he just didn’t understand why I had to keep him a secret. He was compliant with my wishes of course but I think he was just confused by the whole thing. Towards the end it came up a lot and I think that strain contributed to the end of the relationship as well.
To be honest, there were feelings of sadness, etc upon first breaking up but mostly an overwhelming sense of relief that I didn’t have to keep lying anymore. At that time I first made the decision that I wanted someone Indian just to keep the peace in my family (I felt like my parents sacrificed so much for us kids, I could at least do that much for them). I didn’t really date anyone for a long time after that, just because, well…when you restrict yourself to brown men, it’s a matter of numbers!
I’m a little older now but my reasons for going brown are a little different: it’s a matter of personal connection, mutual understanding etc. Also, I want someone who my family can accept and get close to. Of course it’s easy for me to say all this right now when I’m at a time in my life when I’d rather be single, who knows what will happen in the next 10 years, but the real deal-maker for me is this: My cultural heritage is very important to me and if I did meet a non-desi who rocked my world, I know that he would have to learn about and respect my culture if I were to consider marrying him etc.
(I don’t think this is a purely desi phenomenon either — it applies to any 1st genner. My best friend is Spanish-Filipina and she says she wants either a Filipino or someone who can learn and appreciate her culture, because it’s that important to her.)
Oh yeah and as for the secret bf – whatchyatalkin’ about Taz? They’re all secret. Like I need that kind of trouble. Even if they’ve come to pick me up at my house they’re always “just a friend mom, sheesh”.
I stopped hiding my boyfriends from my mom around age 22. I never totally kept them a secret — always need some Mom love when I had a broken heart — but I started actually discussing my relationships with my mom, and she met (and liked!) my last serious boyfriend. Being open with her was so hard at first. Her first reaction was “I don’t want to know about it.” And of course, she thinks I am a virgin and will call me at least four times a year to confirm that fact. It’s the one lie I tell to her. But I am upfront about drinking and drug use, and tell her when I am dating someone new. It has really strengthened our relationship. She has given me some of the best advice during rough patches in relationships. I’m single now, but she’ll ask me every now and then if I’m dating anyone or if I’ve met anyone interesting. It’s cute 🙂 We went through MANY years of fighting over my dating life, but she’s really come around. It never ceases to amaze me.
randomly,
right now the biggest advocate for me dating desi guys… is ironically not my parents but my 21 year old brother. he thinks that half the reason my relationships don’t work out is b/c i don’t try hard enough to meet indian guys so i end up settling for white guys. we’ve been warring about this particular topic for a couple months now.
i was just wondering if anyone else is getting pressure date within their community from someone other than their parents?
Rupa, i’m getting to that point now. i dont want to end up with a non-desi who can’t deal with being a minority from time to time [i.e. when we attend some desi event] or who can’t understand things about my culture/heritage or why its important to me to visit india as much as possible, etc.
I love Desi Dilemmas and was super pleased to see this post. Yay Smitha, yay Taz, and yay Desi Dilemmas.
YES. I think this isn’t desi-specific, though. I think, in general, there are way more dope-ass women than men. You see this phenomena everywhere in social justice organizing and alterno/hipster circles. Also, when you do get guys who seem cool, how many of them end up being totally sleazy in their dating & gender politics? Not to be the flag-bearer for the bitter parade, but I will be floored the day I meet a critical mass of bomb ass, totally legit, live it like you say it, alterno (desi or otherwise) guys.
But maybe part of this is that I (unconsciously) look for people who kind of “signify” alterno-ness. MAYBE there is a little alterno-desi personality hiding behind some J-Crew/Gap sweater somewhere that I’m totally writing off b/c he doesn’t look hipster at first pass.
i’ve got a theory. it applies to all immigrant communities. its a version of the dual minority dilemma (which is my favorite dilemma). every parent has to deal with the generational gap, the fears and the unknown that come with time — the “when i was your age” blah blah and all the misunderstandings and miscommunications inherent in this ever-changing pop culture. it must be tough to raise children in a world thatÂ’s different from what you remember…
but immigrant parents have to deal with an extra set of complications: an unfamiliar culture, an unfriendly society, a menacing melting pot. no one wants to get lost in the melting pot. to our immigrant parents, preserving desi culture is crucial. but while society is changing back on the Sub Continent, most of our parents are clinging to the culture as it was at the time they left.
so, while raising us here and now, they’re trying to preserve the culture back there, back then. and the key to cultural preservation, to survival (yes, we’re like a species) is babies. our babies.
in most societies, the task of raising children falls primarily to the mother. we will teach them our values, our language, our religion… etc. to do that properly, we (women) must be steeped in these things. we have to be perfect. thus 1.5 and 2nd generation girls are expected to be the personification of all things desi, so that she may bat her large black eyes and seduce the mother-in-law whose son will mold her desiness into the child that will carry the culture into the next generation.
all the son need to is not get some other chic pregnant. because in most societies, while the woman carries the culture, the man carries legitimacy. so the woman can be perfect, but she cant do anything with all her perfectness until a man agrees to legitimate her with his sperm.
so. woman’s burden: be PERFECT in the eyes of the future mother-in-law. the dude’s burden: don’t knock up that white chic.
I think its this difference in burden that yields the imbalance between dope-ass girls and boys. Having heavier expectations forced on us from a younger age, I think girls just have more experience confronting issues of self identity v cultural identity.
and, i think, its that (what?) knowledge of self, determination thats brings the dope-ass-ness.
Honestly how many parents in the west with usually 1 – 3 kids would really disown their children? Majority of the ABD’s are successful and have done well for themselves. At some point it kicks into the parents no matter how much the kid has crewed up as a teenager. Hell mine did a 180. At some point as they grow old and feel the natural pull towards their children it all comes in full cycle. I’ve seen friends who were disowned by parents because they choose to get married after being together for nearly 13 years (he’s muslim, she’s hindu). Now two kids later the parents came around and are just fine.
Perhaps I’m idealistic but I don’t think the “financial” pull is what brings most kids back or makes them compromise. I’d like to believe that it is still about wanting a happy family and making peace with them. It is possible that the financial pull is larger in India where people aren’t totally truly independent? I could be wrong.
Absolutely. I’ve seen this with my own parents where I once thought it was something I couldn’t even fathom. My parents surprise me sometimes. The fact that after being divorced for 25 years they have come to be friends respect each other and my mom and stepmom are now friends and sat side by side at my stepgrandfather’s funeral recently sans my dad was something I couldn’t have imagined in my wildest dreams. I failed to give my parents the benefit of the doubt in the past and they proved me wrong every step of the way.
Speaking of alterna desis I think there is one thing when it comes to “parents know best” and “an arranged situation isn’t so bad” that no one is speaking about. Sex. Why is it that more ABD men will go to India and get married and have no issues but women won’t do it? Especially after they’ve tasted freedom here and pretty much dated and screwed anyone they wanted to?
Because I strongly think that women who have tasted that freedom prefer to test drive their “Vikrams” whereas men don’t care about that notion because the pressure to measure up and please and perform still falls on the guys and not women. Women can learn. This only dawned on me recently when I was having a discussion with my friend John who is considering going to India to get married because he wants to marry within his community and hasn’t found someone he’d like to marry on his own yet. When I brought up the sex issue his take was “She’s from India she hasn’t been around like the girls here and doesn’t know better, and she’s a woman how hard can it be to please her?”
Our parents didn’t know better, I think our generation in the west does. But I don’t know if desi women in India are so clueless.