The Gangs of Vancouver

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A recent poll in Vancouver suggests that many residents blame South Asians in general and Indo-Canadians specifically for the violence and crime in their city:

According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.

Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Asian/Oriental,” the newspaper reported March 16.

By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.”

An Ipsos Reid spokesman said people were allowed to give more than one racial group in their answers, and all the responses were gathered into groups that best reflected the responses. [Link]

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p>The reality, as you will see below, is different from perceptions, but in issues such as crime it rarely matters. Indo-Canadians may cite this poll as evidence that they are the victims of a racist Canadian society. Playing the victim will of course help to delay the need to change their community from within and will leave many parents in their state of denial. On the other side you may see an increase in hate crimes against Indo-Canadians.

…in an interview, Vancouver Police Insp. Kash Heed, commanding officer of the department’s district 3 — southeast Vancouver — said actual statistics show the reverse of the poll findings.

“In the Lower Mainland, the majority of crimes are committed by Caucasians,” he said.

“That’s a true figure, it’s a reliable and valid figure based simply on arrest statistics.”

He said public perceptions are swayed by media coverage of criminal events, including the Air India bombing, which involve members of South Asian and Sikh communities. [Link]

Regardless of the accurate statistics, nobody can deny that many Indo-Canadian youths are out of control. Stories like the following seem to have become all too common in Canadian media and are disturbing even given the media bias:

Everyone was having a good time until the fight began and someone started shooting. When a 29-year-old Surrey man exchanged insults with four young Indo-Canadian men at Garry T’s pub at 72 Avenue and Scott Road, the confrontation escalated and one of the Indo-Canadians produced a handgun and started shooting, inflicting multiple wounds – one of them fatal. The Dec. 8, 2005 incident is just one of many in Surrey and other Lower Mainland communities where a gunfight has erupted in a public place, with bullets being sprayed indiscriminately with no concern for innocent bystanders.

According to police, the number of shooting incidents nearly doubled last year, fuelled by a “bad boy” mentality that sees young men with no criminal past packing handguns to bolster a tough-guy image.

As a result, disputes that would have ended in a fistfight or an exchange of insults are turning into potentially fatal encounters… Everyone was having a good time until the fight began and someone started shooting. [Link]

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p>The Canadian government has now formed a federal task force to address the problem of Indo-Canadian violence. The task force has advocated sending in a team that is to act much like a United Nations peacekeeping force:

The proposed emergency conflict resolution team, to consist of family members, former gang associates and social and religious leaders, would be dispatched to “hot” spots between “warring parties” to try to resolve conflicts in a non-violent manner, the task force suggests.

“We understand this type of initiative has been implemented in other cities with success.”

The bold recommendation was one of many in a wide-ranging, comprehensive report that says misguided family and cultural values are a chief cause of the disputes that have killed more than 100 Indo-Canadian males, almost all in their 20s, during the past 15 years.

The report, by 10 Indo-Canadian professionals, many of them social workers, was commissioned by then federal Liberal cabinet minister Raymond Chan and completed Nov. 30. [Link]

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p>Earlier today a SM commenter asked why is there such a difference between American and Canadian South Asian youth. The short answer I believe (readers can feel free to offer their own theories) lies in first seeing that Canada seems to be a hybrid between the degree of assimilation we see in England (very little) vs. the U.S. (very much). For South Asians living in the U.S., some of our brothers and sisters north of the border serve as canaries in the coal mine. In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit. This becomes even truer past the age of about 25. We have grown up lightly pressured by our own friends, of the same ethnic/cultural background as ourselves, to assimilate to a degree and not get caught up in brown on brown drama. The presence of wannabe thugs at your party is guaranteed to be a turn-off to all the South Asian friends I have ever hung out with at least.

“Many South Asian parents believe that ‘old ways’ of parenting are effective and acceptable,” the report said.

“In the Canadian context, these ways can contribute to children disconnecting from their home and family environment.”

Such a program, while not blaming parents, would help break “the myths and taboos they may hold about parenting in Western culture.”

A final recommendation is for a media watchdog to monitor the role of the media in stereotyping Indo-Canadians. [Link]

127 thoughts on “The Gangs of Vancouver”

  1. I’ve noticed alot of outlandish “Sun” type stories coming from the area.

    This was the Sun’s stock in trade and I think that has had a part to play in this whole phenomenon

  2. be careful about generalizing this as an Indo-Canadian phenomenon. It seems localized to Vancouver. If you did a poll in Toronto asking what ethnic group was associated with crime, I suspect Indo-Canadians would rank somewhere between Lithuanians and Martians.

    ramster’s right.

  3. He says that the parents generation are in complete denial and are not doing enough to address the issues, and that they are too stuck in their authoritarian attitudes to deal with the crisis.

    totally. this is almost the whole problem right here. too bad now the cow’s out of the barn

  4. I have another question for the Canadians on this thread. I have always had the impression that the divorce rate among South Asians is higher in Canada than in the U.S., especially in Western Canada. Is there any truth to this or is this a false impression? Are there more “broken homes” in the Vancouver area that might contribute to this?

  5. I have always had the impression that the divorce rate among South Asians is higher in Canada than in the U.S., especially in Western Canada.

    where did you get that impression? — not that i’m canadian)

  6. where did you get that impression? — not that i’m canadian)

    Friends, aquaintances, second-hand, all circumstantial but consistent. I thought I’d just ask the Canadians.

  8. Dhavaak – yes, we have a revolving restaurant – lol – any reason for your inquiry?

    oh nothing… i might have a biz trip over and someone suggested i check that out just for kicks – i hope we’re still on for your trip to the big smoke – lingus was kind enough to send out an invite for a little soiree the other day… this photo is not she, but a good time was had by all.

  9. I can’t speak for Western Canada but not as much with the first generation on the East side. Second generation,with tamils, the odds are quite low- the taboo is pretty strongly present and carried on for the most part.

    I can’t say much for the Punjabi second generation though- any other Canadian out here who has an idea?

    From my experience, limited one mind you, we’ve known of more ‘broken’ homes south of the border than here. Also, the least likely divorces in my extended family/large brown family friends circle, are those between browns and whites.

    Overall, I’d say Abhi that that has been a myth from my experience.

  10. From Abhi’s original post, taken from the Sun newspaper “When a 29-year-old Surrey man exchanged insults with four young Indo-Canadian men at Garry TÂ’s pub at 72”.

    Right there we can see a potential bias in the reporting of that paper. A Surrey man vs. four Indo-Canadian men? Weren’t they ALL Surrey men?

  11. Quality of second gen directly mirrors their parents. The Khalistani types who moved to Canada en masse in 80s and 90s with fake asylum claims were primarily nothing but thugs in their Punjabi pinds who found a new heaven in Canada.

    So now their children are in teens and what can we expect of these guys whose parents were terr0rists? Same with desis in Brit. Unlike US where due to strict immigration rules only cream migrated and even the non-skilled cabbies etc are inspired to follow their educated lot and make sure that their children become educated. But with Khalistani folks there is no drive no nothing – why bother when you can milk Canadian tax payers? So these guys continue their pind habits in Canada. Same thing applies directly to Tamil immigrants as well – just see how the community has gained noterity in the streets of Toronto – after all if your dad was some LTTE thug how can you expect the kid to be different?

  12. “oh nothing… i might have a biz trip over and someone suggested i check that out just for kicks – i hope we’re still on for your trip to the big smoke – lingus was kind enough to send out an invite for a little soiree the other day… this photo is not she, but a good time was had by all.”

    LOL – okay – I can suggest better places, for food anyways. Next time you post, link to your blog so I can send you my email addie and read your stories with hyphens galore. Enough with hijacking this thread! 😉

    Re: divorce rates in Canada….. Have not observed a high rate, or anything that stands out as alarming. But this does incite inspection of other family issues: I recall some domestic violence issues being discussed amongst my mom and her friends. I don’t think this was confined to the punjabi community…. it was sadly far to prevalent in many South Asian communities. Girlfriends would come over for chai with bruises hidden on their arms. Ugh… while a supportive bunch of woman, and it was great to talk about it, they felt very powerless to do anything about it. That can’t be good for the women or their kids who have to witness such violence. So, while the parents may be hard-working, there are alot of hidden family dynamics that adversely affect their kids. Again, not confined to South Asian households – there is definitely more at play here than this. I suspect some family issues as well as external factors such as history, discrimination, isolation as well. It’s not going to be simple to pinpoint any one thing, but I’m glad to hear that the Vancouverites are starting to open up to the discussion.

  13. Getting into a fight with a stranger is never a good idea, but it can be fatal now that guns are becoming an increasingly common fashion accessory for some young men.

    funny… reminded me of last weekend. I was coming off a concert last saturday and walking up yonge street. feeling very mellow and just in my little groove. a guy walking past calls out. I didnt register. Kept walking till I am a few strides ahead and then he calls again
    “me”, I turn back.
    “yes you”.
    “me!!”, I’m not registering, a little wine goes a long way with me.
    “yes you, cant you listen”.
    I dont like his tone and I turn to go.
    “hey you!! are you disrespecting me”.
    WTF. “Huh!”, I half-turn.
    “Are you disrespecting me? Do you want me to smack your face?”, he’s now walking towards me.
    “You little weedy toad”, I think and am not sure whether to kick his ass or walk away.
    “I’m going to take you out, you mo* fu*”.
    Ohkay… turn around, and walk away fast.
    The guy mouths some more crap, but I keep walking. Fast. Keep an eye on the reflections in the side windows
    Soon, am out of hearing.
    What was it? Drugs, drink? Whatever.
    On my part, I dont have anything left to prove and felt ok walking away. My point to you guys. Choose your battles. the insidious ones without the overt aggressor are the ones I’d save my energy for.

  14. Mexican Americans do worse on standardized tests the more generations they’ve been in the US

    be a little cautious of these numbers. it has been recently pointed out that “4th generation mexican americans” are a tiny and peculiar class (probably hispanos from new mexico for example). also, i suspect that assimilated individuals of part mexican ancestry re-classify as non-hispanic white a lot of the time, so those “left behind” with mexican identities tend to be the “losers” to speak (i had a friend whose father was mexican american and mother non-hispanic, and his father had succeeded as a CPA and neither of the kids had a latino identity. his cousins still lived in the “barrio”).

    also, people, check out statistics canada. lots of interesting data in there (though perhaps some of you find it too “boring” 🙂

  15. I lived in the UK (both in London, Birmingham and the North of England) for 29 years before moving to Vancouver 2.5 years ago. I am a Punjabi Sikh.

    There is a difference between the Sikh communities in Vancouver and London. (I won’t talk about Sikhs in Birmingham and northern english towns).

    I would say there are more young Sikhs in London who are upwardly mobile—working their way up the career ladder—whether it be in investment banking, accountancy, law, medicine or teaching.

    In Vancouver, there are less opportunities in the financial sector. You can also make good money here doing things like driving trucks and building houses! As a result you find less Sikhs here in the professions and more of them doing working-class jobs.

    Another major industry here is hashish (dope, marijuana). It’s much easier to make money selling drugs here than it is in the UK. In Vancouver, the hemp plant grows well and the price of the drug is much higher in the US and the cost of transporting the stuff over the border is very low (it takes 40 mins to get to the border from Vancouver of u r slow). So alot of Vancouver people make money sellings drugs to the Americans. And it’s not just Sikhs. Every community has members in this ‘business’. I don’t think there are too many people growing hemp in the UK for export to other countries—the stuff does not grow so well and transport costs are much higher. In the UK it’s not such a great business to be in.

    So, it has very little to do with culture. Take a place where professional opportunities aren’t that great, and where it’s easy to make money smuggling drugs. Guess what happens? Surprise, surprise, you get less investment bankers and more gangsters.

    As I think Bill Clinton once said—it’s the economy stupid ;).

  16. “This poll only reinforces the belief I had since I was a kid in Vancouver. The media in Vancouver – especially the two main newspapers – were always quick to emphasize the negative stories about Indo-Canadians, Punjabis, or Sikhs. More often than not, such stories end up on the front page. Come Baisakhi or another story that might put the brown in a bright light, and the story was buried on page B15.”

    Untrue. Vancouver/Canadian media plays up multiculturalism almost too much (see Neil Bisoondath’s ‘Cult of Multiculturalism’ for more on that, not that i completely agree with it) or at least a lot so Chinese New Year’s and the like get their share of front page or major spotlight for sure.

    “So, it has very little to do with culture. Take a place where professional opportunities aren’t that great, and where it’s easy to make money smuggling drugs. Guess what happens?”

    Agree/disagree. The weed culture and industry in Vancouver is big, as most know. Its funny though, i tell this to newcomers all the time (im a Vancouverite) that we’re really strict on booze but easy on weed.

    A good comparison would be between the Tamil community in Toronto and London, I think (the Tigers were just officially classified by our gov as a terrorist group, btw:http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/04/10/tamils-terror-designation.html) Its obvious who’s got their neck up more in the bad stuff, ya?

    I had a friend come live in Vancouver from San Diego (filipina, i’m a nipper) and hanging out in the (yellow) asian scene here, she said she had never seen so many young heads driving the bimmers and blinging it out. I had friends in highschool or just out of it making large dollars off the bat. It is very available as an opportunity here in Vancouver. Right now, the violence is worse (more guns, etc) but younger too (though Im sure there is a comparable trend in North American in general). But there are def more kids packin around these days.

    It seems like the (east) Asian gang thing in Vancouver has really simmered over the last decade. Back in the late 80s/early 90s it was more the Chinese and Vietnamese gangers that made more the headlines but today is the browd dudes. And aside from the media spotlight, it IS a problem and issue here. There have been tons of shootings and busts and shit going on in that scene. Of course, the media is there to let everyone know about it but it cannot be denied that it is going on and is a hotter point that normal.

    The Vietnamese, dont worry though, are still making the news alot with the (weed) grow-ops.

    The one thing that seems shady with the media though is that unless the white boys in crime are making headlines are Hells Angels (which is just as big if not a bigger media hot issue than the bad brown people), they are never written up in the news as “an Anglo-Canadian male” or “white Canadian,” obviously.

    But if the perpetrators are of “color,” as if its not obvious enough from the name, it is commonly added that he/she is an, yeah, Indo-Canadian or whatever. I actually challenged a writer from the Province (1 of the 2 main newspapers in Vancouver) about the fact that a friend of a shot (brown) victim had his ethnicity also mentioned though (he was Egyptian). I suggested to the writer that if she just throwing the war on terror thing on top for good measure. She denied it but agreed that the subject of mentioning the ethnicity of a individual in a crime should be discussed.

    But as far as reps/images go, maybe the media effects the older peoples more but “on the street” or with the younger crowd, the rep of unruliness is well earned for the many crews of big, loud, tight shirted, Crown Royal downin (my drink of choice too ;p) dudes out and about on the town.

    Its even hit Whistler, the ski resort 2 hours north of Vancouver. Lots of urbanites from the city go up to party in Whistler (its like our weekend in Vegas place) and all but the brown heads have been bringing the flyin fists and not to mention guns up there, which is pretty unheard of.

    Ask any bouncers up there if they’ve had to deal with any of that. The girl friends are commonly sneekin the pieces in da club aswell.

    But when it comes to the brothels, human trafficing and sex slavery, its still us yellow folk synonomous for that. Bad driving: us, fake injury claims off bad driving: you guys. ;p

  17. “I don’t think the problems in the Indo-Canadian community are due to old processes. The issue of Indo-Canadian crime in BC is a newer issue, I’d say it was only in the 90’s when these things started popping up. Indo-Canadians were not always ghettoized either.

    I agree that there’s a cultural dynamism but I doubt it’s connected to any deeper or a longer lasting cultural memory. Its much newer than that and I don’t know how much its got to do with a broader past.

    A lot of these are just really out of line teenage boys who need to be put into line. I think some of them are unaware of consequences. Their parents were for the most part people who did not get on the wrong side of the law and worked hard and the goal was always for their kids to be respectful of laws and get educations.”

    The thing about the teenage kids and the early 20s crowd is true (and the same within the east asian gang scene here). Its always the young heads shooting up the clubs or packin to it or doing all the really public stupid shit. The older, more veteran gangers usu. are more about the “business” and stray from the petty shit (more). The young ones are the ones you gotta watch out for, the ones who are out to make their reps.

    But while the parents not being from the wrong side of the law is most likely true, all the trouble makers making the news usu. still live with their parents.

  18. “I have another question for the Canadians on this thread. I have always had the impression that the divorce rate among South Asians is higher in Canada than in the U.S., especially in Western Canada. Is there any truth to this or is this a false impression? Are there more “broken homes” in the Vancouver area that might contribute to this?”

    Its my impression that Asian marriages (brown and yellow) are the least likely to divorice, which I’m assuming is similar in Canada and the States, because its looked down upon more in Asian culture as opposed to the quick draw MacGraw, divorcing white folk.

  19. “According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.

    Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Indian/East Indian” the newspaper reported March 16.

    By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.””

    You also have to keep in mind that “Indian/East Indian” and “Asian/Oriental”s are the 2 biggest ethnic groups here in Vancouver. Most Vancouverites dont fear the brothas and vatos because there are very little here.

  20. “According to the Vancouver Sun, Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists.

    Of those in the poll who held ethnic groups most responsible, 56 per cent specifically identified “Indian/East Indian” and 45 per cent listed “Indian/East Indian” the newspaper reported March 16.

    By comparison, five per cent of the same group singled out “Caucasian/white” and only one per cent were worried about “Afro-American/Black,” “Middle Eastern/Arabs/Muslims” and “Italians.””

    You also have to keep in mind that “Indian/East Indian” and “Asian/Oriental”s are the 2 biggest ethnic groups here in Vancouver. Most Vancouverites dont fear the brothas and vatos because there are very little here.

    There is a sizable Persian community here though and there have been a couple media episodes surrounding some shoot-ups within that.

  21. “Quality of second gen directly mirrors their parents. The Khalistani types who moved to Canada en masse in 80s and 90s with fake asylum claims were primarily nothing but thugs in their Punjabi pinds who found a new heaven in Canada.

    So now their children are in teens and what can we expect of these guys whose parents were terr0rists? Same with desis in Brit. Unlike US where due to strict immigration rules only cream migrated and even the non-skilled cabbies etc are inspired to follow their educated lot and make sure that their children become educated. But with Khalistani folks there is no drive no nothing – why bother when you can milk Canadian tax payers? So these guys continue their pind habits in Canada. Same thing applies directly to Tamil immigrants as well – just see how the community has gained noterity in the streets of Toronto – after all if your dad was some LTTE thug how can you expect the kid to be different?”

    This is interesting (though I cant comment on the demographics of Punjabi migration to Vancouver of the years).

    But with the Tamils in Toronto, compared to that of the Tamil community in London say, yeah, i heard an interesting story about that (from a very famous Tamil girl that you guys have talked on occasion here). She said that growing up in London, all the young kids wanna be like Jamaicans or adopt the Jamaican patois and all that.

    But when she was in Toronto (which also has a huge Caribbean community aswell and im sure still are thought of as the down ones), some people told her that there are kids that go around saying that they are “like Tamils” or that “yo, i feel that cuz i’m like a tamil” or that they’re “tamil at heart.”

    That is quite interesting to me aswell because though the Tamil community in Vancouver is very small, nobody is remotely saying that or about “being down like brown” or whatever. The only real influence on young, street culture like that is naturally hip hop/black steez.

  22. …and sorry for jackin this thread like that but as a vancouver head thats been following this kind a thing for a while, had quite a few things to say about it. hope yall dont mind.

  23. The difference between American desis and Canadian desis is almost inconsequential compared to the difference between these two and British desis.

    Really? Tell us about those differences Abhi. I’d be really interested to know.

  24. The difference between American desis and Canadian desis is almost inconsequential compared to the difference between these two and British desis.

    British (South) Asians aren’t a culturally-homogeneous group, especially these days, and there are marked differences between the various sub-groups with regards to the levels of both integration and assimilation, so it’s a good idea not to generalise. It also depends very much on where one lives, along with “class” issues.

    Overall, however, I would say that British Indians at least are comparatively less westernised in some of their attitudes compared to our cousins over in the US. But again, this varies according to location, the occupation & mindset of the parents, the specific “community” the 2nd-Generation person belongs to (and in many cases this varies according to caste too — amongst Gujaratis, for example, Shahs are markedly more liberal than Patels, at least with regards to the people I’ve met), and their occupation.

    You can’t necessarily compare the children of (for example) Bombay-educated doctors now living in London, with the children of working-class immigrants from some village in Pakistan who now live all the way up in Bradford or Blackburn.

  25. You also have to keep in mind that “Indian/East Indian” and “Asian/Oriental”s are the 2 biggest ethnic groups here in Vancouver. Most Vancouverites dont fear the brothas and vatos because there are very little here.

    Yeah there are 2-3 times as many South Asians as blacks in Toronto as well.

    I bet if you did the poll in Toronto, Quebec, Pararies you would get different results for each place.

    Toronto it would be Jamaicans. Quebec it would be the Biker gangs. In the Pararies it would be the Natives.

    Keep in mind that Canadian cities like Toronto (1.3) have lower homocide rates than American [i]states[/i] like Utah (1.8) and far lower than comparable American cities (Chicago: 23.3).

    Also I have always had the impression, perhaps false, that desi politicians in Canada primarily go after desi votes. Is this not true? I am contrasting this with a say, Bobby Jindal.

    Ujjal Dosanjh was served as the premier of British Colombia. Sikhs and Tamils are well represented in the parliament, other South Asians not so much.

    That said there is a serious problem with crime in among South Asian Canadians.

    There is a division between groups that immigrated mainly as asylum seekers and those that immigrated as skilled workers.

    I don’t know if asylum seekers that are the problem, example desis from Africa tend to be well off.

  26. Ahh forget all this blah blah about assimilation and integration and racism and colonialism. Me thinks its all about IQ. Always suspected the Jatts have low IQs. It must be all the sarso ka saag they eat. Wait, I eat that also. Must be something else then.

    Hey, I mean Eh Razib – Can you do a regression analysis to prove that all the problems with Jatto-Vancouverians is because of their low IQs?

    Also, Calgary is too cold, always shrinks my privates. But they have the damn oil. Grrr.. Brrr

  27. There is a division between groups that immigrated mainly as asylum seekers and those that immigrated as skilled workers.
    . You can also make good money here doing things like driving trucks and building houses! As a result you find less Sikhs here in the professions and more of them doing working-class jobs.

    i’ll put my hand up here and say that i disagree on this direction. i do not see anything wrogn with people making good money driving trucks and building houses – there is more money and self-respect doing that as a truck-owner operator than with a 9-5 job with a bank.
    i keep hitting this again and again. “ethnic” communities are societies within themselves. the problems we see are teething problems that the community must step up on… with the Canadian model (at least in my mind) it is possible to have free-standing, self-sustaining societal structures to facilitate the development and growth of the sub-communities -the first step in this direction is to get the merchants and vendors catering ot the community (in place) – the next level (the burning need of the hour) is the npo’s and the social workers from within the community – at the next level (the dishoom’s, M!M!M!- this is neha‘s forte, look up her blog ) we have the entertainers etc. each tier keeps as its core market the particular community… and from there the offerings of these tiers percolate to the broader canadian society.
    i see trees of green.

  28. I’ve spent approx. 15 years in Vancouver growing up, and now 3 years here in San Francisco. The Indo-Canadian violence (not to excuse the media) is of higher visibility most of the time because of the magnitude of the act. Yes caucasians are involved in crimes, and to a high degree, but I would assume that these crimes would be bank robberies, attempted kidnappings, house break-ins. These such acts don’t stick to the mind of residents as do the large police forces that surround a house grow-op is taking place, a club where a person or persons have been shot. Oriental south asians are more involved with the grow-op crimes as well as that of prostitution. Whilst sikhs and fijian first generation indians are involved with the trafficing of drugs and settling disputes that have derived from the prior through killings. Yes I point out sikhs and fijians, because they are the largest numbers of south asians in the lower mainland, and given so don’t have the greatest need to assimilate with the larger society at hand. I being part of neither of them, found myself in a multi-cultural group since elementary school. Unlike here in the bay area where the stigma of being south asian is that you hold an engineering job, and an expensive house on the hills, being generalized as “south asian” in Vancouver means you are sikh, who are better known for the violence over the last 15 years. Having said that it takes much away from some of the greatest achievements of South Asians in Vancouver, from government to healthcare (doctors, nurses and (where almost 50% of UBC’s medical student body is made of south asians)) .

    Abhi as for divorce rates, in my 3 years here in the bay area I have found the reverse to be true. Like a prior reader said, divorce is still frowned upon the south-asian society in Vancouver. I actually have not heard of or known many divorces in the community. This is also partly attributed because the punjabi household is still like that of back in India, where you move in (if you are the bride) to your husband’s household where his family lives. There is also the fact that many south asian women though might be educated have a financial dependency wto their husbands. Here in the bay area, the number of divorcees seem much higher, and I would think its because here there is much more independence given that there is no family ties, that domestic violence is less tolerated, and that financially women are more independent as well.

    One last thought even thought it might sound too generalized is that in the US you have a menlting pot system, while in Canada what you have a hand is a Mosaic.

  29. “The Indo-Canadian violence (not to excuse the media) is of higher visibility most of the time because of the magnitude of the act. “

    • Yeah, thats what I was saying aswell (and how the hell do you quote lines on here like everyone else?). In Vancouver anyhow, not like the media wont play it up at the same time but if they didnt have anything to play up in the first place…..right? Its kinda like that Digital Underground part in that old school anti-gang song “We’re all in the Same Gang:” “Other races, they say we act like rats in cage, I try to argue but check it, every night in the news, we prove those suckers right and I got the blues.”

    “There is a division between groups that immigrated mainly as asylum seekers and those that immigrated as skilled workers”

    • Naw, disagree pretty much with that. Perhaps between the parents coming over here but the kids/second generationers on, are pretty much all in the same boat I think.

    “Yeah there are 2-3 times as many South Asians as blacks in Toronto as well. I bet if you did the poll in Toronto, Quebec, Pararies you would get different results for each place. Toronto it would be Jamaicans. Quebec it would be the Biker gangs. In the Pararies it would be the Natives.”

    • I’m not sure about the actual numbers of South Asians compared to black it Toronto but its def the young black kids who are the media button there right now. There was a hugely publicized shooting in Toronto on Queen’s street (or the main shopping strip) on f’in Boxing Day as everyone was BD shopping amongst young the young little ‘gangtas.’ I’m not sure in about the South Asian community right now in TO but the blacks are putting together proprams and working with the city, etc to try and cool this shit down, just like amongst the South Asian scene here in Vancouver.

    Like I said before, i think it was the east Asians gangers that were looked at as more of ‘the gang problem’ here in Vancouver in the late 80s/early 90s but I cant recall it ever got to a point where the community had to get together with the specific anti-violence programs, etc. Its not like the little Vietnamese and other (east) Asian (“Asian” refers to the east/south east Asians here in Vancouver) kids, etc arent packin their guns around town and doing stupid shit but all of the major shooting incidents in Vancouver over the past few years have def been within the brown scene more and we’re talkin like major, public, day light even incidents.

    But, it may be debatable as to who is getting more coverage between the brown gangers and the Angels here though.

  30. Ok let me preface that I lived in Vancouver most of my life, lived in Toronto for years and am now among the yanks in NY.

    Vancouver Indians are quite unique than the rest of Canada and the US. The only other city to rival the number of Indians in Vancouver, would be Toronto. However the major difference is the makeup of the Indian mix. In Vancouver it is predominantly Punjabi, and of that Sikh, and of that Jatt. In Toronto & NY – the South Asian community is a mix of religions, North, South, religions, caste what have you – no one group can dominate the city – however in pockets there are dominant cultures at play.

    Within the Sikh community in Vancouver, there is definately a generational problem. The parents are generally good people, they work hard and try to do the best for the kids, and yet they have no idea what is going on in their lives. For the most part, most were land/farm owners where land status, not education is pushed. As well the overwhelming joy at having sons prevail so that they do shower their sons with all sort of attention, toys, cars etc.. sacrificing themselves for their sons – this in & itself is not so horrible. It is just that these kids are not doing anything to deserve this besides being born male? Now this is nothing new it’s been going on for years.. what has changed in the local scene is the drug scene in Vancouver. You have a situation where there is now “work” that can give them the sense of power, money and prestige without having to do real work. Those who are not doing the drug trade, still benefit by the halo effect of looking like the desi thugs/goondas out there – and when you are in a culture/community that supports this, even naively, then it can & wil flourish .

    As for the Toronto Tamil community – there is something similar at work in terms of the young men doing similar things. However the reason the Vancouver Tamil community is not the same, is primarily based on origin. Toronto’s Tamil community is overwhelmingly Srilankan and ties to the Tigers are prevalent in the media, slang & culture. Vancouver’s Tamil/South Indian community from India is miniscule and overshadowed by the large Punjabi Sikh culture which why you would not hear similar vernacular.

    I personally attribute that when any culture is large enough to not have to climatize be it in Vancouver, London, NY, Houston etc.. -the results are the culture is insulated from the free market of ideas that prevent it from having a dialogue and improving the community at large. This is no different than what some US cities face with their African American/Latino young men as well.

  31. In the U.S. it has been my experience while growing up that if you, for example, tell an Indian friend that you are headed to an all-Indian party on a Friday night, you are frowned upon a bit.

    But…thatÂ’s terrible! Does this not cause some kind of backlash? DonÂ’t people end up strangely prejudiced against a type of party just because they donÂ’t want to seem like they donÂ’t like other types of parties? If peer pressure makes people party elsewhere then does it not also cause people to have all-Indian parties in the first place? What I’m saying is, this sort of subtle forcing of assimilation can’t be all good and having said that it can’t be any better than the peculiar concentration of the Indo-Canadian population in metropolitan peripheries.

    Lower incomes are twice as likely to be seen among visible minorities (including Canadian-born) than Canadians of European decent. Lack of educational/employment opportunities, discrimination, poverty, physical or emotional abuse at home, rigid patriarchal value systems are all involved in turning kids to violence and gangs. Many Indo-Canadians suffer from these factors but to say they do so more than their American counterparts or even their Canadian visible minority counterparts is a gross miscalculation. On average, across all Canadians, male youth from all ethnic minority groups are at higher risk of joining youth gangs. I hardly think this is a Canada-specific reality.

    Also, damn I can’t believe it took 70+ comments for someone to say “mosaic”!

  32. Some numbers on the difference between Vancouver and Toronto Punjabis (sometimes using religion as a proxy — not singling out Sikhs).

    –20% of Toronto Sikhs have university degrees, while only 13% of Vancouver Sikhs do.

    –11% of Toronto Sikhs speak no English or French compared with 14% of Vancouver Sikhs

    With respect to “ghettos”, according to this paper:

    In 2001, South Asians in Toronto lived in neighbourhoods where on average 20.2% of the population were South Asians; the number was 24.7% in Vancouver.

    Not much difference. But:

    the rapid expansion of visible minority neighbourhoods was primarily the result of a large population increase through immigration …. Only among South Asians in Vancouver and Montréal did an increase in population share contribute to less than half of the rise in the exposure index.”

    Same level of segregation, different reasons.

    On divorce

    — 2.8% of Vancouver South Asians are divorced versus 2.3% in Toronto.

    — 2.2% of Vancouver Sikhs are divorced, versus 2.0% in Toronto

    Seems irrelevant.

    Abhi wrote:

    Really? What is the Indian population on Canada? I know in the U.S. it will be coming up on 3 million by the end of the decade.

    Don’t be dense. Canada is one tenth the size of the US. Canada’s 1m South Asians (not Indians) are proportionately three times more important than in the USA. We’re also the second biggest non-white group (projected to be number 1 in 2017) — which garners positive and negative attention.

    To stop the pissing match — USA Desis are wonderful people. Most of my family is American. But they’ll never be more than a proportionately tiny minority. Canadian Desis are also wonderful. But they face totally different national challenges because of their proportionate size.

  33. arosebyanyothername: “As for the Toronto Tamil community – there is something similar at work in terms of the young men doing similar things. However the reason the Vancouver Tamil community is not the same, is primarily based on origin. Toronto’s Tamil community is overwhelmingly Srilankan and ties to the Tigers are prevalent in the media, slang & culture. Vancouver’s Tamil/South Indian community from India is miniscule and overshadowed by the large punjabi Sikh culture which why you would not hear similar vernacular.”

    I’ll agree that a similar affect is taking place within Toronto’s Tamil Community, but its not due to the same circumstances or even within the same generational gap. What is happening in Toronto yiels similar endings which are Gang shootings. These Gang shootings though arise from a struggle that has immigrated with the community, and a community which is much younger at least by 1.5 from that of the Punjabi community. Its is also stemmed from the difference in support for what is happening back in Sri-Lanka. In my mind you can’t compare what is happening in Vancouver and Toronto, they don’t arise from the same necessity.

    As for Vancouver, having grown up there and watched the formation of the south indian societies, I can tell you that Sri-Lankans still outnumber south indians in the tamil communities. The reason that they (SLTs) aren’t as involved in violence is that the community is older (having immigrated as long as 35-40 years ago), they are more multicultural in their relations with the community, and most of them belong professional class. Even within the newer immigrants al group you will find them to be a more toned down crowd, young families wanting to educate their children and bring them up peacefully. Even though tiger suuport is existent I assume its done on the down-lo as it is not supported by the larger tamil society as a whole.

  34. Don’t be dense. Canada is one tenth the size of the US. Canada’s 1m South Asians (not Indians) are proportionately three times more important than in the USA. We’re also the second biggest non-white group (projected to be number 1 in 2017) — which garners positive and negative attention.

    Ikram, stop getting your knickers in bunch. I really didn’t have a clue as to the population (Indian/or South Asian) of Canada. I was asking and not being sarcastic. Again, except for two people who insist this is a pissing match I don’t see it.

  35. I agree, Abhi, there is no piss match going on here. Just a great exchange of views, really, some super commentary going on in this thread.

    And in the same spirit, the 2017 projected population numbers state a figure of 1.8 millions South Asians in Canada, about 1 million of those living in Toronto. Ontario would have 57% while BC would have 20% out of Canada’s total visible minority population. 75% of all visible minorities would be living in Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal. By 2017, 1 in 5 Canadians would be a visible minority, 1 in 4 would be foreign-born, half of the entire visible minority population will be either South Asian or Chinese, Canada will officially change its name to “Big Little Indo-China”, and SM will open a 2nd headquarters buried within the Canadian Rockies.

  36. I’ll agree that a similar affect is taking place within Toronto’s Tamil Community, but its not due to the same circumstances or even within the same generational gap. What is happening in Toronto yiels similar endings which are Gang shootings. These Gang shootings though arise from a struggle that has immigrated with the community, and a community which is much younger at least by 1.5 from that of the Punjabi community. Its is also stemmed from the difference in support for what is happening back in Sri-Lanka.

    I’m not sure how you came to any of these conclusions. Gang violence in the Tamil community in Toronto has dropped off considerably since the early 00’s. It’s still an issue but it’s nowhere near as bad as it was 10 years ago. Arrests, jailings and deportations have cut out the criminal element from the community. I’m not saying that all problems have been eliminated, but the high-profile gang wars aren’t an ongoing problem.

    I don’t think the issues that the Tamil community has faced/is facing are long term. They have more to do with adjusting to a new culture/country after being displaced suddenly and often violently. A lot of people can’t get their degrees recognized, they work long hours at menial jobs, extended family networks are broken up, kids are left unsupervised and directionless… it creates an environment where the types of problems were talking about arise. Just anecdotally, i’ve seen it improving a lot lately. There are still the wannabe gangster elements but it’s not as bad as it was and it seems to be getting better.

    As for the LTTE talk, I was never aware of any connection between the gangs and the Tigers. At a talk I went to once, Bob Rae said he believed the culture of violence fostered by the tigers was one of the factors that influenced the violence in the tamil community here… beyond that, I dont know how they factor in.

    I can’t speak for the Punjabi community in Vancouver because I don’t know it at all. The circumstances by which different groups came to the country do seem to be especially important though.

  37. Ananthan :- Mostly they are my own put together beliefs and assumptions not conclusions. We are not on different pages, you being in TO have a better insight to what is currently happening there, and it was actually great to read your post and be educated on the current situ. My view is from that of someone living on the other side of the country and hearing on first accounts about the events that take place, and comparing it to what was happening in my own back yard Vancouver.

    “I don’t think the issues that the Tamil community has faced/is facing are long term. They have more to do with adjusting to a new culture/country after being displaced suddenly and often violently.”

    Exactly what I meant to convey with saying that it is something they immigrated with specially given the circumstances in SL. Its not the adjusting to a new culture that is where it stemmed from but the violent situation that has caused their necessity to immigrate.

    The decrease in violence as you mentioned in TO in the Early ’00 (although it is 2006, still seems like yesterday) is great news, and I honestly hope it diminishes soon, having left 3 years ago I haven’t actually been aware of this. Unlike SL Tamils, the problem in Vancouver can’t be as easily erradicated. Punjabi’s are not as easily scared off by jailings and arrests, and deportation is not a valid method given that most if not all involved are Canadian born.

  40. Neha – great idea about creating a second SM bunker in the Rockies. I hereby submit my nomination to take on this dangerous mission. (You don’t want any American desi taking it on, they’d stick out way too much…)

  41. i hope you all realize, that all ye who post on this blog, yer names are being taken down for the grand get together this summer. badmash is prominent by his absence tho’, and me wonders if all’s ok. calgary represent!

  42. Here is a great site if you are looking for info on various south asian communities in Canada. Listed in order of estimated population – Sikhs Tamils Pakistanis Indo-Caribbeans Gujaratis Bangladeshis Afgans Maharashtrians

    shite. they missed me 😉 bwahaha… up yours multiculturalcanada.ca – ekla chalo re or die trying.

  43. Neha – great idea about creating a second SM bunker in the Rockies.

    There can be only one bunker. There can however be additional bureau offices and bureau chiefs as needed.

  44. There can however be additional bureau offices

    i believe that should be “There can however be additional bureaux” – and so it was rapped in my head with a large stick by a certain Mrs Cherian, or was it Mrs Mbogo.

  47. pjf,

    thank you for the obvious…….next time try to bring somethng more useful to the discussion please…other than your hatred for your ancestry and the perpetual sense of doom at having been born a punjabi/jatt or whatever….

    needless to say the gangs have their origins in the psycho-social mechanics of the punjabi(specifically sikh) community but we are trying to find an answer and ultimately,a solution here…….as with many other things,your posts add nothing more than a constant irritating ‘i didnt do it’ refrain.

    gang, i am sorry to have acted out…just came home from a torrid day at work and needed to vent.

  50. I don’t hate my ancestry, I’m just frustrated with people of my background who do stupid things and give everyone a bad name